Salaam O Rachel* Salaam
Temporal March 20, 2003
#20 Posted by pmishra2 on March 21, 2003 12:43:35 pm
#17 stuka
It is the most nonsensical situation imaginable. We have a modest territorial dispute between the Israelis and Palestinians elevated to a brutal civil war. We have the worst kind of atrocity, the bombing of civilians, passed of as a freedom struggle.
For me the situation became crystal clear after Ehud Barak`s offer was rejected. That was the defining moment for a lot of middle-of-the-road folks --- we understood that if Yasser Arafat could not accept a compromise. Fundamentally, the people behind him do not believe in co-existence.
It is the most nonsensical situation imaginable. We have a modest territorial dispute between the Israelis and Palestinians elevated to a brutal civil war. We have the worst kind of atrocity, the bombing of civilians, passed of as a freedom struggle.
For me the situation became crystal clear after Ehud Barak`s offer was rejected. That was the defining moment for a lot of middle-of-the-road folks --- we understood that if Yasser Arafat could not accept a compromise. Fundamentally, the people behind him do not believe in co-existence.
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#19 Posted by Tipu on March 21, 2003 12:43:35 pm
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#18 Posted by asfand on March 21, 2003 12:43:35 pm
Now I am wondering and I am sure many of you may have the same thoughts:
If an American Civilian got killed by Iraqi Army or any other Army in the world, just imagine how CNN would have been reporting it.
BUT
Since the Israeli Army has the divine right to kill the gentiles including the Americans, CNN and other western news agencies looks at the whole issue as a minor incident.
Just read the NY Times reporting below.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/16/international/16WIRE-MIDE.html
American Protester Killed by Israeli Bulldozer in GazaBy
THE NEW YORK TIMESAZA CITY,
Gaza Strip -- An American woman in Gaza to protest Israeli operations was killed Sunday when she was run over by an Israeli bulldozer, witnesses and hospital officials said. Rachel Corrie, 23, a college student from Olympia, Wash., had been trying to stop the bulldozer from tearing down a building in the Rafah refugee camp, witnesses said. She was taken to Najar hospital in Rafah, where she died, said Dr. Ali Moussa, a hospital administrator. Greg Schnabel, 28, of Chicago, said the protesters were in the house of Dr. Samir Masri. Israeli almost daily has been tearing down houses of Palestinians it suspects in connection with Islamic militant groups, saying such operations deter attacks on Israel such as suicide bombings. ``Rachel was alone in front of the house as we were trying to get them to stop,`` Schnabel said. ``She waved for the bulldozer to stop and waved. She fell down and the bulldozer kept going. We yelled, `Stop, stop,` and the bulldozer didn`t stop at all. It had completely run over her and then it reversed and ran back over her.`` Witnesses said Corrie was wearing a brightly colored jacket when the bulldozer hit her. She had been a student at The Evergreen State College in Olympia and would have graduated this year, Schnabel said.
The Israeli military and the U.S. State Department had no immediate comment.
Groups of international protesters have gathered in several locations in the West Bank and Gaza during two years of Palestinian violence, setting themselves up as ``human shields`` to try to stop Israeli operations. Corrie was the first member of the groups, called ``International Solidarity Movement`` and backed by Palestinian groups, to be killed in the conflict. Several activists have been arrested in clashes with Israeli forces, and some have been deported by Israeli authorities. Schnabel said there were eight protesters at the site in Rafah, four from the United States and four from Great Britain. ``We stay with families whose house is to be demolished,`` he told the Associated Press by telephone after the incident. Mansour Abed Allah, 29, a Palestinian human rights worker in Rafah, witnessed the incident. He said the killing should be a message to President Bush, who is ``providing Israel with tanks and bulldozers, and now they killed one of his own people.`` Israel sends tanks and bulldozers into the area almost every day, destroying buildings near the Gaza-Egypt border. The Israelis say Palestinian gunmen use the buildings as cover, and arms-smuggling tunnels dug under the border terminate in the buildings. According to interim peace accords, Israel controls the border area, where there are clashes almost daily between Palestinian gunmen and Israeli soldiers.
If an American Civilian got killed by Iraqi Army or any other Army in the world, just imagine how CNN would have been reporting it.
