Miscued Doldrums; The Saga Revisited, The Feud Recreated

I am generally opposed to boycotts in sporting and cultural fields. I will conceed that the anti-apartheid sporting boycott was devastating to the morale of the South African Whites. Apartheid was an extreme case.

Babar

You are absolutely right.

Let us, the people, not lower ourselves to the level of the politicians, foreign office officials, intelligence agencies and religious extremists.

Art & Music are the common heritage of the mankind.

Inspired Inzamam? When was he last inspired?

That apart, the people of the countries manage, merit will surface so if our/your singers are good, then their CDs/cassettes will sell.

Nazarhayathkhan # 2 says . . . ``Art & Music are the common heritage of the mankind.``

Yeah, right. The sanity of men won`t work, the vanity of women shall.

Its not only Indian artistes who are banned in Pakistan, Indian music, Indian films, Indian TV channels, Indian books, Indian goods are banned too. Does the author mention these? No. Why?

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re: why Pak bans artists from India?
I would also like to ask the same questions that Sadna has asked in her post. Why are Indian artists not allowed free access to Pakitan the way Pakistani artists enjoy access to India?
I remember, when i was a kid in Delhi, my dad got hold of some tickets for the Ghazal concert by the maestro Mehndi Hassan. We all enjoyed it very much. I have seen other Qawwals from Pak come and perform at regular intervals. Some of them have a huge following. I also remember the time when Noor Jehan came to India. She was well received.
Now, Pak has never invited the 2 singers who have been extremely popular: Md Rafi and Lata Mangeshwar. Of the 2, one is no more. The other has hit a nadir after singing for decades. Pak`s elite just cannot countenance a famous Indian coming to Pak and perform. Some fear that their music industry will be affected (as if it is doing anything great right now). Others just hate Indians, period. Pak govt did not have problems when Ms Arundhati Roy came to Pak as she was considered a critic of Indian govt. In the field of arts and music, India has a lot more to show than Pak and Pak elite cannot stomach that.
Perhaps one day the realisation will come that Pak music industry needs to work in tandem with India. This will allow it to learn and grow out of its self-imposed isolation.
Sridhar

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re:#10 by Tipu
What the heck is Pak govt protecting? Mediocrity?
Sridhar

Today on NPR, I heard an interview of a Pakistani who was deported from the US because of immigration violations. The interview followed him to his parent`s home in Lahore. What caught my attention was the music that was being played at home. It was Indian hindi filmi music!

post#5
it is indian who banned cricket .we read indian books,see indian movies
i found many things indian made in market such as sari,chadder,cosmatic and many other things.so i don``t agree with you.

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Have you noticed this flawed logic in all Ind - Pak or Hind-Muslim arguments ???

First few punches are thrown by Pak.........but Ind is not supposed to react in the same manner. If it does(say throw one punch to the opponents 10), then some so called intellectual Pakis will point out to another Indian (Gandhi) and suggest we follow that path.(Ofcourse they will soon be joined by eunuch brigade from this side of the border who value a Paki dog`s - literally - life more than that of an Indian soldier`s).

End result ? Dispute/Fight continues.......India loses more men, takes more punches and Pakistan walks away to fight another day. This sickening story repeats.......somebody`s gotta learn and soon.

tenaliramanna #13

I have no problems with cultural figures. Of course you are free to boycott cultural and sports figures associated with the Pakistani religious fringe.

Septran,

I saw an interview with Najam Sethi and he mentioned that he used to import text books for school choldren from india, it was banned. Now the books apparently costs ten times more.

This is the correct pak action. The schools are built to account for WB funding, no teachers appointed, school becomes cattle sheds. For the few schools make the books expensive so that children cannot learn.

Now ask why the children are going to madrassas, because the govt schools are no good.
Time to accept that pak society is going in a direction, set by TNT, an islamic republic, uniquely pakistani, jihadic islam.

Interesting! not many posts from the Pakistani side.

Q: Why wouldn`t Pakistan open up its media or invite Indian artists for live performance?

A: Because nobody in Pakistan would ever listen to Pakistani music or artists any more. Given the ban and all, still most people listen to Indian music, watch their movies etc. The govt. policy is an attempt to protect an endangered specie.

