As the Bald Eagle Tries to Rule

//..``They`` could have, if they wanted to, gone in and taken Saddam out. Everybody knows. ..//

That was a huge mistake - not to take out Saddam last time. A stitch in time would have saved nine.

nice comparison of experiences veeresh. didn`t know the rupee had so much value. the bald eagle has pecked into hornets nest me thinks. i wonder how all this will be ten or twenty years from now. right now, it`s the dollar with so much value.

Veeresh

I enjoyed reading this travellers`s tale. That sounds like a full life. Meeting people and mixing. Oceans & ports and ``Teen Patti. `
Whisky & woman.

When was it? Did you come across Captain Bligh?

Women outlive men all over the world. Something to do with estrogen. Look around in your family.

Liked this. Talking of daal Mohammads, I heard it said that the older buildings in Saudi Arabia often have crooked walls, or slanted walls or have five walls to a room or crazy corners. It seems the reason was that though they were filthy rich, Saudi Arabians were basically a nomad people with no building or masonry skills and so, in the early days, they had a desperate demand for Pakistanis, ANY Pakistanis to build their buildings for them:). Any corroboration?

Speaking of marshes, there was a book A Ring of Bright Water about an otter which the author had brought back from the Tigris-Euphrates marshes. The species was later named after him, Maxwell`s otter, a species which it seems is now extinct.

At some point in his career, Saddam Hussain set fire to those marshes, to punish the Marsh Arabs, who have been `protected` from him in the last many years by US/UK through their enforcement of the Iraqi southern nofly zone.

Veeresh Saheb:

You are talking about the good old days.

The days when my brother and friends, all school kids, would bike 30 miles to Peshawar and back. When my father used to take us across into Afghanistan in Shalwars and Qameeses with visas stamped on Torkham border. When the whole world was friendly towards each other.

There was no Pakistan and Indianism in the late 80s too. I recall one night out of my college campus in NYC into the subway and an Indian Gujrati (obviously some Patel) newspaper staller approached me and while talking advised to devote more time to my studies and make my parents living in Pakistan proud. He would hand over a copy of NYT free of cost daily.

My sweetheart (now my wife) had Indian friends and I never minded that. Our Indian friends invited us to their place and vice versa. I liked Indians calling me Kabooli (although I am not).

Now the times have changed and I do not notice how biased (anti-Indian) I have become. When we travel to the USA, we notice that the Indian friends of our next generation (neices and nephews) disperse quickly at my site. Although I never realised that I am anti-Indian, it must be showing on my face right?

I have not been able to figure out what happened in the 90s that really made me an anti-Indian, if I am one that is. This is something that the `biased education of Pakistan` was not able to impart.

Ref sadna #4

[I heard it said that the older buildings in Saudi Arabia often have crooked walls, or slanted walls or have five walls to a room or crazy corners. It seems the reason was that though they were filthy rich, Saudi Arabians were basically a nomad people with no building or masonry skills and so, in the early days, they had a desperate demand for Pakistanis, ANY Pakistanis to build their buildings for them:). Any corroboration?]

The ONLY people on earth who are incapable of building a building with 4 walls are Hindus. Only Hindu architects and builders are capable of building a structure with all walls at right angles to each other AND completing a closed structure with 37 or 53 walls. If you don`t believe me, look at any concrete monstrosity these guys have put up. I suggest the International terminal at Chennai as one example.

Hindus are also genetically incapable of using an arch.

Sadna,

Don`t know about the Pakistanis making for interesting architecture but I know that in the early days of the UAE when they had had only recently become a country and the Bedu weren`t as despotically comfortable with their wealth, a lot of them started building houses and settling down, shedding their nomadic ways. They built these huge mansions smack in the middle of blank desert and would go roving miles for food in their land rovers and what not and while the charm of those palaces worked for the younger people, a lot of the older ones couldn`t stomach it. So, having spent their day at home with the family, these old men would go out every night and sleep in the desert, under the starry sky.

very powerful article, veeresh. Its almost like reading a memoir.Yes you have definitely lived a full life. The metaphors, and imagery is also very poignant. Couldnt stop reading till the last word and then too didnt want it to end!
I had no idea that the ruppee was ever that powerful.

Ansari #6
The idea of those who were traditionally nomads actually having to build homes and cities, settle down and get adjusted is very interesting :). I guess like there was recently such a boom in software during which even people with NO s/w skills could get jobs, there would have been a time when there was a major building boom in the Gulf countries.

Veeresh: I think we have a first on chowk: an article in the good old tradition of seamen`s tales. Your impressions from your wanderings around the gulf area in the 70`s and 80`s are quite interesting.
The gulf area has indeed a long tradition of sea-faring activity going back a few thousand years, which has only lately been eclipsed by the transformation of their economies due to oil wealth. But the age-old sea-faring tradition will live on, I think, in stories of Sindbad the Sailor and (now) Veeresh the Sailor as well.

veeresh:

so you have not been able to shake off Kurt?;)…and it shows!…felt transported a-la back-to-the-futute…yeah…`those were the day my friend’…aren’t you glad you did not ‘lower’ yourself from the huge boats to state-of-art ‘dhow’ launches…ferrying the other contrabond?…who knows you could be a Mumbai don now;)…you remember karanjia and kampala?…I remember when there were no roads in the region….other than the camel the Leyland landrover was the only mode of transport…and at night the driver navigated looking at the stars…yes, those were the days, my friend:)

ahmadzai:

things have changed and yet they have remained the same…we are the same…indians or pakistanis…attitudes have hardened in some cases where the ordinary desis have to pay for the follies of their governments…but deep down we are still the same…my travels always reinforce this…

rgds,

t

Veeresh,

that was good....after a very very long time I have read an article on Chowk which was great had all the ingrediants there. I not sure if this is the first.....

Yes, the khor moosa khurram Shehr basrah and the rupee.....when Iraq was simply a better place to visit than the sandy dunes of the rets pf the gulf where all you had was .......

thanks for the great peice....

Temporal:

You wrote:
``things have changed and yet they have remained the same…we are the same…indians or pakistanis…attitudes have hardened in some cases where the ordinary desis have to pay for the follies of their governments…but deep down we are still the same…my travels always reinforce this… ``

And I find it to be the other way round. The more I try to find commonalities the more I find differences. Beyond cultural and religious distinction, there is increasing enmity now.

The real enmity in the younger generation might have come from 1999 Kargil episode. Although the Indians had sneaked into Siachin back in 1984, that was not raised as an issue so much so that the Indians made it out for Kargil.

Pakistanis sneaked in Kargil just like the Indians had in Siachin. However, due to on over-presence in electronic and conventional media, India soon blew the whole thing out of proportion. The subsequent battle followed the war hysteria created by Indians. The result is that Indians have begun to hate Pakistanis from the core of their hearts knowing not that not all Pakistanis had any thing to do with Kargil. The net result - Pakistanis reciprocated in the hate frenzy and the things are irreversible now.

This is what I have found during my travels. Talk to any Indian like you are an Indian and find out their hate against Pakistanis, always giving reference to Kargil and Kashmir. Talk to any Pakistani by acting like a Pakistani and you will find hate but not to that extent as Indians have for us.

