An Answer to the Pro War Surrealists

#46 dostmittar
Were I an Iraqi, I`d be celebrating too in the hope that the oppressive sanctions regime would come to an end and that I would be considered a human again. There has never been a satisfactory explanation why the new humanitarians destroyed iraq`s infrastructure towards the fag end of the gulf war and made sure that Iraq stayed crippled and how they have become suddenly concerned about the welfare of the Iraqis. If recent past is any guide, the Iraqis will be shafted by their new colonial masters.
The pro-war crowd stands exposed having its repeated lies (al-qaeda connection, WMD, threat to the USA) called to question and its stance is propped up with a single, solitary tottering leg of an argument about introducing democracy. If they hadn`t lied repeatedly searching for excuses, they`d have some credibility left. When all else failed, they invented the `road map for peace` for the middle east. There`s total mayhem in Gaza and not a peep from the humanitarians. Their gun is trained on Syria now. Expect to hear about black september and all that in the coming weeks and months.

Straws in the winds:- an enquiry has been placed for almost 120000 English speaking teachers from India (various subjects, junior/middle/senior) for Iraq schools.

Go, Kottayam, Go!!

Sri, stuka, tuntunia,

Oye! Where were you 10 years ago when Hussein was attacking his own people? Where are your posts condemning him before the last 6 months?

Lets see some proof before you gloat.

#45 by tahmed32

I am glad that atleast we can answer each other`s posts in a civil manner. I did indeed use strong words for you in your article but it was meant at that time and I have apologised to you once already for using the harsh words....and for nothing else. The point being cleared let me first begin by saying that the West as an entity is not evil. It is a certain portion of the ``White`` (and I use this word in purely an anthropological point of view) have always viewed the rest of the world as they would have their plantation only a hundred years ago. My absolute anger at the current American Government is that it is filled up to the neck with these White Supremecist like your president and Zionists like Perle and Wolfowitz. I use the two words and I indeed am going to give you the evidence, their is a certain tract that flows within families. I am sure a lot of posts would have pointed out that Bush`s Grandfather was Bankrolling the nazis. Now you may say that doesnt make bush a supremecist, its true and therefore we will ignore the argument. But lets look at other evidence, Bush is a born again Christian and the preachers around him represent the Fundamentalist America that professes violent means to attain the Holy Land for the second coming of christ. The preachers that surround him like Franklin Graham( Who incidentaly is in Iraq Now) have an extreme hate for the religion of islam. We move to the next argument, the zionists, as we can see that Israelisation of America is complete. A gentlemen used a few words against the jews in another post and the anger by the other Chowkies was amazing. Mr Perle and his comrades were all present in Reagan`s time advising upon how to reenforce Israel. You cannot go anywhere in the United States where you will find unfavourable view of Israel, the universities have watchdogs that basically report any anti Israel behaviour and terms it as Anti Semite. Forgetting that the Arabs were the descendents of Shem , Son of Abaraham as well. Anyways moving back to the zionists, we see Mr Perle and Rumsfield and Wolfowtiz, publishing a paper that called for US intervention in the middle east as early as the 70s. Nasserite Pan Arab era was a deterant at that time. Saddam remained the last Pan arab force in the region. The man was evil , so the west professed , he was placed there to contain the Shite Khomeni Revolution, the west does not profess. We move on, now this christian zionist government controls the US. It has conducted two wars on Muslim Countries to date. Israel has lost its only foe in the region, the illegal settlements continue.

Therefore when the American public as innocent as they maybe in your opinion become party to this illegal war. The lines are drawn. I do believe that my youth takes the better of me sometimes. But i have been given a world by our fathers where we are reduced to a level of absurd nothingness. Where the only way we get the west`s attention is if some of our more violent and obssessive young people fly planes into their trade centres. Now it is called the worst thing that could have been done to humanity in all history. I disagree, i think its far lower than the bombing of Hiroshima , Nagasaki...., the rape of Vietnam and the carpet bombing of Nicaragua to name a few. I am angry because sometimes that is all that i have left. So yes you might say that our anger is misdirected that we should open our eyes and let the Americans do what they want, as in the end, we too will be dancing in the streets of our own baghdads. Smiling at our occupiers, hugging and kissing. Like the shites did in lebanon, two year before they drove a truck into an american military compound, killing hundreds, and driving the americans out. But many of us will not make it to the dancing, and beware as when the dancing stops , the chaos begins, as it begins in Iraq today. Is the only way forward for the rest of the world is to accept the butchery of the west and dance on their streets once they are savagely bombed/liberated?