Good article.

IS the ban of Indian art as pervasive as some interactors write? What are some possible actions that Chowk readers can take?

Tehsinabbasi:
I agree with opening Pakistan ope to Indian artists but totally disagree with statements like, ``A: Because nobody in Pakistan would ever listen to Pakistani music or artists any more``. You are generalization too much here in my opinion without considering many facts.

1) Indian media offers nothing in Balochi, Pushtu and Sindhi. That is exclusion of about 25 percent Pakistani population from any serious threat in those language markets. It really boils down to Urdu and Panjabi markets.

2) Within Panjabi markets, Indian artists have no substitute for Ata Ullah Khan or Manssor Malangi because of the accents of Panjabi, west of Jhelum rivers. You may bring 100 artists from India, but will not make a dent in market dominated by Ata Ullah Khan and other artists from that area.

3) The best India can offer against Abida Parveen is Manpreet Akhtar. Both can make dents on the stage with their weights but Abida Parveen can not be wrestled down by Manpreet Akhtar in Saraiki market.

4) Lata, Rafi, Kishore, Mukesh and old Hindi movie was a phenomenon that ended some 20 years ago. The new movies and new singers are no substitute for that era. There used to be 100s of popular Hindi song in Pakistan duriing that period, reduced to 10s now. The Kishore Kumar fans still listen to his songs and not impressed by look alikes like Kumar Sanu. Same goes for other look alikes.

5) Then came ghazal singing popularity by Jagjit, Anup Jhalota and Pankaj Udhas and some equally talented singers in Pakistan. That phenomenon also ended because of video market in which ghazal videos were not possible due to slow background music not suitable for dance and acrobats.

6) Then came qawwali and ghazal singing in chorus or qawwali style, popularized by Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. He ruled that area unchallenged until he lived.

7) During this period craze for Hindi movies started declining and Englsih movie video rentals went up. Now most of the outlets previously surviving exclusively on renting Indian movie videos are becoming mixed. They are renting about half the time Englsih videos and other half Indian and small market for non-movie videos of dramas, sitcoms and stage performances.

8) So we are left with the central Panjab and Urdu speaking market. Opening to Indian media and artists is helpful to both of these areas but our national ideology would like it to favor only one of them.

9) Indian movies are becoming boring and the DVD market for buying them went nowhere in Pakistan. Most DVD sold were those of old famous Hindi movies with newer ones only used to make VHS copies for renting.

10) India has little to offer or compete in Panjabi movie market. India makes about 10 movies in Panjabi per year with only one or two of decent quality. That market has no threat from opening Pakistan to Indian media.

11) The grocery markets in diaspora are open to both products from India and Pakistan and both have about the same quality. Same holds true in open competition if allowed in media market. It will soon be as ccompetitive as pickles (achars) coming from India and Pakistan and competing on the grocery shelfs of Patel Brothers in Jackson Heights.

12) The insecurity and inferiority complex of media products are nothing but complexes. Within less than 5 years of openness, both insecurity and inferiority complex will disappear.

This is one of the most illogical and idiotic articles. The author is aware that the Indian musicians` case is justified. He knows that for several decades, Indians have been letting Pakistani artists earn/augment their living off the Indian market, thanks to the Indians` not reciprocating the Paksitani govt.`s meanness. He surely should realize that eventally even a Gandhi`s patience would run out. If the unilateral favour by the Indians for several decades has not resulted in a reciprocal action by the Pakistanis, what choice the adversely affected Indian artistes had but to seek a reciprocal bycott? That`s how the commerce between any two countries works. Truly, the Indian artists can say:
Hum uff bhi karte hain tau ho jaate hain badnaam
Voh qatl bhi karte hain tau charcha nahin hota!
Incidentally, Indians have given Pakistan MFN status but Pakistan still hasn`t reciprocated that favour. It is willing to pay exhorbitant prices to other countries for its tea, iron, prescription, etc. instead of buying cheaper stuff from India. As the desi saying goes, Pakistan wants to hurt the padosi`s ``bakri`` even if it means destroying its own walls.
And the reason Pakistan is so keen to restart cricket matches with India is not due to any friendly sentiments but because it brings big bucks to Pakistani cricketers.

