Five Centuries Ago Tomorrow

............ this is really pathetic !.......... now that the taliban have had their sordid religious behinds whopped, and the iraqi regime is getting its secular posterior kicked in line, the ummah is pinning its hopes on the resurgent house of othman ..........and some military and IT geniuses are waiting for imran khan and his party of one to usher in the new caliphate in islamabad......... what idiocy!...... the fact of the matter is that this is a battle between civilization and primitivism and, guess what - the primitives are bound to loose .......... lets face it, while the rest of the world has accepted the general prnciples of civilization, which include democracy, rock and roll, the rule of law, pre-marital sex, an independent judiciary and symphony orchestra, the arabs and arab-wannabes are stuck in the sands of seventh century superstition ............

..........so forget it - it is not going to happen .........nothing will change until we cure this sickness of the mind and stop talking about the silly concept of the ummah............nothing will change until we get rid of the night gowns and towels on our heads and start wearing two legged pants like regular people ............ (and please don`t use gandhi`s example - that half naked faqir was a laughable disgrace)

Interesting article in Business Week:

``Pakistan: It Pays to Be Uncle Sam`s Pal
U.S. aid--and reform--are improving the country`s fortunes fast

It looks like a recipe for economic disaster. Twice in the past year, Pakistan has come to the brink of war with neighboring India. Its commercial capital, Karachi, has been plagued with sectarian killings and violence against foreigners. And its farmers are reeling from a three-year drought. So why is Pakistan`s economy looking healthier than ever? (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_14/b3827118_mz033.htm)

ahmadzai #16: Huntington places Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Turkey and Egypt as potential Muslim core states. Before reading his book, I remember stating that the above five, alongwith Malaysia, can be potential Muslim leader states. I received a lot of flak from a group that though Bangladesh should be on that list.

I don`t know why Huntington doesn`t put Malaysia on that list. Perhaps because it has a large non-Muslim population. It is the only Muslim state, which has made it out of the third world, on its own efforts. However, Huntington states, that none of the above actually have shown that they are going to be core states. He is specially hard on Turkey, calling it a, ``torn`` state. I agree.

Call me an optimist, but I have always had a lot of faith in Pakistan. I don`t know why. Perhaps because in the two professions I have been involved in (military and IT), I have seen Pakistanis blow away most countries in individual competitions. Or perhaps it is due to the lack of Indian Muslim IT students and professionals one sees in the USA, in comparison to Pakistani Muslim professionals. Perhaps because the love of the land is brainwashed into one`s mind when one is in the military, and one loses sight of reality. But I will always remain optimistic.

...paiwasta rah shajar say, umeed-i-bahar rakh......

There were two situations when I thought Pakistan had had it. One was when the Soviets and Indians had their armies piled on Pakistan`s borders during the Afghanistan invasion of 80s. The other was towards the last stages of Nawaz Sharif`s govt.

However, when people were writing Pakistan off as a failed state, I had stated that Pakistan has always had a great amount of resilience, and always makes it out of tough situations (then goes back into them - but that is a different story). And lo and behold, the coup occured, and Pakistan, for all its problems, is no longer considered a potential failed state.

I think if Ayub`s economic reforms had continued, regardless of type of govt., Pakistan would definitely be the Muslim core state. In the 60`s Pakistan economy was more powerful than Turkey`s, Malaysia`s and a few other countries combined.

The problems with Pakistan have been discussed all over the place, in detail. Hence no point in restating them. Pakistan needs to stay out of conflicts. It needs to avoid them, rather than try to win them. At the same time, Pakistan needs to develop some internal character and stand up for things it believes in.

As Kennedy said, ``.....Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate....``

As for Imran Khan and his party: My family has been involved with PTI since nearly its inception. My father was offered an MNA ticket by PTI in the recent election. He didn`t take it, but we still work for the party. I am not an active member, but I do get the info through my family. If I ever return to Pakistan, I plan to get involved actively with PTI and see what I can do.

Imran Khan is a good man. By Pakistani standards, a very good man. And by Pakistani politicians` standards, a potentially great man. Those of us who know the sincerity and almost fanatical conviction with which he built his cancer hospital will always have faith in his leadership and intentions.

Everyone in Pakistan is an armchair revolutionary. However, very few people have the guts to jump into the dirty arena of politics - specially when they have nothing to gain and a lot to lose. He is a doer, and not a talker like the rest of us. That alone makes him a better person than the talkers. Roosevelt`s following words are some of my favorite, and they apply to Imran Khan and his party:

``It is not the critic who counts;
not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles,
or where the doer of deeds could have done them better.

The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena,
whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood,
who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again;
because there is not effort without error and shortcomings;
but who does actually strive to do the deed;
who knows the great enthusiasm,
the great devotion,
who spends himself in a worthy cause,
who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement
and who at the worst, if he fails,
at least he fails while daring greatly.

So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls
who know neither victory nor defeat.``

I only started to understand Pakistani politics through my father, when he actively worked in the election before last. It is a dirty business. Almost impossible for a clean person and party to win. Yet Imran Khan has won his seat.

