They Shoot Kashmiri Pandits, Dont They?
Farzana Versey March 29, 2003
#125 Posted by Ali87 on April 1, 2003 1:49:39 am
#91 by rsridhar on March 31, 2003 3:23pm PT
National symbols are not something static or unchangable.
Where did the part of refusing to accept a song equals to hatred come from?
Do I give a impression of ranting or you put on a particular goggles when reading my posts?
National symbols are not something static or unchangable.
Where did the part of refusing to accept a song equals to hatred come from?
Do I give a impression of ranting or you put on a particular goggles when reading my posts?
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#124 Posted by Ali87 on April 1, 2003 1:49:39 am
#112 by m_souza on March 31, 2003 9:17pm PT
Motherland and lord?
Read the post properly.
there are others who will say that calling one god and then bowing before another is hypocrisy not tolerance.
Tolerance is accepting that the other has different belifs even though you think it is wrong.
_________
on a more logical level countries are transient. Going by your argument in 1971 many Bangladeshis would have had to change their god.
with the constant conquest and changing of hands of lands throught history people would have had to change their gods many times in their lifetime.
----
Muslims are a different lot, they are never changing obstinate people, opinionated people.
----
I thought consitency was valued in people. It is a very valued trait. Opinonated you may think. I think giving in to better logic is considered more valuable than waffling between positions.
As regards Allah etc. I think you or anybody should have any objection to it. Since you pride in yourself in accepting anything including saibaba as god or even Kalki Bhagwan and even Amitabh Bacchan and Nagma.
On the other hand Allah is a name of choice for the creator of the universe by muslims there are other names. Khuda is a Persian word and is adopted by muslims. Even from that angle Hindu religion also claims to have only one creator. Only the gods are some what like Intermediatries to him a fact that is lost upon most hindus today.
-----------
unless and until you hate India and hate Hindus more than a Pakistani does
----------
Funny how often this comes out in posts by the hindus here. I post any thing and if the dont agree then it is proved that I hate hindus or India. These are the thoughts of the great democrats of India.
Im not a waffler m_souza if I want to convey my thoughts I will convey them clearly.
As for my love for the land I live on I can say that if I come across people like you then it will be you who will have a choice ie of swimming in the Arabian Sea or the Indian Ocean.
Motherland and lord?
Read the post properly.
there are others who will say that calling one god and then bowing before another is hypocrisy not tolerance.
Tolerance is accepting that the other has different belifs even though you think it is wrong.
_________
on a more logical level countries are transient. Going by your argument in 1971 many Bangladeshis would have had to change their god.
with the constant conquest and changing of hands of lands throught history people would have had to change their gods many times in their lifetime.
----
Muslims are a different lot, they are never changing obstinate people, opinionated people.
----
I thought consitency was valued in people. It is a very valued trait. Opinonated you may think. I think giving in to better logic is considered more valuable than waffling between positions.
As regards Allah etc. I think you or anybody should have any objection to it. Since you pride in yourself in accepting anything including saibaba as god or even Kalki Bhagwan and even Amitabh Bacchan and Nagma.
On the other hand Allah is a name of choice for the creator of the universe by muslims there are other names. Khuda is a Persian word and is adopted by muslims. Even from that angle Hindu religion also claims to have only one creator. Only the gods are some what like Intermediatries to him a fact that is lost upon most hindus today.
-----------
unless and until you hate India and hate Hindus more than a Pakistani does
----------
Funny how often this comes out in posts by the hindus here. I post any thing and if the dont agree then it is proved that I hate hindus or India. These are the thoughts of the great democrats of India.
Im not a waffler m_souza if I want to convey my thoughts I will convey them clearly.
As for my love for the land I live on I can say that if I come across people like you then it will be you who will have a choice ie of swimming in the Arabian Sea or the Indian Ocean.
#123 Posted by Ali87 on April 1, 2003 1:49:39 am
#106 by nakhok on March 31, 2003 5:05pm PT
Ali does not have to look towards chirstians or A R rahaman on how to think.
Why dont you ask AR rahaman if he is a bigger man than any oneelse.
Neither you nor I know much about who AR rahaman is except what we read about his songs and the stupendous amount he makes. So I prefer not to hold any opinon about him. I do hope that he is a very nice person and certainly be a bigger person than me but I wouldnt attribute that to the money or popularity of his.
The critiera of being a bigger man is commercial success is not unique. I suppose Donland Rumsfield and even Saddam Hussein and even Hitler or for that matter Michael Jakson fall in that category.