Other indicators: You may find Pakistanis buying Indian products and watching movies. You will not find Indians picking any Pakistan made, for example, food Masala item, although these are even being shopped by non-subconties nowadays. Do your own independent survey and you will get to the same conclusion. And then these Indians have the gall to call Pakistanis as extremists. What nonsense?

Thank you everybody, this was written while trying to wade through the acres of information available on Iraq, and by the comments of a friend that he had simply shut down his television. If out of this I can make even a few more of us appreciate and believe that at the end of the day while we as Indians and Pakistanis can & should continue to retain our rights to disagree and fight with each other, but need to believe that our real enemies are common and various, then that makes me happy. And warm inside, so thank you for the compliments. Somebody has sent me a private mail accusing me of Joseph Conraditis, so next time I shall try to make it shorter.

Many:- Yes, the Indian Rupee, coin as well as paper, was the currency used in places as far apart as Aden, Kuwait, Burma, probably Brunei till the late `50s and in some parts of the Persian Gulf till the early `60s. Matter of fact, melting of Indian coins for higher metal value was part of the success and origin of more than a few very respectable business houses in both Pakistan & India.

Nazarhayatkhan:- Women in our middle/upper middle class families outlive men because diet and health are equally distributed. I think. It is the overall national average that I was comparing.

Ahmadzai:- what can I say, just ``chill``. Maybe I could comprehend that you are probably anti-Indian government, not anti-Indians? There is an interesting point of view here, many Indians can`t stand the Indian government either! But it may be slightly politically incorrect for us to say so on an Indo-Pak forum, like how we would boast about the Ambassador, for those who caught that? . . . our governments are so similar that we end up hating both of them simultaneously, but Pakistanis end up confusing Indian people with their Government. And vice versa?

Harimau:- yeah, you are correct, Chennai multi-nick airport is legoland in white gone haywire. But then, i quite like the Oberoi trident right outside . . .

TAhmed:- yes, i think there will be some payback that the USA will get out of this carpet bombing and bullying. And I think the lessons of Vietnam will be revisited on them in the mountains and the marshes.

Temporal:- yup I remember the ``K`` ships and then the Dwarka etcetc. Also the Asia/Victoria duo. Grew up around them . . .

Veeresh sahab; enjoyed this a great deal. Thank you.

``The Iraqis and Iranians would accept a rupee currency note from us, Indians and Pakistanis, but would turn their nose up at the dollar. We could travel from Kuwait till India by road, using Pakistani or Indian currency in those days.``



...what is so sad and furstrating is that back in those days it seemed that pak and india were heading somewhere....there was tangible progress..hope and optimism for the future...

ahmadzai ji

``Pakistanis sneaked in Kargil just like the Indians had in Siachin``

You need to get your facts right Sir. The officially agreed LoC finishes before it reaches Siachin. A cursory reading of any credible document should tell you why Siachin was referred to as ``undemarcated territory``. Indian army moved in after Pakistani army attempted to show it a part of PoK and started sending expeditions to this area. This topic has been discussed in detail on this forum. Kargil, OTOH, was to the Indian side of the LoC and hence it was a clear transgression of the agreed upon LoC. It may be a good idea for you to read more extensively on this issue and brush up your fundamentals.

PS I agree with the rest of your post. A lot has transpired between 1989 and 2003 to merit the hardening of the general Indian attitude.

The Bald Eagle will surely win this war.

It is the grey matter of its leader that one can question.

What exactly will it take to keep the peace?

And before the next adversary, Al Faeda.............


Ras

Ref veeresh #14

[Yes, the Indian Rupee, coin as well as paper, was the currency used in places as far apart as Aden, Kuwait, Burma, probably Brunei till the late `50s and in some parts of the Persian Gulf till the early `60s.]

Paid Rs. 7 in Indian currency for a Coke at the Dubai Airport in 1969. So, make it the late 60`s.

[Matter of fact, melting of Indian coins for higher metal value was part of the success and origin of more than a few very respectable business houses in both Pakistan & India.]

Was it Dhirubhai Ambani who started his business melting Indian silver rupees in Yemen? Or am I thinking of someone else?

Ahmedzai #15
You write
``Pakistanis sneaked in Kargil just like the Indians had in Siachin. However, due to on over-presence in electronic and conventional media, India soon blew the whole thing out of proportion. The subsequent battle followed the war hysteria created by Indians. ``...
If Pakistani were so incensed by Siachin, why didn`t they use diplomatic channels, like India did.
And if they had to take Kargil military action in ritaliation, they should have done that much before and not while Lahore was happening. It was just a case of plain and simple back-stabbing when Vajpayi, with complete India behind him, was trying to write a new chapter of Indo-Pak peace.
Indian really hated Pakistani army for that. And they start hating those Pakistanis too who try to justify this back-stabbing.

i used to think ,our mulla are .extremisit.indian espicallyyounger generation is very much biased.what indian author wrote in wsj about pakistani cricketers.he vent out venom against pakistan not the players.
please grow up,we are the same human being.we have to change the world with new ideas,new concepts.

Veeresh

Give us your take of the different people you met.

For example, I found the Arabs to most nasty and uncomfortable people to deal. Saudi Arabia etc. The poorer the Arab country, better the people. Jordan, Syria etc.

The English were stiff.

The French & German good. Americans the best.

Bigger the city, worst the attitude.

The Far Easterns (except the too commercial Singaporeans) were soft and polite.

Japanese very humble and curious.

Old ladies and young men are easy to converse every where. Old ladies feel no threat and love to talk about their families. And the young men are curious to know about you.

veeresh #14 I think you are much better at telling old seamen`s tales than at discussing politics. So, very quickly, let me disagree with you on the current gulf war.
As should be clear even after a mere three days of the war, the iraqis are voting with their feet: if they really cared for Saddam, they would have put up some fight. Instead, they seem to be following instructions on US leaflets on how to capitulate - i.e. to simply walk away from their positions and go home. Two major cities (Um Qasr and now Basra) have capitulated with hardly a fight. Nor has the bombing been carpet bombing, as you say. Another fact is that in this war the US is free to go to Baghdad, whereas in Vietnam any land offensive on North Vietnam would have brought the Red Chinese into the war. So, I think sir you need to examine the facts first before reaching emotionally satisfying but unrealistic conclusions. As such, I suggest we agree to disagree if you still think that this war is like Vietnam.
Now lets get back to your sailor`s stories. You did not mention, e.g., the hot spot ports in the persian gulf area and in the neigboring islands (e.g. I have heard some interesting stories about Seychelles Islands, which has the worlds most beautiful women). So, lets hear something about that.

Nazar sahab,

``Old ladies and young men are easy to converse every where.``

:) Reminds me of the line in ``Guess Who`s Coming to Dinner?``: what happens to men when they grow up?

I have dealt with the following people, (mostly in the IT field) in various degrees, in quite a bit of detail, at a personal level: Pakistanis, Americans, Canadians, Arabs, Israelis, Chinese, Iranis, Brits, Russians.

