Survival of the Fittest

……with folks like tahmed at one end and urstruly at the other, sometimes i wish i was an indian.............

.......... i know, it is a terrible thing to say but the heeng-eaters as a nation are consistent – they might be odiferous, malfeasant and deceitful, but they are consistent ………… from the bleeding heart dost-mittar on one end to frau sadna and herr jay at the other, the horrible hindoos have a consistent position on Kashmir – it is an integral part of India and hell will have to freeze over before they part with one inch of it ………on the other hand, the pathetic pakis are all over the map – some like mullah urstruly and airman romair want to march on delhi; others like tahmed want to sit around the fire holding hands with code coolies and sing kumbaya ………… what exactly is the average paki’s position on Kashmir ?………

......... as a nation, americans have a position that texas is an integral part of the us and anyone who is caught selling cuban cigars can end up in jail ………everyone with half a brain supported the war in iraq - except for the idiotic dixie chicks and the looney hollywood crowd who should have been packed off to france...............what about the pakis ?......they want to have their smuggled paan and bollywood movies while their country is in a state of war with India .........others want to declare jihad and march off to martyrdom ............ it is idiotic to suggest that a nation with an average second grade education and the sophistication of a desert bedouin is making the right choices .........some of them are like tahmed should be sent to Chennai and bombay to take care of the poor orphans and others, like urstruly, should be packed off to mecca to await the coming of the mahdi..........

.......... i don`t really care what position we take but, for god`s sake, let`s take a position ........... i would be perfectly happy if we decided to give away all of kashmir or accepted the loc as the border or if kashmir became independent ......... it doesn`t matter, but it is silly to be all over the map ............. how the heck do you guys expect anyone to take you seriously - do something, or get off the pot ...........

Zeemax ( # 310 ) :

My father has a new Tata Indica Petrol version as opposed to the most popular diesel version. We used to have Ambassador car previously. I can tell you that I was surprised to feel the Indica ride when I last visited India on a one month vacation. It is an excellent car. My roundtrip from Hyderabad to Khammam ( 400 kms total ) was very pleasant. The baby ran constantly at 90 - 100kmph so smoothly that I was surprised. I had a very bad impression about anything made in India. I thought they are all sub standard and $uck. But this one proved me wrong. Another important thing I noticed is that it has a lot of leg room for the rear seats ... equal to 2002 Honda civic here in the US. I have a feeling that petrol versions of Indica are less noisy and run smoothly compared to diesel versions. My what I have seen on the roads and what my father told, apparantly Indica has a major market share in India. Telco really made an excellent product.

I remember, when i was a child we used to go in our Ambassador on these long trips. I hated it. It could not sustain speeds of over 85kmph for more than an hour. The engine would overheat. I always thought Ambassador car $ucked and I still stick to it.

Zeema ( #310 ) :

Visit Telco`s SUVs. Mainly Tata Safari. Made 100% in india except ofcourse the DVD and Playstation entertainment optional packages for this SUV.

http://uv.telcoindia.com/

#313 by arjun_m
+++* PML-N acting president says Musharraf danced at the airport when Nawaz returned from the US ++++

+++All the military men, including Musharraf, apologized to Nawaz Sharif for committing a grave mistake and not taking him into confidence. They humbly requested him to visit America and save them+++++

Even SNL team and late night show hosts admit ,it sucks!

yeah it did happen in f**kin dreams of Hashmi who was not even a member of Sharif`s kitchen cabinet at that time. Pakistan army and apologise to some civilian ? yeah thats gonna happen in Paksitan............... and after Musharaf`s apology and dance performance prime minister was so happy that he awarded two Nishan-e-Haider to army not because Army pressurised him to do so but on the captivating dance performance of COAS.

Now after three and half year Hashmi suddenly find his famous viagra power to tell public about dancing moves of Mushraf.

dont forget its the same Pak army who making pakistan mess and frustrating you guys enough that every time you read something stupid against it ,you start dancing . Well no blame to you thats the best Indian could do...spend whole day digging pakistani/international websites and newspaper to find something against Pakistan and post it here.

zeemax #310
It appears that your only source of information about India (and it appears even for South Asia) is google searches.
1. Indica is 100% designed and made in India. It is built by TELCO (earlier known as Tata Engineering and Locomotive Company). Normally products from TELCO (and its competitor Ashok Layland) are quite sturdy, and I agree a bit noisy. And why I am acting as an expert on these vehicles? Because once I used to work for TELCO. Noisy part of partially due to road conditions. Indian automobile companies used to put more steel in the chasis to withstand the torture from the roads (I now doubt if it is correct strategy). Goal was to make a vehicle run for a longer duration as the expense of noise etc (even at the expense of Polution ..)
Indica, however is a very good car - generally noiseless. Normally customer care is also good these days. I am surprised at poor service seen by Sudershan Jagannathan. Perhaps he was stuck with a bad piece is using newspaper route to get it replaced.