As for the christians I dont know if they are bigoted or not. But they calim to surrender to a god and then they courropt his teachings. Homosexuality is ok, and I dont think I need to go into the full list. for nearly 1900 years one couldnt divorce Now one can go to the church and also glorify live in relationships.
Anyway I dont want to be dragged into these religious comparasions everytime I post.
And I thought that Bigotory was asking the other to follow your way some thing that you are doing too.
Ali does not have to look towards chirstians or A R rahaman on how to think.
Why dont you ask AR rahaman if he is a bigger man than any oneelse.
Neither you nor I know much about who AR rahaman is except what we read about his songs and the stupendous amount he makes. So I prefer not to hold any opinon about him. I do hope that he is a very nice person and certainly be a bigger person than me but I wouldnt attribute that to the money or popularity of his.
The critiera of being a bigger man is commercial success is not unique. I suppose Donland Rumsfield and even Saddam Hussein and even Hitler or for that matter Michael Jakson fall in that category.
As for the christians I dont know if they are bigoted or not. But they calim to surrender to a god and then they courropt his teachings. Homosexuality is ok, and I dont think I need to go into the full list. for nearly 1900 years one couldnt divorce Now one can go to the church and also glorify live in relationships.
Anyway I dont want to be dragged into these religious comparasions everytime I post.
And I thought that Bigotory was asking the other to follow your way some thing that you are doing too.
#122 Posted by Ali87 on April 1, 2003 1:49:39 am
#91 by rsridhar on March 31, 2003 3:23pm PT
Similarly most muslims dont have much qualms about singing Sare Jahan se Accah ``Hindustan`` Hamara.
If the originator of the song is a issue I would have no problem with people who oppose it. Similarly Vande Mataram being Written by Bankim Chandra, is also a issue.
--------------
Perhaps people who are still not sure about the origins of the song ie the context in which it was first written.
here are some excerpts of one of the analysis on its context in the novel Anand Math...
`Our religion is gone, our caste is gone, our honour is gone. Can the Hindus preserve their Hinduism unless these drunken Nereys (a term of contempt for Muslims) are driven away?`... Mahendra, however, not convinced, expresses reluctance to join the rebellion. He is, therefore, taken to the temple of Ananda Math and shown a huge image of four-armed Vishnu, with two decapitated and bloody heads in front, ``Do you know who she is?`` asks the priest in charge, pointing to an image on the lap of Vishnu, ``She is the Mother. We are her children Say `Bande Mataram``` He is taken to the image of Kali and then to that of Durga. On each occasion he is asked to recite `Bande Mataram`. In another scene in the novel some people shouted `kill, kill the Nereys`. Others shouted `Bande Mataram` `Will the day come when we shall break mosques and build temples on their sites? 4
Similarly most muslims dont have much qualms about singing Sare Jahan se Accah ``Hindustan`` Hamara.
If the originator of the song is a issue I would have no problem with people who oppose it. Similarly Vande Mataram being Written by Bankim Chandra, is also a issue.
--------------
Perhaps people who are still not sure about the origins of the song ie the context in which it was first written.
here are some excerpts of one of the analysis on its context in the novel Anand Math...
`Our religion is gone, our caste is gone, our honour is gone. Can the Hindus preserve their Hinduism unless these drunken Nereys (a term of contempt for Muslims) are driven away?`... Mahendra, however, not convinced, expresses reluctance to join the rebellion. He is, therefore, taken to the temple of Ananda Math and shown a huge image of four-armed Vishnu, with two decapitated and bloody heads in front, ``Do you know who she is?`` asks the priest in charge, pointing to an image on the lap of Vishnu, ``She is the Mother. We are her children Say `Bande Mataram``` He is taken to the image of Kali and then to that of Durga. On each occasion he is asked to recite `Bande Mataram`. In another scene in the novel some people shouted `kill, kill the Nereys`. Others shouted `Bande Mataram` `Will the day come when we shall break mosques and build temples on their sites? 4
#121 Posted by dost_mittar on April 1, 2003 1:49:39 am
Urstruly#88
Further to my response #102. With referene to your condemning Kashmiri hindus for not throwing their lot with the separatists, would you please care to enlighten them on how their hindu brothers are doing in the what you call ``Azad Kashmir``?
Further to my response #102. With referene to your condemning Kashmiri hindus for not throwing their lot with the separatists, would you please care to enlighten them on how their hindu brothers are doing in the what you call ``Azad Kashmir``?
