This Beloved Arab Colony

re:#202 by tahmed32
Vedas are not for this age. Plain and simple. So quoting them to prove a point is just pointless.
There is nothing wrong with Caste system. It exists everywhere, only it is not so explicitly mentioned. Top 2% of rich people in U.S control 90% of the country`s wealth. They are hardly ever seen in public and go in private jets and chaffeur driven cars. These are the modern day upper castes. Even in Pak, i would say the landlords, the miltary generals etc are the upper castes.
Caste system is wrong only when it exploits. I had said in several posts in the past that caste system as it existed in a remote past in India was different from what exists now. There was free mobility between castes in the past. Those who had inclination towards schloarly work, and were spiritual by nature gravitated towards such a position and were called brahmins. Veda Vyasa, the most respected of Sages (and who wrote Mahabharata, brought the 4 vedas together and wrote several Puranas) was born to a fisherwoman and became accepted as a great sage by his achievements.
Such free mobility ceased later on and caste system became heriditary and exploitative. That is when it became a burden on the society.
If caste system did not exist in Islam, there would not be so much discussion on Syeds in this forum. Look at any marriage Ad in a Paki newspaper and one would know that caste system is alive and kicking in Pakistan. Caste system is not hindu or muslim. It is product of a mindset just as apartheid or British Raj was.
Sridhar

re: post # 202
Further to my post to tahmed, i have this to say. I do not think caste system will ever disappear from India. People in India, regardless of what caste they belong to, are proud of their caste. What should disappear is the preveleges that come with belonging to a particular caste. That will take time but is already happening by gradual empowerment of the so called ``low caste`` (eg Dalits) thr` a political process.
Sridhar

``This Beloved Arab Colony`` -- is now a Beloved US Colony -- slated to be reformed not rearmed by the US.

Musharraf MiaN has been told by US to make two of his nightmares into tomorrows dreaded reality.

bring back Nawaz Sharif and Benazir Bhuttu from army exile -- into the political fold of Pakistan for strengthening the mainstream -- without which there can be no REAL Democracy -- only Musharraffian Chaperoned Sham Democracy --

secondly to secularize the Madarassas curriculum PRONTO to weed out Jihadism --
otherwise no installments of that 3 billions.

Seeing -- Mushy and Bushy talking like `Langotia Yaars` -- Messers Advani and company are -- in Roy`s immortal phrase -- ``furiously gyrating their hips`` -- to attaract US attention -- by suggesting to send an Indian Army contigent to help Bushmaster restore order in Iraq and hunt Saddam Husein!!!

at the eve of Vajpayee visit to China -- Musharraf`s visit to US reminds me of an Akber Allahabadi`s couplet:

aap BA pass haiN tuo meiN bhee BB pass hooN...

Saminasha wrote in 214:

``There has been a recent study showing that in the US, 5% of all Hindus are getting doctorates in journalism and law, and 1% of Muslims (from the entire Islamic world) are. Any comments? ``

Those numbers sound large! Do you mean that the proportions of journalism and law students in the US are 5 and 1 percent, respectively?

If so, then I`d say that Hindu`s are moving beyond the ``become a doctor or engineer`` mentality of previous generations. Muslims would be wise to follow. I wonder what the breakdown is by ethnic group within the Muslim community.

Either way, the implications for the Muslim community are, of course, bad. I just don`t see how the Muslim community can maintain and manage it`s social profile without making significant inroads into precisely the two fields you mentioned…especially in the presence of active hostility from certain quarters.

Brother Tahmed,
I am in the corner of our deen Islam. Now i know we have our differences subject to interpretations, but i still consider you my brother in Islam, that is the beauty of our religion.

so we have the Battle of the Giants starting again: On the green corner we got the Hon`ble Syed (he refuses to move away from the green corner and find his own damn corner...). On the safron corner we got...messrs. m_souza, mishra, arjun (jay is on vacation).

To join in the spirit of the sport, let me throw this one from The Hindu: ``In a bid to overcome Pakistan`s delaying tactics on the resumption of air links with India, the Government today agreed to open technical discussions on the subject with Islamabad. ``

Ha! Ha! The Indian government pulled the plug on air links, and now is upset with Pakistan delaying re-start...reminds me of an old girl friend.... (Not to add to the Indo-Pak sports on chowk, but this was too funny to resist.)