BUT
Since the Israeli Army has the divine right to kill the gentiles including the Americans, CNN and other western news agencies looks at the whole issue as a minor incident.
Just read the NY Times reporting below.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/16/international/16WIRE-MIDE.html
American Protester Killed by Israeli Bulldozer in GazaBy
THE NEW YORK TIMESAZA CITY,
Gaza Strip -- An American woman in Gaza to protest Israeli operations was killed Sunday when she was run over by an Israeli bulldozer, witnesses and hospital officials said. Rachel Corrie, 23, a college student from Olympia, Wash., had been trying to stop the bulldozer from tearing down a building in the Rafah refugee camp, witnesses said. She was taken to Najar hospital in Rafah, where she died, said Dr. Ali Moussa, a hospital administrator. Greg Schnabel, 28, of Chicago, said the protesters were in the house of Dr. Samir Masri. Israeli almost daily has been tearing down houses of Palestinians it suspects in connection with Islamic militant groups, saying such operations deter attacks on Israel such as suicide bombings. ``Rachel was alone in front of the house as we were trying to get them to stop,`` Schnabel said. ``She waved for the bulldozer to stop and waved. She fell down and the bulldozer kept going. We yelled, `Stop, stop,` and the bulldozer didn`t stop at all. It had completely run over her and then it reversed and ran back over her.`` Witnesses said Corrie was wearing a brightly colored jacket when the bulldozer hit her. She had been a student at The Evergreen State College in Olympia and would have graduated this year, Schnabel said.
The Israeli military and the U.S. State Department had no immediate comment.
Groups of international protesters have gathered in several locations in the West Bank and Gaza during two years of Palestinian violence, setting themselves up as ``human shields`` to try to stop Israeli operations. Corrie was the first member of the groups, called ``International Solidarity Movement`` and backed by Palestinian groups, to be killed in the conflict. Several activists have been arrested in clashes with Israeli forces, and some have been deported by Israeli authorities. Schnabel said there were eight protesters at the site in Rafah, four from the United States and four from Great Britain. ``We stay with families whose house is to be demolished,`` he told the Associated Press by telephone after the incident. Mansour Abed Allah, 29, a Palestinian human rights worker in Rafah, witnessed the incident. He said the killing should be a message to President Bush, who is ``providing Israel with tanks and bulldozers, and now they killed one of his own people.`` Israel sends tanks and bulldozers into the area almost every day, destroying buildings near the Gaza-Egypt border. The Israelis say Palestinian gunmen use the buildings as cover, and arms-smuggling tunnels dug under the border terminate in the buildings. According to interim peace accords, Israel controls the border area, where there are clashes almost daily between Palestinian gunmen and Israeli soldiers.
#17 Posted by stuka on March 21, 2003 9:01:37 am
pmishra2:
This whole story of fighting for freedom is bullshit. These guys do not want Israel to just get out of the occupied territories, the stated aim of Hamas, Islamic Jihad now (and Black September and PFLP and Abu Nidal etc in the 70S) was and remains the detruction of Israel proper.
This whole story of fighting for freedom is bullshit. These guys do not want Israel to just get out of the occupied territories, the stated aim of Hamas, Islamic Jihad now (and Black September and PFLP and Abu Nidal etc in the 70S) was and remains the detruction of Israel proper.
#16 Posted by stuka on March 21, 2003 9:01:25 am
This is Mullah Speak at it`s best:
``I am absolutely disappointed with American people. I think Rachel just tripped and fell in front of a bulldozer. I dont think that they are capable of any noble deed. ``
The above statement is the most honest portrayal of what the Palestenian Hamas supporters think of the US. They are the same who danced on the streets on the 11th of September. How tragic that naive
( and I cannot think of another more appropriate word) Americans are endangering their lives for such scum.
``I am absolutely disappointed with American people. I think Rachel just tripped and fell in front of a bulldozer. I dont think that they are capable of any noble deed. ``
The above statement is the most honest portrayal of what the Palestenian Hamas supporters think of the US. They are the same who danced on the streets on the 11th of September. How tragic that naive
( and I cannot think of another more appropriate word) Americans are endangering their lives for such scum.
#15 Posted by pmishra2 on March 21, 2003 8:37:58 am
Yes, we indians have good experience of your jihadis. We understood full well your attitudes. Ehud Barak had to learn and understand it first hand: now you have Sharon, a person at exactly your level to deal with.