#120 Posted by harimau on March 31, 2003 11:05:22 pm
Ref temporal #109
[soysauce has more class and elan than you...]
If you are wealthy, you can acquire ``class`` in the eyes of others.
As somebody said on another board, Zia ul-Haq was unfailingly polite to Bhutto to the day he was hanged. I am sure that Muhammad Omar of Afghanistan is a courteous and kindly gentleman in his personal dealings. Most likely, Sheikh Omar was extra polite to Daniel Pearl before he slit his throat.
I met the Tamil politician Vaiko in his home some 10 years back. Charming person and a wonderful host. He is sitting in jail now under preventive custody for supporting the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE). I am sure you know of LTTE`s record.
Doctor Artist Leader Karunanidhi is considered an ``elder statesman``; the corruption cases against him have been conveniently forgotten now that his party is a member of the coalition governing India. I am sure in person he is wonderfully nice; why, he even demands that only Brahmin lawyers be hired by his party for important cases so that he can be assured of victory.
I beat Sangilikkaruppan over his head each time he appears on Chowk because he oozes hypocrisy from every pore of his skin, not because of his caste. The slime is palpable.
[no personal offence intended...]
None taken. I always have a smile on my face when I type my replies so you know I am in a sunny mood.
Warmest regards.
[soysauce has more class and elan than you...]
If you are wealthy, you can acquire ``class`` in the eyes of others.
As somebody said on another board, Zia ul-Haq was unfailingly polite to Bhutto to the day he was hanged. I am sure that Muhammad Omar of Afghanistan is a courteous and kindly gentleman in his personal dealings. Most likely, Sheikh Omar was extra polite to Daniel Pearl before he slit his throat.
I met the Tamil politician Vaiko in his home some 10 years back. Charming person and a wonderful host. He is sitting in jail now under preventive custody for supporting the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE). I am sure you know of LTTE`s record.
Doctor Artist Leader Karunanidhi is considered an ``elder statesman``; the corruption cases against him have been conveniently forgotten now that his party is a member of the coalition governing India. I am sure in person he is wonderfully nice; why, he even demands that only Brahmin lawyers be hired by his party for important cases so that he can be assured of victory.
I beat Sangilikkaruppan over his head each time he appears on Chowk because he oozes hypocrisy from every pore of his skin, not because of his caste. The slime is palpable.
[no personal offence intended...]
None taken. I always have a smile on my face when I type my replies so you know I am in a sunny mood.
Warmest regards.
#119 Posted by sadna on March 31, 2003 11:05:22 pm
temporal #115
You can classify chowk posters as much as you please, but I donot subscribe to your classifications or value judgements about posters including myself.
When you say `knee-jerk brigade`, you are labelling everyone who is going to disagree with Farzana without looking at the merits of their points of view. I am objecting to this.
If you hadnot said `knee jerk` brigade, we would be discussing the point you raised instead of your opinion of chowk posters. Just like if you had posted something on IDRF in preference to labelling me, we could have discussed IDRF instead of discussing me.
`we all know them here`.
Well, actually I donot `know them all here`. I very much prefer to respond to someone`s point of view based on my own opinion of them and the merits of what they say and not on the basis of their preassigned level in a chowk caste system set up by someone else.
PS: I didnot say or imply that I speak for all Indians.
You can classify chowk posters as much as you please, but I donot subscribe to your classifications or value judgements about posters including myself.
When you say `knee-jerk brigade`, you are labelling everyone who is going to disagree with Farzana without looking at the merits of their points of view. I am objecting to this.
If you hadnot said `knee jerk` brigade, we would be discussing the point you raised instead of your opinion of chowk posters. Just like if you had posted something on IDRF in preference to labelling me, we could have discussed IDRF instead of discussing me.
`we all know them here`.
Well, actually I donot `know them all here`. I very much prefer to respond to someone`s point of view based on my own opinion of them and the merits of what they say and not on the basis of their preassigned level in a chowk caste system set up by someone else.
PS: I didnot say or imply that I speak for all Indians.
#118 Posted by Manjit on March 31, 2003 11:05:22 pm
temporal # 115
It is a sensitive topic which creates misunderstanding. I too first felt you were blaming the GOI for the acts of terrorists. I now know that is not the case and Sadna and you agree much more than you disagree.
It is a sensitive topic which creates misunderstanding. I too first felt you were blaming the GOI for the acts of terrorists. I now know that is not the case and Sadna and you agree much more than you disagree.
