This Beloved Arab Colony

Washington Post editor`s interview with Mr. Musharraf:

Q. Mr. President, can you talk a little bit about democracy in Pakistan.

I know that U.S. officials say the new aid program is going to be linked a little bit to that and, of course, you held parliamentary elections last year but you seem to have not been able to mend the rift that you`ve had with this tradition of secular civilian parties in Pakistan, several of them, and there`s troubles over the constitutional amendments you`ve wanted to put through still.

Where do you see this going? How are you going to make the system function more democratically? What is your vision of reform?

PRESIDENT MUSHARRAF: Now I have seen various interviews and statements in the media in the West with talks of the emergence of MMA or the religious parties because I did not allow these parties to function. Now, this is actually-- the parties are very much there. We are talking of the people`s party and PMLA, they are very much there. They contested elections freely.

What we have done are against two individuals, and these two individuals are the ones who have run Pakistan twice before and brought the country to the brink of bankruptcy, brought the country to a state where it was going to be declared a failed state. . . . So what we have done really is that in the constitutional amendment, . . . individuals who have contested and won elections twice and served as chief ministers and prime ministers twice are ineligible to run.

So therefore these two are out of the election. Their party has very much contested the election, they are very much a part of the Pakistan politics, nobody can deny this fact. They are continuing their activities absolutely free. . . .

I could not put an arm on the subject of what is sustainable democracy because we analyze why in the past 55 years democracy has not functioned in Pakistan.

Why has it not functioned?

Why is it then from `58 to `99 when democracy was allowed totally free operation, why did it fail again?

Why is it that four prime ministers . . . came and went.

Two presidents were dismissed unceremoniously, one chief justice was removed unceremoniously, the Supreme Court of Pakistan was escorted[out] physically, why was an army chief also disposed of unceremoniously?

All this happened during the period of this democracy, so therefore there is a requirement to break the status quo, to restructure and think why, what are the corrective steps we need to ensure sustainable democracy in Pakistan?

And that is what we have done.

And it is these people sitting outside who don`t want its implementation for their own personal ends. Totally personal ends of personal gain. . . .(Washington Post)

now can sameerjb, hamidm, tahmed, saminasha, rozaiba, urstruly answer the WHY WHY WHY -- of Bholey Bhaley -- Bhai Bhai Bhai -- Musharraf?

folks please get off this crass and demeaning debate of Syed vs the Brahmins -- it is unbecoming and unworthy of Chowkis to wallow in this subcontinental mud wrestling -- for crying out loud --

enough is is enough.....

Msouza, you are the one who initiated this, not me. And trust me we could go on forever dissing each other.
As to your comment on brotherhood, i do believe in the brotherhood of mankind, but i would expand it a little further, and say that there are levels of affinity one feels towards others, this is human nature. I am sure your sense of brotherhood with your hindu brethren or Indian brethren is much stronger than with a Chinese, the same way we are taught as Muslims that the highest level of brotherhood a muslim has is towards their fellow Muslim brethren, and this sense of brotherhood has precedence over all other things, i.e. race, nationality, etc. This might be untrue in some cases, but the precedence was set by our beloved rasool e kareem Muhammad saws, and we have to endeavour to follow his example.
Now, to the question of caste in other religions, you have to understand the difference between something thats sanctioned by a religion and something that creeps into a religion due to cultural influences, thats your biggest problem. Allah swt doesnt tell us that a certain caste was created from His foot, we are all the children of Adam; Blacks; Whites; Arabs; Indians, and so forth.