So how do you feel that we should contain our anger????

ferozk #49 A country of 25 million people is freed from a brutal, pharaoh-like dictator after decades of oppression. And all you can tell me in your post that property is being looted? That the embassy of germany is worried about its furniture?

I think you are scraping at the bottom of the barrel, trying to defend your ideological belief that this is a war of colonialism. Forget your preconceived notions for a day. Put concern for people before ideology.

For myself, I was thrilled to see Saddam`s palace being looted. When I saw this smiling young Iraqi man walk away from Uday`s palace with one of Uday`s horses - a beautiful white stallion - I was very happy. When I saw the woman carrying a table on her head and a big smile on her face, I was happy. When I saw the man walking away with some more furniture from one of Saddam`s palaces saying ``Thank You, Thank you, USA``, I was happy. The Iraqi people deserve the right to enjoy their day in the sun, after decades of watching their wealth being looted by Saddam.

I have seen a number of Arab intellectuals on TV saying that they feel this is a day of humiliation for Arabs since Saddam was so easily defeated. I agree with them for once. It is indeed a day of humiliation for these Arab intellectuals. BUT NOT because Saddam`s forces were swept away. BUT because these ``intellectuals`` have demonstrated their disgusting mindset - which is one of arrogance, of being macho men. In expressing their sorrow, they have exposed their lack of concern for the feelings of the ordinary people in Iraq. This is the true shame of these Arab ``intellectuals``. Their arrogance and inhumanity. The US troops did not expose this arrogance. The Arab intellectuals did it themselves on TV. Just as Saddam exposed his arrogance with his pharaon-like statues that now lie in dust, spat upon and kicked by the people he oppressed and whose wealth he looted for so long.

I hope you will think about this a bit, and while you may feel offended by what I write, I hope at some point you will understand the point I am trying to make. Dont let ideology blind you to reality. And put people first, not ideology.

PS: We all know that this euphoria will not last for more than a few days. We all know that law and order will have to be restored and things put back to business as usual. We all know that looting can easily get out of hand and ordinary Iraqis can also fear for their property. So I too hope this will stop in a day or two, once people have let out their feelings against Saddam by looting, by destroying his pictures. However, that is no excuse either for ignoring the feelings of the ordinary people of Iraq or for avoiding the truth. Just saying that I am on my knees while you are on your feet isnt going to get you to the truth. It is simply a way for you to hide from the truth.

Bhitai #55 The political situation in Iraq has of course been destabilized. As it should have been, since stability meant starting a Saddam Hussein dynasty of evil kings in that country (Uday was being groomed). Stability meant that anyone who dared to challenge Saddam - shiite clergy, kurds, even his own sons-in-law - were killed. This is stability from hell, and good riddance to it.
Democracy is indeed messy. Many people say many things. And God Bless them all, as far as I am concerned. Democracies in the long run come through in shining colors.

PS: Incidentally (and I am exerting my democratic right on chowk to speak up) when you write ``Ayatollah Sistani and Saeed Al-Hakim are the two most revered religious figures in Iraq``, that does not impress me. As muslims, we should revere only God, and good values of honesty and truth. Not men. All men are equal before God. And in a democracy too. One day we muslims will start understanding these basic things and stop worshipping ideologies and maulvis.

Anyone following the Indian press? I chuckle every time I see lefties talk about this war. One of the most bitter lot of people on earth these days only second to Jihadists. Both groups accuse others of double standards and hypocrisy but are Himalyas of hypocricy themselves. Some of them cloak themselves under the name of Progressives here in US. America is a sore thumb sticking in the behinds of these groups. One thing common in them, all want America down and on its knees. Dream on guys!

Sri,

re:

``...that ``entertaining piece`` by Bill Davidson picked up Saminashah is from a white supremacist ( neo nazis) website. Looks like Saminashah is a regular visitor to that site...``

Actually, someone emailed it to me and I posted it on Chowk. Are you familliar with how that works? Ironically enough even sickos like white supremacists can have the brains enough to post something witty and yet just beyond their comprehension-kind of like the logic you displayed in your post.

