This Beloved Arab Colony

You don`t like the ``narrower sects of Islam.`` Good enough. But you are also bothered by the ``Islamic world`s Europemaniacs(sic).`` Actually they TOO are a sect. And equally narrow. So what`s all the fuss about? This certainly didn`t require a written monolgue.

in reply to dost-mittar 71 : I AM one and the same person, Asif Naqshbandi. In arts and literature I can think what I like (these are mubah) whereas in the issues of Islam I do taqlid of the great Imams of the Ahlus Sunnah!

Faith is a matter of the heart not the head...
The love of the Ahlul Bayt (Sayyids) is a sign of Iman...it is a non-physical entity if you will. It is in the heart. It is a blessing from Allah.

***

No human is unidimensional dost sahib...

naqshbandi #76 ``In terms of worshipping God all Muslims are equal... ``

You are the expert on worshipping other men...what would you know about worshipping God.

can i just add that the morrocan brother used that saying as a metaphor to imply the immense respect and status which a sayyid/ah holds...

***

If a person has the correct aqida and is a sayyid...I am honoured to carry that person`s shoes...:-) Imam Malik was whipped by the Abbasi caliph; he said that everytime i was hit by the whip i prayed to Allah to forgive the man as he was a descendent of the Prophet alayhisalam thru hazrat Abbas...

:-)

#79 by malik99 on June 20, 2003 10:39am PT
While I am no fan of Ataturk - I believe it is time for Pakistan to make some revolutionary decisions modeled on Ataturk`s philosophy:

1- Culture. Pakistan needs to break itself from ``south asian`` blok and look towards west (I don`t mean to say europe specifically). We need to extricate ourselves from the slavish bounds of Indian traditions which keep generations under the yoke of caste system, kills their unborn daughters and the other such traditions which are alien to us. We need to rid our society of all hindu influences like dowery, meaningless traditions, the ugliness of caste system (jut, chohan, rajput etc). Once we have freed ourselves of these yokes, we will find that we belong more in the middle eastern block than in the ``south asian`` block. More than 50 years of separation from India has created a distinct culture and traditions which is native to Pakistan. Just visit any indian restuarant in USA and you will notice that even our food has evolved distinctly over the years. Our clothing has evolved differently. We walk and talk differently. Our demeanor has changed. For those who say that we have been indians for thousands of years, I say to them - The History Does Not Stop. It continues. Traditions are built and broken. Thousands of years from now, the world would look at Pakistan as middle eastern country in its values, its traditions, its music, and in its food.

2- Language. A language commission, similar to the one that Ataturk created in the 1920s should be set up in Pakistan. The purpose of the commission would be to bring our language more in tune with persian, central asian and arabic. After 50 years of separation, North and South Korea`s younger generation cannot understand each other`s language. North has developed more russian influence. Whereas South has more japanese influence. Once we have made our language distinct from the hindi, our generations will be freed from the yoke of hindi films with white-wanna-be actors and actresses who serve as an opium for the tired, hungry and homeless masses.
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You guys are trying very hard to get away from your Indianness(At least we don`t have to try anything...e.g; to create stories to become syed..we are genuine)
And I agree with you that you have been successful. We don`t look as similar now as we used to...
The sooner this differnce between pakis and indians becomes obvious..the better for us.

I have seen that in American and Australian socities...we two are mistaken to be one because of our similarities..I would say ..that it becomes very shameful for us Indians to be mistaken for a pakistani...as it does happen now and then...

But westerners do know very well now.. this difference..Indians give an overall impression of being smart and educated and thier women and kids have a modern outlook are brighter academically...there is a clear cut difference...

KEEP IT UP....and endeavor more and more to be Arabic...it is definitely good for us Indians if you do so

#78 by Honorable_Syed on June 20, 2003 10:39am PT
`` we share the same culture, we were all hindus in the past, etc...``
------

No we DON`T share the same past and neither do we want you to.
You all were so fascinated by India that you left your homeland `arabia` and came to India in hordes and hordes...you all look arabic are more Arabic in every aspect fo your life.

