This Beloved Arab Colony

Urstruly#204:
Rsridhar no doubt has a religious explanation. Here is a non-religious one:
I have read an Indologist (can`t remember the author) claiming that Gita was, in fact, written after Buddha. This makes sense to me as there is no mention of Krishna in any of the numerous Buddhist jataka tales which revolve around Hindu gods and godesses. The rise of Buddhism in India had weakened considerably the influence of the caste system. Mahabharat was written probably around the same time that the revival of Hinduism was taking place after its decline during the period of Buddhist ascendancy. The glorification of the caste system, e.g., the famous Eklavya episode, was probably part of the process of reestablishing the caste hierarchy.
But nothing in Hinduism (assuming that such an animal exists) is that simple. Mahabharat seems to extol Kshatriyas much more than Brahmins who generally play a supportive role in that epic. And Krishna himself was actually from a much lower caste, the Yadvas or dhood-wallahs and yet is probably one of the most reverred incarnation of God in the Hindu religion.
....digression from another board. Do people in gujranwals speak the same language as people from Pindi (from your conversation between the two cyclists)?

Syed_The_Air_Head #186

Hahhhaa ! What a hoot ! You have again shown your ignorance and bitter malice towards
other systems of thought. You have shown your ignorance of hindu traditions by mixing together Manusmriti and the Vedas (two completely different entities written far apart in time).

The Vedas are still considered important, Manusmriti only by a retarded few. Madhu Kishwar, a well known feminist, has in fact shown that Manusmriti came much into prominence only after the arrival of the British, as a ``definitive`` book of law. Why? Because the British wanted to have ``ONE BOOK`` to derive systems of laws and didn`t bother to work with other local traditions.

Texts from your own traditions are full of violence towards non-muslims. There are injunctions to kill kafirs, to assault jews, to treat christians and jews with suspicion and hatred. Mohammed personally participated in genocide of the Quraishi jews; this included the murder of women and children. Few people realize that Arabia had large jewish and Christian minorities which were systematically exterminated through forced conversion and violence soon after Mohammed.

Slave-taking and slavery was an aspect of Muslim society for a thousand years and as other more mature commentators have noted, ended only recently in Arabia. Is slavery superior to casteism??? Who are you kidding??? Do you think we are as stupid as your circle of friends?

Why stop there? Take a look at Old testament. King David boasts of the thousands he killed; he is a lustful and tyrranical king in every way. There are many, many incidents of violence and revenge taking throughout the texts.

The issue is how reasonable people view these texts today. How are they interpreted?? Ask a jew if he considers King David`s behavior a norm for jews. Ask a hindu if he views the Manusmriti as correctly defining social rules today. I publically challenge you to find ONE SUCH PERSON who defends either of these behaviors or rules.

So we are left with nuts such as yourself who have crazy and magical beliefs about your own traditions. Who advertise their racial descent from ``superior`` person !! Who seriously believe that your tradition is superior to others, and that various behaviors of a small-time arabian trader from 1400 years ago are eternal and must be followed in every detail. Sounds more like a mental disease than a religous belief to me.


But self-knowledge is difficult for the truly deluded. How can one force a person to see if they insist on keeping their eyes tightly shut?

Rsridhar

Is Gita also irrelevant to Hindus in the present day and age as per your thesis on Smiritis and Vedas etc.? Here is what Gita has to say on Casteism:

The four divisions of human order were created by me according to difference in quality, activities and aptitude, although the creator of this, know me as the non-doer being immutable--- Bhagavad Gita 4:13

These are the words of Lord Krishna acting on behalf of Divinity, the Bhagwan. I think Caste system is not an invention of Mannu or other scholars of later time. As evident from this quote from Gita it is mandated by Divine order; people like Mannu and others have only interpretted the message for its application. Please explain.

rsrisdhar: it is true that religious tracts are interpreted per the prevailing customs. however, your saying that this common sense application of religious books has been true for hindu societies only and not for muslim is in my view incorrect: after all, the tracts from the vedas posted by hon syed (and i dont mean to say i in any way support his denigration of hinduism) relate explicitly to casteism and indeed prescribes some vicious punishments for anyone getting too uppity for his caste. you quote from one enlightened hindu thinker (vivekananda) but ignore the fact that casteism has been a defining aspect of hindu culture for millenia, and continues to this day.

of course as society progresses, it leaves behind the cruder aspects that were considered sacred law in the past. i am sure that over time hindus too will leave casteism behind. but lets not pretend it does not exist.

and also, rest assured that muslim societies are not as hidebound in tradition either. thus, slavery was considered part of the holy law in most of the middle east until the mid-nineteenth century. slavery was considered legal in saudi arabia till 1962. And yet, today even the most idiotic mullah from NWFP or the most braindead wahabi in saudi arabia does not consider slavery to be required by God.