The odds are against him. Other than the maulvis (and Army), his party is the only group that the status quo politicos are afraid of. Believe me, the PPP and PML feudals etc. are sh//t scared of him. If he ever comes intop power, he will hang them by their balls (seriously speaking). And they know that. They is why they (PML(Q) and PPP) put up a combined candidate against him in Mianwali. And PML and MMA put up a combined candidate against him in Lahore. He almost won Lahore also.

PTI has not joined MMA. It is voting with them. There is a huge difference. One has to vote with a block in the assemblies. I would also vote with MMA. They are bad, but better than PPP and PML. There is no fourth option at the moment. If you are interested in what the PTI is thinking and its orientation, I would be more than happy to discuss it with you (though I am often out of touch). It is different from you are perceiving it to be.

no_more_a_slave

Sir, you will do everybody a favor by not using crude and abusive language. Thanks.

Pankaj @ # 21:

Are you suggesting that this is perhaps because he sells paans and beeris as full time profession. In his spare time, he contributes on this website, thereby proving to be the most IT skilled paan farosh from southern India-Northern Pakistan chain of paan and beeri khokas. Come to think of it, if he could sell Paans under the trade name `Pak-India tikaoo dushmani paan aur masala` that would be great.

A niswaar version of the same will be a sure hit in the NWFP and Eastern Afghanistan.

ha ha ha ;)

ali87

oye arab ki gandee aulad, I don`t sing the songs of any amreekan lout for god nor am I so brainwashed as to go on jihad for amreekees. Only slaves like you do.

Sameerjb,

Here is an even better write up. To understand these facts however one needs open eyes and intelligence. Haroom Moghul has neither.

Letter to the editor by Major A. H. Amin

EVERYTHING IS NOT BLACK AND WHITE OR RED OR BLUE;
THERE ARE SHADES IN BETWEEN TOO !

Sir ,

I have seen a large number of articles about Pan Islamic themes in various issues of DJ . I was however propelled to write this letter once I saw a letter by a reader chiding Iran with lethargy and indifference about Chechen Muslims ! I share the writers concern about the plight of Chechens but feel with considerable conviction that ignorance of history and extreme fervour has induced the writer to make some sweeping statements. This is no fault of the author but a common occurrence in Pakistan where a lot of lip service is paid to abstract concepts of Pan Islamism etc; while many ground realities are ignored. In addition history is not taught in a manner in schools or colleges which may enable a future adult to have a broader perspective of events. The fault lies in our educational system! Take Ahmad Shah Abdali for example. The man was a soldier of fortune who looted the Muslims of Delhi and Punjab indiscriminately but later was extolled by Iqbal as a great Muslim hero . Read Waris Shah and other Punjabi Muslim poets of 18th century Punjab and you find out that this Abdali was the worst kind of looter ! Take Aurangzeb again eulogised by Iqbal as a Muslim hero .The fact is that the man alienated all communities in India. He chastised the Pathans alienating them by punitive expeditions against tribes, making the Yusufzai fight the Khattak as a result of which Pathans stopped joining the Mughal Army at a time when the Mughals needed them the most in the Maratha insurgency (Refers pages-239 & 240-Cambridge History of India-Volume Four).

The same Aurangzeb was more keen to destroy the southern Muslim Shia kingdoms as a result of which the Mughals subsequently got involved in the Maratha war which became the Mughals Spanish Ulcer and the principal reason of decline and fall of the Mughal Empire! By removing the Shia Kingdoms Aurangzeb got inextricably involved with the Marathas who inhabited the area of the Shia Kingdoms . These Marathas found Aurangzeb`s Sunni fanaticism intolerable and waged a brilliant guerrilla war under Sivaji which laid a blue print of a guerrilla war imitated or re practised much later in Spain against Napoleon , in Vietnam against USA and much later in Afghanistan .In all cases guerrilla forces triumphed over conventional forces; whether guerrillas were Marataha Hindu , Catholic Spanish , Communist Atheist Vietnamese or Muslim Pathan or Tajik .Today these Pan Islamists think that it was triumph of Islam over Communism ! A typical case of Pan Islamic confusion! To come back to the point the problem with Pan Islamism is that many realities of history are ignored once Pan Islamists talk about Islam at an international level.

