Salaam O Rachel* Salaam

stuka #51:

[...It is a fact, Hamas and Shas feed of each other...]

:)

...we can even speculate that hamas is a `plant` in the palestinian side so the extremist israelis can get away with....;)

when i asked you to show me an official and final map of the state of israel ( # 44) i was not being facetious...their zio-nazi greed has no limits...that is why i oppose zionism and not judaism...

rgds,

t

Sadna: Very true. The peace groups in Israel have always tended to be apologetic. Now, even though the settlements did keep on growing, the Oslo accords called for a roll back of certain settlements. That would have resulted in the Intra Israeli moment of reckoning that is over due, and the delay of which helps only the rightists by allowing them to change the facts on the ground.

There is no doubt that the Isreali right was unhappy with the progress of Oslo. Which is all the more reason the Palestenians should have kept the peace when Sharon made the provocative move of visitng the Dome of the Rock. But the Palestenians played right in to the hands of Sharon and the right, first by rejecting Oslo, second..by not even saying ok..let us keep talking, we will come up with a counter proposal..and then by being provoked to violence by Sharon.

It is a fact, Hamas and Shas feed of each other.

stuka
Re willingness of assorted Palestinians to negotiate

You had mentioned Ehud Barak earlier. The fact is that even during Barak`s time, settlements were allowed to increase. My understanding is that there is a `fundamentalist Israeli` line on the subject of settlements which no recent Israeli leader has had the guts to face down, which creates a problem of trust between them and even moderate Palestinians.

Temporal:

``specifically the `expansionsit` face of zionism that i oppose... ``

Am with you 100%. The fundamentalist settlers are as much an enemy of Israel as Hamas. An Israel limited to it`s pre 1967 border should be a final Israel. Without a reverse migration of settlers though.

Faisaluno:


``effi eitam is a member of the current israeli cabinet whose party (nrp) advocates ethnic cleansing of Palestinians (there are no arabs in the cabinet despite the fact that about 20% of the pop of proper israel is arab. ``

And we have Bal Thackeray. Unfortunate but true. However, Effi Eitam, being a member of Parliament and Cabinet, cannot dictate his views. Regardless of his views, if the government of Israel makes a deal, people like Eitam will fall in line.

``members of your beloved gop in moments of unguarded ness have also voiced support for these proposals. (dick armey on hard ball and donald rumsfeld during a press conference).``

The GOP has it`s share of idiots who are more loyal than the Israeli king.


``so if it is acceptable for these people to have say in the future of palestine, then it is also acceptable for the likes of hamas to have a seat on the table as well.``

You just proved my point. Hamas can share a table yes, but it has to be willing to negotiate with Israel. Hamas has constantly decried negotiations. Right wing Israelis may have their own views, but the state of Isreal talks in one voice in negotiations. If Hamas sends its members to confer with the PLO and the Palestenians offer one voice to the Israelis, then who can object to Hamas? Mind you, the right wing of Israel does not have a ``seat at the table``, the Israeli government does. And regardless of the personal views of the Israeli right, the GOI implicitly recognizes Palestenian statehood. Hamas should do the exact same thing if it wants to participate in dialogue. But it does not, and therefore its participation in dialogue is futile.



willful ignorance of threats posed by likes of effi eitam, avigdor lieberman (another prominent politician in the mold of eitam) and mofaz just proves my point that american administration is extremely one sided in dealing with the issue and people in the rest of the world can see through this hypocrisy.

dost mittar: glad to see you back. I also agree with stuka, and I think this war has the potential not just of freeing the Iraqis, but also of bringing some peace in the middle east. Frankly, after decades of listening to the Arab-Israeli dogfights, I would be glad to see someone put an end to their squabbles so we can focus on something else - like the millions living in poverty around the world about whom I dont see anyone writing any tragic poems.

The sentiment is laudable but it`s surely a perversion to call Rachel Corrie a ``jihadi``

temporal:
Thanks. This war is of course different not only from the first Gulf war but from all other wars. I am surprised to see our friend Stuka defend Bush on this.

#42 by dost-mittar:

welcome back:)

did you notice the difference in this gulf war?...aljazeera is their to provide another perspective...


stuka 43:

(a digressionary thought if you do not mind...ignore this for now...continue your discussion with faisal)

i have nothign against jews....it is the zionist take...specifically the `expansionsit` face of zionism that i oppose...

...show me an `official` and final map of israel

rgds,

t

Faisaluno:

You said:

``also contrary to your assertions, zionism was an european inspired movement. here is what bbc has to say about this: ``

I said:

``I even agree that the leaders, and therefore the public face of Zionism, were predominantly white.
``

Therefore, my assertion is not contrary to yours. However, as I said earlier, the result of Zionism (which I agree was a movement initiated and sponsored by European Jewry) was that middle eastern Jews moved to the nascent state of Israel. In terms of numbers, the middle eastern jews were the majority at the time of the foundation of the state of Israel.

Look, think of Pakistan as a case in point. The intellectual thrust to Pakistan came from Muslims of present day India, but population was dominated by Muslims of Present day Pakistan. In Isreal`s case, the Jews were not from Israel proper, but they were from areas which belonged to Arabs and constitute Arab lands today.

I`ll read the rest of your post at leisure as I have a meeting to go to. Regarding Gandhi, he said some wierd shite, including telling Czechs and English to not fight the Nazis. Pretty inconvenient for them. Gandhi was against partition on religious/communal terms in principle, be it Israel or Pakistan. Therefore to take him as a moral authority would not be correct if you believe in one partition but not the other.

I really don`t understand Americans, who tend to be the most self-righteous moralist people. Don`t they know that the rest of the world regards them, and not Saddam, as the outlaw and a bully? The information is out there everywhere for them to see, anyone who is supporting them, including Blair, is doing so despite massive opposition from his own people. Or do they care only when the American soldiers start returning in boldybags?