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One of the best articles I have read in a long time. Really puts things in perspective:

`` SOUTHASIASPHERE
Phoney knights in showy armour

Successful people
Have separate shoes
Some for celebrations
Others for grief
—Govinda Mathur, Bache huye shabda

President Hamid Karzai has more faith in his American guards than in his own people. General Musharraf refuses to speak to an “uncivilised” parliament but courts even lowly Pentagon officials enthusiastically. King Gyanendra has chosen, since 4 October 2002, to walk the treacherous bylanes of state power all alone but he can do nothing about what the US government considers international terrorists. President Chandrika Kumaratunga has very little confidence in the peacemaking abilities of Prime Minister Ranil Wickremesinghe but cannot deny him his moment in the sun due to the pressure of the Washington Consensus. For Begum Khalida Zia of Bangladesh, the motives of anyone opposed to her quixotic politics are suspect, but even she trembles at the Western charge that her country is harbouring Al Qaeda fugitives.

In Uttar Pradesh, Mayawati and Mulayam Singh will lob cheap innuendo at each other but will not do anything to oppose American presence in the region. The Lalooland of Bihar does not even make a claim to political civility – its de facto chief minister graces a political rally to celebrate the power of the stick, presumably because it is useful in electoral politics. But in his rally, Laloo at least showed the courage to stand against American imperialism, even though his actions have very little significance.

Things are not much better in Maharashtra or Gujarat where since saffronites are in control of public life, everyone is disturbingly quiet about the crusade against Muslims in West Asia. A little to the southeast, there is no love lost between the competing claimants of Annadurai’s political legacy in Madras. Chandrababu Naidu’s courtesy towards the leadership of the Congress is largely a reflection of the political reality in his state. His Telugu Desam cannot run the Andhra administration by antagonising Sonia Gandhi’s sympathisers in the Hyderabad secretariat – the keeper of Telugu pride needs them only to check the powerful challenge of the Bharatiya Janata Party. But all of them are keeping mum about the new hegemon in the region – the United States of America.

For the elite the best guarantee against a challenge is an American insurance policy

Even though democracy survives in some form or the other in more parts of South Asia now than ever before, popular governments have failed to transform the ruling classes of this region. Not unlike their feudal predecessors, the elite of even democratic regimes from Kashmir to Colombo continues to conduct itself with the arrogance of “since I am the boss around here, I know best what is best for you all”. Despite democracy and the freedom of press, dissent can still put you at peril – even a historian of Romila Thapar’s standing has to learn to live with state-inspired public ridicule. So the masses have learnt to accept the hard reality of American arrogance simply because the elite has ignominiously acquiesced.

American eminence
A division in the ranks of the ruling elite has often led to cataclysmic events. The creation of Pakistan was largely a result of mutual suspicion between the Muslim and Hindu intelligentsia of the Indian National Congress, epitomised by a clash of the personalities of two barristers – Jawaharlal Nehru and Muhammad Ali Jinnah. The birth of Bangladesh became a foregone conclusion the moment the feudocratic military establishment of Islamabad refused to deal with Bengali winners of electoral politics from East Pakistan on equal terms. Among other factors, the demagoguery of Sinhala politicos ensured the rise of Tamil insurgency in Jaffna. The effects of these conflicts continue to afflict all South Asians to this day.

In a socially integrated region such South Asia, it is perhaps natural that intrastate conflicts have interstate ramifications, but when divided rulers exploit solidarity, the unity of the people often proves to be a curse. Islamabad cannot keep itself aloof from what is happening inside Kashmir or Kandahar even if it wants to. Indira Gandhi had to invade East Pakistan to liberate Bangladesh. But her son’s compulsions in Jaffna were different – Rajiv Gandhi had to dispatch peacekeeping forces to Sri Lanka to prevent the creation of an independent Tamil state.