Taking a racist attitude - though an unbiased racist one - I would rank them as follows in their personal 1-1 dealings, i.e. friendliness/ease to get along with/fun to be around/politeness/non-violence etc., from best to worst:

Canadians, Indians, Americans, Chinese, Pakistanis, Israelis, Iranis, Russians, Brits....a large gap.....Arabs (the poor Arabs are ok, but the rich ones are idiots).

At a national/community level, i.e. how do these people behave (friendly/non-violently) in groups and in terms of supporting there countries wrongs and rights, being nationally introspective, I would rank them as follows, from top to bottom:

Canadians, Brits, Pakistanis, Iranis, Indians, Americans, Arabs, Israelis (don`t know much about Russians/Chinese in this regard).

reply #24
Ansari sahab

``Old ladies and young men are easy to converse every where.``

The above observation is a fact when one travels around. Getting into conversation with a young woman is invariably difficult. Even when there is nothing on your mind, she is on the defensive and avoids talking to a stranger. The only exception is a young woman with a child. The child-fascination approach works.

There is no problem opening up conversation with older women. They sense no threat.

The body language of a young woman who may wish to converse could be this. She would be sitting relaxed with her legs open and he back fully back with the chair rest. She would occasionally throw her hair back and look around. She would be wearing a liberal dress with deep V-cut, may be with some exposure. Or dupatta fully thrown back. Possibly with a mild smile and a fleeting stationary eye contact with you. In this case, you could attempt to open conversation.

Older men are tired, worried or simply fed up. They do not want to waste time conversing with a stranger. Students or young men are much easier to open a conversation.

nazarhayatkhan #26 you write ``Even when there is nothing on your mind, she is on the defensive and avoids talking to a stranger. ``
Are you sure there is nothing on your mind when you approach strange young women? You did write elsewhere on chowk about the joys of extra-marital sex. Maybe that gleam in your eye, the increased beating of the heart, and the shine of sweat on your face provides some instinctive clues to these young women that even you are not conscious of. Then instinct takes over, and they run away from you. But never fear. You should run after them.
And hey! if they outrun you, you can always go after the older women who cant run as fast as you. And if all else fails, there is always good old Mrs. nazarhayatkhan at home (although I suspect even she runs off when you come near, and that is why you have these lustful cravings).

Pankaj and Friend:

LOC or no LOC, the whole of Kashmir is a disputed territory. Its fate can only be decided by the Kashmiris only as per the promise given to them by various UN resolutions. This is principled and straight-forward approach. You simply cannot give any excuse for wrong-doing by India in Siachin. India has to give a justification for sneaking into this area and starting a bloody conflict there just the way it wants Pakistan to do on Kargil.

As regards to back-stabbing, why stop at Kargil? Let us go back in history - how about Indian back-stabbing in East Pakistan?

So if India has any reason to hate Pakistanis for Kargil, Pakistanis have much stronger reason to hate Indians due to Siachin and EP. But we don`t do that goes to prove that its Indians who are hate-mongers and fanatics.

Its time for introspection by Indians also. Whereas in Pakistan extremist parties have polled 11 % of votes (despite anti-Americanism sweeping in Pakistan due to `War on Islam`), the moderates of PPP, PML Q and the rest have polled over 60%.

Can you say the same about India, where the destroyers of the symbols of secularism are ruling since ages now?

No hard feelings, but introspection is the key word here.

Romair #25 Please spare us the agony of such generalizations. I have worked with Canadians (the ones you have on the top of your list) who were absolute jerks, and Canadians who were OK dokey. I know a Russian fellow (whom you put at the bottom of the list in terms of friendliness etc.) who worked many years ago with me and, upon leaving the job, assured me I was the finest boss he ever had, and thus has remained close to my heart ever since (hey, the man knew what he was talking about!). And how dare you put the Brits at the bottom of the list of friendliness!! And I once worked with a rich Arab - a Saudi Arabian at that - who was sharp as your razor blade, and worked his butt off.
So please never, ever, make such generalizations. You will only be demonstrating your own personal prejudices and lack of depth.
Now repeat after me: ``I, Rumair, do hereby swear never to make generalizations`` Say this 100 times until you get it.

Nazar sahab,

LOL. Will keep that in mind next time I`m stuck in some departure lounge, counting my change in a foreign language only to find that all those coins add up to is a stick of gum.
But yes, it is a pleasure to find new people opening up to you, strangers revealing shades of familiarity. There is something indescribably human about the friendship, nebulous though it may be, that travellers sometimes share. A spark of potential that maybe it is possible to transcend boundaries through humor and laughter and the wealth of common experience that all people, no matter who they may be, carry with them.

#5 by ahmadzai
//..I have not been able to figure out what happened in the 90s that really made me an anti-Indian, if I am one that is....//

Which hole did you crawl out of?

Let`s see what all happened in the 90`s: Jihad `happened` in Kashmir. Nuke tests `happened` in India and then in Pakistan. Peace `happened` in Lahore quickly followed by War in Kargil. Peace again `happened` in Agra as quickly followed by attacks on Assembly in Srinagar and Parliament in Delhi .... so on and so forth...

All these catastrophic events happened, one after another, within a very short period of 10-12 years. Are these enough to make you anti-Indian? I don`t know. But it sure made a lot of Indians anti-pakistan.

ahmedzai #28 The characterization of Kashmir as ``disputed territory`` as you put it (and as also characterized by governments on both sides for 50 years now), deserves some reflection: Territorial wars are like land feuds on a smaller scale. And land feuds bring only violence, killings, hatreds that are passed through the generations to the families concerned. Both lose out. Wiser people in the meanwhile focus on something that is far more important than land: education and increased income earning capacity, so that ultimately they can if they want buy ten times the land in question.,
Land feuds at the family level provide important lessons on the Kashmir dispute: no one can deny that this feud has cost both countries increased violence, killings and hatreds that have been passed through generations of governments. It is time to end this dispute, let the status quo rest where it is, and let us hold our respective governments responsible for what they should be doing: trying to improve the economic well-being and social and cultural progress in their respective countries.
This brings me to the other aspect of the Kashmir dispute: the right of self-determination for the average Kashmiri. Neither the Pakistan government nor the Indian government is willing to give them this right - otherwise they would hold a referendum on their part of Kashmir to let them decide their future.
So, there are no great moral issues at stake in Kashmir. Only two small minded governments who are more interested in retaining control over this piece of land than they are in the high moral principles (``self-determination`` in case of the Pakistani government, and ``integral part of India`` in case of the Indian government) that they both have talking about for 50 years.

``Democracy`s`` litter:

``Iraqi bodies litter plain as U.S. troops advance

By Luke Baker

NEAR NAJAF, Iraq, March 23 (Reuters) - Burnt out vehicles and incinerated bodies littered a plain in central Iraq on Sunday after U.S. forces overwhelmed Iraqi militia fighters in a battle south of the holy city of Najaf.``(AP)

Salute to our C`nC -- Heil Hitler

tahmed32 @ # 32:

I agree with you, but the point I made in my couple of posts were on different accounts:

1. Indians on this website routinely claim Pakistanis are extremists. I told them its Pakistanis who are watching Indian movies despite our having a stronger reason (their part in East Pakistan debacle) to hate them. OTOH, Indians have totally boycotted Pakistani products.