Geography, ethnicity and historical background are ignored by Pan Islamists . Take Iran`s case as an example . Iran is a Shia Muslim national state. It has defied USA successfully since 1979 more successfully than any other modern Muslim state without selling national honour as done by Pakistani governments since 1950 or by blundering into a trap like Kuwait War in case of Iraq! It is prosperous cohesive and has clear national goals. Now take Iran in relation to its neighbours. On one side is Turkey . An Islamic state if this confused label can be applied to a state which has a defence pact with Israel . Turkey has historically tried to dismember or damage Iran and the same is true for Iran`s attitude with Turkey ! In 1724 Turkey concluded an agreement with Tsarist Christian Russia to dismember and divide Muslim Iran ! (Refers-page-237 to page-238-History of Persia-Volume Two-Brigadier General Percy Sykes-London-Macmillan and Company Limited-Saint Martin`s Press-New York-1958) . Turkish Iranian rivalry which was a natural result of the fact that the two states were different ethnically and dynastically weakened both and played a major role in ensuring that Ottoman Turkey`s forces were divided between Europe and Asia. Iran also remained weak since it was engaged in a series of wars with Turkey from the sixteenth to the 19th century . Pan Islamists may cite this as a case of Islamic disunity but that is absurd ! The same was true for Christian France allying with Muslim Turkey against Christian Austria or France allying with Muslim ruled Mysore against English East India Company. Religion, alas despite all lip service to the idea remains a weak basis for statehood barring Pakistan and Israel with European Jews dominating Israel and Punjabi Muslims dominating Pakistan after having finally sucessfully getting rid of the Muslim majority province of East Bengal ! Even the first Muslim state which in reality was an Arab dominated state was basically a family affair; the first four caliphs being from Quraish and later the the Bannu Ummaya fighting the Ali-ides or the Banni Abbas fighting the Banni Ummaya. If the Holy Prophet (P.B.U.H) wanted he would have left clear guidelines ; about his successor; another legal issue which divides Muslims! History of Islam was in reality the history of Arab Muslims with all power concentrated in the hands of one clan ; a total negation of the concept of democracy as practised by the Holy Prophet ! The Arab dynasties were followed by Turkish Berber Fatimid dynasties all conveniently employing religion as a tool ; an opium to drug the masses ! The Ottoman Empire was a tyranny as far as the Arab Muslims was concerned;Muslim in name Turk in reality !The Mughals were Muslims in name following the policy of divide and rule using Hindu Generals against Pathan Muslims or Hindu Rajput generals against Maratha Hindus ! This was not a negation of Pan Islamism . Islam was good as a slogan but the Mughals had to deal with a larger number of non Muslims. The Pakistan idea emerged only after the Muslims feared persecution from a Hindu majority. But even religion failed once the Bengali Muslims felt that they were being fooled in the name of Islam by the West Pakistani ruling elite ! The Punjabi Muslim politicians raised the slogan of parity to safeguard West Pakistani/Punjabi Muslim interests against possible Bengali Muslim domination ! Exactly in the same manner as done by the Muslim League to escape Hindu majority`s domination ! Now we have PONAM BNM ANP MQM STTP etc. The reason is not that these are traitors but because ethnicity is also important . Mere religion is no panacea of all evils ! If it was not so there would be no quota system!

Pan Islamism was picked up by Jamal Afghani in second half of 19th century . It`s a good slogan but overlooks certain concrete historical facts . How could for example Indian Muslims support Egyptian Muslims once Alexandria was bombarded in 1882 or once the British fought the Second Afghan War in 1878-80 . The Egyptians had no link with India apart from a common religion ! The Afghans had systematically looted Indian Muslims independently or as mercenaries of Persia from 1739 to 1799 ! Ahmad Shah Abdali warned the Muslim Pathans of Rohailkhand and Upper Doab to be more careful with Shia Oudh than against Marathas ! About 13 years later Shia Muslim Oudh hired a British East India Company brigade to destroy Pathan Muslim Rohailkhand ! Sir Syed Ahmad Khan rightly advised the Indian Muslims not to think the Turkish Khalifa as Khalifa of India ! The Arabs knew much better about the Turk`s Islamic fervour ! The British were the de facto rulers of India ! The fact was forgotten by the Indian Muslims much later and the Khilafat movement however heroic damaged the cause of Indian Muslims. The Turks under Kemal the `Grey Wolf` of Anatolia proved wiser and kicked out the ridiculous Khalifa !

Now to come back to Iran :- (1) How could Iran sell out to the Russians in 1979 when it was itself in the middle of a traumatic revolution and confronting USA which the Pakistani leadership since 1951 has shamelessly wooed, only be kicked once Pakistan needed crucial US help in 1965 and 1971! Zia on the other hand sold Pakistan to the US once the Russians occupied Afghanistan in order to preserve his seat! The military regime was isolated internally as well as externally! Internally, it had reneged on a promise of elections within 90 days, and externally, it had no support! Russian intervention in Afghanistan gave it a golden excuse to stay in power and to get US aid! The Afghans were helped not because of Islam but because they were a good means to get dollars from the US and Saudi Arabia! So much for the Islamic fervour! Pakistan got billions of dollars of US aid most of which was pilfered by Zia and his generals and air marshals! The evidence of this can be seen in the assets of many Jullundhri Pathans or Hindustani generals as held today or those of their sons who are not corrupt politicians by any definition since they are general`s sons! (2) What happened in Afghanistan? The US financed a large number of groups, Pathan, Uzbek, Tajik, Hazara, Persian speaking to fight a proxy war. All these groups were Muslim in name but in reality Pathan, Tajik or Uzbek. The Afghan war was a much smaller affair than Vietnam. While about 60,000 Americans died in Vietnam only 14000 Russians died in Afghanistan, an average of 1200 per year. A very insignificant figure in Russian military history keeping in view the fact that about 1,700,000 (Refers-pages-986 and 987 -Hitler and Stalin- Alan Bullock-Alfred. A.Knopf-New York-1992) Russians died in WW One and 13 ,600,000 in WW Two!