#211 by Honorable_Syed on June 24, 2003 2:55pm PT
Your post did not annoy me at all..haha
And I had written a befitting reply to your post that would set you right.... but…no use I feel..….Jaane do…tumhare jaise ke kya muh lagnaa

In our religion they say:
Keechar pe pathar marney se khud par bhi cheentey par jatey hain(if we throw stones in a muddy puddle full of dirt, it will fly back on our face too)…so better stay away from such people…

#226 by arjun_m on June 25, 2003 7:35am PT
#213 by tahmed32 on June 24, 2003 8:47pm PT
++
so we have the Battle of the Giants starting again: On the green corner we got the Hon`ble Syed (he refuses to move away from the green corner and find his own damn corner...). On the safron corner we got...messrs. m_souza, mishra, arjun
++

Hey..keep me out of this. I couldn`t possibly care less about camel jockey prophets or 5 headed gods....
----------------------------------

I too am not a savior of Hinduism. It has survived for 5000 years based on its good things. Why should we bother to defend it. If it is good it will survive otherwise not.
And the last time I went to a temple was …well.. I don’t even remember…and yet I follow whatever is good in Hinduism(there is plenty) and other religions too.
I believe if there is God..it has to be one…not like what other people think…Allah sitting in one part of the sky(heavens?)..Christian God in the other..and Hindu God(s) in some other corner..
There has to be only one power running this universe…this is my belief.

But do Muslims feel the same? The likes of honorable_syed
All my debates are for those who believe that only Hindusim has caste system. Probably there is a worse discreet from of discrimination going on in other religions.
Also, some people like Syed..believe only in Muslim brotherhood and not the brother hood of mankind. For such people if the other person is a Muslim than he is a brother..otherwise a kafir..to be abhored

Right Hon the Moghul?

Hon Syed #216 If we are of the same deen, then not only am I your brother but so is dost mittar and stuka (who are not muslims), not to mention the countless millions of other well-meaning person on earth regardless of religion. If we muslims lived up to the finest teachings of the Quran, we would live in peace and be respected by every community in the world. And the finest teachings of the Quran include its universal message, which enjoins upon us in so many ways to respect all religions, and that issues of religion are matters for God to decide upon, not man. Thus, we have no right to ridicule anyone`s religion, or even someone who calls himself an agnostic. Those are their personal matters. And also equality of all individuals. And, as brotherly advice, my suggestion would be for you to consider getting a new nick. People would then focus on what you have to say, rather than on yourself. You may not like my saying this, but i mean it sincerely and hope you will reflect on it rather than being offended.

rsrsidhar #217 I hope you will see the clear contradiction within your post. You start by disowning the vedas by saying ``Vedas are not for this age. Plain and simple. So quoting them to prove a point is just pointless.``. The rest of your post then provides a defense of the very institution of casteism concerning which Hon Syed quoted verses from the vedas. Your post simply illustrates the point I made earlier that religious extremists (muslim or hindu or any other kind) contradict themselves at every turn.

You seem like a decent gentleman, but I really think that you have unquestioningly accepted certain chauvinistic views concerning hinduism (including hate for islam) that perhaps you should think about. Even your defense of casteism is extremely weak: do you really think that sudras were proud of the fact that they were considered untouchables? that they would not have happily become a warrior rather than doing the low level work relegated to them? and by saying that ``everybody does it`` you are merely admitting that casteism is wrong and trying (incorrectly) to equate it with social inequalities that are based on economic and other factors, not rooted in religious dogma.

Rather than trying to prove islam is bad and hinduism is good, you would i think be better off accepting the fact that the vedas do have something to do with the hindu religion, and that it does contain passages of the kind Hon Syed quoted. Also accept the fact that casteism is a relic of a primitive society, and belongs to the past not to the future. This does not mean hinduism is bad or that the vedas have nothing to teach you. i have not read the vedas, but i cant imagine any religious book being held sacred by communities through the ages if it did not contain plenty of positive things to teach. All we have to do is remember that the vedas (like the quran) came into being a long time ago and human society has progressed a great deal since then. I am very comfortable with the Quran since it`s basic spirit is indeed very enlightened and it teaches positive values (including the equality of all mankind). I am sure you will find the same thing in the vedas. Defend those positive values, not the evil remnants of a primitive past which is basically the root of casteism.

arjun #226 i forgot that you were fighting in the indo-pak ring, not in the hindu-huslim ring. So sorry for the mistake.

Urstruly#224
Thanks (can`t think of a word for it in my potohari dialect!) for this information.