Point: If Pakistanis can be called extremists then Indians are much more extremists then we are.

2. Indians are constantly mentioning Pakistan`s backstabbing them in Kargil as if we are the most guiltiest party in the world on this account. I mentioned why stop at Kargil. Lets us go back a little in Siachin and then in East Pakistan. Pakistanis have every reason to believe that Indians are bigger backstabbers.

Points: Indians are not only more extremists then we are, they are also bigger backstabbers.

3. I also mentioned, and this I have been mentioning in all my posts relating to Kashmir, whereas Pakistanis only talk about the rights of and voice of Kashmiris, Indians only talk about Kashmir as a Landmass i.e. Atoot Ang and such like.

Points: Indians are not only more extremists then us and bigger backstabbers, they are also inhumane - having no regards for human values.

As a result, Indians have destroyers of the symbol of secularism in India in power through popular vote, backstabbed us again at the time of our focus on War against Terrorism on our western borders and within our interiors by amassing troops on our eastern border and have given an OK signal to the pogrom of Muslims in India (Gujrat and Kashmir).

Btw, I watch Indian movies, have not backstabbed and have not insulted any Indian ever in the real life.

I just request a bit of introspection on part of our respected Indian friends on this forum. No hard feelings please.

Ahmedzai # 24

`As regards to back-stabbing, why stop at Kargil? Let us go back in history - how about Indian back-stabbing in East Pakistan? `

Not to split the hair, but back-stabbing usually means a covert treachery, while overtly being friendly. That is why Kargil was back-stabbing and Bangla desh was not. In the first case, Vajpai and Musharraf`s legal Boss, were trying to build a friendship while Musharraf was weilding the knife behind, both Sharif`s and well as Vajpai`s back. In the second case India and Pakistan were openly hostile and India took advantage of Pakistan army`s brutalisation of its Majority population the Bengalis.

As far as Saichin, there was on LOC and for good reason. That area is climatically one of the most hostile areas in the world. The Pakistani again, were covertly laying claim to the area by issuing permits to foreigners to ski there The Indians put a stop to that by occupying it. However, I think the Pakistanis in this case have the last laugh, because Indian is spending a fortune in money and ruined lives in defending that wasteland.

Your comparrison of the communal parties of India and Pakistan is also on the shaky ground for several reasons. The people in power what ever they profess openly brutalise the powerless, if they think they have a reason, and that they can get away with it. Thus congress the so called secular party under the `progressive leader` Rajiv Gandhi was as brutal against the Sikhs as communal Modi against the Muslims. Similarly the moderate PPP under rising star leader of Pakistan was openly supportive of the general`s brutalisation of the Bengalis as long as it assured his coronation as the prime minister.

mohar11 @ # 31:

I agree lot of things happened in 90s - Babri Mosque was destroyed, Muslims were killed in Bombay riots and in Kashmir, Indians elected fanatics and anti-secularism element to power, that fanatics in power began officially supporting the minority Northern Alliance against Pakhtoons.

Yes, a combination of all these events could have triggered anti-Indianism, but do read my response to tahmed.

#32 by tahmed32
//...It is time to end this dispute, let the status quo rest where it is, and let us hold our respective governments responsible for what they should be doing...//

Exactly my point. This is a land dispute first and last. To sugarcoat it with varying sermons of morality is meaningless.

Time to move on. Like India and China have moved on from their land disputes. Like China and Taiwan have moved on. Like countless other such land disputes have been moth-balled for greater interests of both parties.

This is perfectly acceptable for Indian public at large and its government: LOC = Border.

But I am not sure Pakistani Army will ever accept such a position. There in lies the trouble.

It seems the eagle is finding out that taking on the mice is not without pain after all. The mice are showing some teeth and are refusing to behave like lambs in putting down there weapons and walking into the hold. More American soldiers killed and captured.

However, the bottom line still is that Saddam is going to get his A$$ whipped. It might not be as neat and clean as the last gulf war, but the end result will be that Saddam and his sons will be killed or captured.

ahmedzai #28,
``India backstabbing Pakistan in Bangladesh ..!!!!``

Ahmedzai, Come out of your dreams and start smelling coffee. Talk to any Bangladeshi. Talk to few of your own country men (and women).
You will find that Pakistan stabbed itself in foot and in bottom. Stop blaming India for the mess you created in Bangladesh.

As Ajeet already pointed out, when Pakistani PM was talking of peace, his army chief was plotting Kargil. Can you give such examples from anywhere else in world? Can one ever discuss peace now with any other Pakistani prime minister or president? Who knows that his deputy is not plotting another Kargil on us!

Ajeet @ # 33:

By your admission then, Indians should not accuse all Pakistanis as back-stabbers. They should go ahead with negotiations with PML Q (the over-whelming majority of which are Nawaz`s former party members).

Btw, I would define back-stabbing as a stab in the back of a person when he is looking in exactly the opposite direction of the stabber. According to this definition then, India back-stabbed us while:

1. We were looking in another direction of managing East Pakistan situation,

2. we were involved in Afghan war of the 80s (Siachin, where Indian point of view of Pakistanis issuing licenses is extremely far-fetched an idea) and

3. we were and are still involved in fighting terrorism (amassing troops on our Eastern frontier thus diverting our attention).

So by the way of these definitions, Indians can call our Musharraf as a back-stabber, but we can call all the Indians as back-stabbers because they have elected different Governments in power who have all harmed us while our focus was/is somewhere else.

This is for your introspection alone. No hard feelings please.

veeresh

You forgot to mention its not just the bald eagle circling overhead, there is also the Saudi falcon out on the hunt.

The Saudi riyal supposedly funded the other daal mohammads` nuclear program, the 80s-90s jihad and Al Qaeda. The Saudi riyal is a pernious currency which has persuaded a number of daal mohammad Bangladeshis to disown their own heritage, Tagore, then what to say of Hindus.

The other Arabian currencies have contributed their mite too, apart from providing easy convertability to Dawood Ibrahim types to continue their operations from offshore.