Compare Afghanistan with Vietnam in terms of ethnicity versus religion. I think that the best thing about the Russian invasion of Afghanistan was the fact that the Tajiks, Uzbeks and Hazaras who had been third rate citizens in a Pathan dominated Afghanistan since 1799 became first rate citizens ! A fact which even today is very irritating and unpleasant for the Taliban which is a deadly anti Shia and essentially Pathan Sunni Group! The Vietnamese were one race and had one ideology. Vietnam is stable and prosperous today without being Muslim or Christian! The Afghans are disunited and in much worse shape in 2000 than in 1988 when the last Russian soldier left its soil ! What is Hekmatyar without US or ISI aid ! Where is his Islamic fervour now ! More was at stake than Islam! CIA dollars in millions were stashed by CIA and ISI operatives or generals and air marshals in Chase Manhattan or Bank of Cheats and Crooks (BCCI)! The only genuine man was Ahmad Shah Masud who did not become a tool of foreign intelligence agencies and is still fighting not based in a Madarssa financed by an Arab anti Shia state or intelligence agency of a foreign country but by virtue of being a man of substance ! Who are the Taliban ! How have they suddenly replaced so-called charismatic Mujahideen commanders like Hekmatyar, Khaliq Abdul Haq etc ! The change proves that Afghanistan was a manipulated affair ! The controls were elsewhere ! The problem is that one country cannot manipulate another endlessly! As the conditions in Afghanistan stabilise, it will be more and more difficult for external powers to manipulate the country! Either there will be a sellout in 2000 or Pakistan will suffer the ravages of a low intensity limited or full war in case adventurism in intelligence agencies is not curbed ! The Afghan Jehad a misnomer was in reality a CIA Jehad and that is why the Afghans are in the shape they are today ! Their leaders in league with Pakistan`s military junta gobbled millions of US dollars and now they talk of confrontation with US ! My knowledge of Pathan history tells me that there will be a sellout in 2000 ! So much for the Taliban and the Osama business ! (3) Few people know that in 1982 at the height of Iran Iraq war General Zia despatched a military advisory group to Iraq ! These people were not there to teach the Iraqi`s harmless first aid tactics but were dealing with Iraqi armour and infantry officers fighting a war with another Islamic country! So much for Pakistan`s solidarity with Iran! (3) Now coming to Iran`s dealings with Russia. Iran at the moment is moving towards close cooperation with Russia. Russia is transferring nuclear technology and also supplying military hardware to Iran. This is most essential for Iran since today`s world with a unipolar scenario is far more insecure for smaller states. Muslim, Christian or Atheist than before 1989 ! Why should Iran antagonise the Russians! This is not a sellout. The Iranians are pursuing their national interests, just like Pakistan`s usurpers were following their personal interests once they sold Pakistan albeit cheaply and without achieving much to the USA in 1950s or in 1977-88 ! Now coming straight to Chechnya . I have visited Russia twice in 1995 and 1996. Till 1996 the Chechens were doming well in Russia ! They were prominent in Moscow, dominating the Mafia at least marginally and the General Manager of Hotel Raddisson where I was staying was a Chechen! I discussed Chechnya in great detail with this gentleman and many Chechens! The issue is more complicated than we in Pakistan know. The Chechens were happy with the semi independent political status they had achieved in 1996. Only the radical Islamists who were a marginal although well organised group were unhappy. They wanted to export their brand of Islamic radicalism to Daghestan a more liberal and peaceful Muslim state! The present trouble into which Chechnya got into is the result of the absurd and nut headed approach of these Chechen Muslim radicals. Sending guerrillas to Daghestan. Planting bombs in civilian flats in Moscow! These were the acts that provoked the Russian government to attack Chechnya ! The Russians were unhappy when their government attacked Chechnya in 1995 or in 1979-88 when they attacked Afghanistan. They regarded these wars as adventurism. Now the situation is different. Now the average Russian regards the present war as a just war! Russian public opinion is solidly behind Russian government. It is not the question of Islam versus Christianity as is being made out in Pakistan! The Russians are a people with a barbarian past ! They were ruled by Tartar Muslims, oppressive Romanovs and the totalitarian Bolsheviks. More Russians have died fighting each other than Muslims against Russians. In the Russian Civil War fought in 1917-22 almost ten million people died! A number much larger than the total population of Chechnya ! Chechnya houses some of Russia`s largest oil and gas reserves ! It is not Afghanistan which was many hundred miles away from mainland Russia. Its possession is vital to Russia . The Russians can easily conduct military operations unlike Afghanistan where logistic cost of supplying or sustaining military operations was the principal cause of Russian withdrawal! Its just like Balochistan which the Pakistani government would not allow to secede; not because for any special love for the Baloch Muslims; but simply because the province houses Pakistan`s largest gas reserves and is geopolitically essential for Pakistan`s security! East Pakistan was lost because of geography but Balochistan`s geography condemns it to be a province of a larger federal state !

