They Shoot Kashmiri Pandits, Dont They?

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re:#162 by ali87
To answer your post further, let me state that i have not talked about the common civil code, polygamy etc. These are issues raised by BJP and sangh. These seem to form an impression on a number of middle class hindus. These translate into votes.
These are real concerns and need to be addressed. But, the dialogue should start within the muslim community first. Are they doing it? I do not think so. They seem to say: what is wrong with polygamy? What is wrong with a seperate muslim code. These things seem to alienate muslim further and further from the majority community.

BJP will take advantage of the feeling of anger that arise out of these archaic laws. They should have been done away with at the very onset. Why do the muslims need a seperate shariat court when no other community has it? Does it not speak of alienation?
Polygamy cannot be acceptable in any civilised society. It gives a raw deal to women and treats them as sex objects. What is the logic of having polygamy in this day and age? This law again is archaic.
But, these issues are to be debated among educated muslims in India. They need to do whatever it takes to strengthen their own community and the secular fabric of the country.
You need to ask: why do muslim parents not send their children to govt run schools in India? Why do i not see muslim children mingling with hindu children in schools in North India? I see Sikhs, christians and the rest going to same schools.
I think there should be a debate. Debate is always healthy. Unfortunately, this woman FV comes up with these stupid articles but does not address the real issues confronting the muslims in India today and does not ever talk about solutions.
Sridhar

re:#156 by ali87
Sorry for this belated post. I saw this only after your more recent posts. So much for interacting in fits and starts!
I have said what i felt about this song (Vande Mataram). Any attempt by politicians to impose it on muslims should be resisted. There is no space for tyranny in a democracy. But, while rejecting the attempt at imposition, muslims need to make sure they do not reject the song itself. It is symbolic of India`s independence struggle and inspired many leaders and even people like Sri Aurobindo. Even if the meaning is not well understood by most Hindus, the symbolism is strong.
If you are a patriotic indian, you should have no problem with aligning yourself with this symbolism even while rejecting the Hindu symbols inherent in this song. That is all i am saying. See the song for what it really is. It is just a song in praise of India. Why don`t you rewrite this in urdu and we will all appreciate it. You can, if you want, do away with the hindu symbols.
Sridhar

The Kashmir Valley has been emptied of the Pundits ever since Pakistan`s ruling elite decided in 1989 to inject the veterans of the Afghan war into the Valley. Pakistan`s ruling elite has become a victim of its own obsession and its own propaganda. There is little incentive for it to communicate, let alone to sympathize with the Pundits who have fled their ancestral home. Pakistan`s ruling elite won`t ask even the Muslims of the Valley how they feel about the exodus of their fellow Kashmiris with whom they had lived together in peace for centuries in spite of their religious differences.

Pakistan`s ruling elite has no respect for Jammu & Kashmir`s multireligious ethos which is at the very core of Kashmiriyat. It is hell bent on imposing PoK`s religious homogeneity on the whole of Jammu & Kashmir. Pakistan`s ruling elite deems nothing sacred in its inexorable quest for more real estate.

re: post #50 by Studebaker
``.......,there is no Islam which justifies making Mosque over others property .It is basic knowledge every muslim should know that the money used to build house of prayer MUST pass much stricter criteria than that for Charity ,building orphanage ,musafir khana ,hospitals etc.etc. ``
History of Islamic conquest of India is replete with destruction of temples and building of mosques over the temple ruins. This was considered a pious duty by rulers like Auranzeb.
We do not have to revisit those horrors but we need to accept the truth and learn from it.
Url:
http://www.blonnet.com/life/2002/04/15/stories/2002041500160300.htm
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/mag/2002/05/05/stories/2002050500420200.htm
The second Url is close to how feel about Babri Masjid issue.
Sridhar