And the sooner WE realise it..the better

Maybe...now VHP also agrees with you that you all are arabic.....maybe it is this very realisation by VHP and other hindu organisations that insist upon sending the foreigners back to thier homeland
Maybe they are right after all

Sameerjb # 84

WE have discussed the issue of number of Syeds in sub-continent and in the world using the science of mathematical induction and statistical probability in the past. Here is what I wrote:

I have been following your discussion about the present number of Syeds in the world. Although your assertions are assumptive in nature yet the logic that you follow is quite mind boggling. As a matter of fact your logic defies the basic principles of the Mathematical Induction. The Mathematical Induction is a branch of Mathematics that deals in the study of mathematical series of numbers e.g the series 2,4,6,8,….is a series of even numbers whereas 1,3,5,7….. is a series of odd numbers. Some series are simple while others are complex where each successive number in a series is obtained by a complex formula. The principles of Mathematical Induction enable us to device a formula through which an nth number in a series can be found. I think we can estimate the number of individuals in a particular generation by the following series:

1, (3X1), (3X3), (3X9), (3X27), (3X81),………….

It is quite obvious that any number of this series can be obtained by multiplying a previous number by 3. The following assumptions were made while setting up this series:

1. The first number in the series i.e. 1 is one son of Hazrat Zain-ul-Abidin. For the sake of argument we are assuming that he had only one son.

2. It is assumed that each male individual of the family bears 3 male offspring. Hence the second generation consists of 3 males (i.e represented by number 3 which is second link in the series). Each male from the 2nd generation bears three male offspring again. So the third generation consists of 9 male individuals and so on and so forth.

3. Let us assume that there are five generations in a century. It means that there are 70 generations in 1400 years.

Based on these assumptions the 70th entry in this series will represent approximately the present number of male Syeds. A 12-grader can easily setup a formula by analyzing the above series. My mathematics is very rusty since I haven’t used Mathematical Induction for a while. But with a little hard work one can easily find the 70th number in this series; and believe me it is a very large number. Now assume that at a particular point in time three generations co-exist, which is a reasonable assumption, the number reaches in millions. So far we have not considered the female members of the Syed family.

We have also not assumed other variations. For example, Awans trace back their origin to Hazrat Ali claiming that they are the offspring of a slave, not Hazrat Fatima. I know that Awans do not claim to be Syeds but that was just an example. There are other Syeds who trace their origins back to Ehl-e-bait with such relationships. Unfortunately, I can not recall a particular family at this moment.

So the number of Syeds in sub-continent is thus justified by this logic. What do you think?

#84 by sameerJB on June 20, 2003 11:41am PT

Well said.

In resp to sameer:
``Syeds come in all colors, shape and sizes? How comes they look so Indian when African slaves brought to India about the same time still look African - Makranis. Najeeb ul Tarfain central Asians look central Asian even the descendants of left over Greek soldiers from Alexander have periodic recurrence of Greek feaures and curly hair. ``
If you know anything about the syeds in indo-pak you would not have said this.
Do you know that there are many syeds in india who are ethiopian, this is an uncontested historical fact. The possible reason for why many syeds look ``indian`` are plenty. First many syeds married indian women, secondly arabs don`t look caucasian, they also have dark skin like most indians.


`` Why do so many Syeds are white, look central Asian rather tha Arab? Syed, Saeed and Sahih have the same root, meaning right path followers. This was the title in central Asia for mullahs and sufis just as Meerza was the ttle for aristocrats associated with the courts. In India, similarly we have Khan, Chaudhries, Mian etc. Since these mullahs did not end up in Arabia or Africa, Syed title is not used. Jordan is Hashmiite Kingdom, not a Sadat Kingdon, though they are most likely descendants of Muhammad than any other desi.
``
What are you smoking! If you know anything about arabs and their history, you would not have embarrassed yourself, arabs also come in all shapes, sizes and colors, because we muslims married africans, romans, indians, etc... Hence you will find the mediterrannean arabs (i.e. Syrians, lebanese, etc..) look more caucasian, Sudanese, and to some extent egyptians look more african. Learn your own history, learn about the Syed dynasty, the Muslim dynasty of the bijapur, they were also direct descendants of rasool e kareem Muhammad saws. Read about the history of the gardezi and qureishi syeds, read about the history of the syeds of bilgram, there is plenty more. And insha`Allah i will post a more detailed explanantion soon.
And concerning your point of the syeds outnumbering the other sheikhs, i would like you to give me some sort of proof or evidence and not throw red herrings.
During the ummayyah dynasty, the syeds (both shia and sunni) were oppressed, and hence there was a mass exodus from the hejaz, hence many migrated to the khorasan, north africa, etc.. And most Indo-Pak syeds either came through khorasan or the sufi Syeds came through baghdad (many of these are descendants of ghause-azam Abdul Qadeer Shah Gilani)

