As the Bald Eagle Tries to Rule

Ahmedzai # 41
Your arguments are illogical and incoherent.

` By your admission then, Indians should not accuse all Pakistanis as back-stabbers. They should go ahead with negotiations with PML Q (the over-whelming majority of which are Nawaz`s former party members). `

We do not accuse all Pakistanis as back stabbers. However PML Q is a puppet government whose strings are in the hands of Musharraf. As long as the army is the real power in Pakistan, there can be no negotiating with any government, because these governments can not deliver on the agreements.

When there is a freely elected government in Pakistan, I am sure any Indian government will negotiate with them.

As far as the rest of your post you seem to be saying that since you were busy doing something else the Indians took advantage of you and there fore it is back stabbing.

As I said in my last post, when you have an enemy in front of you, you should not be looking any where else. You should be paying attention to the enemy. If you don`t do that then you are a fool, because the enemy will take advantage of you if he can. That is not back stabbing, that is using enemy`s weakeness to defeat him.

As far as the last para where you are claiming that Indian governments have harmed you, believe me, most Indians and the governments do not want to deal with Pakistan. If Pakistanis stay within their border and leave India alone, India will leave Pakistan alone.

But the problem is that Pakistanis keep taking `panga` with India and then get burnt.

#36 by ahmadzai
//..Points: Indians are not only more extremists then us and bigger backstabbers, they are also inhumane - having no regards for human values...//

Congrats - you proved your ``points`` beautifully. Now, I am convinced - we Indians are extremists extraordinaire, much more than pakistanis could ever be.

Now, all you have to do is convince the INS and the rest of the world.

Ahmedzai #34
Point 1: ``If Pakistanis can be called extremists then Indians are much more extremists then we are. ``
Agreed, but only for the Indians on chowk. And the evidence is there on chowk. See my post #39 to mohar11 on this.
For Indians in general, I would NOT draw any conclusions since I dont think it is realistic to draw such generalizations about an entire community of millions of people.

Point 2: ``Points: Indians ...are also bigger backstabbers. ``
Disagree, to the extent Kargill did represent backstabbing of the Lahore peace process by our military. Vajpayee was visiting Pakistan on a piece mission, and there is no question our military sabotaged the process. The blame rests with the generals, however, and it is wrong to blame all Pakistanis for this. By the same token it is wrong to blame Indians for Bangladesh and Siachin - also, to be fair there was no peace process underway in either case that was sabotaged as a result.

Points 3: ``Points: Indians are .... also inhumane - having no regards for human values.``
Disagree 100%. This is a subjective generalization. The human psyche does not change at the national borders. While we all hope for the evolution of human societies towards greater respect for life, these are complex issues that cannot be reduced to such simple generalizations.

While I disagree with you on the above points, I do share your desire for a more peaceful subcontinent. What I find appalling is the presence of posters on chowk who gloat about problems on the other side of the border and viciously attack pakistanis (we have a couple of pakistanis who do the same to indians, but much fewer for some reason - I dont think the number of posters here is large enough to draw any general conclusions about the indian community, however).

mohar11 #38 For once I am in complete agreement with you. Cheers!

ajeet #37 I think Saddam got his as$ whipped on the very first day, from all indications, and was (according to Dawn, but not on official US accounts) was seen taken away on a stretcher with an oxygen mask. Given the pain and misery his has caused to literally hundreds of thousands of people, I think this is one death or injury for which I will not feel too sorry.
There is an ancient curse which goes like this: May you have a hundred houses. And may each house have a hundred rooms. And may you go from room to room screaming in agony.
I think for Saddam - with his multiple palaces, and now his injuries - this curse may well be coming true.

mohar11 #30 Please dont present self-righteous excuses for the hatreds that you and so many other Indians routinely present on chowk. Some of your colleagues - jay and harish_hyd - have even bragged about coming to chowk only to ``bash pakistanis``, which is their way of saying ``insult and putdown pakistanis``, since that is all they can do on the internet. And I suppose the word ``bash`` makes them feel like the macho men that they cant be in real life.
As a result, a powerful medium for building better understanding at the people-to-people level among Indians and Pakistanis, or even for civilized discussion on other topics, is all too often reduced to a garbage dump of petty insults on chowk.
This hatred for pakistanis results from your own psychological shortcomings, and not due to the policies and actions of the respective governments. So try to look into the mirror for the roots of your hatreds, and dont try to escape this reality by pointing to the policies or actions of the pakistani government.
I think certain actions and policies of the indian government stink, as do certain indian individuals on chowk. but this does not cause me to lose respect and appreciation for the hindu religion, or for hindus as a community, or to wish India anything other than a prosperous and peaceful future. Maybe you ought to try this for a few days, and you will find you will still have plenty to talk about on chowk.

veeresh

You forgot to mention its not just the bald eagle circling overhead, there is also the Saudi falcon out on the hunt.