The Afghanistan analogy is not applicable to Chechnya. The Russians withdrew from Afghanistan not because they were militarily defeated but because Gorbachev rightly assessed that staying on was not cost effective (Pages-207 & 208- Out of Afghanistan-Cordovez and Harrison-Oxford-1995). Chechnya is an altogether different case because Russian presence there is cost effective because of Chechen oil! The political situation in Russia is once again stabilising. The Communists are once again regaining strength while Putin is likely to emerge as a strong statesman. No amount of statements from the OIC can change the situation. If the Russians are ignoring the OSCE and USA why should they bother about OIC! Why should Iran surrounded by three hostile or potentially hostile neighbours and one super power which every year allocates funds to destabilise Iran antagonise the Russians ; their only trustworthy ally!

Where is Islam in case of Kurds! How many Kurds have died fighting Iranian Iraqi and Turkish armies since the last one hundred years! I think ten times more than total number of Chechens killed from January 1999! Where is the Islam of the Islamic Contact Group in case of Kurds who are condemned for eternity to be subjects of Iran, Iraq and Turkey. The first modern Chemical Warfare attack was carried out against the Iraqi Kurds during the Iran-Iraq war! Where was Islam when genocide was committed in 1971 by a Muslim (a misconceived misnomer!) Army against the Bengali Muslims! Religion, ideology etc is nothing but cheap tools employed by the ruling elite to galvanise and drug the masses! The middle class and the feudal clique of UP and Punjab became interested in Muslim separatism only once their class interests were threatened with competitive examinations and concepts of British democracy! The same was true for the Hindu middle and business classes that joined the congress! They thought that they would succeed the British Viceroys in ruling entire India! Hinduism was only a slogan, just as was the case with the Muslim elite! Religion is a good slogan but only a slogan! Democracy ends immediately when Muslims leave the Mosque! Lip service is paid but that is where Islam ends!

It will be good for our intellectual health if we forget about Pan Islamism and try to set our own house in order! So far we have miserably failed even to stay as one nation in case of East Pakistan! Today we have the smaller ethnic group`s issue which is intricate as well as genuine and demands good statesmanship which is sadly lacking both in India and Pakistan ! Both have been termed as `failed states` by political scientists ! Both have a history of using coercive power of a modern state against smaller ethnic groups e.g. Kashmir 1989-2000, East Pakistan-1971 , Balochistan 1958-64, Balochistan 1974-77 etc etc. Both the states have been steadily involved in an arms race that will end only once a war limited or total is finally fought . A dispassionate study of history proves that men are but victims of currents of history and cannot change the tide of history! Europe learned its lesson after two world wars and is saner ! China learned its lesson from 1911-1949 and is now saner ! Unfortunately Pakistan and India have fought small wars ; petty skirmishes by western standards in which total casualties of each side was less than 10,000 killed. That is why both have hawks; theoretical hawks I would say; arm chair strategists; Don Quixote`s who think that Kashmir can we won (Pakistan) or retained (India)! The motivation of the ruling elite on both sides is ulterior! Its not ideology Islam or secularism but ego, powers, lusts for glory! Bismarck`s does not lead them or Churchill`s but myopic men with limited vision, short-term goals and personal agendas advised by dark horse adventist intelligence agencies! Sundarji called them blind men of Hindustan ; a better name may be `Blind men of Hind-o-Pak`! These are shortsighted men who have not understood what General Sherman said at Atlanta after the US Civil War i.e. `there are many a boys here who think of war as glory, but it is hell!` As a soldier I wish that both the countries should either fight it out so that we at least discover (I would say rediscover or confirm as far as ex soldiers are concerned!) The qualitative efficiency of our general officers or arrive at a settlement! Otherwise it`s a never-ending game of musical chairs, which the ruling elite of both the countries is making the common man play! The qualities of generalship and mediocrity in higher ranks on both sides have been well proved in 1947-48, 1965 and 1971! 2000 if it proves decisive will inshaallah prove as no exception.

And lastly Pan Islamism is dangerous . It is better if we concentrate on setting our own house in order.

Major A.H Amin

#17 by no_more_a_slave on April 2, 2003 6:25am PT

you and Sageer sahab protest too much. What if the Indoenasians wear arab like dress and sport their mannerisms.

Dont you wear western clothes and think and write in a western language also you philoshopy that you follow is western the books that you read are western the movies that you see is western.

--------
The new and old settlements of Muslim population around the world have created ghettos in almost every country , which stemmed from their the refusal to integrate socially-----

Integrate with whom??

As I recall there is no racial discrimination in Islam either did the west invent this concept of no racial discrimination. as late as a couple of decades the paragons of Western culture were defending and doing business with the Apartheid Regime in South Africa, Playing cricket matches etc. How come they did not fit it right to bomb the white regime in South Africa?

Perhaps you should change the your name to now_with_a_new_master.

There is country which says that its intrests in a country thousands of miles away are more important than the intersts of the people living in those countries.