As for this misguided person, who chose to insert herself in the middle of a civil war, well, its a sad story. Is it as sad a story as the hundreds of israeli civilians MURDERED by your jihadi friends??? I don`t think so.
ooops, I forgot, only muslims have any suffering in this world. Everyone elses suffering is irrelevant and even appropriate. Especially jews/hindus/kafirs etc. What can these inferior sub-humans expect?
ugh, what a stench ! It must the hypocrisy and self-righteous oozing out of this article....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20D14F6395B0C758CDDAA0894DB404482
Suicide Bombing on Bus in Israel Leaves 15 Dead
City bus in Haifa, Israel, is torn to shreds by Palestinian suicide bombing; at least 15 passengers are killed, including school children, and more than three dozen others are wounded; survivors say passengers on bus were cross-section of diverse city: children and elderly people, Jews and Arabs
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FB0716FE3D5A0C738DDDAA0894DB404482
Argentine Judge Juan Jose Galeano orders arrest warrants for four Iranian government officials for allegedly helping organize and carry out 1994 bombing of Jewish community center in Buenos Aires that left 85 people dead
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1974009.stm
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has cut short a visit to the United States after a Palestinian suicide bomber killed 15 people and himself near the Israeli city of Tel Aviv.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0lu70
19 people were killed and 74 injured - six seriously - in a suicide bombing at the Patt junction in Jerusalem. The bus, which was completely destroyed, was carrying many students on their way to school. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
http://www.ict.org.il/spotlight/det.cfm?id=665
A suicide bomber detonated a large bomb at a busy train station in the northern Israeli town of Nahariya. The bombing at shortly after 10:50 this morning has so far claimed three lives, though there was some confusion as to whether the count included the suicide bomber. Thirty-one people were reportedly injured.
As for this misguided person, who chose to insert herself in the middle of a civil war, well, its a sad story. Is it as sad a story as the hundreds of israeli civilians MURDERED by your jihadi friends??? I don`t think so.
ooops, I forgot, only muslims have any suffering in this world. Everyone elses suffering is irrelevant and even appropriate. Especially jews/hindus/kafirs etc. What can these inferior sub-humans expect?
ugh, what a stench ! It must the hypocrisy and self-righteous oozing out of this article....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20D14F6395B0C758CDDAA0894DB404482
Suicide Bombing on Bus in Israel Leaves 15 Dead
City bus in Haifa, Israel, is torn to shreds by Palestinian suicide bombing; at least 15 passengers are killed, including school children, and more than three dozen others are wounded; survivors say passengers on bus were cross-section of diverse city: children and elderly people, Jews and Arabs
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FB0716FE3D5A0C738DDDAA0894DB404482
Argentine Judge Juan Jose Galeano orders arrest warrants for four Iranian government officials for allegedly helping organize and carry out 1994 bombing of Jewish community center in Buenos Aires that left 85 people dead
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1974009.stm
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has cut short a visit to the United States after a Palestinian suicide bomber killed 15 people and himself near the Israeli city of Tel Aviv.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0lu70
19 people were killed and 74 injured - six seriously - in a suicide bombing at the Patt junction in Jerusalem. The bus, which was completely destroyed, was carrying many students on their way to school. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
http://www.ict.org.il/spotlight/det.cfm?id=665
A suicide bomber detonated a large bomb at a busy train station in the northern Israeli town of Nahariya. The bombing at shortly after 10:50 this morning has so far claimed three lives, though there was some confusion as to whether the count included the suicide bomber. Thirty-one people were reportedly injured.
#14 Posted by ferozk on March 21, 2003 7:29:40 am
re T:
Just heard the news that an another American peace activist was shot and wounded by Israeli forces near Nablus...
O` the ingratitude!
Ciao
Just heard the news that an another American peace activist was shot and wounded by Israeli forces near Nablus...
O` the ingratitude!
Ciao
#12 Posted by tahmed32 on March 21, 2003 6:38:21 am
nazarhayatkhan #7 I dont think I have seen ARY TV, and from what you describe - two gentlemen discussing islam-kufr jang - looks like I dont need to hurry and watch it either.