Tipu:
I am not an idolator but a genuine Kafir. I believe in neither prophets nor avtars.

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re:#186 by Honorable_Syed
I do not want to wake you up from your ``day dream`` but quoting Vedas, Manusmritis will not do.
Vedas belong to the past. They do not reflect the reality on ground even at the time they were practised and certainly not today. Vedas are Shrutis, and are considered divine revelations to Sages. Because they were so difficult to follow, many commentaries called Vedantas including Upannishads, Puranas were promulgated. Shrutis never claim to be a Code of Law. A King of that period never quoted Vedas to punish anyone. He went by the prevailing customs and code of conduct and these were called Smritis. But even Smritis were just Guides. King would carefully consider the prevailing Smriti and the culture and practices of the population before deciding how to punish a wrong-doer.
And, as for as Smritis are concerned, these were given from time to time to guide people and belong to a certain age and period. There are a number of Smritis. Url:
http://www.dlshq.org/religions/smritis.htm

``There are eighteen main Smritis or Dharma Sastras. The most important are those of Manu, Yajnavalkya and Parasara. The other fifteen are those of Vishnu, Daksha, Samvarta, Vyasa, Harita, Satatapa, Vasishtha, Yama, Apastamba, Gautama, Devala, Sankha-Likhita, Usana, Atri and Saunaka.

The laws of Manu are intended for the Satya Yuga; those of Yajnavalkya are for the Treta Yuga; those of Sankha and Likhita are for the Dvapara Yuga; and those of Parasara are for the Kali Yuga.``
In the same article written by swami Sivananda (a renouned Yogi), he goes on to say:

``It is not possible to follow some of the laws of Manu at the present time. We can follow their spirit and not the letter. Society is advancing. When it advances, it outgrows certain laws which were valid and helpful at a particular stage of its growth. Many new things which were not thought out by the old law-givers have come into existence now. It is no use insisting people to follow now those old laws which have become obsolete.``

If you realise that Hinduism is a very ancient religion, then you would appreciate what it means to say that Manusmritis belong to Satya Yuga, which happened many thousand years ago. Hindus themselves have given a decent burial to these archaic laws.

Hindu dharma goes beyond the written laws when it insists:

``He who is endowed with a pure heart through protracted Tapas, Japa, Kirtan, meditation and service of Guru and who has a very clear conscience, can be guided by the inner voice in matters of Dharma or duty or moral action. The inner voice that proceeds from a clean heart filled with Sattva is, indeed, the voice of God or Soul or Antaryamin or Inner Ruler. This voice is more than Smriti. It is Smriti of Smritis. Purify your heart and train yourself to hear this inner voice. Keep your ear in tune with the ‘voice’.`` (same Url as above).

As i said, the code of ethics called Smritis have been continuously changing with changing times: http://www.sriramakrishnamath.org/magazine/vk/2002/12-3-7.asp

``Since Smritis or Dharmasâstras are directly concerned with customs, conventions, laws, rights, duties, responsibilities and obligations of human life at all levels, a Smritikâra has to be some kind of a social reformer as well. Spiritual teachers like Sri Krishna, Sri Râma, Buddha, Shankara and Swami Vivekananda have all been doing what Manu, Yâjnavalkya and others did--re-adjusting the Hindu way of life to the basic tenets of Vedic (Shrauta) culture by re-interpreting the fundamental principles of the Vedic scheme of life according to the demands and social compulsions of changing times.``

Swami Vivekananda was a spiritual giant of 20th century. He brought Hinduism to the shores of USA but more importantly, he pointed out the morass to which many of hinduism`s outdated laws had landed this religion into.
In the Url
http://www.sriramakrishnamath.org/magazine/vk/2002/12-3-7.asp
Excerpts:

``Swami Vivekananda`s contributions to the fields of education, social reform, modernization of traditional religious ideas and belief-systems of Hindu society, his concept of internal Yoga and the harmonious synthesis of the occidental and oriental values of life, his concern for India`s emergence as a prosperous modern state without losing its spiritual culture make him a Smritikâra of our times.``


``...he (Swami Vivekananda) was aware of the weaknesses of Hindu society, its hypocrisies, and social injustices, such as neglect of the womenfolk, exploitation of the masses, system of social privileges, casteism, untouchability, etc. He wrote:
`You always criticize the women, but say, what have you done for their upliftment? Writing down Smriti etc., and binding them by hard rules, the men have turned the women into mere manufacturing machines! They have all the time been trained in helplessness, servile dependence on others, and so they are good only to weep their eyes out at the slightest approach of a mishap or danger.` ``

