As the Bald Eagle Tries to Rule

#72 by ahmadzai on March 24, 2003 12:27pm PT
//...Introspection you need badly....//

Or else - what? What are you going to do? Send in more killers to massacre more Indians? Issue more threats of ``unconventional`` attack? I think You guys are doing all you can to fulfil your ``thousand cuts`` dream. For us it can`t get any worse than it already is.

Yet - you won`t get the real estate you are so despertely looking for. You can bet your last dollar on this one.

Ahmedzai #73 I think you and I have a philosophical difference on Kashmir: you think it is worth fighting for, and I do not. Let me make my case very simply: Kashmir is a territorial dispute between two governments, and it is NOT WORTH A SINGLE HUMAN LIFE to try and change the status quo.
Please reflect upon this, and tell me if I am wrong in thinking this way. And if I am, I would like to know why.

ahmadzai

You seem to carry a great deal of guilt about Kargil. Why? Do you work for Pakistani army?

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#70 by mohar11
//...When you cut and paste things about innocent people getting killed in order to score ``holier than thou`` points on chowk, as you do, then you are merely exploiting their real life misery...///

Am I exploiting people`s real life misery? I didn`t realize that. Now that you pointed out - yes - I am exploiting misery of people. Because I haven`t seen anybody else writing about such misery of people in Gujrat, Kashmir, Chechnya, Palestine, Iraq or wherever.

I like you man. You are like a pophet - you give us all such good guidance, point out our mistakes.

//...Thank you and I must end discussion with you on this board now. Have a nice day....//
I have heard this before. So long buddy!

mohar11 @ # 70:

``Yes, your highness - that`s exactly what we are doing right now - ``introspecting`` over dead-bodies of 24 Indians massacred in Kashmir. ``

Introspection you need badly.When your Government would allow neutral observers and international media in your occupied part of Kashmir then the truth will become known to the world. With 700,000 or so military/para-military deployed and news filtered out only through state controlled sources, you will only get biased information from the valley.

In any case, I regret the crime against humanity. Pakistan has condemned the killing as a worse form of terrorism and all Pakistanis feel sorrow for the loss of valuable human life regardless of religious or ethnic affiliations.

tahmed32:

Warning - Looooong Post.

The hatred amongst Indians for Pakistanis is a definite product of their extremist Government agenda. In recent years, there is a definite sequence of events, which have made Indian Government very anti-Pakistani to the extent that there is not an iota of doubt in my mind that they have thrust an undeclared war on Pakistan. But ask any Indian and he will start from Kargil.

Kargil has only been made into an excuse by hawks in Indian Government, because of their own embarrassment at lack of preparation in the first place and coffin scandal at the latter. They did in fact invite General Musharraf for peace talks in Agra afterwards.

During the meetings at Agra, every thing was going right till the time General had a breakfast meeting with the Indian journalists. If you look at the proceedings of that informal meeting (please get a video if you can), all the journalists in the end enthusiastically agreed with General`s (Pakistan`s) stance on Kashmir being the core problem. The situation had turned quite embarrassing for hawks in Indian Government on that particular occasion. For example in the end, you would hear the journalists say some thing to the extent, ``we agree with you that Kashmir is a major issue and has to be resolved first``. At this, you would hear the General responding, ``well then its for you to tell your Government to recognize this as a core issue``. Journalists began laughing and supported the General`s viewpoint whole-heartedly.

This acceptance of the Pakistani stance on core issue by Indian non-government press, and by corollary its general public, lead Advani to interfere the following day and no joint declaration was allowed to be signed off.

Agra was a turning point where the Indian hawks decided that Pakistan would not budge an inch on Kashmir so they had to make their position inflexible too.

This was followed by 9/11 and Indian Governemnt tried to capitalize on it. General out-smarted them, thus causing another irritation.

Subsequent to 9/11, the undeclared war on Pakistan could be considered on a fair ground as Indians perceive that Pakistan is running a proxy war in Kashmir. It amassed 1 million troops on border citing events that were of doubtful origins in any case (e.g. all the attackers on Indian Parliament had no obvious target as seen in the video clips and I recommend you obtain that too for an analysis, running here and there without any objective. Moreover, all of them were killed. Therefore, no evidence could come out of them from where they came. Recall that earlier, there was a hijack hoax that had failed miserably). These events did not go in favor of India as much as it wanted to.