What good is the ephemeral kinship of cricket, teen patti and daal in competition with hard religion and hard currency? Indians should end this habit of disarming ourselves with futile sentiment. Indians should instead build a thick wall between India and Pakistan, get on with our lives and concentrate on strengthening our own currency.

mohar11 #30 Please dont present self-righteous excuses for the hatreds that you and so many other Indians routinely present on chowk. Some of your colleagues - jay and harish_hyd - have even bragged about coming to chowk only to ``bash pakistanis``, which is their way of saying ``insult and putdown pakistanis``, since that is all they can do on the internet. And I suppose the word ``bash`` makes them feel like the macho men that they cant be in real life.
As a result, a powerful medium for building better understanding at the people-to-people level among Indians and Pakistanis, or even for civilized discussion on other topics, is all too often reduced to a garbage dump of petty insults on chowk.
This hatred for pakistanis results from your own psychological shortcomings, and not due to the policies and actions of the respective governments. So try to look into the mirror for the roots of your hatreds, and dont try to escape this reality by pointing to the policies or actions of the pakistani government.
I think certain actions and policies of the indian government stink, as do certain indian individuals on chowk. but this does not cause me to lose respect and appreciation for the hindu religion, or for hindus as a community, or to wish India anything other than a prosperous and peaceful future. Maybe you ought to try this for a few days, and you will find you will still have plenty to talk about on chowk.

ajeet #37 I think Saddam got his as$ whipped on the very first day, from all indications, and was (according to Dawn, but not on official US accounts) was seen taken away on a stretcher with an oxygen mask. Given the pain and misery his has caused to literally hundreds of thousands of people, I think this is one death or injury for which I will not feel too sorry.
There is an ancient curse which goes like this: May you have a hundred houses. And may each house have a hundred rooms. And may you go from room to room screaming in agony.
I think for Saddam - with his multiple palaces, and now his injuries - this curse may well be coming true.

mohar11 #38 For once I am in complete agreement with you. Cheers!

Ahmedzai #34
Point 1: ``If Pakistanis can be called extremists then Indians are much more extremists then we are. ``
Agreed, but only for the Indians on chowk. And the evidence is there on chowk. See my post #39 to mohar11 on this.
For Indians in general, I would NOT draw any conclusions since I dont think it is realistic to draw such generalizations about an entire community of millions of people.

Point 2: ``Points: Indians ...are also bigger backstabbers. ``
Disagree, to the extent Kargill did represent backstabbing of the Lahore peace process by our military. Vajpayee was visiting Pakistan on a piece mission, and there is no question our military sabotaged the process. The blame rests with the generals, however, and it is wrong to blame all Pakistanis for this. By the same token it is wrong to blame Indians for Bangladesh and Siachin - also, to be fair there was no peace process underway in either case that was sabotaged as a result.

Points 3: ``Points: Indians are .... also inhumane - having no regards for human values.``
Disagree 100%. This is a subjective generalization. The human psyche does not change at the national borders. While we all hope for the evolution of human societies towards greater respect for life, these are complex issues that cannot be reduced to such simple generalizations.

While I disagree with you on the above points, I do share your desire for a more peaceful subcontinent. What I find appalling is the presence of posters on chowk who gloat about problems on the other side of the border and viciously attack pakistanis (we have a couple of pakistanis who do the same to indians, but much fewer for some reason - I dont think the number of posters here is large enough to draw any general conclusions about the indian community, however).

#36 by ahmadzai
//..Points: Indians are not only more extremists then us and bigger backstabbers, they are also inhumane - having no regards for human values...//

Congrats - you proved your ``points`` beautifully. Now, I am convinced - we Indians are extremists extraordinaire, much more than pakistanis could ever be.

Now, all you have to do is convince the INS and the rest of the world.

Ahmedzai # 41
Your arguments are illogical and incoherent.

` By your admission then, Indians should not accuse all Pakistanis as back-stabbers. They should go ahead with negotiations with PML Q (the over-whelming majority of which are Nawaz`s former party members). `

We do not accuse all Pakistanis as back stabbers. However PML Q is a puppet government whose strings are in the hands of Musharraf. As long as the army is the real power in Pakistan, there can be no negotiating with any government, because these governments can not deliver on the agreements.

When there is a freely elected government in Pakistan, I am sure any Indian government will negotiate with them.

As far as the rest of your post you seem to be saying that since you were busy doing something else the Indians took advantage of you and there fore it is back stabbing.

As I said in my last post, when you have an enemy in front of you, you should not be looking any where else. You should be paying attention to the enemy. If you don`t do that then you are a fool, because the enemy will take advantage of you if he can. That is not back stabbing, that is using enemy`s weakeness to defeat him.

As far as the last para where you are claiming that Indian governments have harmed you, believe me, most Indians and the governments do not want to deal with Pakistan. If Pakistanis stay within their border and leave India alone, India will leave Pakistan alone.