2. Tata trucks are built 100% in India.

3. ``If translated in Purchasing Power terms given the average wage/price levels in USA in Dollars and the Pakistani or Indian wage /price levels in Rupee ; a second-hand broken down Maruti or Suzuki Alto costs the same for the Indians or Pakistanis as a Mercedes for the Americans In USA.``
Kindly realise that this situation is due to stronger currency of US and larger volumes of those car manufactures. You can as well say that when translated to purchasing power, a ford escort in Japan costs same as a Mecedes for the American in USA.
Every car manufacture has to use some raw material, machines and components produced externally. A stronger dollar buys more such stuff than a weaker ruppee. And all such cost gets added to the cost of automobile. Volumes are another big factor. Design cost of a vehicle is a fixed cost. Japanese manufactures are able to spread this cost over a very large volume and can reduce overall cost of their vehicle.
Zeemax - you might be surprised - but Indian automobiles are exported to Europe, Africa, Middle east. You can buy a Bajaj scooter in USA.

4. your earlier comments on Semiconductor industry - Semiconductor industry has two large cost components - Cost of setting up a clean manufacturing plant, and cost of design. Design of high-end microprocessors and semiconductor is very complex and costly. Long term production of such chips is viable only at high volumes. A very good attempt was made in early 80`s in form of Semiconductor Complex Limited Chandigarh. It ran well for few years but Khalistani movement and later a fire broke the back of this company. Mushrooming of contraband factories in south-east asia, which could save on design cost by using stolen/copied designs, and produce bulk chips at throwaway price also didn`t help.


Enough for today.

Bye

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#297 by arjun_m
Now we’re getting somewhere. Let’s talk about the auto industry.

Ever heard of the Tata Indica? And are you saying India should go back to producing the Ambassadors?

I did a quick google on Tata Indica as I hadn’t heard of it, and this is what I came up with amongst several other similar comments, but this is undeniably the best:


“I purchased an Indica V2 in July 2001. I wish I didn’t. The car works. It runs on road. It gives pretty decent mileage per liter of diesel. That is about it. For the last year I have been struggling to get rid of the noise problem in my vehicle. All kinds of noises; Emanating from every where under the hood you can imagine- wheezing, asthmatic, screeching, rattling & squeaking. Each and every moving part sings its own tune – air conditioning fan belt, idler bearing and so on.
Concorde Motors, the dealers of this automobile in the south offers fairly good post sales service. They come when ever called to tighten the loose belts and bearings. This is no ordinary service. A fortune worth bearing, belts have been replaced. My Indica AP10Q 5775, has been to the service center at least 10 times only for this problem. They have been coming to my place every other day to tighten (even as we speak Concorde engineers are doing so) or everybody in my part of the country will know that I have started my car. They do not know how to put an end to this problem. May be I just have to sell off this vehicle. But then who will buy it?
I have tried getting in touch with TELCO head, but he is so inaccessible. The regional staff I think have tried their best but they have lot more noises to attend to.
I have spent a good portion of my savings on this real value for money car. Value for money it is indeed, for you get more noise per car than any other car.

Dr. Sudarsan Jagannathan
Plot #114-115, Satya Sai Enclave (behind Satya Sai Vihar school), Military Dairy Farm Road, Mano vikas Nagar Post, Secunderabad 500 009
Email : sjagann@hd2.dot.net.in
biocorp@satyam.net.in
: (040) 779 1789
: 98490 12147”

This is sad, if indeed it is a 100% made in India car, which I doubt. The body panels look definitely imported and the engine, if manufactured domestically, gives the results so vividly described above. If reasonable cars were made in India, I would prefer an Indian car to a Japanese one for transportation anytime for the good of our two countries. India was significantly ahead in this technology but dumped it. Perhaps it can pick it up again.

Yes you should go back to manufacturing the Ambassador, as trying to mimic Fiat Uno gives you the Indica. Believe me Ambassador was a great car. Should have developed that for cost effectiveness/mass production instead of having killed it to letting the outdated-stripped down versions of Fiats, Suzukis and the Hyundais in; the cheap stuff sold to us; likes of which noone would even look at in the developed world. This is junk thrown on us. Have you seen the versions of the SAME cars in the US? The same models but with many more accessories and better engines and interior etc. sold there at half the price. Don’t you see that Arjun_M?

The Pakistani Versions of Maruti are two, Suzuki Alto and Mehran which are popular at the low-end. As is the Hyundai Santro. Fiat Uno (Diesel)) is also here at the low-end but a flop. The Pakistani high-end Automobile Industry is dominated by Toyota and Honda who assemble upscale 1300-2000 cc petrol/diesel sedans and aren’t available without a six month booking in advance with full upfront payment. There’s so much demand for simply acceptable quality as we have no choice. It’s considered ‘luxury’ here but it isn’t. It’s ‘enough’ luxury for us lowlifes which the Japanese have determined as enough to make money from us poor people.