This tendancy to think in broad generalizations (in this case, seeing everything in the context of a struggle of competing religious ideologies) is I think a fairly accurate indicator of an individuals intellectual and e emotional capacity. Kind of like an IQ (intelligence quotient) and EQ (emotional quotient) test combined in a single test which we may call the RQ (rationality quotient).
I think one need not do a PhD study to determine that there is a negative correlation between the RQ and GNP per capita. And thus we have ``educated people`` from third world countries talking in meaningless generalities, like the two gentlemen on ARY TV you mentioned. And, in case of muslims and hindus too, as one can see on chowk, in religious terms. Hopefully, over time rationality levels will rise with the spread of education in our societies.
This tendancy to think in broad generalizations (in this case, seeing everything in the context of a struggle of competing religious ideologies) is I think a fairly accurate indicator of an individuals intellectual and e emotional capacity. Kind of like an IQ (intelligence quotient) and EQ (emotional quotient) test combined in a single test which we may call the RQ (rationality quotient).
I think one need not do a PhD study to determine that there is a negative correlation between the RQ and GNP per capita. And thus we have ``educated people`` from third world countries talking in meaningless generalities, like the two gentlemen on ARY TV you mentioned. And, in case of muslims and hindus too, as one can see on chowk, in religious terms. Hopefully, over time rationality levels will rise with the spread of education in our societies.
#11 Posted by tahmed32 on March 21, 2003 6:38:21 am
nazarhayatkhan #7 in the post i just sent, i should have written ``positive correlation`` between rationality and GNP per capita, NOT negative.
#10 Posted by ahmedmadani on March 20, 2003 11:25:12 pm
Some time one is not clear about political poems.Good poem should be spiritual distilation (spiritual cookong), stanzas should be such way there rythum or rhyme and it should touch mind like when beeautiful smiles and you feel slicing you kaleja. I can not comment about content of political theme. I am looking as technician of this political industrial strength tear jurking poetry. Its flop to say most charitable. Recently Ms. Sarwarri had written poerty ( I felt both prose and poerty as consrustion of poem was too crude just like that. It did not feel no poerty no prose some strange animal). But things have changed now a days if poem has rythum it considered backward. Abstract work, revolutionary words . I have even heard to write good poerty good strong coffee and tea helps. I have no experience.
Experience of any body is unique. We in karachian have lost reverence for death and murder. Danny was slaughtered but most are so bad they said all this ``tamasha`` of poem writing for getting good marks in american books. Its possible once so many like shias peacefully in immambarga are slaughter soon we loose sense and we never wright poertry as we do not reserve. Or Mohajir or sindhi in slaugheter in hyderbad can not be , or slaughter by rangers of Mohajirs or drilling by Mohajirs to repair knees or slaughter of women by sindhis for honor do not lead to poerty. As who bothers for poor dirty Mohajirs, sindhis and their killings. ( I am not bringing the plight of biharis or bengali slaughter by our own people) . I am 55 years. I many times get ashamed of young expaks immorality or selective morality in poetry. We are cursed with stone heart about our own people and and soft hearted about slaughter of Americans, Palestanians etc. I work with good guests. I will give example. How we treat our own People.
I met a young american person in our hotel who was student from texas of petroleum. He said he wants data for PhD work. I asked him what reserch he is doing in pakistan. He told me he wants data about some geology or some thing like that. After few days he returned and said vey highly of helping him.
But he said some thing which was eye opening.He said his professor ( EXPAK) could not get any data as our gelogy dept said its secret data and asked crudely get out. So llok how our people treat us.
I hope this will go away when you become expak as then you loose all fear about gora and arab log. As i am told all expak man are having lots of white girls friends. ( They give all conquests and describe details and I literally literally die my hearts gives away just by being so unfortunate struck up in Karachi in airconditioned hotel, As my manager consoled that all in fate) I wonder do expak young girls have many white boy friends must why not? Any way some are lucky dags.
I am in process of written some poerty in Punjabi about Karachi, its violence and heat and Humidity and slow death through when you travel through steaming Busses and through that hell also romance going including bottom pinching and malir water, braeking daabheji pumping plant, quota system so ham brained Punjabi and sindhis can keep mohajirs down. All are 24 poems. They have nice Rhyme. But If I translate in english all charm will be gone. Shah waris or Ghalib all have nice rhyme.