But the problem is that Pakistanis keep taking `panga` with India and then get burnt.

````Allies Hit Setbacks on Road to Baghdad

By CALVIN WOODWARD
.c The Associated Press

Iraq used ambushes and even fake surrenders to kill and capture U.S. troops Sunday, inflicting the first significant casualties on the allied forces driving toward Baghdad. U.S. war leaders declared the invasion on target despite the bloody setbacks.````(AP)

road to hell is paved with good intentions.......or bad intentions --

Dear Mr. Ahmadzai

Sir, your knowledge of the other issues like UN resolutions, 1971 war etc also appears to be as sketchy as your knowledge of the Siachin issue. After reading some of your analogies and arguments, I have serious doubts if you know the stuff you are talking. Some of your analogies, as some Chowkies have already pointed out, are so preposterous that any bright teenager with reasonably developed critical faculties could shred them to pieces. The confusion of ideas and befudding of issues points out towards an emotional mind, which though admirable in certain cases, is not exactly a substitute for rational thinking.

PS Let me aver, nevertheless, that I fully endorse your laudable emphasis on introspection.

``No evidence of Nuclear, Biological or Chemical WMDs found in Iraq`` --

but plenty of Weapons of OIL for -- Texas Reconstruction -- found alright -

- guess the Low IQ man`s ``Intelligence`` didn`t KNOW that --

... not a ``War of Liberaton`` after all -- a beautiful War of -- OIL Expropriation -- indeed.

it IS the OIL stupid....

Various interacts . . .

a) I dont want to get drawn into the yo mama/my mama bigger stuff wrt India/Pakistan.

b) What I wanted to put across with this article is that I don`t think it is/was correct on anybody`s part to assume an ``after victory`` scenario for the US/UK troops.

c) The reference to Vietnam was more to put across a prolonged scenario, which may not be only within mainland Iraq. It could be anywhere in the region, from the Med to the Indian Ocean.

d) It was also to put across that the mass popular uprising in favour of US/UK troops, may not occur, will not occur.

e) And finally, long ago I realised that generalising about people by race, colour, country was not such a smart thing to do. There would be other parameters, and I found that people who had travelled (as different from tourists . . .) were often simply better human beings.

Thank you all, and as events unfold in nearby Iraq, here is one feedback not making it to the media:- where are the reports on the dissensions about whose troops are getting to go forward on the ground?

Really, this is one time I am sograteful for the multiplicity of news channels in India . . .

Tahmed #47

I have seen the reports about Saddam being taken out on a stretcher, but I don`t know how credible they are. If he is actually out of circulation, then another myth that Bush and company have floated that the iraqi government will fall like a house of cards, as soon as he is gone, is just a myth. The iraqis seem to be putting up a credible front.

More evidence of ``respect`` for hindu community-

24 Kashmiri pandits massacred in south Kashmir...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2879607.stm

#39 by tahmed32
//...I think certain actions and policies of the indian government stink, as do certain indian individuals on chowk.but this does not cause me to lose respect and appreciation for the hindu religion, or for hindus as a community..//

Gee - thanks man! We idol-worshippers are very grateful to you for such generosity and understanding. I was really worried what would happen if someday, you do lose respect for hindu religion because of the stinky actions and policies of Indin Gov`t and other Indian hate-mongers in Chowk.

So - it is a huge relief to know at least one Paki hasn`t lost respect for hindu community. But that`s hardly any consolation to our hindu a**es. You see - we still have got 14 million other pakis ( only 10% of Pakis are extremists, as admitted by Mushy Almighty Himself ) to worry about.

So please pardon us if we hindus sound a little ``self-righteous`` and display a little ``psychological shortcomings``. You see - there is a Jihad declared on us by 14 million strong army of the faithful. Then there is Mushy, the Mighty who sometimes fancies ``unconventional`` wars on us.

So what can we hindu cowards do? Some of us become self-righteous, others hate-mongers. But it is all our fault. We know it. So please, forgive us.

mohar11 #53 ``We idol-worshippers are very grateful to you for such generosity and understanding.``
Good. You can ridicule this ``generosity and understanding`` if you wish. The ridicule (or appreciation) of individuals whom I can only consider to be morons means nothing to me. Nor will my views on respect and appreciation for all religions and cultures change simply because this same respect is denied by individuals like you to the religion or culture to which I was born.

tahmad #27: ``So please never, ever, make such generalizations.``

Can I ask you a simple question: Why are you always so uptight?

You need to learn to chill out and stop trying to act as the Chowk police (unless you have been given that position by the Chowk Staff). People are just presenting their opinion here, having some fun, learning a few things, and un-learning a few others. They are expressing thier own views, not yours. You can take them or leave them, but cannot try to tell them to do this or not do that.

So I will continue to make generalizations, whenever I feel like it. I would advise you to just skip over my posts.....

ajeet #52 Actually, I think the Iraqi resistance is pretty much folding like a house of cards. In just three days of ground war, the US is 300 miles into Iraqi territory - this is incredible progress by any historical standard (e.g. after the invasion of Normandy, the allies had progressed a mere 2 miles in the first three days, and even the Blitzkrieg of the Germans in Poland and France was at snail`s pace).
Also, before the war, the major issue for the US was to try and avoid large numbers of Iraqi prisoners since that would tie up too many US troops. So the strategy was to seek ``capitulation`` (rather than ``surrender``) with leaflets thrown over Iraq advising Iraqi soldiers that this would mean they simply leave their weapons and go home. By all indications that is what has happened, and the resistance and casualties (on both sides) have been far lower relative to progress made than any of the vocal critics (including some of my friends on chowk) were talking about before the war. And I dont think anyone expected Saddam would be taken out of the picture in the first few hours of the war. One lady (maryam, her article is a few steps below this one) was predicting 500,000 civilian causalites and others were backing this figure as being based on some authoritative prediction. Even the Iraqi information minister himself reported on TV only 307 civilian wounded and three dead (and perhaps these include Saddam and one of his murderous sons). Neighboring Jordan has refugee facilities set up, and not a single Iraqi has yet bothered to leave Iraq.
This is not mitigate the loss of life, since even one life is precious. But I think that whatever the politics, the fact is that the US is doing a very good job at conducting this war even though the critics will never acknowledge it.

#55 by tahmed32 on March 23, 2003 8:32pm PT

[The ridicule (or appreciation) of individuals whom I can only consider to be morons means nothing to me.]

Ditto for everyone else here, Mr. Tahmed. And there are a lot of us out here who consider you to be exactly that. Thanks.

Preamble as postscript . . . sorry for the cut-paste, but isn`t this getting repetitive?

+++

The 14th Sikh Regiment left Jullundur on the 20th of February for Iraq and proceeded to Baghdad, where they were detailed for garrison duty. Later in the year the 14th Sikhs moved to Kut al Amara, where they were employed in closing down the military cantonment and demolishing the post. Early in 1923 the 14th Sikhs were back again in Baghdad and were responsible for the protection of the Royal Air Force aerodrome.

At this time tribesmen in Kurdistan, under the leadership of Shaikh Mahmud, were actively hostile to the British administration. They had met with considerable success in the autumn of 1922 and the British forces had not been able to deal with them during the winter on account of the bad weather. In February troops were urgently required in Kirkuk and ``A`` and ``B`` Companies, under Captains Maclaren and Spankie,, were detailed for this role. The two companies were transported there by air on the 21st of February. This was the first occasion in history on which a large body of troops had been carried by air for military operations. The two companies, in full fighting equipment, were moved in nine troop-carrying aeroplanes and the actual journey in the air took less than an hour, whereas by march route: Kirkuk could not have been reached in less than a week.

The 14th Sikhs took part in the punitive operations directed by the Commander of the Royal Air Force in Iraq against Shaikh Mahmud and his forces in May and June, 1923. They joined a column under Colonel B. Vincent and concentrated in Kirkuk. The column marched from Kirkuk on the 12th of May and for a fortnight traversed the Kurdistan country, making many long marches. However, no serious fighting took place, and no casualties were suffered. The column returned to Kirkuk in June and then dispersed, although the 14th Sikhs remained at Kirkuk until the end of September.