Yes veeresh, all muslims are equal, regardless of ethinicity, race, gender or lineage. In the eyes of Allah swt what matters is piety. I know of many of my relatives who have wed their daughters to Africans, Arabs, and Iranians, we are all Muslims. As to the question of ahmadiyyah, they are not equal because they are not Muslims.

Dost-mitter 206
``I have read an Indologist (can`t remember the author) claiming that Gita was, in fact, written after Buddha. ``

It is claimed by none other than aurobindo that gita was in fact written by sri sanracharya in 9the centuray and inserted into the mahabharata. According to aurobindo, there is no reference to gita in any of the hindu literature before sankaracharya started pointing out this jewell in the midst of the mahabharata fantasmagoria. All that aurobindi concludes is that if it is written into by sankaracharya, he has done a good job, and ultimately it is of significance only to historians and not for a spiritual seeker like him.

Also there is the question of Budha as the nineth avatar in hnduism. How did hinduism a religion as old as the moutains can have a 4th century BC chap as an avatar. Again it is alleged that it is a trickery by yet another malayalee to contain the spread of budhism. The spread of budhism stopped around 9th century after it was found that budha is none other than a hindu god.

Syed Honourable ji, I am told all Muslims are equal. So would you agree that a Syed, a Muslim OBC, an Ahemdiya . . . all are equal in the eyes of the Lord?

If you don`t answer, I will understand, and forgive you, since I am almost Brahmin.

SameerJB:
Thanks for an informative post, as usual.
BTW are you aware of any pronouncements of Buddha on the caste or the varna system? Did he condemn it explicitly?
Also, are you aware if there have been any other known ``buddhas`` besides Siddharta?

Dost-mitter

Hindko and Siraiki are considered the border languages because they are spoken in the border belts of Punjab. Siraiki is spoken in suthern punjab in a belt along the sindh - it is also spoken in sindhi territorial belt as well. Siraiki in syntax is punjabi however, it is greatly influenced by Sindhi and to some extent Baluchi since overwhelmingly population in those areas is of Baluchi tribes.

Hindko is spoken in northwestern punjab- nroth of rawalpindi in a belt on the border of punjab and nwfp. On NWFP side it is spoken from Peshawar to Abottabad & Haripur and in Punjab from the eastern shore of river sindh to the taxila. This language in syntax is punjabi but influenced by Pushto.

Potohari has a wide coverage. It is spoken from the West bank of jehlum to the border with kashmir in north and then it goes south of the Hindko belt covering the whole swan valley changing somewhere right above Sargodha and Mianwali. This language is very indigeneous and has lesser influence of other languages in it.

#220 nasah

Last week I sent the following letter to Bush, my senators and congressperson.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear President Bush,

I am writing to you to convey my concerns about
General Musharraf,
the current military ruler of Pakistan. I hope you
will convey
these to him, when you meet with him later this week.

Pakistan has cooperated
well in some aspects with the United States, in
particular, by the handing over
of some of the many Pakistan-resident Al Qaeda
terrorists to the United States.
However, the ``terror infra-structure`` in Pakistan,
which consists of ``religious
schools`` that impart arms training and hatred as well
as officially-tolerated
groups with extreme agendas remains untouched. This
infra-structure can be used to
revive violence directed at the United States and its
allies at any time. Indeed,
as I write this message,this infra-structure continues
to be used to support violence
in the indian state of Jammu and Kashmir.

I believe General Musharraf plans to ask you for
substantial financial assistance.
As a US citizen and taxpayer, I support our nation
providing some
such funds to Pakistan.

However, the disbursement of such funds MUST be tied
to the complete destruction
of Pakistan`s terror infra-structure. ``Religous
Schools`` that impart arms training and
openly flaunt their support for extremism must be shut
down. The tentative steps towards
democracy taken by General Musharraf must be followed
through by free and fair elections
open to all Pakistanis.

I would urge you to present General Musharraf with a
time-bound schedule
that must be followed by his administration in
completing these important steps. You should make it
clear that failure to meet this schedule would
jeopardize future funding from the United States.

Doing anything
less will endanger the future security of the United
States, its citizens and its allies.

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