re: #162 by ali87
``Muslims are all for accomadation. They dont insist that people quote from the quran in school, they dont ask the the bhramans to eat beef, They dont object to hindus worshiping any deity. They dont ask hindus to sing muslim religous songs.``
The above statements blew my mind and need a seperate treatement. I hope, Ali 87, you do understand what you are saying. Muslims in India are in a minority. They are surrounded by hindus, who are in an overwhelming majority. When India was divided, those who thought they cannot live with the idol worshipping, heeng-eating hindus, hindus, who also have this bad habit of not eating beef (most hindus, not just brahmins, do not eat beef) opted to go to Pakistan. That place was specially carved out for such elements. Those who think with a certain mindset, who cannot accomodate.
In India, there may be hatred for other`s view point. There may be disagreements with the other way of life but there is space for all this. If you are showing your displeasure of idol worshipping, Vande Mataram singing hindus (you call it accomodation), then do you blame the Modis and Togadias who are showing their displeasure but only in an extreme manner. The mindset is the same. It refuses to accept the other`s viewpoint. Did any hindu ever force you to worship an idol? Did any hindu place a pistol on your head to sing Vande Mataram? So, what the heck are you talking about? I have only argued that nobody can force a community against its wishes in a democracy. Look how long the Babri Masjid case has dragged on. This is just one mosque. Millions of hindus believe (rightly or wrongly) that a temple stood there. Despite some hindutva elements damaging the mosque, the matter rests with the court. No other mosque has been damaged.
Did you know what happened to temples in Pakistan after this incident? How many temples were destroyed? How many hindu shops were vandalised?
There is a rule of law in India and at the highest level, it does seem to operate. People of different faiths have reposed confidence on the SC verdict. Unlike Pak where law is taken into one`s hands, Indian politicians have waited out on this issue for many years. But, the longer the wait is, the longer it serves the BJP.
Why don`t you, for once, be smart and tell us how you, as an Indian muslim, think this problem can be addressed? You have heard what some hindus feel. Let us hear your side of the story.
PS: No whining or accusations,please. Let us be objective and clear about what we are talking.
Sridhar

re: #162 by ali87
Hey, if you want to be like the jehadis in Pakis, be my guest but do not complain if your A$$ is rammed by Togadias and Modis. They love people like you. People like you give them reason to be communal.

Abdul Kalam is a devout muslim. Justice Ismail is an islamic scholar. Both are building bridges with the majority community. Both should be role models for muslims.
Heck, i am totally surprised at your post. For you, Abdul Kalam is not a hero. I thought, a devout muslim, who is also an accomplished scientist, a poet, and some one who knows more than one languages, is not a hero. Is it because Abdul Kalam cannot converse in Urdu? Or is it because he gives a feeling he is sucking upto the hindus, which, BTW, is totally wrong. He has very clear views on a number of prolbems that confront India and has written books on it.
Pray tell me, who is your muslim hero? Who is your role model? Is it Osama-bin-Laden? Is it Saddam Hussein? Pray enlighten us.
Do you at least consider Rafiq Zakaria as someone you can relate to. He is a muslim scholar and knows Urdu. Did you read what he had to say to the muslim minorities in India?
http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/dec/17arvind.htm
If you do not agree with his assessment (and mind you, he is the islamic scholar and you are not), tell us who do you look upto.

BJP as a phenomenon is recent. It was not a big factor in the early decades of independence. You say this is due to BJP propaganda. That is stupid. Where was the propaganda in the early 40s to 70s. Was there no propaganda? Sure, there was. Only, hindus were not impressed. Today, more hindus are listening. Why? This is for you to introspect on. If you get angry and jump up and down like (as P.G. Wodehouse would put it) a cat on hot bricks, it is not going to help matters. What i was trying to say is that, in a democracy, secularism is a concept to be nurtured by all communities. Minorities have as much stake in it as majority community. They cannot take secularism for granted and blame hindus as and when secularism takes a beating.

India opted for a secular constitution after the hindu-muslim carnage of partition. This was a bold move. It also reflected the mood of the people at that time. They were fed up of communal elements and wanted nothing to do with it.
However, Congress did not follow up on it promise. It treated muslims as a mere vote bank and took hindu votes for granted. If it was truly secular, Narasimha Rao should have prevented the demolition of Babri Masjid. This guy looked the other way when the mosque was being demolished. He was trying not to anger a lot of hindus on an emotive issue.
This pseudo-secularism has angered the middle class hindus as nothing else has. No doubt, some have fallen to the propaganda of Togadias and Modis but most have not. It is this growing anger which has gotten translated into votes for BJP over the years.
What muslim in India have to do is their concern. Hindus can only tell them what is bothering them. If you, as a muslim in India, feel there is a solution to all this, you should speak out. Do not go on whining and complaining about the majority community. There are good, bad and the ugly in every community and hindus in India are no different. Muslims need to team up with the good secular elements and defeat the communal elements that are on the rise today.
Sridhar

How Azad is ``Azad`` Kashmir? About as Azad as Pakistan itself. It ``elects`` its President from the same pool of talent, namely, Pakistan`s military:

+++
http://www.dawn.com/2003/02/09/op.htm

DAWN, Karachi, Pakistan
09 February 2003 Sunday 07 Zilhaj 1423

Governors in politics
By Kunwar Idris

``Last year an army general was asked to resign one day to take over as president of Azad Kashmir the next day. That may not have violated a law but inevitably caused dismay. Pakistan stands for the right of self-determination for all of the people of Kashmir but here even the free and unsuspecting among them were given no say in choosing a leader of their own.``
+++

Ref ali87 #171

[There was so much concern for women that they were elevated to fine dancing women who could enjoy any man they want in the temples(or was it the other way round?)]