Whether it is the fate of Lhotshampas languishing in the refugee camps of eastern Nepal or the lot of the Biharis of Bangladesh braving the crossing of India to make it to Pakistan, the destinies of all South Asians are inextricably intertwined. Unfortunately, the ruling elite of Colombo, Dhaka, Islamabad, Kathmandu, New Delhi and Thimpu does not appreciate this, mainly because it lives in the gated ghettos of capital cities. And it has increasingly begun to think that the best guarantee against any challenge from the people is an American insurance policy, bought by unquestioningly supporting the Bush-Blair duo, even in its own neighbourhood.


Garner and Chalabi team up in Baghdad.
Politicians take all the blame – much of it well deserved, no doubt – but other constituents of the ruling elite cannot be exonerated of wilful failure on all fronts. It is said that the market integrates, literature opens the mind, the media liberates and the intelligentsia encourages tolerance. Perhaps. But these ‘agents of change’ are doing anything but. They behave more Bushy than Tony. Then why bemoan the fact that it takes a bludgeoning from the global bully to make AB Vajpayee and MZ Jamali talk to each other? Is it not a fact that were it not for American pressure, the Tamil Tigers would have withdrawn from the negotiating table long ago, and the Maoists of Nepal would still be ransacking and ravaging the countryside at will?

Let us face it: the South Asian elite is too disconnected from the masses to understand their trials and tribulations. Lacking indigenous tools of comprehension, it needs American prisms to make sense of its own surroundings. And then, inevitably, Pentagon ‘persuasion’ to act on contradictions within its own societies.

Blustering bourgeoisie
Farid Zakaria, editor of Newsweek International, is a typical American republican who places personal liberty high in the order of priority, way above the need of democratic politics. Zakaria hails from India, has a Muslim name, and has no com-punction in manufacturing intellectual apologies for the aggressive neoliberalism of his adopted country. American conservatives could not have wished for a better poster-boy for their post-11 September game plan in West Asia.

On one of his tours of duty to New Delhi, recalls Zakaria, “A friend of my father’s took me aside and he said, ‘I want you to know how proud we all are of you.’ That’s the great thing about India. Success in America isn’t considered selling out. They all think you have made it!” Zakaria perhaps tried to hide his shame behind a sign of exclamation. But there is no revelation in what his father’s friend said – most members of the South Asian elite are so ashamed of being born in this region that all their energy is wasted in escaping from here rather than working to bring about meaningful change.

With such hollow men and empty women in positions of leadership, no South Asian country can hope to offer even a symbolic resistance if the two ‘butchers’ of Baghdad were to decide tomorrow that ‘regime change’ in this region is a necessary condition for the betterment of this region.

In the face of dire warning from invaders, Iraqis, to their credit, are still refusing to accept Ahmad Chalabi, a front man for Jay Garner. But if Farid Zakaria were to follow the warships of victorious Marines into Bombay, he would find friends of his father’s falling over each other to garland him at the Gateway of India. They would not be doing anything new though. South Asians have greeted all outside victors with much gusto through the chequered history of this region. The British ruled with the support of native rulers, ‘native informers’ and native clerks. The freedom movement was a challenge to the continuation of their domination, but the partition of British India affected people’s perspectives. The class-war in the Subcontinent lost before it could begin in right earnest – infantile patriotism ousted it from centre stage.

For the feudal-military elite of Pakistan, hawking the fear of India is the easiest way of maintaining its hold on power. Courting America is a logical corollary. It is not very different in India where ‘security risk’ has been elevated to such levels that to question it is tantamount to sacrilege. Ironically, the more India and Pakistan spend on ‘defence’, the shriller the call for even more resources for weapons of mass destruction. Perhaps because the elite of both countries knows that their progeny will not face the consequences of their monumental follies. Children of Pakistani and Indian bourgeoisie will be waving the star-spangled banner, just as their forefathers did the union jack.

Quite clearly, the Nehruvian design of producing indigenous ruling elite by cloning Oxford, Harvard and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology has failed to deliver the desired results. All that those institutions have done is to produce either intellectual coolies for Western capitalism or to widen the gap between the ‘best’ and the rest. The chasm between brown sahibs and ethnic boxwallas on the one hand and agricultural labour and the coolies on the other has widened rather than decreased. Feudal lords at least had a vested interest in retaining their ties to the land; the professional elite would rather
forget that bond.