A defeated people in world war 1 had no chance to develop. At the time of defeat remember what was the state of race policy in United States.

From that defeat onwards various regimes were propped up. Interference in process of finding new paths to development and stability has bought the worst among the people to power. Who suppourts the Military in Turkey which interferes in the democratic wishes of the people. who props up the regimes in Saudi, Baharian, muscat, Egypt, Jordan, Sirya Pakistan burma algeria ealrlier who propped up the Islamic fighters against the communist and socialists in Afghanistan, Who props the dictators right now in Azerbeijan, and a clutch of central asian republics?

on one had people point out that the largest military in the world is the US and bieing bigger than the next nine powers, Europe and US consist of 70% of the worlds economic output. What chance do the people hav to remove the puppets backed by this sheer eonomic and military might.

It is not as if the muslims rejected Democracy.

Im taking an exceprpt out of Prof Shahid Alam`s aritcle.

``Muhammad Ali of Egypt appointed his first advisory council in 1824, consisting mostly of elected members.

In 1881, the Egyptian nationalist movement succeeded in convening an elected parliament, but this was aborted only a year later by British occupation.

Tunisia had promulgated a constitution in 1860, setting up a Supreme Council purporting to limit the powers of the monarchy. But this was suspended in 1864 when the French discovered that it interfered with their ambitions.

Turkey elected its first parliament in 1877, though it was dissolved a year later by the Caliph; a second parliament was convened in 1908.

Iran`s progress was more dramatic. It started with protests against a British tobacco monopoly in the 1890s, and quickly led to an elected parliament in 1906, with powers to confirm the cabinet. A year later, however, the British and Russians carved up Iran into their spheres of influence, a development that would lead to the dissolution of the parliament in 1910. Nevertheless, the constitutional movement persisted until it was suppressed in 1931 by a new dynasty brought to power by the British.``

------

On attempts at Industrialisation.


``An early and deter-mined Egyptian effort to industrialize - initiated in 1810 - was dismantled by the British and French in 1840. When the Egyptians mobilized again in the 1870s, it led to their colonization in 1882. Britain, France and Israel mounted another invasion of Egypt as recently as 1956.

This suggests some sobering reflections for those who would blame the present troubles on Islam`s antipathy to modernity. Imagine if the Egyptian bid to industrialize had not been dismantled by imperialist Britain and France; it is then likely that an industrialized Egypt would eventually have led the entire region to industrial growth, prosperity and power. This thought experiment explains why Egypt`s industrial drive had to be aborted. An industrialized Middle East may have renewed the old threat of Islam to Europe.``

Now, now post #20 by Sameer is what I call the most informartive post on this board. His attention to the details is praiseworthy and the gamut of knowledge about paans and their different South Asian varieties, if accurate is impressive :-)

nazarhayatkhan:
[Our future must lie in South Asia - A secular SAARC `economic` federation]

Absolutley. Totally agree with you.

no-more-a-slave:

What is the source of that fantastic article by Mohd. Sageer. His name sounds like a Bengali Muslim. Please post the source, if possible.

Veeresh:

Islamabad is not known for fancy paan shops like Karachi or few in Lahore. most of them are small stalls like we see for paan and calling cards in Jackson Heights, NY. Invariably paan shops sell cigarettes also but I suppose profit margin is more in paan than cigarettes.

Sangam Paan House is in lower middle class market for the last 25 or more years. Whole geenration is grown up buying cigarettes and paan from this stall. Now-a-days a paaN costs 2.50-3.00 rupees. The paan parag is not popular among Panjabis but gulqand is. Most urban Panjabis eat paan casually loaded with fragrances and colored sweet things.

In the past, wrapping paan used to be with newspaper quality paper but now it is two layered, first aluminum foil and then magazine quality paper. Sada paan are wrapped more like two dimentional flat symmetrical triangle whereas Panjabi style metha paan because of uits load is wrapped in a cone like fashion.

Unlike in India and Gujrati paans, Panjabi paan does not use whole paan leaf. They cut two or three three paans out of one leaf and katha is a must, unlike Bengali paan where just choona is used. In Panjab, beetlenut is also chopped finer than usual and no roasted beetlenuts are used.

Tough I am all for SAARC type economic union but somehow south Indian paan stuff and achaar and sambar and idli and use of tamarind have not made any headway in Panjabi, Sindhi, Pathan or Balochi hinterland like tobacco smoking.

By the way paan shops also sell beedies and agarbattis. Pakistani agarbattis prefer rose fragrance but Pakistani beedies are no match for flavored beedies from central India, those which are finely wrapped and packaged. India is light years ahead in beedies research and manufacturing. However the Manglore Ganesh beedies suck. That is such an insult to great god Ganesha and his wisdom.