And how did YOU know the source of the post? My emailer didn`t...unless of course you got it off some BJP website to which you are frequent visitor...

#48
Tahmed sahib
despite all the media hype, the shiites in Basra aren`t happy anymore with the colonial tactics of their liberators. Let`s read what Newsweek has to say:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/898518.asp?0cl=c1
`It’s all a pretty scary preview of things to come throughout Iraq—especially in the Shiite areas—as Iraqis and Coalition forces try to unravel the tangle of tribal politics, Baathist collaborators, and religious passions. Unless they do, they won’t be able to restore much needed civil order in Basra and many other cities as well. `

- So, the British imposed a `sheik` on Basra, they hate him already.
- the British airlifted a `shiite scholar` from england, THEY KILLED HIM!!

Janab Ahmed sahib, iraq seems to be all set for the birth of the next `party of God`. Ayatollah hakim (who lost 7 of his brothers to Saddam regime) remains the MOST POPULAR opposition figure in Iraq, even according to the western media. Ayatollah Sistani and Saeed Al-Hakim are the two most revered religious figures in Iraq, both aligned with the SCIRI folks , who aren`t particulary fond of characters like Garner and Chilabi. Beghad isn`t the political powerhose it used to be, if there`s any city that needs to bless the coalition, it`s Najaf, and Najaf ain`t doing that.

#44 by Saminasha on April 11, 2003 8:07am PT

These people who suppourt the war not just suppourt the war in context of a particular issue (ie the Iraq issue) their suppourt comes from advancing the american agenda. The context is irrevalent to them. If you have noticed that they always say that US made mistakes always in the past thus can be forgiven/forgotten etc. they committed mistakes in 1948, in 1960, in 1970, 1980, 1990 and continue doing so now. We are suppossed to always view these mistakes in retrospective manner, not in a preventive manner. the result of their mistakes are of course not felt by the US unless it is a 9/11 or a saddam in which case they are free to do what they want. That a few lakhs or millons die because of it is irrelevant as US is a democracy and has free press. I am yet to see any critical analysis of the US acts (not being balalnced by its democracy or free press, after all what benifit is US democracy to people suppressed by their favourite tyrants) by the likes of tahamed`s of this world.

Just in a hypothecial scenario would it be right for anyone to bomb US and liberate Black people from seggeration in the 1950ies? In fact this rule does not apply to the white people. When Nelson Mandela was similarly waging a largely peacful war against the White regime in South Africa US and UK (axis of evil, for decades!) he was labelled as terrorist.

if african children are responsible for aids, then americans are responsible for their drug consumption. and if unhindered capitalism is the highest form of human activity, why then stop these people from earning a living?

http://financialtimes.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&expire=&urlID=5969963&fb=Y&partnerID=1741

COMMENT & ANALYSIS: A distant world for which Bush cares little
By Jeffrey Sachs
Financial Times; Apr 09, 2003

``_ _ _In recent years, Bolivia made a fateful, perhaps fatal, mistake in implementing a US demand to eradicate coca leaf, which was processed and sold in the US as cocaine by Colombian traffickers. Bolivia complied by reducing coca cultivation other than for traditional uses from more than 33,000 hectares in 1997 to below 8,000 hectares in 2001, according to the United Nations. For about 50,000 peasant farmers and their 200,000 dependants, growing this indigenous crop was simply a means of subsistence in the midst of crushing poverty, not an act of geopolitics.

_ _ _The peasant coca growers mobilised and nearly secured victory for Evo Morales, their leader, in last summer`s elections. The US ambassador in La Paz was especially reckless, intervening in the campaign with a warning to the Bolivians not to vote for Mr Morales, which led to a dramatic surge in his popularity. His party won a fifth of congressional seats and influence over the other parties.