The stress on ‘quality of leadership’ has failed to produce another Mahatma, one more Qaid, or another ekushe uprising. Meanwhile, Christina Rocca scolds Vajpayee, Musharraf, Wickremesinghe and Khalida Zia like so many little children. Islamabad and New Delhi may resume their relationship without the Marines barging in, but the Marines may yet come if the South Asian elite refuses to be assimilated in the society that has put it in a position of power.

The leaders might do well to remember that the people have very little to lose. Nobody fought for Saddam Hussein even though the Iraqis lost their country to the hated Anglo-Americans; it can only be worse if a similar misfortune were to befall South Asia.

– CK Lal (http://www.himalmag.com/2003/may/southasiasphere.htm)

This banning of Indian musical stars in Pakistan is stupid.

Especially for those stars that already happen to be as popular with the

ban in place.

The first thing that should be encouraged at the moment is the

resumption of cricket and artistic exchange.

Ras

Romair:
``One of the best articles I have read in a long time. Really puts things in perspective``
Is the dye-in-the-wool militarist now embracing a marxist-communist worldview?

Romair # 25

`` President Hamid Karzai has more faith in his American guards than in his own people. ``

Tell anything you want about American power. American special forces who guard Karzai are among the best in the world.

`` General Musharraf refuses to speak to an “uncivilised” parliament but courts even lowly Pentagon officials enthusiastically. ``

I have never been a fan of Mushy. You were the one singing the praises of Mushy.

`` But in his rally, Laloo at least showed the courage to stand against American imperialism, even though his actions have very little significance.``

Because he runs a state that lacks basic law and order. I hope the irony is not lost on everyone reading the article.

`` Farid Zakaria, editor of Newsweek International, is a typical American republican who places personal liberty high in the order of priority, way above the need of democratic politics. Zakaria hails from India, has a Muslim name, and has no com-punction in manufacturing intellectual apologies for the aggressive neoliberalism of his adopted country. American conservatives could not have wished for a better poster-boy for their post-11 September game plan in West Asia.``

From what I heard of him Farid Zakaria`s views are in perfect tandem with Colin Powell. I am extremely happy and proud at his success. He is international editor of Newsweek. He is a free man. He is well educated person. Whether I agree or not he is entitled to his own views.

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Heh, heh ! What a joke ! The paki goverment wont allow indian performers to go to Pakiland. Therefore, there is a problem with the indian artists attitude....

Real good stuff. Here are some similar article suggestions:

1. Selfish Families of People killed by Jihadis unecessarily resent Terrorists

2. WTC-killings lead to unnecessary and shameless anger against Bin Laden

3. Friends of J&K murder victims indulge in excessive displays of Hatred

Go to work guys. There is so much more to do in your upside-down land !

While pakistanis are quick to point out that they love Indian movies and music, they fail to mention that the Indian artists get no money for all this love. Tho banned, there is a thriving business in pitared DVDs and CDs, for which the Indian artists get no compensation. maybe thats the reason Indian movies are banned the powers that be, obviously make their money from the pirated movies

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pappu67:
The pirating media product business is not a sign of anti-India. Pakistanis do not like to pay income tax and sales tax also to their own government.

Most of the desis (Indians including) in diaspora do not honestly pay to the producers and artists for the products sold and rented in USA, Canada and Britain. Within Pakistan Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan got nothing from Sonic, Eagle and other labels for volumes running almost 100 of his songs.

Why can`t Pakistan allow British and Canadian artists of Indian origin even if they have probelm with India?