Actuallay, in Kerala, it was the other way around. Nair women could co-habit with anyone they wanted.

[So much concern that they were denied any property rights for thousands of years. So much concern that the women couldnt Inherit anything at all.]

Again, amongst Nairs, inheritance was exclusively through females.

In the interests of historical accuracy,

Harimau

ali78 #187

Come now ali87, women were not allowed to work in Afghanistan, many of them were widows or sole supporters of their families. Some of them worked in bakeries, this was also stopped by the Taliban. Girls were not allowed to attend school. Recently, the pro-Taliban militia has been attacking the newly opened girls schools.

Why didnot the Muslims in Saudi Arabia Pakistan and the Gulf countries protest against their government`s support to Taliban due to their treatment of women?

I heard 2nd hand that delegations from Egypt`s premier Islamic university travelled on more than one occasion to try to persuade the Taliban to change its treatment of women, but to no avail.

Inspite of all this Imam Bukhari has announced his support of Taliban on several occasions, even recently. Why? What would he have said if the Taliban was a nonMuslim government doing the same things to Afghan Muslims?

I suspect that if a government was oppressing its Muslims, if the government was nonMuslim, Muslims from all over the world will show their anger and contemplate armed jihad as duty, but if that same government didnot change its policies one whit but magically turned Muslim overnight, Muslims will cease to have problems with it. I cannot explain this phenomena of selective outrage any other way.


My point about the hijab was not about the hijab but about girls schools. And my example from Kerala is nothing to do with literacy, Kerala was famously 100% literate not so long ago. Another example from North Kerala Muslims is a fatwa issued 2-3 years ago by a prominent community leader against women competing in Panchayat elections. I donot know the fate of this fatwa.

I am pointing out these examples to show you that if you are saying you are justified in deriding Hinduism `on merits` due to customs which you quote(often centuries old) of Hindus, I can just as easily point out how Muslims give enough reason with their present day customs for me to deride Islam `on merits`.

What the heck is the point of this exercise ? You are doing what you are accusing the Hindus of doing, namely not understanding the other person`s religion. Can`t you be a proud Muslim without deriding Hinduism? Just because you live among Hindus whose religion YOU have no value for, doesnot mean Hindus must have no value for it too to live in peace with you.


I have read a writeup or two by Syed Shahabuddin, who makes it clear in his writings that he shares with you a contempt for Hinduism. I can understand that surrounded by a vast sea of humanity whose customs and beliefs you hold in contempt, you and he must feel as if you are under seige, This is an additional dimension of seige to add to the very real physical seige. It explains why he is so insistent on Muslim personal law being off limits even from the Supreme Court of the land, forget about directive principles of the Constitution.

There is no solution to this seige of the faithful by infidels under which Muslims like you and Shahabuddin are under in India. Our previous generation tried Pakistan, which didnot work. The Pakistanis still feel under seige from Hindus and they have not sorted out the issues with Muslim law even in 57 years.

#156 by ali87 on April 1, 2003 3:19pm PT


What a silly arguement about Vande Matram..Who cares whether you sing it or not??? Who cares if you call India your `motherland` or not?

You keep your self opinionated religion to yourself...WE DON`T CARE AT ALL....apne backward khyalat apne paas hi rakho..

And from now on I will never use words Allah or Khuda ever.. and will not sing songs which contain them..why should I...

And your justification that Hindus worship anything ..so what a big deal if they use words like Allah and Khuda in their songs....
You are wrong there..we just try feel we have respect for all religions..that is why we don`t mind using any word..not because we are sissies.. Yes, we feel everything is the same..God is One..call him by any name..
One can worship in any form..and idol is only sometimes used to focus your energies and spirit towards God..

But these things are beyond your comprehension.....


(Right now I am listening to a talk-radio program in Australia..and the host is really agruing with a Lebonese muslim who is all heated up with anger. The host says worse things about Islam everyday than any of the Hindus ever says ..anywhere. And this is in every show.. every talk back show criticises Islam

Believe me..we Hindus are much more secular and tolerant and understanding towards Muslims than is the rest of the world..but Indian muslims are slowly forcing us to change our attitudes)

#150 by Studebaker on April 1, 2003 12:29pm PT

“there is no Islam which justifies making Mosque over others property .It is basic knowledge every muslim should know that the money used to build house of prayer MUST pass much stricter criteria than that for Charity ,building orphanage ,musafir khana ,hospitals etc.etc.”