Economic pressure was put on Pakistan e.g. banning PIA flights over India. Pakistan retaliated and 16 or so PIA flights suffered as against over 100 Indian. India incurred a bigger loss than we did.

The amassing of troops also backfired in terms of burden on Indian exchequer and sagging of morale in Indian army. All these reports have been coming out in Indian media.

Since the US and the West have not stopped supporting the General, The Indian Government is visibly getting more and more irritated.

The general frustration of the failure of their above mentioned measures and many more like these is being wrongly attributed to Kargil alone.

Once again, why invite General to Agra after that episode.

The point is India would like to have peace with Pakistan if we drop Kashmir totally out of agenda. Since Musharraf did not do it, the Hawks got agitated. Generally, Indians are also agitated. Reason is that you get frustrated when you do not have a principled stand.

Because of our principled stand on Kashmir, all we have to do is to keep inviting India for talks. exactly, because of their lack of it, all India has to do is to create excuse after excuse or raise non-issues for not getting into negotiations. Its because of these excuses and non-issues that an average Indian is blitz into brain-washedness over the true picture.

For proof of our principled stand, I would refer you to another interview of General Musharraf by Indian journalists recently, shown on ARY Digital`s European transmissions last week. The Indian journalists were on the offensive to start with regarding Kashmir ``Cross-border terrorism``. But after hearing Musharraf speak on the matter and cross-questioning him, they boldly admitted that Pakistan has valid points. I can get you the details of that interview if you want.

On negotiations on Kashmir, Pakistan will be a winner any time because of the principle. This was proven right when the General had the opportunity to speak to the Indian journalists informally in Agra or formally in Pakistan on two different occasions.

India will always create excuses for going into any kind of negotiations.

Pakistanis (or people like you of Pakistani origin) should never fall for Indian excuses on Kargil.

#64 by ahmadzai
//..Btw, my response was only for Indians to introspect ;) ..//

Yes, your highness - that`s exactly what we are doing right now - ``introspecting`` over dead-bodies of 24 Indians massacred in Kashmir.

What else can we do anyway? When the victims of unbriddled Jihad and Islamic terrorism are being castigated as extremists extraordnaire , what else can they do really!

We are introspecting now - how we hinoods can become so ``inhuman``!!What have we done - how can the peace-loving, lilly-livered, gentle-souls living in our western border could be so moved to regard us as extremists!!

mohar11 #68 When you cut and paste things about innocent people getting killed in order to score ``holier than thou`` points on chowk, as you do, then you are merely exploiting their real life misery. This line of thinking is not much different, ironically, that the line of thinking of those who attack innocent people in the name of some political cause. That is why I ignore such cut and pastes by chowk posters trying to use the real life tragedies of people for to score points in their petty quarrels on chowk.
Thank you and I must end discussion with you on this board now. Have a nice day.

#65 by tahmed32 on March 24, 2003 7:32am PT
//.. Please dont try to hide behind your community .....blah.. blah//

Am I (hiding behind my community)?

Silly me! How dare I? That privilege is reserved for only some people. How dare a hindoo claim protection behind his community?

( I like what you write, man - I like them very much. I just don`t want to repeat your entire paragraph of wisdom all over again in my reply. So I use ``blahs`` indicating that there are more of the same for any interested reader. I see you don`t like such laziness on my part. Well - tough luck mate!)

And I see there is not a whimper about the ``respect`` those 24 hinoods got when they were massacred in Kashmir. Any other pakis here ready to offer their collecetive shoulders for us hinoods to cry on?

After all - hindus got lot of sermons on death of secularism in India when muslim minorities got butchered in Gujrat. We deserved such sermons ( even though it came from the most un-deserving source ) - we failed to protect our minorities.

But no such sermons were being issued when Hindu minority gets butchered in Kashmir. No corodile tears were being shed how secularism in India would be affected by such massacres. No call to ``introspection`` was issued.

