Ich bin ein Mussulman

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#46 Ralph

People whose culture is destroyed through backwardness and colonialism become convinced that all important things take place elsewhere. They even fail to feel their own pain !!! Other`s pain becomes more important, especially if the ``other`` falls into a special class which some authority figure considers important.

Left-wing and much of the media in India exemplify this completely. Many of these are well educated and have travelled etc. But for them the pain of the indian people, whether in the 20% of the indian population that still lives on $1/day or the monstrous terrorism and loss of life in North India is not important !!! What is important is being part of some ``important`` international movement. This gives them dignity and importance. Nothing about india is important to them, it is all a natural consequence of caste and hot climate and whatever....

I grew up in Calcutta which is the exemplar of this kind of mindless self-hatred. I cannot tell you how many demonstrations I have seen in support of this or that soviet/chinese inspired ``international issue``. The Iraq issue provides the same kind of fatal fascination and self-image boost to our so-called leftish intellectuals. And people want to know why the BJP is doing well???

rajanjua #31 LOL. And you may have heard of the Lufthansa air hostess who announces: ``Ladies and Gentlemen, we are getting ready for take-off. Please fasten your seat belts...Und I vant to hear ONE CLICK!``

A bit off topic but relevant in the context of times.

How come no one (specially considering the Sympathies with Salman Rudshie) is made a note of the ``Freedom of Speech`` aspect. With sites which are showing US POW`s being blocked and some shut down(albiet by private companies.)
Or for that matter Trents freedom of speech. If he were to write a book detailing his earlier views would he be able to find a publisher ?

Of course, notice that sectarian hate mongers who are devoted to whining about injustice to this or that muslim group have nothing to say about the horrific massacre in Kashmir. Usually they are obsessed only with the Palestinians whose standard of living and (pre-suicide bombing) lifestyle was above 75% of the indian population. And these people want to pretend that they have concern for all peoples???

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/25/international/asia/25KASH.html

Attack on Hindus in Kashmir May Signal Increase in Violence There
By AMY WALDMAN


EW DELHI, March 24 — When an Islamic insurgency began in Indian Kashmir in 1989, the area`s Hindus became an early target. Muslim militants directed a systematic campaign of assassinations and intimidation against Kashmiri Pandits, as the area`s Hindu Brahmins were known, and most of them were forced out of Kashmir.


Around 40 Pandit families had fled the mountain hamlet of Nadimarg, about 35 miles south of the summer capital, Srinagar. But 11 families had stayed on, counting on the assurances of their Muslim neighbors that they would be safe.

Until early this morning, they were

dost mittar #51 Welcome back. So are you saying that Saddam was right, and his huge pictures that stand like some kind of a god all around Iraq were (per what I heard Saddam tell a reporter once) were put up by the Iraqis who love him? And that the near 100% vote that he received was right? That the gassing of an entire village at Halabja never happened? And that brutal torture was not routinely done by Saddam?
Or are you saying that the Iraqi people are so stupid that twenty years of this satanic rule is not enough for them??
Or are you saying that Iraqi people consider the US and UK to be worse than Saddam, and that it is individuals like you and me and urstruly who left our countries of birth to come and live here who are even more stupid than the Iraqis since we prefer to live in the US and UK rather than knocking the doors of Iraq? And perhaps urstruly MEANT to go to Iraq but was too stupid and took the wrong plane and landed in Detroit??

Just curious.

TAhmed:

You asked me about the position on the war. Let me try and explain as briefly as possible.

Real Politik Standpoint:

The threat of war should not be made without meaning to carry it out. I think the Bush admin should and could have coopted Saddam as America`s man in the middle east. The US is in bed with many dictators and Saddam could have been useful.

It is a different matter that the Hate America First club would have been moaning and bitching about the US being friends with Saddam. They always talk of alterntives without actually providing any.

Having made the threat, it is imperative for the US to follow through to mantain credibility. From this standpoint, control of Iraq gives the US an alternative to Saudi Arabia.


Moral Standpoint: Saddam should have been taken out in 1991. Not doing so was a mistake. A bigger mistake was 12 years of sanctions. Continuation of the war would have been preferable once it was observed that sanctions would not work.

If you read the historic accounts, you will see that it was Arab and European pressure that resulted in limiting the objective of the first Gulf war to the liberation of Kuwait. The mistake was not pursuing regime change then, but to not pursue regime change now would be a continuation of the wrong policy. Also, I genuinely believe that a month of war is better than years of sanctions.

Now, there are some who were against sanctions for the past 12 years and are against the war now. The only alternative that then would remain is the continuation of Saddam`s rule, without any sanctions or oversight, to carry on with his mad objectives and repression. Now, I can understand the realpolitik basis of such an arguement, but to couch it in moral terms reveals a bankruptcy that deserves no response.

I will be happy to answer any further questions.

Ralph #43
I made a couple of personal comments in the beginning which I want to explain. Given what has happened in Gujarat and the hate speech which has entered public dialogue in a big way in India, I would think Indian Muslims in general esp those in Gujarat are real victims, who are helpless beyond a point to influence their environment and moreover who are under a very real physical threat.

So I can sympathise with Farzana`s sense of victimhood and her grievances. Unfortunately, the real situation of victimhood faced by Indian Muslims as a community, she extends into individual interactions.

This is unfair and makes me resentful because in a one-on-one interaction just the fact of my being Hindu doesnot automatically make me the aggressor and just because Farzana is a Muslim does not automatically make her the victim as is always implied on chowk. Also this implicit assumption also makes me very frustrated, because if I am the threat and enemy simply because I exist as a Hindu, it means I am eternally guilty, she is eternally my victim and there is nothing I can do to assist her or other Muslims in their situation(except help get rid of the threat by killing myself which makes no sense to do).