Due to this reason up to now all poems published are not successful as they do not pass minimum requirements. My feeling no Desi can write good poetry in English as Deshi may smoke or drink but still he can not be real white same way. I did not like poem as ther is no POETRY in that.
Experience of any body is unique. We in karachian have lost reverence for death and murder. Danny was slaughtered but most are so bad they said all this ``tamasha`` of poem writing for getting good marks in american books. Its possible once so many like shias peacefully in immambarga are slaughter soon we loose sense and we never wright poertry as we do not reserve. Or Mohajir or sindhi in slaugheter in hyderbad can not be , or slaughter by rangers of Mohajirs or drilling by Mohajirs to repair knees or slaughter of women by sindhis for honor do not lead to poerty. As who bothers for poor dirty Mohajirs, sindhis and their killings. ( I am not bringing the plight of biharis or bengali slaughter by our own people) . I am 55 years. I many times get ashamed of young expaks immorality or selective morality in poetry. We are cursed with stone heart about our own people and and soft hearted about slaughter of Americans, Palestanians etc. I work with good guests. I will give example. How we treat our own People.
I met a young american person in our hotel who was student from texas of petroleum. He said he wants data for PhD work. I asked him what reserch he is doing in pakistan. He told me he wants data about some geology or some thing like that. After few days he returned and said vey highly of helping him.
But he said some thing which was eye opening.He said his professor ( EXPAK) could not get any data as our gelogy dept said its secret data and asked crudely get out. So llok how our people treat us.
I hope this will go away when you become expak as then you loose all fear about gora and arab log. As i am told all expak man are having lots of white girls friends. ( They give all conquests and describe details and I literally literally die my hearts gives away just by being so unfortunate struck up in Karachi in airconditioned hotel, As my manager consoled that all in fate) I wonder do expak young girls have many white boy friends must why not? Any way some are lucky dags.
I am in process of written some poerty in Punjabi about Karachi, its violence and heat and Humidity and slow death through when you travel through steaming Busses and through that hell also romance going including bottom pinching and malir water, braeking daabheji pumping plant, quota system so ham brained Punjabi and sindhis can keep mohajirs down. All are 24 poems. They have nice Rhyme. But If I translate in english all charm will be gone. Shah waris or Ghalib all have nice rhyme.
Due to this reason up to now all poems published are not successful as they do not pass minimum requirements. My feeling no Desi can write good poetry in English as Deshi may smoke or drink but still he can not be real white same way. I did not like poem as ther is no POETRY in that.
#9 Posted by Tipu on March 20, 2003 11:25:12 pm
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#8 Posted by Ras on March 20, 2003 9:48:49 pm
It is the thought that counts very much here.
The silence thus far has been painful.
Ras
#7 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on March 20, 2003 8:34:49 pm
#2 Tahmed32
I entirely agree with your observation. Let us just treat things as good, bad, honest and so on ; and not give a religious slant to it.
I wonder if you watch ARY TV. There are two nuts there PJ Mir and Dr. Masood - both anchors. And they are still talking about the Islam-Kufr jung in case of Iraq whereas the entire world has expressed its outrage against the attack.
#6 Posted by taimurmalik on March 20, 2003 7:57:36 pm
Urstruly #4:
I suggest you take a look at the following URL`s,already suggested by temporal in his first post.
photo essay
http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=1866&CategoryId=23
letters
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,916299,00.html
Secondly,I don`t think we should generalize our opinions and say that all americans are evil, just like most of them think of us. Even if your disappointment was just directed to WASP Americans! We have to be different and more balanced/logical in our approach,reasoning,thinking and expression.
You,Urstruly, would(should!) know better.
I suggest you take a look at the following URL`s,already suggested by temporal in his first post.
photo essay
http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=1866&CategoryId=23
letters
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,916299,00.html
Secondly,I don`t think we should generalize our opinions and say that all americans are evil, just like most of them think of us. Even if your disappointment was just directed to WASP Americans! We have to be different and more balanced/logical in our approach,reasoning,thinking and expression.
You,Urstruly, would(should!) know better.
#5 Posted by septran on March 20, 2003 7:23:35 pm
temporal:it``s really touch my heart.evil bush would face the same fate.
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