Well - hindus who are such extremists, they deserve it, don`t they? They deserve to be killed until they hand over the real-estate of Kashmir to the its rightful owners - Pakistanis.

ahmedzai #64 I agree with you that there are far more Indians posting insults to pakistanis on chowk than vice versa. That is a fact, as one can easilyu see on chowk. Indeed, I have been noting this point for months now (long before you came to chowk). I really dont know the reason, although I have some possibilities:
(a) its an ethnic characteristic: that is, some communities (e.g. south indians, and I know that some of the most offensive individuals like jay are south indian, and some really friendly chaps are panjabis) being more querrelsome by nature than others (some indeed even explicitly bragging that they come to chowk for ``paki bashing``). But then we are again in the land of generalities which I have learnt by experience are very misleading. So I reject this explanation.
(b) Public opinion in India is generally more anti-pakistan than vice versa: Maybe this is true, and there is a general anti-pakistan public opinion in India, molded perhaps by things that are not paralleled on the pakistani side - like feelings of being stood up through partition in 1947, general resentment against muslims as representing an outside influence on indigenous culture. You seem to think this is the case, and there is some possibility you are right. Although, even if this is true, public opinion does tend to be fickle and if tomorrow the two governments patch up public opinion will go the other way.

I think the important thing is not to fall into the same trap as some of these individuals whose petty insults and putdowns of pakistanis, our culture and our religion both you and I decry. Let us try to always remind us about the positive aspects of India and Indian culture: and indeed there are many. From the incredibly rich and unique history, to great ideas like that of nonviolence that Gandhi gave the world (and were even accepted by Ghaffar Khan I believe who is from your province). I am not going to let a few pakistan-hating jerks on chowk take away from me this love for this ancient land and culture of India.

mohar1 #62 Please dont try to hide behind your community by misquoting me on ``inhuman`` hindus. I never said that. And if you dont like what I write, dont change what I wrote to ``blah..blah``. You sound like a 2 year old when you do that.

Harish/Romair: When I get both of you unhappy at the same time, I am clearly onto something. Anyway, I will say this about Romair (and there is no bias hear even though it will appear like that to some folks on chowk): he is not as vicious as harish_hyd. Harish proudly claims he comes to chowk for ``paki-bashing`` (thus overcoming his his need to be a macho man which he obviously cant be in real life). Romair makes no such claims. He simply makes meaningless statements like ``Canadians are more friendly than Pakistanis``.
Oh, and I wont skip your posts, gentlemen. You are too much fun for that.

tahmed @ # 46:

I do not agree with your line of thinking and defending an argument.

On generalization, your points are redundant, because (1) I have myself said in various earlier posts that we should not generalize, (2) I have admitted in my previous posts that I am not an extremist and that I enjoy watching Indian movies, have great respect for Hinduism as a Way of Life, etc. and (3) I am responding to an average Indian`s belief that Pakistanis are generally extremists.

Despite my submissions above, some level of generalization has to be made to further an argument, otherwise this interactive board would be useless. This is not a site to resolve inter-personal issues. Nor is this a dating site. Moreover, generally people do not come on this interactive boards to participate in popularity contest.

You wrote:
``Points 3: ``Points: Indians are .... also inhumane - having no regards for human values.``
Disagree 100%. This is a subjective generalization. The human psyche does not change at the national borders. While we all hope for the evolution of human societies towards greater respect for life, these are complex issues that cannot be reduced to such simple generalizations. ... I don`t think the number of posters here is large enough to draw any general conclusions about the indian community, however). ``

You are wrong. If you take the articles getting published in Indian print and debates in Indian electronic media, plus take Indian lobby at work in the UK and the USA then you would note that there is sufficient support to anti-Pakistani sentiments being promoted by extremist Indian Government and that Indians have fallen for it.

I mean what else could be the reason that so many Pakistani bashers have gotten together on Chowk like you said. Are Pakistanis on Chowk uglier or better looking than Indians? Have we come from some outer planet? Is this site making them green with envy? Is Chowk staff peeving them off? Or what? You tell me.

I have not been here on this site for long. But I have noticed one thing. Whenever a Pakistani would like to respond to an Indian accusations or a point of view, soon he will be branded a Jihadi, extremist or one having no knowledge of certain aspect. I mean what the he*k? Who are these Indians on this Chowk if you want me to believe that they are exceptions?

Boss, you have to agree that there is something drastically wrong with Indians these days. Their being anchored on Kargil is no excuse. That was another of my argument. We could have remained anchored on East Pakistan debacle for that matter and UK could have remained anchored on USA`s war of independence.

Finally, go on a comparable Indian site and see if Pakistanis are leaving any offensive comments there.