As for Mr Rehan Ansari, I cannot say whether he is/was under any physical threat from the US or the results of ZiaUl Haq`s policies. He seems to doing pretty well on average, given that unlike many S. Asians he didnot have to pay some body smuggler for a place in a truck or ship container to cross borders illegally for a job and is thus not getting deported.

Mr Ansari and others like him are victims if at all, of admittedly bad policies, bad US policies, past and present, and bad Pakistani policies, past and present. To change his situation, ways have to be found to end these bad policies and so he and other educated empowered Pakistanis need to apply their Godgiven minds and well-developed talents to find ways to end these bad policies instead of making repeated multifariously artistic assertions of their sense of victimhood.

tahmed32#54
Thanks. That was a rather hot welcome:-)
I think you misread my post. Why does a criticism of the American aggression against Iraq mean a clean certificate to Saddam. Saddam has not suddenly become the vile character that he is now being portrayed. He used chemical weapons against Iranians but that did not stop Americans from lionising him or the mayor of Detroit to give him the keys of his city (which, I presume, he still has!). I have no doubt that the majority of Iraqis have no love for Saddam, but this does not mean that they want their cities to be bombed by a foreign country with less than altruistic motives. Right now, it is a question of their national honour and dignity and not one of support or opposition to a dictator. If you are a friend of the U.S, you owe it as a friend to tell it that it has embarked on a mission in which they may succeed in the short run but will spell disaster in the long term.
I believe in the rule of law and when one country embarks upon changing a regime thousand miles away which has done it no harm, we are into the law of jungle. Musharraf was right in expressing his apprehension that Pakistan may also one day face the same fate; there is not an iota of evidence that the Iraqi regime is supporting anyone involved with international terrorism, which is more than one can say of at least some of the state agencies of Pakistan.

#50 by Mullah urstruly

`` On one side he was leading a ragtag army of 313 men, who didn`t even had a decent meal in the past 10 years, and on the other hand there was an invading cavalry of 1000 strong men ``

Oh ... so this is where the popular paki belief of ``1 paki equals 3 indians`` comes from. It is the belief in such stupid theories that gets the pakis whacked everytime... be it 1965, 71 or Kargil.

I am from a backward community and as my kinsmen in Gujarat showed, people in India, irrespective of their background are really fed up of stupid muslim theories based on hatred for ``infidels``. Expect to see each of my kinsmen fill up that 2 person differential paki advantage.

Rational people learn from their mistakes. Mullahs like you and stupid jihadis are getting whacked everywhere in the world.

Stuka #55 when I said ``commentary board`` or something in my previous post, I meant the section under the heading ``voices`` on Chowk Home. I say this not to confuse anyone other than you or me on what I am talking about.

Stuka #55 Thanks for providing your reasons for supporting the war. Now we shall wait for Saminasha to get back (as she promised) with her reasons for not supporting the war. Then we shall see where we are on all this and I promise to get back with my two cents.
PS: Shall we keep this on this Great Samina vs. Stuka debate on the commentary board, since that is where we started it??

dost mittar #57 On the hot welcome back, that was just to make sure you hit the ground running. ;-)
The points you make are (and I have come expect nothing less from you) are based on reason and are informative. I didnt know Saddam was some kind of an honorary mayor of Detroit!!. No wonder Detroit at one time at least used to be called the murder capital of the midwest by its residents.
As for what this means for Gen. Musharraf`s job, I shall leave our good general to worry about that since that`s his problem. As a practical matter, I think Musharraf is far smarter than Saddam and knows where the lines are drawn. Saddam`s monstrous behavior towards his domestic opponents was matched only by his moronic behavior in dealing with the US.

sadna # 58
v. interesting post

#53 by pmishra2 on March 27, 2003 3:00pm PT

Of course, notice that sectarian hate mongers who are devoted to targeting muslims have nothing to say about the demonstrations by mulsims in the town against this horrific massacre in Kashmir. The photos were prominent in the newspaper I read.

perhaps I should be more accomdative of your faults apparently you dont read such stories?

#58 by sadna on March 27, 2003 6:42pm PT

Lets see, this victimhood after upteen roits still cant be calimed. Last I heard that BJP was in Power voted by majority of Indians. The main plank of the Sangh Parivar is of ``Appeasement of Muslims`` or loss of Hindu pride etc etc.. later on Ayodhya became a plank.

Perhaps Sadna has a complaint. Thousnads of mulsims were killed in Gujrat and lakhs were rendred homeless. Thousands more were killed in the last decades.

Perhaps people like you have tenous connection with India. Or are part of the news paper reading and beliving middle class whom reality usually passes pretty easily. I have witnessed 5 roits in my life. I have seen muslim business being targeted in Bangalore for no fault of thiers. Doordarsan decided to have a 5 minute Urdu news bulletin in parochial Karnataka. Similarly when Congress came to power after toppling NTR`s Telgu Desam govt one of its group tried a old trick to remove its own Chief Minister Vijay Bhaskar Reddy by enginnering Roits. Goons were Brought from Vijayawada and rumurs of roits flooded Hyderabad. When no incident happened misterious vehicles were going aobut in curfew areas with Speakers calling muslims to Roit or alternatively Dareing them to fight the Hindus. The Tamasha continuted for nearly 4 days and police were hardpressed to find any one to shoot so the killed most people (Muslims ) by going inside their homes. Vijay Bhaskar Reddy was ultimately removed and Channa Reddy the old Cheif Minister came to Power (Under whom I remeber twice yearly roits in Hyderabad for years).

When you accuse of victimhood apparently you dont have much first hand knowdlege. Also you seem to ignore the claiments of such Victimhood which apparetly in great majority that the BJP continues in Power.