The Saudi riyal supposedly funded the other daal mohammads` nuclear program, the 80s-90s jihad and Al Qaeda. The Saudi riyal is a pernious currency which has persuaded a number of daal mohammad Bangladeshis to disown their own heritage, Tagore, then what to say of Hindus.

The other Arabian currencies have contributed their mite too, apart from providing easy convertability to Dawood Ibrahim types to continue their operations from offshore.

What good is the ephemeral kinship of cricket, teen patti and daal in competition with hard religion and hard currency? Indians should end this habit of disarming ourselves with futile sentiment. Indians should instead build a thick wall between India and Pakistan, get on with our lives and concentrate on strengthening our own currency.

Ajeet @ # 33:

By your admission then, Indians should not accuse all Pakistanis as back-stabbers. They should go ahead with negotiations with PML Q (the over-whelming majority of which are Nawaz`s former party members).

Btw, I would define back-stabbing as a stab in the back of a person when he is looking in exactly the opposite direction of the stabber. According to this definition then, India back-stabbed us while:

1. We were looking in another direction of managing East Pakistan situation,

2. we were involved in Afghan war of the 80s (Siachin, where Indian point of view of Pakistanis issuing licenses is extremely far-fetched an idea) and

3. we were and are still involved in fighting terrorism (amassing troops on our Eastern frontier thus diverting our attention).

So by the way of these definitions, Indians can call our Musharraf as a back-stabber, but we can call all the Indians as back-stabbers because they have elected different Governments in power who have all harmed us while our focus was/is somewhere else.

This is for your introspection alone. No hard feelings please.

ahmedzai #28,
``India backstabbing Pakistan in Bangladesh ..!!!!``

Ahmedzai, Come out of your dreams and start smelling coffee. Talk to any Bangladeshi. Talk to few of your own country men (and women).
You will find that Pakistan stabbed itself in foot and in bottom. Stop blaming India for the mess you created in Bangladesh.

As Ajeet already pointed out, when Pakistani PM was talking of peace, his army chief was plotting Kargil. Can you give such examples from anywhere else in world? Can one ever discuss peace now with any other Pakistani prime minister or president? Who knows that his deputy is not plotting another Kargil on us!

It seems the eagle is finding out that taking on the mice is not without pain after all. The mice are showing some teeth and are refusing to behave like lambs in putting down there weapons and walking into the hold. More American soldiers killed and captured.

However, the bottom line still is that Saddam is going to get his A$$ whipped. It might not be as neat and clean as the last gulf war, but the end result will be that Saddam and his sons will be killed or captured.

#32 by tahmed32
//...It is time to end this dispute, let the status quo rest where it is, and let us hold our respective governments responsible for what they should be doing...//

Exactly my point. This is a land dispute first and last. To sugarcoat it with varying sermons of morality is meaningless.

Time to move on. Like India and China have moved on from their land disputes. Like China and Taiwan have moved on. Like countless other such land disputes have been moth-balled for greater interests of both parties.

This is perfectly acceptable for Indian public at large and its government: LOC = Border.

But I am not sure Pakistani Army will ever accept such a position. There in lies the trouble.

mohar11 @ # 31:

I agree lot of things happened in 90s - Babri Mosque was destroyed, Muslims were killed in Bombay riots and in Kashmir, Indians elected fanatics and anti-secularism element to power, that fanatics in power began officially supporting the minority Northern Alliance against Pakhtoons.

Yes, a combination of all these events could have triggered anti-Indianism, but do read my response to tahmed.

Ahmedzai # 24

`As regards to back-stabbing, why stop at Kargil? Let us go back in history - how about Indian back-stabbing in East Pakistan? `

Not to split the hair, but back-stabbing usually means a covert treachery, while overtly being friendly. That is why Kargil was back-stabbing and Bangla desh was not. In the first case, Vajpai and Musharraf`s legal Boss, were trying to build a friendship while Musharraf was weilding the knife behind, both Sharif`s and well as Vajpai`s back. In the second case India and Pakistan were openly hostile and India took advantage of Pakistan army`s brutalisation of its Majority population the Bengalis.