For their services in Kurdistan, Major Story received brevet promotion to lieutenant-colonel and Subadar Bogh Singh was awarded the Military Cross. The Regiment arrived back in Baghdad in October and remained there until its return to India at the beginning of 1924.

+++

``the West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do.``
----------

Samuel P. Huntington

+++

#32 Reply Tehmed32


nazarhayatkhan #26 you write ``Even when there is nothing on your mind, she is on the defensive and avoids talking to a stranger. ``

Maybe my honesty lets my inner thoughts slip out but it is a universal phenomenon. I find the `Realtionships` subject interesting and take it as a science. The subject is full of intangibles, delicate nuances, electro-magnetic waves, emotions, body talk, urges, attractions, obsessions, fixations, desires though nothing much may be visible or quantifiable.

Would you believe once my New York friend told me that when she is undergoing periods, even an odd taxi driver tries to make a pass at her. Because she exudes such a aroma around her.

#55 by tahmed32
//...Nor will my views on respect and appreciation for all religions and cultures change ... blah .... blah....//

You are such a great guy. Pakistan is full of such great guys like you, it`s just that some of us ``inhumane`` hindus are such ``morons`` who just cannot appreciate your greatness. So you will have to keep blowing your own trumpet until we get it.

Like - here is an example of your respect for all communities including hindus:

24 Kashmiri pandits massacred in south Kashmir...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2879607.stm

nazarhayatkhan #60 On the subject of phremones and such: only last week they came up with a study saying that the male sweat is a turn on for women.

Indeed, I am still struggling to really understand the way women are wired. I discovered how little men know after living with one of these things - namely, my own dear wife - for two decades. I learnt: Dont ever try to fake it with a woman. Women have an x-ray going straight into your brain and can read your thoughts like a radiologist reads the x-ray.

So, I am not surprised that male sweat gets women excited whereas for a man sweat just stinks. I firmly believe women have powers of seeing, smelling and sixth sensing, that men cannot begin to understand.

mohar11 @ # 44:

``Now, all you have to do is convince the INS and the rest of the world. ``

The initiators of Nazi practices i.e. The US and UK are themselves being proven wrong on Iraq by the rest of the world.

Increasingly, Bush and Company are being equated with terrorists. If they are wrong on Iraq, they were also wrong to begin INS registration process. You know it and every one knows it. I have to prove nothing. It is already proved.

Btw, my response was only for Indians to introspect ;)

tahmed @ # 46:

I do not agree with your line of thinking and defending an argument.

On generalization, your points are redundant, because (1) I have myself said in various earlier posts that we should not generalize, (2) I have admitted in my previous posts that I am not an extremist and that I enjoy watching Indian movies, have great respect for Hinduism as a Way of Life, etc. and (3) I am responding to an average Indian`s belief that Pakistanis are generally extremists.

Despite my submissions above, some level of generalization has to be made to further an argument, otherwise this interactive board would be useless. This is not a site to resolve inter-personal issues. Nor is this a dating site. Moreover, generally people do not come on this interactive boards to participate in popularity contest.

You wrote:
``Points 3: ``Points: Indians are .... also inhumane - having no regards for human values.``
Disagree 100%. This is a subjective generalization. The human psyche does not change at the national borders. While we all hope for the evolution of human societies towards greater respect for life, these are complex issues that cannot be reduced to such simple generalizations. ... I don`t think the number of posters here is large enough to draw any general conclusions about the indian community, however). ``

You are wrong. If you take the articles getting published in Indian print and debates in Indian electronic media, plus take Indian lobby at work in the UK and the USA then you would note that there is sufficient support to anti-Pakistani sentiments being promoted by extremist Indian Government and that Indians have fallen for it.

I mean what else could be the reason that so many Pakistani bashers have gotten together on Chowk like you said. Are Pakistanis on Chowk uglier or better looking than Indians? Have we come from some outer planet? Is this site making them green with envy? Is Chowk staff peeving them off? Or what? You tell me.

I have not been here on this site for long. But I have noticed one thing. Whenever a Pakistani would like to respond to an Indian accusations or a point of view, soon he will be branded a Jihadi, extremist or one having no knowledge of certain aspect. I mean what the he*k? Who are these Indians on this Chowk if you want me to believe that they are exceptions?

Boss, you have to agree that there is something drastically wrong with Indians these days. Their being anchored on Kargil is no excuse. That was another of my argument. We could have remained anchored on East Pakistan debacle for that matter and UK could have remained anchored on USA`s war of independence.

Finally, go on a comparable Indian site and see if Pakistanis are leaving any offensive comments there.

Harish/Romair: When I get both of you unhappy at the same time, I am clearly onto something. Anyway, I will say this about Romair (and there is no bias hear even though it will appear like that to some folks on chowk): he is not as vicious as harish_hyd. Harish proudly claims he comes to chowk for ``paki-bashing`` (thus overcoming his his need to be a macho man which he obviously cant be in real life). Romair makes no such claims. He simply makes meaningless statements like ``Canadians are more friendly than Pakistanis``.
Oh, and I wont skip your posts, gentlemen. You are too much fun for that.

mohar1 #62 Please dont try to hide behind your community by misquoting me on ``inhuman`` hindus. I never said that. And if you dont like what I write, dont change what I wrote to ``blah..blah``. You sound like a 2 year old when you do that.

ahmedzai #64 I agree with you that there are far more Indians posting insults to pakistanis on chowk than vice versa. That is a fact, as one can easilyu see on chowk. Indeed, I have been noting this point for months now (long before you came to chowk). I really dont know the reason, although I have some possibilities:
(a) its an ethnic characteristic: that is, some communities (e.g. south indians, and I know that some of the most offensive individuals like jay are south indian, and some really friendly chaps are panjabis) being more querrelsome by nature than others (some indeed even explicitly bragging that they come to chowk for ``paki bashing``). But then we are again in the land of generalities which I have learnt by experience are very misleading. So I reject this explanation.
(b) Public opinion in India is generally more anti-pakistan than vice versa: Maybe this is true, and there is a general anti-pakistan public opinion in India, molded perhaps by things that are not paralleled on the pakistani side - like feelings of being stood up through partition in 1947, general resentment against muslims as representing an outside influence on indigenous culture. You seem to think this is the case, and there is some possibility you are right. Although, even if this is true, public opinion does tend to be fickle and if tomorrow the two governments patch up public opinion will go the other way.

I think the important thing is not to fall into the same trap as some of these individuals whose petty insults and putdowns of pakistanis, our culture and our religion both you and I decry. Let us try to always remind us about the positive aspects of India and Indian culture: and indeed there are many. From the incredibly rich and unique history, to great ideas like that of nonviolence that Gandhi gave the world (and were even accepted by Ghaffar Khan I believe who is from your province). I am not going to let a few pakistan-hating jerks on chowk take away from me this love for this ancient land and culture of India.

#65 by tahmed32 on March 24, 2003 7:32am PT
//.. Please dont try to hide behind your community .....blah.. blah//

Am I (hiding behind my community)?

Silly me! How dare I? That privilege is reserved for only some people. How dare a hindoo claim protection behind his community?

( I like what you write, man - I like them very much. I just don`t want to repeat your entire paragraph of wisdom all over again in my reply. So I use ``blahs`` indicating that there are more of the same for any interested reader. I see you don`t like such laziness on my part. Well - tough luck mate!)

And I see there is not a whimper about the ``respect`` those 24 hinoods got when they were massacred in Kashmir. Any other pakis here ready to offer their collecetive shoulders for us hinoods to cry on?

After all - hindus got lot of sermons on death of secularism in India when muslim minorities got butchered in Gujrat. We deserved such sermons ( even though it came from the most un-deserving source ) - we failed to protect our minorities.

But no such sermons were being issued when Hindu minority gets butchered in Kashmir. No corodile tears were being shed how secularism in India would be affected by such massacres. No call to ``introspection`` was issued.

Well - hindus who are such extremists, they deserve it, don`t they? They deserve to be killed until they hand over the real-estate of Kashmir to the its rightful owners - Pakistanis.