Among Pakistani politicians, only Maulana Maudoodi was habitual paan eater. Altaf Bhai also looks to be a paan eater but that might be just his Bihari features. Musharraf is also hooked on Hyderabadi paan parag, particularly after dinner or during smoking cigarettes.

so serous discussion.arn``t u guys getting bore?here is some thing to laugh
A man dies and goes to hell.
>>There he finds that there is a different hell for each country.
>>He goes first to the German hell and asks What do they do here?``
>>
>>He is told ``First they put you in an electric chair for an hour.
>>Then they lay you on a bed of nails for another hour.
>>Then the German devil comes in and whips you for the rest of the
>>day.``
>>
>>The man does not like the sound of that at all, so he moves on.
>>He checks out the USA hell as well as the Russian hell and many
>>more.
>>He discovers that they are all more or less the same as the German
>>hell.
>>
>>Then he comes to the Pakistani hell
>>and finds that there is a very long line of people waiting to get
>>in.
>>Amazed he asks ``What do they do here?``
>>He is told ``First they put you in an electric chair for an hour.
>>Then they lay you on a bed of nails for another hour.
>>Then the Pakistani devil comes in and whips you for the rest of the
>>day.``
>>
>>``But that is exactly the same as all the other hells -
>>why are there so many people waiting to get in?``
>>
>>``Because there is 59 min load shadding in one hr period ,
>>so the electric chair does not harm as it take on minute to start
>>working ,
>>someone stole all the nails, and the devil used to be a public
>>servant,
>>so he comes in , signs his time register and then goes back home.
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>

ARAB INDOCTRINATION AND COLONIAL SLAVERY (Born in Pakistan, preaching Arabism)


By Mohd Sageer

September 11th 2001 tarnished the image of humanity. The aftermath of the event stirred up many questions about the issues and concepts of ethics, principles and freedom . Topics that were considered beyond criticism under the pretext of political correctness lost their impunity. Islam and its principles had to put up with open debates and un-inhibited questionings of common people on several Islamic practices and intentions as never before in its history.

As the US prepares for a war with Iraq, world population has taken to streets in protests organising rallies and demonstrations that have become rife with chartings of anti-war rhetoric. But the deafening silence of the Muslim clerics as regards what led to this abominable situation still remains a paradox . Mahathir, the prime minister of Malaysia has said `` The US war is not against Iraq but to Muslims around the world `` .

Ever since Indonesia was accredited to the world`s largest Muslim population , it has also become by default a waggling tail of Arab colonisation. The lost identity of Indonesia as a nation of heterogeneous people that was once composed of Bhuddists, Hindus Muslims , Christians, and other traditional belief systems is just a memory in the face of continuous Arab influence on its culture just as happened in Egypt, Persia, Iraq, Sudan, Afghanistan and most recently in Pakistan. The Indonesian job seekers, whose influx to the Middle East countries, especially to Saudi Arabia dates back to more that 25 Years, easily assimilated to the host countries` strict Islamic rules and customs as most of them belonged to the semi-literate or illiterate category of domestic helpers who were also docile in nature. With the new acquired wealth, their return to home country was a triumph for Arab nations for these workers were also carrying along with the petro-dollars , a pro-Arab attitude and cultural subjugation.

A quick glance at the Indonesian demonstrations will make you confused as to whether these are Middle Eastern rallies in that the crowd`s attire and overall appearance where women wearing the very conspicuous hijab and abaya while men with their trade- mark beard moving often in disdasha , even sharing the same mannerisms of Arab people. All of these display defy the age old Indonesian cultural identity except for the peoples` oriental features.

The destruction of the statue of Buddha in Bamiyan in Afghanistan explicitly symbolised the intolerant nature of Islam. The Hindukush mountains and the , city of Khandahar fortunately somehow retain their original names which link them with the ancient Indus civilisation and vedic history. A race of Aryans, and inspite of their own strong and influential characteristics , the Afghan people pitiably fell for the Arabs` ideology and way of life.

Zarathustra must be tossing and turning in his grave for he might have hardly imagined his own people would ditch him for another sets of belief system. Lord Ahura Mazda has no place in the hearts of Iranian people. Their ancient celebrations , festivals and traditions are considered taboo under the new Arab-Islamic oriented theocratic regime.

History is replete with constant attempts for domination of one culture over the other . The predominant western culture whose overall image can be at best described as it laid a strong foundation for individual`s freedom of _expression, compassion to humanity , racial and gender equality. And at worst it has ignored the sentiments of other ethnic civilisations around the world inflicting more wounds particularly on indigenous American Indians. However the profane nature of the modern -western imperialism did more good than harm to humanity. Modern and advanced nations consider the oppression of people as the most deplorable act.

In contrast, the Arab`s invisible indoctrination and encroachment on cultural and religious freedom of individuals have become the bane of this century. The new and old settlements of Muslim population around the world have created ghettos in almost every country , which stemmed from their the refusal to integrate socially. The friction , the rift and the apprehension created by this scenario between Muslims and rest of the world societies have become alarmingly dangerous, that if not curtailed will contribute to the repetitions of September 11 .


``V I Mohd. Sageer``

Hey SameerJB, how much does a palang-tod motichoor paan cost at your Sangam Paan House?

Just wondering if there is a business proposition here somewhere!!

#1 by ahmadzai on April 1, 2003 10:25am PT

Let us make Pakistan into an economic and military force and become a role model for other Muslim countries to show them the light.