_ _ _He appealed for $150m (£96m) in US emergency aid, when several times that would easily have been justified. But the US refused him even this small sum and simply sent him to the International Monetary Fund for lectures on the marvels of austerity.``

re: Saminasha# 44

First, it is unlikely that the Bush junta will invade these nations, and if it does, Syria will be the more logical target. Iran has a government elected through a popular consensus and elections, which is representative of the Iranians. Jordan, though it is a monarchy, is a popular monarachy even though there is no parliamentary democracy in Jordan. Unlike, Iran and Syria, Jordan has an established diplomatic treaty with Israel and does not pose any threats to Israel. Jordan`s achilles` heel is the Palestinian population that lives there and according to many Israeli pundits, Jordan and not Palestine should be the prefered homeland of the Palestinians. Hence, to facilitate this, the Jordanian monarchy has to be removed as an obstacle to this scheme. Syria, with an appointed head of state and being a limited democracy remains the best option and on top of the totem pole.

Secondly, the regime change in these nations is required to stabilize the region and secure Israeli interests in the region. War is always an option, but the governments might be more easily changed through political engineerings than actual invasion. I am not sure, whether there is an invasion on the cards for these nations, but I am certain that Bush junta would seek a political change in these nations. Remember, the Bush junta is an ideological cabal and being ideologically motivated, they are more attuned to a messianic zeal than to the considerations of realpolitik. Realpolitik is about affecting change without destabilizing the paradigm and ideological wars are zero-sum affairs, whose end result is an ideal, for which any political price is considered as justified.

Will the United States embark on another misadventure? Yes; for two reasons. Historically, nations have resorted to war in order to cover up and distract attention from their domestic problems. Secondly, a perpetual war hysteria, as it exists in the United States, narrows the political debate and invaribly raises the issues of patriotism and nationalism, which makes it very difficult to question an incumbent administration. War hysteria is a very effective means of silencing dissent and through this, governments are able to secure their policies from being challenged.

Hence, I do think that the United States will embark on another misadventure, because the Bush junta will always to try to distract the domestic attention from that fact that it a government nominated by the Supreme Court of the United States and not elected by a popular vote! Domestically, this government is insecure and it has brilliantly used the crisis of September 11, 2001 to create an issue of legitimacy for itself through the continuation of war. Even a glance at the opinion polls proves that its ratings improved, after the 2001 tragedy, when serious questions about its ability/inability were subsituted by issues of patriotism and ``rally around the flag`` rhetoric.

Another point, which needs to be made is this: patriotism in the United States is another name for nationalism and the Bush junta and the Americans will never admit to the charms of nationalism, because it is a word associated with the wars of twentieth century and given the American rhetoric, in the guise of Wilsonian idealism, about making the world a safe place for democracy, the United States will never admit that its interests are as base as were once the interests of European nationalism.

Best wishes, as always

Ciao

dost mittar #46 I am sorry, but I fail to see any absence of sponteneity in the crowds in Iraq. In town after town, you see them. Old men, young boys, even smiling women. The old man with a big smile beating Saddam`s picture with a shoe. The young chap running after Saddam`s statue head in Baghdad beating it with a shoe. People waving to American troops, yelling ``welcome``, ``thank you USA``, ``thank you Bush``.
All these are real my friend. Dont let your preconceived notions fool you. Believe what your eyes can see.

And btw, no one claims nirvana is here. Of course things will be rough. But dont take the AWI path out of this by blaming the US for everything. Here are some governments which in my view deserve to be condemned for their cynical game-playing with the lives of ordinary people: (a) The Turkish government: It does not want Kurd malitia to enter Kirkuk in Iraq and become politically empowered. Ever wonder whether this is because it cares about Kurds, or about the ``sacred``ness of its territory? If anyone seemed to be drooling for the oil in Iraq, it was the Turks who did not send their army into oil-rich Kirkuk only because the US told them to stay out. (And ordinary Turks are find people, and the love us Pakistanis too - but let us not allow personal feelings to hide the truth).
(b) Saddam collected $400 billion in debt for his toothless army and airforce (good only for throwing chemicals on villagers, not for risking its neck in battle), and his obscene palaces and his Bank accounts - guess who lent him this money: the French, the Germans, the Russians. To buy military junk, and for him and his baathists to enrich themselves and live a life of luxury. While blaming the US all the time for the misery of his people. UNICEF supplies were found even inside the palace of his damned son, Uday.
(c) The Saddam regime itself. I have yet to hear one word about the casual lies Sahaf (info minister) was telling about beating the US and compare that to the calm, respectful and factual manner in which people like General Franks have conducted themselves. And yet, Bush is ridiculed, while clowns like Sahaf and Saddam are ignored.