#117 Posted by harimau on March 31, 2003 10:25:19 pm
Ref rsridhar #90
[re: #83 by soysauce
How does one force anyone to sing a national anthem or a patriotic song like Vande Mataram? This is like Karunanidhi, the Tamil politician, telling a cheering crowd of his DMK supporters that Tamilians are being forced to learn Hindi and they need to resist. How does one do it? Do you place a gun over someone`s head and force him/her to recite Vande Mataram or learn Hindi? These are dubious arguments put forward by dubious politicians. In a democracy, you have a free choice. You cannot be forced.]
With this post, you are forcing Sangilikkaruppan to get out his copy of the Collected Works of the Fund of Compassion to see what he has said about Hindi, the National Anthem, Vande Mataram, etc. Since Sangilikkaruppan does not know how to use the index, he will be searching through the book to find the relevant answers so expect to wait till Hell freezes over.
[``Rapproachement has to be based on give and take. What are the hindus willing to give in return for the masjid? A promise that they would not insist on a uniform civil code or something equally weighty?``
This is not a business transaction. ..... Do you have any better ideas?]
Sangilikkaruppan will have to see what the Fund of Compassion had to say on this issue. He well remembers that Karunanidhi called Hindus thieves and is wondering if that allows him to steal anything else out of the mouths of the poor and the orphans. But do not expect original thoughts from this idiot.
Maybe he will come up with the idea of bogus caste certificates for Muslims showing them to be of the Most Backward Class (MBC). But then, the Muslims will have to change their names to Nedunchezhiyan, Ilangovan, Tamil Mani, etc. I am sure Sangilikkaruppan has a book of ``1001 Tamil Names`` that he will gladly provide to the Muslim community for whom he is shedding his usual crocodile tears.
[re: #83 by soysauce
How does one force anyone to sing a national anthem or a patriotic song like Vande Mataram? This is like Karunanidhi, the Tamil politician, telling a cheering crowd of his DMK supporters that Tamilians are being forced to learn Hindi and they need to resist. How does one do it? Do you place a gun over someone`s head and force him/her to recite Vande Mataram or learn Hindi? These are dubious arguments put forward by dubious politicians. In a democracy, you have a free choice. You cannot be forced.]
With this post, you are forcing Sangilikkaruppan to get out his copy of the Collected Works of the Fund of Compassion to see what he has said about Hindi, the National Anthem, Vande Mataram, etc. Since Sangilikkaruppan does not know how to use the index, he will be searching through the book to find the relevant answers so expect to wait till Hell freezes over.
[``Rapproachement has to be based on give and take. What are the hindus willing to give in return for the masjid? A promise that they would not insist on a uniform civil code or something equally weighty?``
This is not a business transaction. ..... Do you have any better ideas?]
Sangilikkaruppan will have to see what the Fund of Compassion had to say on this issue. He well remembers that Karunanidhi called Hindus thieves and is wondering if that allows him to steal anything else out of the mouths of the poor and the orphans. But do not expect original thoughts from this idiot.
Maybe he will come up with the idea of bogus caste certificates for Muslims showing them to be of the Most Backward Class (MBC). But then, the Muslims will have to change their names to Nedunchezhiyan, Ilangovan, Tamil Mani, etc. I am sure Sangilikkaruppan has a book of ``1001 Tamil Names`` that he will gladly provide to the Muslim community for whom he is shedding his usual crocodile tears.
#116 Posted by harimau on March 31, 2003 10:25:19 pm
Ref pmishra2 #89
[Re: Bande Matram, only the first stanza is sung and considered to be significant. It has no official standing in India/Bharat so I am not sure what the fuss here is all about.]
Not so fast, buster. There was a demand that `Vande Mataram` be made the National Anthem but `Jana Gana Mana` won out so `Vande Mataram` was designated the National Song.
[Re: Bande Matram, only the first stanza is sung and considered to be significant. It has no official standing in India/Bharat so I am not sure what the fuss here is all about.]
Not so fast, buster. There was a demand that `Vande Mataram` be made the National Anthem but `Jana Gana Mana` won out so `Vande Mataram` was designated the National Song.
#115 Posted by Studebaker on March 31, 2003 9:17:23 pm
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#114 Posted by Manjit on March 31, 2003 9:17:23 pm
Tipu # 100
Could you give a link to that story? I had heard a slightly different version.