But Babar and his predessors or followers did not think in the same way. If they had, then there wouldn’t have been so many problems now, in ‘once so peaceful’ land of Bharta.
And even though these invadors came from foreign lands, they did built so many mosques after destroying the temples. Destroying the ‘idols’ of ‘kafirs’ gave them a pleasure and satisfaction of having pleased Allah. Convertign as many Hindus to Islam made tehm feel they are serving Allah. And these very converted people now hate Hindus.

If destruction of one mosque in Ayodhya (this should not have happened though) gives you so much pain, then think of the plight of Hindus, their self-esteem….how degraded they felt all this time..on seeing their ages old culture being destroyed.
It is these very scars and pent up feelings which come out in situations like Godhara….where some Hindus feel that we will tell the Muslims that we are not sissies….our humility was taken to be ‘cowardliness’…...we have taken it from Babar etc, but won’t take it anymore

Ref einsteinwallah #169

[If idea of being citizen of a Hindu majority country itself is anti-Islamic, then natural corollary is: leave the country. Go. Go to Pakistan. Go anywhere. Don`t kill your fellow human beings. Be happy by all means in hell, if hell is where you can be happy. Go to hell.]

That is actually the position of Muslim learned men. If Muslims think the Infidels oppress them in the free exercise of their religion, their obligation is jihad, and in case they can see that jihad is impossible in the face of overwhelming might, flight from the land of the Infidels.

Why is Farts Anna not following Koranic injunctions?

#169 by einsteinwallah on April 2, 2003 6:25am PT
``Isn`t there a Pakistani song: ``Sohani Dharti, Allah Rakkhe ...``? Now who can say such a idiotic thing? Does ``sohani`` mean beautiful? Now a woman can be beautiful but never heard of Dharti being beautiful. But still to some Paki the song brings tears to their eyes. If Vande Mataram is Hindu then Sohani Dharti is also Hindu. At this rate everything is Hindu because somewhere there is deification of a secular concept``

Sohani Dharti...of course dharti beign idolised as woman.

O yes..like I wrote earlier....Musharrf says all the time ``Pakistan is our motherland, we ahve to defend it``

And I saw a Pakistani TV serial on Zee...``Mere Sanwariya ke naam``...
Does any muslim know what is the meaning of Sanwariya???
It means..``Lord Krishna``....a wheatish cooloured, `saanwala` Hindu God. Women desired to have a `saanwala-salona` virtuous husband like Krishna..so they address their loved one as `saanwariya`..

And these Indian muslims?? They are tooooo obsessed to please the muslims in the rest of teh world..they outrightly reject everything Hindu..just to proove their loyalty to their religion..

Insecurty???? Is it??

Ref einsteinwallah #170

[In Gujarati as well as Marathi there is a alphabet character whose pronunciation approximates sound of -zh- as in Kazhagam and Tamizh (I think). According to a book I have read by K. T. Achaya (on History of Indian Food), Prof. Achaya shows a geneology of Indian languages in which Tamil is shown as mother of Gujarati. Marathi also has many words which use -zh-. Examples: Bazha Saheb Thackeray, Bazh Gangadhar Tizhak. These names are transliterated in English as: Bala Saheb Thackeray and Bal Gangadhar Tilak.]

Are you sure? It may be closer the second `l` than the third `l` of Tamil.

[Koreans who do not come into contact with instructors in early life who teach them how to say -r-, may lose their ability to speak -r- forever. That is, they cannot be taught to speak -r- ever in life if they are past certain threshold age.]

Learning languages is pretty nigh impossible after age 7, research has shown. It is just that one would expect to speak one`s native language perfectly; after all you start speaking it from about 12 months on. It is just the utter laziness of the Tamils and the total disrespect they have towards learning (as opposed to getting an academic degree which then leads them to demand a job, not real work) that causes them to not pronounce the name of their language properly.

171 by ali87 on April 2, 2003 6:25am PT
Ali is getting crazier…and crazier by each an devery psot of his..

Ali..you say: “I have seen a couple of corpses of women and children in 1984 burnt at the hands of the peace loving, docile, harm nobody hindus. 3 tousand died in those three days.”

First of all.. don’t try to bother about other religions..plzzz…only stick to your religion…If we don’t want to bother if you sing Bande Matrram or not..then who gives you a right to defend Sikhs…
Sikhism is more close to my religion than yours. I am a Punjabi Hindu..but I have Sikhs in my family…and if I should have trouble with Hinduism if at all…So you SHUT UP…PLZ

Have you seen terrorism in Punjab? I have seen and first hand..as a newsreader at a Punjab’s radio station…as I read news about people kille deveryday..even my station-in-charge killed…
These terrorists had no religion, they were provoked and supported by Pakistan(in its earnest desire to divide India) so they brought hell on all the innocent Sikhs who are still such devoted Indians and very close to Hindus. Sikhs and Hindus are one..nothing can divide them..OK

So, plz bother about your religion only..