As far as Saichin, there was on LOC and for good reason. That area is climatically one of the most hostile areas in the world. The Pakistani again, were covertly laying claim to the area by issuing permits to foreigners to ski there The Indians put a stop to that by occupying it. However, I think the Pakistanis in this case have the last laugh, because Indian is spending a fortune in money and ruined lives in defending that wasteland.

Your comparrison of the communal parties of India and Pakistan is also on the shaky ground for several reasons. The people in power what ever they profess openly brutalise the powerless, if they think they have a reason, and that they can get away with it. Thus congress the so called secular party under the `progressive leader` Rajiv Gandhi was as brutal against the Sikhs as communal Modi against the Muslims. Similarly the moderate PPP under rising star leader of Pakistan was openly supportive of the general`s brutalisation of the Bengalis as long as it assured his coronation as the prime minister.

tahmed32 @ # 32:

I agree with you, but the point I made in my couple of posts were on different accounts:

1. Indians on this website routinely claim Pakistanis are extremists. I told them its Pakistanis who are watching Indian movies despite our having a stronger reason (their part in East Pakistan debacle) to hate them. OTOH, Indians have totally boycotted Pakistani products.

Point: If Pakistanis can be called extremists then Indians are much more extremists then we are.

2. Indians are constantly mentioning Pakistan`s backstabbing them in Kargil as if we are the most guiltiest party in the world on this account. I mentioned why stop at Kargil. Lets us go back a little in Siachin and then in East Pakistan. Pakistanis have every reason to believe that Indians are bigger backstabbers.

Points: Indians are not only more extremists then we are, they are also bigger backstabbers.

3. I also mentioned, and this I have been mentioning in all my posts relating to Kashmir, whereas Pakistanis only talk about the rights of and voice of Kashmiris, Indians only talk about Kashmir as a Landmass i.e. Atoot Ang and such like.

Points: Indians are not only more extremists then us and bigger backstabbers, they are also inhumane - having no regards for human values.

As a result, Indians have destroyers of the symbol of secularism in India in power through popular vote, backstabbed us again at the time of our focus on War against Terrorism on our western borders and within our interiors by amassing troops on our eastern border and have given an OK signal to the pogrom of Muslims in India (Gujrat and Kashmir).

Btw, I watch Indian movies, have not backstabbed and have not insulted any Indian ever in the real life.

I just request a bit of introspection on part of our respected Indian friends on this forum. No hard feelings please.

``Democracy`s`` litter:

``Iraqi bodies litter plain as U.S. troops advance

By Luke Baker

NEAR NAJAF, Iraq, March 23 (Reuters) - Burnt out vehicles and incinerated bodies littered a plain in central Iraq on Sunday after U.S. forces overwhelmed Iraqi militia fighters in a battle south of the holy city of Najaf.``(AP)

Salute to our C`nC -- Heil Hitler

ahmedzai #28 The characterization of Kashmir as ``disputed territory`` as you put it (and as also characterized by governments on both sides for 50 years now), deserves some reflection: Territorial wars are like land feuds on a smaller scale. And land feuds bring only violence, killings, hatreds that are passed through the generations to the families concerned. Both lose out. Wiser people in the meanwhile focus on something that is far more important than land: education and increased income earning capacity, so that ultimately they can if they want buy ten times the land in question.,
Land feuds at the family level provide important lessons on the Kashmir dispute: no one can deny that this feud has cost both countries increased violence, killings and hatreds that have been passed through generations of governments. It is time to end this dispute, let the status quo rest where it is, and let us hold our respective governments responsible for what they should be doing: trying to improve the economic well-being and social and cultural progress in their respective countries.
This brings me to the other aspect of the Kashmir dispute: the right of self-determination for the average Kashmiri. Neither the Pakistan government nor the Indian government is willing to give them this right - otherwise they would hold a referendum on their part of Kashmir to let them decide their future.
So, there are no great moral issues at stake in Kashmir. Only two small minded governments who are more interested in retaining control over this piece of land than they are in the high moral principles (``self-determination`` in case of the Pakistani government, and ``integral part of India`` in case of the Indian government) that they both have talking about for 50 years.