Could you give a link to that story? I had heard a slightly different version.
#113 Posted by temporal on March 31, 2003 9:17:23 pm
Sadna 53:
Buhat achchay!…twist, turn and hurl back the allegations without refutation…and add unrelated stuff and smile…this sophomoric display of non sequiturs is a non-answer to my very specific post # 47…
You must be a legend in your own mind, sadna…if you think you speak for all indians…
I do not speak for all pakistanis…I come here respectfully representing only myself…I express my views and opinion and sometimes have invigorating and passionate disagreements with others including your countrymen…yet I have cordial and indeed friendly relations with them…I find them mature and secure individuals…and while agreeing to disagree on issues it has no affect on our cordiality…indian chowkies like stuka, dost-mittar, vereesh, harsis (HN) and others have my admiration and do india proud…
…then we have the knee-jerkers…(and to be fair they are not confined to indians, we have our share of them too!)…these bigots…I steer away…their sole mission in life is to deride and ridicule the other at every opportunity…and we see a preponderance of them on farzana’s boards…for someone whom you unfairly accuse of name-calling, I do not even mention their names…we all know them here:)
…it is unfortunate someone told you to go forth and produce….my disdain for such language has been expressed in Duck, man Duck…if someone used such language with you please take it up with them…
...now if you want to continue this....please answer to the specific points I raised in #47…that is one option for you…or you can feel slighted or victimized and return with non sequiturs…your call…don’t feel offended if I just gloss over…
rgds,
t
Buhat achchay!…twist, turn and hurl back the allegations without refutation…and add unrelated stuff and smile…this sophomoric display of non sequiturs is a non-answer to my very specific post # 47…
You must be a legend in your own mind, sadna…if you think you speak for all indians…
I do not speak for all pakistanis…I come here respectfully representing only myself…I express my views and opinion and sometimes have invigorating and passionate disagreements with others including your countrymen…yet I have cordial and indeed friendly relations with them…I find them mature and secure individuals…and while agreeing to disagree on issues it has no affect on our cordiality…indian chowkies like stuka, dost-mittar, vereesh, harsis (HN) and others have my admiration and do india proud…
…then we have the knee-jerkers…(and to be fair they are not confined to indians, we have our share of them too!)…these bigots…I steer away…their sole mission in life is to deride and ridicule the other at every opportunity…and we see a preponderance of them on farzana’s boards…for someone whom you unfairly accuse of name-calling, I do not even mention their names…we all know them here:)
…it is unfortunate someone told you to go forth and produce….my disdain for such language has been expressed in Duck, man Duck…if someone used such language with you please take it up with them…
...now if you want to continue this....please answer to the specific points I raised in #47…that is one option for you…or you can feel slighted or victimized and return with non sequiturs…your call…don’t feel offended if I just gloss over…
rgds,
t
#112 Posted by temporal on March 31, 2003 9:17:10 pm
harimau:
(...just a thought ...despite your protestations of righteous indignation and sometimes tedious explanations of caste system in the south...and ostensible pride in your caste...)
soysauce has more class and elan than you...no personal offence intended...
rgds,
t
(...just a thought ...despite your protestations of righteous indignation and sometimes tedious explanations of caste system in the south...and ostensible pride in your caste...)
soysauce has more class and elan than you...no personal offence intended...
rgds,
t
#111 Posted by veeresh on March 31, 2003 9:17:10 pm
Our fundoos are better than your fundoos? Ponder, ponder, be a smart (oxy)moron today!
#110 Posted by m_souza on March 31, 2003 9:17:10 pm
#64 by rsaxena on March 30, 2003 5:58pm PT
”...they teach quantum mechanics and structuring mergers & acquisitions..”
Training camps are harmless places for higher education for:
--just learning the techniques of using arms and ammunitions, without actually using them.
--just learning to cross LOC discreetly, but come back without harming anyone.
--Just learning songs about ‘jihad’ ‘jihad’ ‘jihad’, against kafirs, wiithout really hating them.
Of course, they can’t kill anyone….how dare we think they can?
”...they teach quantum mechanics and structuring mergers & acquisitions..”
Training camps are harmless places for higher education for:
--just learning the techniques of using arms and ammunitions, without actually using them.
--just learning to cross LOC discreetly, but come back without harming anyone.
--Just learning songs about ‘jihad’ ‘jihad’ ‘jihad’, against kafirs, wiithout really hating them.
Of course, they can’t kill anyone….how dare we think they can?
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