This Beloved Arab Colony

ali87#287
``Without even going into the details of the sura and the whom it refered to and at what point..``
For those of us who want to learn, could you please give some details about the context? And do you believe that verses such as these have become problematic and should not be recited without linking them with the context in which they were revealed?

#ali87

Why do we suddenly need to discuss the details of the sura? Did you bother to do that with the ``hindu`` texts you quoted (neither Ramayana nor Mahabharata are considered revelatory texts and are not treated as such by most hindus)?

Of course not. You feel comfortable lecturing me about texts associated with the hindu tradition but when I bring up hate-filled passages from your own tradition, you want to discuss something else !! Why is that? Doesnt the Koran advocate violence against idolators? Maybe we need a new name for you: Hypocrite Ali !

I dont know where you get your nonsensical numbers about hindus, christians etc. Let me ask you a simple question: Afghanistan and N-W India (Pakistan today) were overhwhelming hindu and buddhist for 1000-1500 years BEFORE the arrival of Islam. Name a SINGLE hindu or buddhist major temple or religous structure that survivies there today. ONE ! What is the percentage of hindus and buddhists in Afghanistan and Pakistan today?

Give me the factual answers. Not one-sided bull* about the millions of hindus and christians who were kindly allowed to live within their dhimmi caste within islamic rule.

#249 by pmishra2 on June 27, 2003 8:55am PT

Without even going into the details of the sura and the whom it refered to and at what point I will ask you a simple question since you are simple minded. If such was the case then why is it that the christians, Hindus, Jews found safety under Muslim rule? WAs it at anytime considered that those Muslim rulers were going agains the Quran letting the non-muslims live and in such great numbers. Remeber nearly 1 billion hindus are still alive!! So are millons of christians and arab Jews.
I know yours is a simple mind but do make the effort.

Note and remember that your qoute ``How is this any different from the cr*p found in ManuSmriti? ``
also try to relate to the the fact that following this ``whatever you call it`` the ``bits of literature from hinduism`s 3000 year-old tradition`` aka Mahabarat recalls the story of eklavya Dronacharya refuses to teach archery to Eklavya, because he was not a Kshatriya by birth. When Eklavya, treating Drona as his notional guru, learns archery on his own, Drona makes him cut his right thumb as gurudakshina (gift for the teacher) so that he may not become a better archer than his favorite Kshatriya student Arjuna!

Now these were the righteous I belive.. (I was told by some one on this board)

In Ramayana, Ram kills Shambuka simply because he was performing tapasya which he was not supposed to do as he was a Shudra by birth.

Now your simple mind does not accept the fact that whether or not the various ``Obscure texts`` say or not but for thousands of years this is what the hindus have been folowing.

Do a study of both the issues and tell me which would prefer? It should not be too difficult even for a simple mind like yours.

#250 I_am_so_proud_to_be_a_Syed

No surprises in your response. You feel your traditions are special and can only be approached in a special way. But anytime you like you can pick up bits and pieces of ``hindu`` tradition (which is at least 3000 years old) and give us some nonsensical reading of it.

It is not really worth responding any further to your one sided and self-serving comments.
It is as though a thief were giving a long lecture on the importance of honesty to others !!

You will NEVER acknowledge that islam legitimizes violence against non-muslims, considers jews and christians as belonging to a lower ``caste`` (dhimmi rules), openly supports violence against polytheists (hindus and buddhists). When the Bamiyan Buddhas were destroyed, an islamic ``scholar`` from Al Alzhar held that the destruction was legitimate, just as an example.

Throughout NOrth India, Pakistan and Afghanistan not a single historic hindu or buddhist shrine survives (there are some exceptions in protected parts of Rajasthan and Uttarkashi). NOT ONE !!! All this in an area where hindus and buddhists have lived for more than 1500 years BEFORE Islam arrived !!! Astonishing isn;t it ! A culture genocide of the highest order.

I am well aware of Ambedkar and the proud struggle of the dalit people. I acknowledge that their struggles have a lot to do with indian traditions of varna and jati. And that all modern indians, hindu or not, must reject those negative traditions.

But you acknowledge nothing negative in your tradition!! Even though it calls for violence against non-muslims, its documented record of systematic erasure of older cultures and cultural genocide as clearly recorded in history.