There has been a recent study showing that in the US, 5% of all Hindus are getting doctorates in journalism and law, and 1% of Muslims (from the entire Islamic world) are. Any comments?

dosy-mittar:
Many of the theological and social structural element not found in Buddhist text are not expected, not because of the chronology of evenets but order of importance. Hinduism or whatever you may call it was heading ina direction with or without Budha to make pyrimidal top in theology secondary. Buddah expedited that process. God was becoming secondary becasue of his extensive manifestations varying from place to place. It was a natural outcome of large society moving on local levels instead of a united tribal structure of middle eastern type. The realities of every profound thought were being expressed as elaborate manifestation, making the top or God, secondary for theological and tertiary for practical purposes. It was a slow death of one invisible God of the skies taking place through differentiation. So Buddha continued on this path and his primary concern focused on self, secondary on ethics, tertiary on manifestations and irrelevency to one God.

The earliest dating of Mahabharata comes from greek historians associated with Alexander who mentioned names of several tribes or castes and their relationship briefly which sounds similar to many of the parts of Mahabharata. However, its final form, by Vyasa is definitely in CE period. These are not just one stories or one writer/ poet/ philosopher composition. They may have been in the making for centuries, just as Heer Ranjha which was written in 18th century by Waris Shah of a supposed story of 15-16th century but many resemblances between Krishna and Ranjha on one hand and Heer and Sita on the other suggest juxtaposition of more than one metaphor in work. Same can be said of Mahabharata. The spread between several juxtaposed stories or historical events over a period of time, being compiled and passed on verbally, finally put together by Vyasa.

Buddhism is about mind control over self and body and some basic values system like 8 fold path including things like good speech, good thoughts, good observation, dedication etc. At next level it discusses in extensive detail what is meant by good thought, good speech, speaking truth etc. God, stars, mythology was later added by Tibetan and Theravada and much less by Mahayana. Because of very low mythology in Mahayana, its spread in China, Korea and Japan allowed it to absorb local myths and philosophies very comfortably.

Jesus and Mohammad come with elaborate and fixed mythology. It leaves no room for the local myths to be accomodated. Christianity found a way out by accepting local miracles, visions of Mary from other cultures and sainthoods and Muslims have done same to some extent with karamaats of Sufis, pirs but very resistant to non-Muslims karamaats nearby. But local myths are not likely to dominate as in the case of Japanese or Korean Buddhisms.

Urstruly:
Mahabharat, whether fact or fiction, is not treated by the Hindus as a revealed scripture. It is an upanishad whose authorship is attributed to rishi Ved Vyas.

Thanks for the info. on Hindko. The dialect seemed to me closer to that of Rawalpindi, that`s why I was surprised about its association with Gujranwala. I am confused at chowk by the use of different words like potohari, seraiki, hindko, etc., which to me all appear as the same language. The only dialect which is not fully comprehensible to me is Multani, which you now call seraiki.

I`ve got for you too msouza:
May i have your attention please?
May i have your attention please?
Im obessessed with Syeds Who came through with Muslim invaders to terrorize my borough
They told me how to stop worshipping male and female organs of procreation
Gave me the finger and told me to sit and twirl
Converted a billion hindus and still screamed, ``Peni$ Worshippers!``
(I`m msouza..) so come and convert me while I worship these organs
And shoot me twenty-five times in the same spot (Ow!)
I think I our ancestors got generations brainwashed
to worship organs and pour milk till they brains rot (uhh-oh)
Stop they milk flow until they veins clot
I need a pain shot, and shiva needs a back shot
Purple haze and acid raindrops
I drink the same milk until my mouth slops (gulp gulp)
Bad Boy, I told you that I can`t stop
You gotta make em fear you `fore you make em feel you
So everybody buy my shit or I`ma come and kill you
Im the organ worshipper.
Yes I am the real organ worshipper
HAHA!