------
I think that you are still barking up the wrong tree.

Economic power comes from first educatoin, freeing the socitey from schism, allowing fair business envoriment and most of all a enforceable law system, a system in which all people not only feel safe but feel they have as much a chance as the other.

This route to economic power is stable and will bring continuing rewards.If it was just economic power then Saudi would have become a big power.

A much smaller Iran (population wise)has a better chance than pakistan at present. Its education level is high It has a enforceable law system. It has good oil reserves. The socitey is taking up its issues and tackling them inclluding issues of women, role of religion and the extent it should play a role in the life of the socitey.


But pakistan can attempt to change the scenario. At least in the past it had many advantages a large labour force in Gulf bringing in Remittences, US which was financing a good chunk of its miitary budget. I could have really focussed on changing the face of its socitey.

However It remaines unchanged. The fedual structrue inherited remains intact. The langauage/ethnic shchism remains intact with punjabis being the favoured people. Most of the economic power remains in hands of a handful of families. All attention on Kashmir leads the Army to dominate in public life. There is no muslim alternative to the socicalism practiced by nehru. He broke the landed class in India to a large extent. It is only when the control of economic recources is widely distributed that people are able to take on a competitive role in economic activity. Saudi arabia despite its wealth has not been able to come up with a vibrant socitey for this reason. Without economic incentive people tend to become complacent.
It still has a chance. It could ally again with Saudi Arabia, and Iran, Provide stability in the region by negotating in Kashmir and thus playing a responsible role in Afghanistan. Its subustantial population is a plus and it is capable of sustaining itself in agriculturaly.
In fact there is already a nation which the muslims can follow ie Malaysia. though not very powerful it is on the right path to development. Only It seems to lack the intecuall development that is required for producing people of science though it is good in technology. This does benifit Malaysia much but the bigger benift is to the people who own the technonlgyie the western countries. Being a manufacturing base is not enough you have to innovate and be leaders in some key technogies.

However it all starts with building a equitable and responsible socitey. Kashmirs will do alright for themselves there is no need to worry about them. It is important to make the social transformation first and that is unlikely to happen until the Military and the Religous right call the shots.


Sustainable economic power will lead to strong military just plain economic power and military power will lead to nothing.

Romair at # 8:

You wrote:
``For the above to happen, and spread across the Muslim world, at least one Muslim nation needs to emerge out of the third world and become successful. Such a nation would then become, as Huntington states, a, ``core state`` for the Muslim civilization. This nation would then serve as the role model for other Muslim nations and would act as its unofficial leader in international conflicts - much like the USA does for the Western world China will eventually do for the chapta world). ``

Huntington, if I recall correctly, talks about potential states for this slot as Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan and Turkey. I would add to it Iran and Malaysia. Iran however, because of our slightly different version of Islam and being a theocracy may not be acceptable to a majority of Muslim countries.

IMHO, unless any one of the above states has the following 3 , it would not be acceptable to the rest of the Muslim countries:

1. Economic strength of at least equivalent of Malaysia
2. Military strength that surpasses all the other states in this group
3. Social indicators better than any other states in this group.

I personally think if Pakistanis become inwardly focused for a few years and see the role model thing as a vision then we may be in for it. Otherwise, with economy in shambles, Pakistan will always be considered a liability by our rich Arab brothers.

And focusing on the former lines is very hard for emotional Pakistanis. For example, the way public wants our country to challenge the might of the USA in its war on Iraq is sickening. Also, raising the issue of Ummah every now and then and in each and every TV program (all channels) makes me sick. I think that we need to send all Pakistanis on a week long orientation program to Gulf countries for a reality check so that they are able to see the respect that Pakistanis have in Arab countries.

``Do I hear the words, ``Tehrik-i-Insaaf`` being whispered somewhere over the horizon........:)``

Please don`t have many expectations from Imran Khan. He has finally decided to tow the line of the MMA and has actually begun to look more of an MMA Mulla than a Change Manager that he would have liked to be. With each of his sentence starting from ``hamaari asl budkismati yeh hay kay ...`` I think he is not able to figure out where to lay the blame on and from where to start the change from if he is elected to power.

Urstruly
``...and I think the current American aggression has only given the necessary catalyst that it needed to accelerate.``

As usual you`re straight as jelabi. The catalyst was 9/11. You Wahabis have finally awoken the ugly Sleeping Giant. It took 40 years of Lockerbie, Munich Olympics, Achilli Lauro and many embassy bombings, to name only a few. You finally got your Clash of Civilizations. You idiots walk up to the biggest guy in the bar and sucker punch him then whine like hell when he kicks your sorry asses, like the Six Day War of 67. Ab dance caron?

We observers can only run for cover in the obvious aftermath. Welcome to WW III. You always become what you fight most. OBL et al have become George Bush and vice versa. What you and your Wahabbi bretheren seem to share with George Bush, is a total lack of imagination - it`s the deadly, all-or-nothing inflexible rage of coddled and spoiled (male) children.

If you don`t yet believe this is WW III, wait until the next shoe drops. God save us all from morons like you.