mohar11 #68 When you cut and paste things about innocent people getting killed in order to score ``holier than thou`` points on chowk, as you do, then you are merely exploiting their real life misery. This line of thinking is not much different, ironically, that the line of thinking of those who attack innocent people in the name of some political cause. That is why I ignore such cut and pastes by chowk posters trying to use the real life tragedies of people for to score points in their petty quarrels on chowk.
Thank you and I must end discussion with you on this board now. Have a nice day.

#64 by ahmadzai
//..Btw, my response was only for Indians to introspect ;) ..//

Yes, your highness - that`s exactly what we are doing right now - ``introspecting`` over dead-bodies of 24 Indians massacred in Kashmir.

What else can we do anyway? When the victims of unbriddled Jihad and Islamic terrorism are being castigated as extremists extraordnaire , what else can they do really!

We are introspecting now - how we hinoods can become so ``inhuman``!!What have we done - how can the peace-loving, lilly-livered, gentle-souls living in our western border could be so moved to regard us as extremists!!

tahmed32:

Warning - Looooong Post.

The hatred amongst Indians for Pakistanis is a definite product of their extremist Government agenda. In recent years, there is a definite sequence of events, which have made Indian Government very anti-Pakistani to the extent that there is not an iota of doubt in my mind that they have thrust an undeclared war on Pakistan. But ask any Indian and he will start from Kargil.

Kargil has only been made into an excuse by hawks in Indian Government, because of their own embarrassment at lack of preparation in the first place and coffin scandal at the latter. They did in fact invite General Musharraf for peace talks in Agra afterwards.

During the meetings at Agra, every thing was going right till the time General had a breakfast meeting with the Indian journalists. If you look at the proceedings of that informal meeting (please get a video if you can), all the journalists in the end enthusiastically agreed with General`s (Pakistan`s) stance on Kashmir being the core problem. The situation had turned quite embarrassing for hawks in Indian Government on that particular occasion. For example in the end, you would hear the journalists say some thing to the extent, ``we agree with you that Kashmir is a major issue and has to be resolved first``. At this, you would hear the General responding, ``well then its for you to tell your Government to recognize this as a core issue``. Journalists began laughing and supported the General`s viewpoint whole-heartedly.

This acceptance of the Pakistani stance on core issue by Indian non-government press, and by corollary its general public, lead Advani to interfere the following day and no joint declaration was allowed to be signed off.

Agra was a turning point where the Indian hawks decided that Pakistan would not budge an inch on Kashmir so they had to make their position inflexible too.

This was followed by 9/11 and Indian Governemnt tried to capitalize on it. General out-smarted them, thus causing another irritation.

Subsequent to 9/11, the undeclared war on Pakistan could be considered on a fair ground as Indians perceive that Pakistan is running a proxy war in Kashmir. It amassed 1 million troops on border citing events that were of doubtful origins in any case (e.g. all the attackers on Indian Parliament had no obvious target as seen in the video clips and I recommend you obtain that too for an analysis, running here and there without any objective. Moreover, all of them were killed. Therefore, no evidence could come out of them from where they came. Recall that earlier, there was a hijack hoax that had failed miserably). These events did not go in favor of India as much as it wanted to.

Economic pressure was put on Pakistan e.g. banning PIA flights over India. Pakistan retaliated and 16 or so PIA flights suffered as against over 100 Indian. India incurred a bigger loss than we did.

The amassing of troops also backfired in terms of burden on Indian exchequer and sagging of morale in Indian army. All these reports have been coming out in Indian media.

Since the US and the West have not stopped supporting the General, The Indian Government is visibly getting more and more irritated.

The general frustration of the failure of their above mentioned measures and many more like these is being wrongly attributed to Kargil alone.

Once again, why invite General to Agra after that episode.

The point is India would like to have peace with Pakistan if we drop Kashmir totally out of agenda. Since Musharraf did not do it, the Hawks got agitated. Generally, Indians are also agitated. Reason is that you get frustrated when you do not have a principled stand.

Because of our principled stand on Kashmir, all we have to do is to keep inviting India for talks. exactly, because of their lack of it, all India has to do is to create excuse after excuse or raise non-issues for not getting into negotiations. Its because of these excuses and non-issues that an average Indian is blitz into brain-washedness over the true picture.

For proof of our principled stand, I would refer you to another interview of General Musharraf by Indian journalists recently, shown on ARY Digital`s European transmissions last week. The Indian journalists were on the offensive to start with regarding Kashmir ``Cross-border terrorism``. But after hearing Musharraf speak on the matter and cross-questioning him, they boldly admitted that Pakistan has valid points. I can get you the details of that interview if you want.

On negotiations on Kashmir, Pakistan will be a winner any time because of the principle. This was proven right when the General had the opportunity to speak to the Indian journalists informally in Agra or formally in Pakistan on two different occasions.

India will always create excuses for going into any kind of negotiations.

Pakistanis (or people like you of Pakistani origin) should never fall for Indian excuses on Kargil.

mohar11 @ # 70:

``Yes, your highness - that`s exactly what we are doing right now - ``introspecting`` over dead-bodies of 24 Indians massacred in Kashmir. ``

Introspection you need badly.When your Government would allow neutral observers and international media in your occupied part of Kashmir then the truth will become known to the world. With 700,000 or so military/para-military deployed and news filtered out only through state controlled sources, you will only get biased information from the valley.

In any case, I regret the crime against humanity. Pakistan has condemned the killing as a worse form of terrorism and all Pakistanis feel sorrow for the loss of valuable human life regardless of religious or ethnic affiliations.

#70 by mohar11
//...When you cut and paste things about innocent people getting killed in order to score ``holier than thou`` points on chowk, as you do, then you are merely exploiting their real life misery...///

Am I exploiting people`s real life misery? I didn`t realize that. Now that you pointed out - yes - I am exploiting misery of people. Because I haven`t seen anybody else writing about such misery of people in Gujrat, Kashmir, Chechnya, Palestine, Iraq or wherever.

I like you man. You are like a pophet - you give us all such good guidance, point out our mistakes.

//...Thank you and I must end discussion with you on this board now. Have a nice day....//
I have heard this before. So long buddy!

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ahmadzai

You seem to carry a great deal of guilt about Kargil. Why? Do you work for Pakistani army?

Ahmedzai #73 I think you and I have a philosophical difference on Kashmir: you think it is worth fighting for, and I do not. Let me make my case very simply: Kashmir is a territorial dispute between two governments, and it is NOT WORTH A SINGLE HUMAN LIFE to try and change the status quo.
Please reflect upon this, and tell me if I am wrong in thinking this way. And if I am, I would like to know why.

#72 by ahmadzai on March 24, 2003 12:27pm PT
//...Introspection you need badly....//

Or else - what? What are you going to do? Send in more killers to massacre more Indians? Issue more threats of ``unconventional`` attack? I think You guys are doing all you can to fulfil your ``thousand cuts`` dream. For us it can`t get any worse than it already is.

Yet - you won`t get the real estate you are so despertely looking for. You can bet your last dollar on this one.

Bush is a TERRORIST -- TERRORIZING the Iraqi CHILDREN asleep at night --

Bush is a WAR CRIMINAL

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Bush is a CRUEL COWARD Draft Dodger -- who used his daddy`s name to protect his ass from Vietnam War -- but is sending someone else`s kid to die for his -- daddy`s fued -- with Saddam Hussein --

-- (he tried to kill my daddy)

squandering billions of -- NOT his Daddy` Money -- but OUR`S -- the hard working American Tax Payers` Money.

#56 by Romair on March 23, 2003 8:32pm PT

Romair, pls do not get annoyed with Tahmed. I`ve just figured out what his problem is.

#66 by tahmed32 on March 24, 2003 7:32am PT

tahmed32:

My deepest sympathies are with you. Here you are, spending some much time and effort to make yourselves heard, and no one`s paying any attention. It`s probably your wife who`s nagging you to the point that you`re losing your sanity, but don`t lose hope yet, you might turn out to be the next Socrates, whose life was beset with much the same problems as yours is. Good luck.

PS: You find my posts funny? I`m happy for y