Is there is a better example of hypocrisy and one-sided discussion ?? I think not.

pmishra and the rest of the obsessed hindus:
The difference between the texts you quoted from the Quran and the text quoted from the vedas is the fact that text from the Quran can be logically and rationally explained. Anyone with the basic knowledge of English literature will know what is meant by ``context``. If you look up any dictionary it will give the definition along these lines:
1. The part of a text or statement that surrounds a particular word or passage and determines its meaning.
2. The circumstances in which an event occurs; a setting.
Now, can all the verses you quoted be rationally explained? the answer is yes.
Now, on the flip side the text found in hindu scruptures can not be explained logically and rationally, or I and most people have not heard or read the logical and rational justification for the racist overtones found a plenty in hindu scriptures, until you don`t give us an explanation all your arguments will fall on deaf ears. Do you realize that during the world racism conference in durban, there was a big contingent of dalits who werent vacationing in S. Africa, which begs the question which fantasy world you are living in. Casteism is a big problem for indian hindu society, and its upto the indian hindus to confront this social evil, and these hindu scriptures which preach such hatred should be burnt, as were burnt by Ambedkar ( a shudra who wrote the indian constitution).

#247 ali87

You are welcome to your one-sided thinking. It is sad but amusing that people feel free to pick up bits of literature from hinduism`s 3000 year-old tradition and make all kinds of claims about it. When we turn around and refer to contents of the Koran, we are told that ``we must first make a study of it``.

Why? Why should we treat this text differently? Here is only a small part of the murderous advice found within it.

Sura 9:5 says, ``Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every strategem of war.`` Sura 5:33 records what is done to infidels who resist Islam: ``Their punishment is...execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from the opposite sides, or exile from the land.``

Why is Islam the only tradition in which conversion is punishable by DEATH !!

How is this any different from the cr*p found in ManuSmriti?

rajanjua #246 welcome back to the board. as always, it is good to read your down to earth and informative posts.

#244 by pmishra2 on June 26, 2003 8:52am PT
I recall you as a jerk and you continue to be one at least on this board. I find it amusing that you put 2 and 2 together and call it 22 and consider it mathematics.
When you are ready to learn about Quran take a study to satisy yourself. If you repeat a thosand times your dirvel it will not make people belive you. Only people with limited brains like you are influenced by such propaganda and then belive that they can argue with propaganda.

re: 187

``The infighting problems started afte Ali became Caliph. By that time, Abu-Bakr, Umar and Usman were no longer alive.``

the infighting started with prophet`s death - his followers didn`t even bury him promptly as required by custom because they were too busy fighting over who would be the next leader. all of banu hashim (which would be the clan of the prophet) did not accept abu bakar`s appointment for the first six months or so. only after the death of fatima (prophet`s daughter) did they agree on a truce with abu bakar (fatima did not accept the arrangement of abu bakar and omar as long as she lived and no one in the banu hashim dared to offend her) - abu bakar`s elected democratically? - that`s a new one. and umar was not elected either. usman was elected by a shura which comprised of five people and all five were selected by umar.

the first civil war started with the murder of usman - the details are so gruesome that it will depress the hell out of any believer or a non-believer for that matter - amongst those accused of his murder are muhammad b. abi bakr (son of abu bakar). the civil war that started with usman`s murder raged on until the truce at siffin. the first major battle came right after the death of usman. in that battle ali`s forces were fighting the army led by al-zubayr b. al-awam and tallah b. ubaydallah (two very influential companions of the prophet) - ayesha`s presence on the side of al-zubayr and tallah was merely symbolic. both al-zubayr and tallah were killed in that battle.

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#243 ali87

It is deeply amusing that you should choose to lecture rsridhar. I recall you as a bigot who once proclaimed islam to be a ``perfect religion`` and dismissed an analysis column from Dawn as ``RSS propaganda``. So it is deeply amusing to see your self-righteous bhashan..

Fundamentally, here we are talking about understanding different historical traditions and their impact on societies. Varna and jati are a core historical tradition in India and have impact on indian society. Thinking hindus overwhleming reject the negative aspects of varna and jati thinking, while retaining the diverse identities it brings to the table.

Islam on the other hand is unique in its ferocity and violence towards non-Muslims. Its scriptures are larded with calls to murder; it only tolerates christians and jews (as separate but deeply unequal varnas !!). It calls for open murder of hindus and buddhists (Polytheists and idol worshipper). It has ethnically cleansed minorities on a scale that was reached only by Genghiz Khan and Hitler. In Pakistan, there were over 20% hindus and sikhs in the 40s; today there are under 1%.

Do you repudiate this aspect of your tradition? Do you reject the portions of the Koran that call for violence against infidels?

The day you do that is the day you can criticize hindus and other groups. Till then you are merely yet another closet islamist enjoying the freedom of open societies as a parasite. And you have no credibility in the eyes of people who critic negative aspects of all faith traditions.