Read the rousing speeches he gave and his complete dismissal of the old Laws of Manu and others. These belonged to a different age when people had to be bound by Spriritual Laws as scientific progress had not arrived at that time. Brahmins became a kind of Spiritual Godhead, putting fear of Divine Retribution into everyone else and creating some kind of a social order. That is why you will find references to Brahmanas (brahmins) in highest terms. These were different from modern day brahmins who are brahmins only by name. Brahmins of the yore were true spiritual adherents, people who lived by the name of God. Their`s was a most difficult task. Punishment for deviation from spiritual path was cruel. Brahmins being at the top of the spiritual order were expected to set an eg.
Society confirmed to the laws of the time and all the laws that appear so injust today are a product of a different era and mindset. Can you blame the British for believing they were born to rule because they were white! And the white men of South Africa had apartheid that would shame even India`s caste system. All these were product of an era and mindset and were dismantled with society`s progress even as India is busy dismantling evil effects of Caste system today.
You wanted to know if there is anything resembling the caste discrimination in Islam. It is for you to decide. Non-muslims cannot decide what is right and wrong for muslims. I can however tell you that there is something terribly wrong with the way Islam is being practised today. To most non-muslims, some of the things that you practise look archaic. You still do not seem to allow freedom to women. In NWFP, all posters of models are being torn. Soon, Shariat will be introduced. Harsh laws that do not belong to this day and age are being followed in Saudi Arabia, the center of Islam. And, what about the `suicide bombings and suicide killings` all in the name of religion? What kind of religion would continue to justify and tolerate this?
So, while Indian society has been modifying its ``Smritis`` to the present context (it has a vibrant democracy and rule of law laid down in the Constitution, which over-rides any Smritis or rules of the past), Islam is trapped in a time-warp. It is for muslims to discuss how this can be changed.
Sridhar

Godot 149
Jay, when was the last time you read an article in a prestigious Indian newspaper where a Muslim lashes out at Indian policy towards Pakistan as you did in Dawn?

India was in a Simla stupor for 25 years, and woke up to improve relations with pakistan by a trip to lahore. Then came the kargill invasion, it was a military disaster, highest casuality in indo-pak wars, the 303s and lathis were no match for the AK 47s of the jihadis.
There was no stand off weapons, no precision guided systems, aircrafts were shot down.
Now there is apolicy of limited war, AWACS are coming, aerial refueling is coming, a lot of gigh tech weapons. The pathetic nature of the indian forces at kargill can be summarised by the fact that they did not have artilary locating radars. All these are changing, there is going to be pak policy.

You ask why no one criticises the past policy, well that was stupid policy, and one cannot write a treatice on stupidity. Well about the new policy, what can any one say, `` wake up gandi, pakis are pi$$ing on your cap``.

UNDERSTANDING PAKISTANIS,

I am amazed by the posts by romair and the venerable hamidm and all other pakistanis about the sayed issue, especially about their knowledge about their religion, the historical aspects of it. I wonder where they studied all this, must be part of the k for kafir curriculum.
Compared to this the hindians are ignorant of their religion. It is thiss therough understanding of the islamic nuances that prevents any pakistani from saying that jihad is not killing of kafirs, simply because that would be blasphemous with mobkilling if the courts fail.
In a way this also confirms my belief that jihad is central to the pak minds, afghanistan, kashmir you name it, the pak society will have to find an outlet for the jihadic instincts.

re: syed

``There are plenty of examples, but this should suffice, this camel herder was the greatest man on earth, accepted by both kafirs and muslims alike. ``

...then why has the religion he created most associated with people flying planes into buildings?...why are muslim countries mercy to the daisycutters of kafirs?...

Muhammad`s succession:
Could it be that though the Prophet wanted to nominate Ali to be his successor, he couldn`t because of a common weakness of older husbands with young wives whom they adore? If the Arab women were anything like their contemporary desi counterparts, Ayesha would have definitely preferred her father to the son-in-law of her dead sauten. As is well known, the Prophet had a soft spot for Ayesha.

Studebaker,why are you so fixated on Harry Potter?Anyway,since you are,go read the new book,it`ll keep you out of these posts on chowk and in fantasy land.If you are agreeing with Syed,well,I`m not surprised you felt out of place in India.People who think like him shouldn`t be in India,they make things harder for all Indians who want to live in peace.
Heaven knows where he`s getting all his information about Hinduism from.It`s always gratifying to see our Paki neighbours all well read up on Hinduism,now if I could find out which Hindu(written by the Shankaracharya of Puri,no doubt) site he`s getting his convictions from,it might begin to make more sense.Be descended from whoever you want,it`s not like us kaffirs care:)