#27 by dost-mittar on May 27, 2003 6:52am PT
Romair:
``One of the best articles I have read in a long time. Really puts things in perspective``
Is the dye-in-the-wool militarist now embracing a marxist-communist worldview?
-------------

Mayeb he is scared that once the feuding pakis and indians become pals..he would be left alone...so better change..or pretend to chagne slowly

What a stupid article! Indian artists are banned from Pakistan for decades. Rather than giving his sermons to Pakistanis, author is reminding us of what Gandhi said!! Gandhi also said ``no partition`` and you never listened to him. Why are Pakistani so selective when they want us to follow Gandhi?
(BTW, This author looks like another incarnation of YLH)

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there are numerous faults at both ends. india wont play cricket with pakistan (until such a time that they are sure of winning) and pakistan wud not allow indian movies to come to pakistan (until such a time that we start making better films). but atleast the artists (forward looking, peaceloving, enlightened) shudnt be saying such things. there are two things. 1, all indian artists are not such. nusrat fateh ali , junoon, nazia hassan are just some examples of times when pakistanis were welcomed with open arms in india. 2. indian artists like sukhbir, stereo nation, etc. who r uk based have been allowed in pakistan. even the bhangra king daler mehndi has visited from time to time. so all is not lost. pakistani singers, watever the restrictions, applaud and respect the genius of lata, rafi, kishore and the likes. the point the article tries to make is that if even the artists start to talk like politicians, all hope will be lost.

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SammerJB: Your posts are logical, but you are different from the Ppaki mind set which is exemplified by the posts of 12 Head. Typically, there seems to be a sense of inferiority amongst Pakistanis. This translates in to a sense of righteousness in demanding special status, while justifying lack of reciprocity.

Also, economics is just one minor reason. The real reason Indian artists are banned is because the Paki establishment is too fearful of what beysharam beyhaya Indians will do the the Pakistan Ideology. If a Lahori singer can be taken to court for singing Kudiyan Lahore Deeyan, imagine the fear and nervousness Indian singers inspire in the bureaucrats and Guardians of Pakistan Ideology?

Check this out...

``Some PROTECTION is needed from Haegonomy not necessarily boy cott but like Affirmative action,Subsidy to farmers ,Bilateral trade ..


In the whole picture the lesser the weaker( not inherently but neumericaly ) stand chance to be overwhelmed over run & open worl economy only favours multi natinal bIG large MORE capital ..as you know ``

Typical example of how Hindus should perpetually bend over and take it up the arse to help the ``weaker section of society``..

We are not falling for that shit any more. Pakistan and India are two soveriegn nations. We don`t owe them anything. Trade, cultural exchanges should take place on a basis of equality or not at all.

Sstudebaker: You are a liar. Sardar Patel encouraged others only when the choice became Pakistan or Civil War. From Syed Ali Khan IT IS YOUR MUSLIM leaders who always thought of themselves as MUSLIMS first and Indian second.

The Muslim League was founded by Muslim feudals much before Sardar Patel came on the scene. The vast majority of Muslims supported Pakistan till August 14, 1947. Iit is only on the 15th of August that Muslim League flags came down and Congress flags went up and a number of Muslims discovered secularism and one man one vote.

The biggest mistake the Congress government made, and the most unfair thing to Nationalist Muslims, was that it did not forcibly deport any and all members of the Muslim League to Pakistan. This left suspicion on those Muslims who were generally nationalist.

What did Sardar Patel have to do with the demand of seperate electorates?

What did Sardar Patel have to do with the demand for communal quotas?

The Cabinet Mission plan would have been disaster for Iindia. Even now I say it was better to accept partition than to perpetuate existence under the blackmail of the Muslim League.

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Studebaker:

``In the end of it al ,i think 1/2 of Partitions already un done .....


Lets see how bjp cancome to bengal ..... ``

Explain the above two statements.

stuka ji
I can explain a part of 12-head`s statement. No party other than the communists can possibly win in West Bengal because all the elections in Bengal are heavily rigged by the commies. Stalin had instructed the Indian leftists to subvert the democratic system from within rather than trying for a revolution. I guess that`s what they are doing.
regards

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I have a question, if anyone can help me, I`d be most appreciative. I`m writing a satire and needed to know the name of an Indian musician/singer who used to be prominent on MTV India some years back... I believe she may have hosted some programs, too...

I thought her name was Rageshwari. But I have now heard that there was also a Rajeshwari. And even a Rajeswari.

This is all monumentally confusing. If anyone can clear this up: The musician I had in mind was pretty young (well, five years ago) and seemed to be prominent on the channel, so I`m thinking she must be in the pop music scene.

Thanks.

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