#237 by rsridhar on June 25, 2003 9:42pm PT
sridhar you are an Intelligent person. I dont see what it means to you to get a admission from muslims that the caste system exists in all sociteys in some form or the other. Would that satisfy your need to be seen as a equal with muslims?
Now just think what is the purpose of this kind of rationalisation again and again by you.
No socitey in the world is Ideal. There is always some kind of discrimination or the other. However the Indian caste system as what has existed for at least the last known written history and as exmplified in hindu texts(granted there are exceptions)is unique in scale and effect.
This fact has been recognised by may great Indian Leaders. Now are you trying to gloss over that and to what purpose? Im sure you will be accepted as an equal with any one in the world without this kind of spin. You dont need it, Grow up. Islams elegtarinainism has been noted by many of the hindu reformers of yester years. So no point in flogging a dead horse.
also the so called freedom among hindus to not to take the vedas literaly certainly did not help the dalits for centuries. It is precisly this lack of comphensive guidance which people can accept as a common denominator towards behaviour with each other is what caused the various now considered worng practices to flourish. At least that is what muslims think.

When people mention caste system they are not talking about theoritical aspects of seggration of labour etc they are talking about the exploitation. So accept that and not get involved in semantics.
Im sure that you will have much better avenues to put your energies to than this kind of futile word plays.

rsridhar #237 You repeat the points you made earlier, i.e. (1) that casteism exists in every culture, and (2) that the vedas are respected but are not relevant. You ignore what I wrote in response which I think was simple and clear enough, and simply re-iterate these earlier points you made while ignoring the response I already provided. This is hardly a way to have a two-way discussion.

I agree that as progress takes place, casteism will be left behind (in fact I too made this point).

I also know that many people take a lot of pride in their caste or tribal affiliation. In pakistan too there are many people who define themselves in terms of their tribal affiliation or ``zaat`` (which is simply a carryover of the caste system into muslim society). However, I dont think this is something good, since this the obverse side of this pride is often contempt for people of other groups. This is just another form of racism. The only think I think an individual is justified in taking pride is in achievements based on his individual effort.

Hon(?) Syed,
now that it has been repeatedly proved that you know nothing about Hinduism kindly change your focus to something you do know something about.Shaivites distinct from Hindus!!I primarily worship through the forms of Shakti and Shiva and don`t tell me I`m not a Hindu.Leave Divide and Rule to the Brits,at least they get it right-and probably will again in Iraq.That`s like saying Sunnis are distinct from Muslims( sorry I forgot there are some Shias that do say that).You`re the one obsessed with your own ancestry,with a nick like that;if other people question you,they are not obsessed,,merely amused and/or curious. Get a life.Please.Watch the footy.Anything at all.

rsridhar #237

{{I think you have misread my post or you are twisting the facts.}}

That is a chronic ailment with this worthy - aggravated by the sufferer being blithely unaware of his condition.

{{This shows you live in the past and do not know what is happening recently.}}

Ditto with this malady.

re:#231 by tahmed32
You are saying caste system is wrong. I am saying right or wrong it exists in diffrerent ways in all cultures. Only, it is called caste system in India. I gave you some egs. Caste system becomes wrong only when it seeks to exploit.
I think you have misread my post or you are twisting the facts. I am sayin that Vedas are still respected but they are not relevant. So, quoting them by people on board who do not know even one word of Sanskrit (and who probably depend on English translations on the web) is absurd.
You have to live in India to understand what caste is. Sudra by the way is not a politically correct word. The word now is Dalit. This shows you live in the past and do not know what is happening recently. Do you know that C.M of UP is a Dalit woman by name of Mayawati? Is she proud of being a Dalit? you bet. She has never said in public that she wants to be known as a brahmin or any other so called upper caste. Dalits are still exploited and that is wrong. Once that exploitation disappears, they can come up in life just as Mayawati was able to come up and become a C.M. I know from personal interactions with many ``low castes`` in the past to say this emphatically that they are not ashamed of their caste. They only need and pine for equal opportunities.
In the end, as opportunities spread and India progresses, caste will become irrelevant. It will still remain but only as an identity of a person. Ask anyone in India who he is. You will be surprised how many people respond to this by naming their caste: a rajput or a jat etc.
Again you are giving Vedas as eg to prove a point just as that guy syed did. Few can read and understand vedas. Unlike Qoran, Vedas are not binding on its followers. Hindus may respect it but do not swear by it. I hope you guys at least understand this.
Sridhar