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#184 by m_souza on June 23, 2003 10:05pm PT
#168 by arjun_m on June 23, 2003 10:31am PT
I can see an eminem rip-off...
i`m the real slim shady will be i`m the real syed

May I have your attention please?
May I have your attention please?
Will the real Syed please stand up?
I repeat, will the real Syed please stand up?
We`re gonna have a problem here

I`m Syed, yes I`m the real Syed
All you other Syeds are just imitating
So won`t the real Syed please stand up?
Please stand up, please stand up

Cuz I`m Syed, yes I`m the real Syed
All you other Syeds are just imitating
So won`t the real Syed please stand up?
Please stand up, please stand up
--------

Hey Hey you you...
Don`t leave me out..arjun
Tum akele ban baithe `Syed ` kyun

I too will stand up
ye dekho..Here I stand up
Coz` I am a Syed too
And more real one than you

I came to India ages ago
Sitting on my camel`s back
My country turned me `out`
So I came to a `Hinduland`
With all my invaders and band(baaja)
And turned these `kafirs` into `momeens`
Now they say they too are syeds like me(o! wat a shame )

Agar yaqeen na ho meri baat par
Then you can test my DNA
And that will tell the truth
That I am higher that you
That I am superior to you

Here I stand on a pedestal high
In my regal blood so supreme
Come hither, come hither
Thou lowly ones, thou `kafirs`
Bow your head to me
And seek my blesssings

#204 Urstruly

Absolutely there is a reference to varna in Gita (Note: caste is a portuguese word). People will even modest knowledge will be aware that the two words in india that describe group identity are varna and jati.


And where does it say that varna is determined by birth in the Gita? Or that certain sections of the population must be deprived of education because of varna? Or that sections of society must be forever forced to serve another group ETERNALLY????

There is NO problem with notions of varna and jati as long as it does not extend to the public domain and to educational and professional opportunities. THis is exactly the way color discrimination has been dealt with in the west. This is also the general attitude that even only modestly progressive hindus have today.

References to varna in Gita are understood as speaking to the different qualities and potentials humans have. This is not a terribly modern viewpoint (keep in mind that the Gita was old even at Al-Beruni`s time -- a considerable part of his history from 1100 is given over to the analysis of the Gita) but not one that necessarily needs repudiation.

Dost-Mitter

Whether or not Gita was written before or after Buddah, there are two things that we can say for sure:

1. Caste system definitely existed at the time of Buddah.

2. From the language of verse 4:13 (or at least from the English translation of the verse) of Gita the words of Lord Krishna sound more like an endorsement or re-affirmation of a fact that was already in existence. Otherwise Lord Krishna would have said ``Lo and Behold! Here I create the four castes.....``.

I think that takes the thesis to a next level. The problem with each and every religious scripture (except Qura`n) is that they are actaully commentaries by third parties. For example, take Bible, it sounds more like a biography of Jesus Christ (pbuh) where there are lot of verses that go like this ``Jesus said that.....`` and ``Jesus did that.....``. This makes the authenticity of books, as books of revelation, very questionable.

The dialect that is spoken in Guranwala is almost the same as in Lahore. The two cities are just 60 kms apart. I am not from Gujranwala and that incident did not occur in Gujranwala. That dialect was in Hindko which is spoken in Northwest Punjab along the border of NWFP and overwhelmingly in NWFP.

Urstruly#204:
Rsridhar no doubt has a religious explanation. Here is a non-religious one:
I have read an Indologist (can`t remember the author) claiming that Gita was, in fact, written after Buddha. This makes sense to me as there is no mention of Krishna in any of the numerous Buddhist jataka tales which revolve around Hindu gods and godesses. The rise of Buddhism in India had weakened considerably the influence of the caste system. Mahabharat was written probably around the same time that the revival of Hinduism was taking place after its decline during the period of Buddhist ascendancy. The glorification of the caste system, e.g., the famous Eklavya episode, was probably part of the process of reestablishing the caste hierarchy.
But nothing in Hinduism (assuming that such an animal exists) is that simple. Mahabharat seems to extol Kshatriyas much more than Brahmins who generally play a supportive role in that epic. And Krishna himself was actually from a much lower caste, the Yadvas or dhood-wallahs and yet is probably one of the most reverred incarnation of God in the Hindu religion.
....digression from another board. Do people in gujranwals speak the same language as people from Pindi (from your conversation between the two cyclists)?