But do you here even one AWI (anti-west ideologue) mention any of this? never. You I think are a more rational person than some others on chowk, and so I am troubling you with these facts. Not that I really care. I just feel sad that so many educated people in pakistan and india refuse to trust their God-given eyes and ears, and trust their blind prejudices instead. There are lines in the Quran about how God will hold people accountable for such behavior, but I wont get into that now.

Re: tahmed32

Here are a couple of reasons for cheering the liberation of Baghdad and how the American troops are treating the newly liberated Iraqis and winning their hearts and minds. These glimpses, were provided by Robert Fisk. You can read the entire article at:

http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=396051

``The Americans may think they have ``liberated`` Baghdad but the tens of thousands of thieves – they came in families and cruised the city in trucks and cars searching for booty – seem to have a different idea of what liberation means.

American control of the city is, at best, tenuous – a fact underlined after several marines were killed last night by a suicide bomber close to the square where a statue of Saddam Hussein was pulled down on Wednesday, in the most staged photo-opportunity since Iwo Jima.

As the occupying power, America is responsible for protecting embassies and UN offices in their area of control but, yesterday, its troops were driving past the German embassy even as looters carted desks and chairs out of the front gate. It is a scandal, a kind of disease, a mass form of kleptomania that American troops are blithely ignoring. At one intersection of the city, I saw US Marine snipers on the rooftops of high-rise building, scanning the streets for possible suicide bombers while a traffic jam of looters – two of them driving stolen double-decker buses crammed with refrigerators – blocked the highway beneath.

Every government ministry in the city has now been denuded of its files, computers, reference books, furnishings and cars. To all this, the Americans have turned a blind eye, indeed stated specifically that they had no intention of preventing the ``liberation`` of this property. One can hardly be moralistic about the spoils of Saddam`s henchmen but how is the government of America`s so-called ``New Iraq`` supposed to operate now that the state`s property has been so comprehensively looted?

And already America`s army of ``liberation`` is beginning to seem an army of occupation. I watched hundreds of Iraqi civilians queuing to cross a motorway bridge at Daura yesterday morning, each man ordered by US soldiers to raise his shirt and lower his trousers – in front of other civilians, including women – to prove they were not suicide bombers.

After a gun battle in the Adamiya area during the morning, an American Marine sniper sitting atop the palace gate wounded three civilians, including a little girl, in a car that failed to halt – then shot and killed a man who had walked on to his balcony to discover the source of the firing. Within minutes, the sniper also shot dead the driver of another car and wounded two more passengers in that vehicle, including a young woman. A crew from Channel 4 Television was present when the killings took place.``

tahmed32, unfortunately your joy maybe be premature. Winning the war was the easy part and the test of American accomplishments will come from how they manage to keep the peace. I hope that you manage to keep the post-war peace in Iraq better than the peace you are currently keeping in Afghanistan. I hope that you do remember Afghanistan and all the promises you made there. Do you? You and your nation, were going to change that nation for the better? Have you and your nation changed it for the better? Please tell me, because I want to wave the American flag too!

Ciao

P.S.: Do you know what mental colonialism is? It is when one starts to believe that what is right is wrong and what is wrong is right and refuses to think for owns ownself.

#46 by dost-mittar on April 11, 2003 9:09am PT

Bang on target.

FerozeK

``.....but I honestly fear that it creates a flawed precedent. It creates and legitimizes the idea of extra-territorality, unilateralism, and it places the world in an untenable situation of chosing between extremes, with no middle ground for a compromise. This war and the precedent it creates, removes the specter of accountability in international relations and subsitutes it with the interpretations of the powerful and the mighty. ``

You know what ..you`re absolutely right. Except, you should have said this about the Bombing of Yugoslavia. Everything you said above was true for Yugoslavia.

Where were the protests then? Because a Democrat President was in power?

There was no UN Resolution. Kosovo is now and was an integral part of Yugoslavia.

There were 60 days, mind you 60 days of bombing. No one protested!!

Why?

Where was international precedent? Where was the United Nations? France and Germany fully supported the war under NATO not under the UN.

Why was there no outrage? Is Saddam better then Milo? Hell no.

But a Democrat president went to war and all the liberals lined up to support him.

A Republican does the same and the liberals line up to call him a war monger.