``every Syed is as much a descendant of Abu Jehl `` -- sameerjb --

what an astute observation! -- the subcontinental claim does have a `halo` of `hazrat` -- Abu Jehl

there goes the geneaology -- down the drain of factuality -- of the Muslim equivalent of Dravidian Brahmins :-)

1) Muhammad`s closest friends, Abu Bakr, Omar, Usman and Ali, all had more children than his children. Why then Syed way outnumber Siddiquis, Farooqis, Usmanis and Alvis?

2) Unless a miracle is invoked or ``blood through lineage`` is proven to have special meaning, every Syed is as much a descendant of Abu Jehl and Abu Lahab, Muhammad`s uncles who shared more common blood with him than any of the present day - down 60-70 generations.

3) Syeds come in all colors, shape and sizes? How comes they look so Indian when African slaves brought to India about the same time still look African - Makranis. Najeeb ul Tarfain central Asians look central Asian even the descendants of left over Greek soldiers from Alexander have periodic recurrence of Greek feaures and curly hair.

4) Why do so many Syeds are white, look central Asian rather tha Arab? Syed, Saeed and Sahih have the same root, meaning right path followers. This was the title in central Asia for mullahs and sufis just as Meerza was the ttle for aristocrats associated with the courts. In India, similarly we have Khan, Chaudhries, Mian etc. Since these mullahs did not end up in Arabia or Africa, Syed title is not used. Jordan is Hashmiite Kingdom, not a Sadat Kingdon, though they are most likely descendants of Muhammad than any other desi.

It was the magic of Khyber pass when central Asian mullahs and Sufis moved their shops to subcontinent and along the way of climbing down the Hindu Kush, put on green turban and black or white robes and became holy because they know in India lineage matters to keep the castes separate. While in Indus valley region, only their descendants claimed to be Syeds, in UP/ Bihar every tom dick and harry adopted this title just as many villagers in Panjab become chaudhry once moved to cities. All it takes is cheating by by one in making the family tree and rest is history.

re: #24 by jay on June 19, 2003 6:33am PT

++
I thought I have heard it all from the pakis why their country is going on the camel path to oblivion.
++

Please re-read my post. I am not saying that Pakistan is going into oblivion. As a result of U-turn on Taliban after 9/11 and nuclear testing in 1998, Pakistan`s international profile and credit rating have improved considerably in the last 5 years. The same Musharraf who was cold-shouldered by Clinton in 1999 is now considered a respectible ally against terror by the White House. Pakistan`s spectacular stock market and marcoeconomic recovery in the last 2 years don`t suggest any signs of oblivion and recession.

The only problem with MMA rule is that it will deny economic opportunities to the people of NWFP and Baluchistan. Despite Shariah and MMA, Americans will continue to support Musharraf. Domestic & foreign investment will also increase in Punjab and Sindh. But the Pashtuns and Pakhtuns will lag behind in economic recovery. Moreover, the MMA`s hooliganism will alienate it from Punjabis, Sindhis and Urdu-speaking community.