#37 faisaluno

I realize that it is convenient to quote Gandhi when it comes to pacifism and the like. But I notice you never quote Gandhi the devout hindu, Gandhi the supporter of cows, Gandhi the believer of Ram Rajya in India. Do you also support these goals? Have you given sheltered a few cows in your home? Do you believe in Ram Rajya?

As for creation of Israel being a European plot, let me ask you the following question: Who created Saudi Arabia? And who gave the bunch of thugs who currently rule it the right to do so?

The answer is well known but will never be discussed by the islamists. Saudi Arabia is a creation of the western colonialists who hand picked out some third-rate tribal leader to be its King. No such country ever existed in the region. I hope you will be joining me in demonstrating against this artificial colonialist creation, this foreign entity, and working to ensure its imminent demise.

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stuka:

effi eitam is a member of the current israeli cabinet whose party (nrp) advocates ethnic cleansing of Palestinians (there are no arabs in the cabinet despite the fact that about 20% of the pop of proper israel is arab. members of your beloved gop in moments of unguarded ness have also voiced support for these proposals. (dick armey on hard ball and donald rumsfeld during a press conference). so if it is acceptable for these people to have say in the future of palestine, then it is also acceptable for the likes of hamas to have a seat on the table as well. willful ignorance of threats posed by likes of effi eitam, avigdor lieberman (another prominent politician in the mold of eitam) and mofaz just proves my point that american administration is extremely one sided in dealing with the issue and people in the rest of the world can see through this hypocrisy.

also contrary to your assertions, zionism was an european inspired movement. here is what bbc has to say about this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/world/2001/israel_and_palestinians/timeline/1897.stm

First Zionist Congress
The First Zionist Congress met in Basle, Switzerland, to discuss the ideas set out in Theodor Herzl`s 1896 book Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State). Herzl, a Jewish journalist and writer living in Vienna, wanted Jews to have their own state - primarily as a response to European anti-Semitism.

The Congress issued the Basle Programme to establish a ``home for the Jewish people in Palestine secured by public law`` and set up the World Zionist Organisation to work for that end.

A few Zionist immigrants had already started arriving in the area before 1897. By 1903 there were some 25,000 of them, mostly from Eastern Europe. They lived alongside about half a million Arab residents in what was then part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire. A second wave of about 40,000 immigrants arrived in the region between 1904 and 1914.``

Also contrary to popular belief, 1967 was started by israel. it was pre-emptive strike against egypt much like the current war. and much like the current war, israeli prime minister made the same claims about bringing democracy to palestenians. here is what bbc has to say on the start of the war:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/world/2001/israel_and_palestinians/timeline/1967.stm

Egypt`s powerful air force was put out of action on the first day of fighting when Israeli jets bombed it on the ground in a pre-emptive strike.

The territorial gains doubled the area of land controlled by Israel. The victory heralded a new age of confidence and optimism for Israel and its supporters. ``

the statement i quoted in my previous post was from that great opponent of european colonialism: one mohands k. gandhi. statement needs to be reapted again:

``I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regarded as an unwarrantable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.``

Here are excrepts of an interview effi eitam, the israeli cabinet minister gave to an israeli newspaper:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=143671&contrassID=2&subContrassID=14&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

``What share will the Egyptians have to contribute?

Sinai. Egypt has to offer the territorial reserves of Sinai for the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. The desirable situation is that the residents of Gaza will get territory in Sinai, and will be able to receive citizenship in a sovereign Palestinian state that will be a two-lobed state. Its central lobe will be Jordan, but it will have another lobe in Sinai.``

_ _ _ ``Do you also foresee a population being drawn from Gaza to Sinai?

``Yes, definitely, without a doubt.``

_ _ _ ``And what will become of the Palestinians in Judea, Samaria and Gaza?

``They will be residents without the right to vote. We have to obtain an interim settlement regarding their status. Not on the status of the territory - on their status. They have to be given a choice between enlightened residency with us or dark citizenship in the Arab states. The Arabs in Judea and Samaria will be able to make a free choice between a situation in which they will be Palestinian citizens who are residents of Israel, or citizens of their country who reside in the Palestinian state in Jordan and Sinai.``

here is part of armey`s statement on hardball which he later retracted:

_ _ _``ARMEY: That`s right...I happened to believe that the
Palestinians should leave.

MATTHEWS: Have you ever told George Bush, the president from
your home state of Texas, that you think the Palestinians should
get up and go and leave Palestine and that`s the solution?

ARMEY: I`m probably telling him that right now.

MATTHEWS: Well, just to repeat, you believe that the
Palestinians who are now living on the West Bank should get out of
there?

ARMEY: Yes.``

More ``freedom`` in J&K. The only good thing to come out this sadness is that local people will understand better who they need ``azadi`` from...


http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Kashmir-Guerrilla-Killed.html

Ex-Guerrilla Leader Assassinated in Kashmir

SRINAGAR, India (AP) -- Abdul Majid Dar, who once headed Kashmir`s biggest guerrilla group Hezb-ul Mujahedeen, was shot and killed Sunday by masked gunmen, police said.

Dar was killed in the town of Sopore, a separatist stronghold 30 miles north of Srinagar, the summer capital of India`s Jammu-Kashmir state.

Dar`s mother and sister were also injured in the shooting, a police official said on condition of anonymity.

Dar was supervising construction work at the site of his new house in Sopore when the gunmen arrived in a car and fired at him, the official said.

Police released no further details. The officer declined to comment on whether police suspect any group for the attack.

Dar was Hezb`s top commander in Indian-controlled Kashmir until two years ago, when the group`s Pakistan-based leader sacked him for offering to hold talks with the Indian government.