++
It has been blamed on the sudid for wahabism, for the americans for afghanistan, for the sheer genious of zia, due to feudals. Now this, NWFP has intrudced sheria because of kashmiris.
++

Shariah and Kashmir are not related, but MMA and Kashmir are. Hizbul Mujahideen is the militant wing of Jamaat-e-Islami which is the second biggest component of MMA. Syed Ali Shah Geelani of APHC is a member of Jamaat-e-Islami. Moreover, Jaish-e-Muhammad and Lashkar-e-Tayyaba recruits were graduates from madrassahs operated by Maulana Fazlur Rehman`s JUI. Settlement of Kashmir issue will deprive MMA of most of its donations and recruitment.

++
This is the classic case of how what is taught at a youg age, the doctrine of hatred cannot be cleansed by education of any kind. Education only provides new avnues for the hatred to ooze out. pathetic.
++

Why don`t you follow your own advice first and educate yourself about Pakistan in general and Zia-Saudi-CIA-ISI-Mullah nexus in particular?

Jay,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3004930.stm

Girl weds dog to break `evil spell`

A nine-year-old tribal girl in eastern India has married a stray dog as part of a ritual to ward off an ``evil spell`` on her, Indian newspapers have reported.

The girl, Karnamoni Handsa, had to be married quickly because she had a tooth rooted to her upper gum, which is considered a bad omen by her Santhal tribe in the remote village of Khanyhan, about 60 kilometres (37 miles) from Calcutta.

``Members of the village jury asked us to get her married to a dog or to face the bad omen,`` the girl`s father was quoted as saying by the AFP news agency.

The tribe elders said the marriage would not affect the girl`s life, and that she would be free to marry again later and did not need to divorce the dog

``It will not spoil her future. We will marry her off to eligible bachelor when she grows up,`` the girl`s mother told AFP.

`No regret`

The wedding - which took place on 11 June - was attended by more than 100 guests, who danced to the beating of drums and drank home-made liquor.

``I have no regret in marrying the dog Bacchan. I am fond of the dog who moves around our locality,`` the girl told the AFP.

``Bacchan is a stray dog who survives on left-overs. I will take care of the dog,`` she added.

Indian newspapers reported that local police officials had ordered an inquiry into the incident.

The Santhals - most of whom are sharecroppers - are a large tribe living in the states of West Bengal and neighbouring Bihar and Jharkhand.
_________________________

Every culture and religion have these problems. Look inside your own culture you are not spared from it either. Get over Pakistan and its problems and mind your own f#$%^&* business. Talk about pointing fingers!

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While I am no fan of Ataturk - I believe it is time for Pakistan to make some revolutionary decisions modeled on Ataturk`s philosophy:

1- Culture. Pakistan needs to break itself from ``south asian`` blok and look towards west (I don`t mean to say europe specifically). We need to extricate ourselves from the slavish bounds of Indian traditions which keep generations under the yoke of caste system, kills their unborn daughters and the other such traditions which are alien to us. We need to rid our society of all hindu influences like dowery, meaningless traditions, the ugliness of caste system (jut, chohan, rajput etc). Once we have freed ourselves of these yokes, we will find that we belong more in the middle eastern block than in the ``south asian`` block. More than 50 years of separation from India has created a distinct culture and traditions which is native to Pakistan. Just visit any indian restuarant in USA and you will notice that even our food has evolved distinctly over the years. Our clothing has evolved differently. We walk and talk differently. Our demeanor has changed. For those who say that we have been indians for thousands of years, I say to them - The History Does Not Stop. It continues. Traditions are built and broken. Thousands of years from now, the world would look at Pakistan as middle eastern country in its values, its traditions, its music, and in its food.

2- Language. A language commission, similar to the one that Ataturk created in the 1920s should be set up in Pakistan. The purpose of the commission would be to bring our language more in tune with persian, central asian and arabic. After 50 years of separation, North and South Korea`s younger generation cannot understand each other`s language. North has developed more russian influence. Whereas South has more japanese influence. Once we have made our language distinct from the hindi, our generations will be freed from the yoke of hindi films with white-wanna-be actors and actresses who serve as an opium for the tired, hungry and homeless masses.

#74 pakfin....i would just like to add that its not just the prefix `syed` ....but an assorted range of titles in our country atleast that often restrain the educational or intellectual growth.....of generations.....``chaudhry``.....``sardar``......``mian``...and the list goes on :)