Real Luxury is a Rolls Royce, any model. Silver Shadow or Corniche. Next is a Mercedes 600. Then all the S’ Class Mercedes. Then the BMW’s 7 & 8 series. The Cadillac’s form the rear end of the ‘luxury’ class. The Jaguars are done with anyway since the company was taken over by Ford of all the rednecks, but these were real luxury in their own time.

The deletion (transfer of tech) was originally supposed to and mandated to progressively advance upto 70% domestic components in case of Honda and Toyota in 7 years. But the companies found an easy way out. Now they just change the body panels and headlights/tail lights to give a new look every three years and announce it as a new model. So the deletion programme turns back the clock and starts with Zero on the ‘New’ model. The engines are the same though of 1980’s vintage in case of Toyota, though Honda puts in fancy engines now with Fuel Injection and variable transmissions etc., the minimum required, to compete with the market leader, Toyota, that has brand loyalty amongst Pakistani consumers.

So Toyota is laughing all the way to the bank selling us 1980’s underpowered junk.

This is because of the loyalty created in the 60’s as it was the first Japanese car in Pakistan, great at the time because the competition at that time were the British Austin/Morris/Vauxhall, the German Opel/Volkswagen, the US 6 cylinder Dodge Dart. All of immense quality but way too expensive for a price conscious market at between Rs. 40- to 60,000. There was a Swedish Skoda selling for Rs 12,000 at the cheapest end but broke down in six months and was a failure. The Japanese Toyota was cheap, reliable, and easily available. The first Toyota cost Rs. 18,000 for good value thus the brand loyalty still persists, although the value has disappeared since then and Toyota is cashing in on the brand loyalty.

A typical Honda or Toyota costs anywhere between Rs. 9 lacs and 12 Lacs now but still always out of stock.
You must look at the comparison. Say for a little over $20,000, one can get a basic C class Mercedes 190 in USA. That’s about Rs. 12 Lacs in Pakistani terms for which one gets a Honda or Toyota which are termed compact sedans in the US. If translated in Purchasing Power terms given the average wage/price levels in USA in Dollars and the Pakistani or Indian wage /price levels in Rupee ; a second-hand broken down Maruti or Suzuki Alto costs the same for the Indians or Pakistanis as a Mercedes for the Americans In USA.

My point only was to have countries like ours to have attained as much of technological advancement and value addition before the WTO regime is fully in place, the race that both India and Pakistan have already lost. When the WTO regime is fully implemented, Tata Indica will have to go out of business as it will have to compete with fully foreign assembled inexpensive imports of, say Korea which produces the cheapest automobiles. Not even imported kits being assembled will be possible then because deletion programmes in the automobile industry are against WTO. Then you can sit back and twiddle your thumbs over the demise of Tata industries.

Are you kidding me? Try opening up a company in China. The commie government will assign you a helper who will guide you through the approvals and other red tape. I can only wish India was as open as China, letting in anyone with $$. China today makes everything from cheap toys to cell phones. If that isn`t throwing its doors open, i dont know what is.

Yes China does have a department called MOFTEC which has over-riding powers to cut through the red-tape to assist investors. But that is a one-window operation to make the foreign investors sign on the dotted line as quickly as possible before they get scared away by beurocracy. All a ploy. As I had said to someone else on one of the boards “No laurels for your naivete”

I’m not an advisor to the Pakistani Govt or anything. Though on some important forums. I’ll be very happy if I’m able to contribute anything of substance for the betterment of both our two countries.

Who’s Captain Clueless?

Rgds

Urstruly,

Thank you for not highlighting everything in bold since that was making me wonder whether or not to pay attention to your reply.

I appreciate your sincere effort in putting forth kind but provoking replies along with your limitations on my questions.

I did notice something; but I am not sure what I noticed is what you are referring to.


Sherdil,

I read 2 of your posts with interest(haven`t gotten to the 3rd one yet) and found the analogy on fire and warmth quite appealing. I think you should have submitted your posts in form of an article since they address part ii of what Urstruly brought up. There are a few overlaps, but both the context and approach are slightly different. Urstruly`s article was emitting radiation, whereas yours exuded warmth.

Take Care.

Ustruly Sahib,

My interpretation of “fanatic” as I glanced through ZahraJ’s post is … a religious person who …

- believes in killing others for blasphemy, apostasy, and adultery

- wants to wage “pre-emptive” jihad against polytheists for no reason at all ... in the name of protecting Islamic ideology

- supports imprisoning Ahmadis for “posing” as Muslims


You fanatics are now screaming for human rights … only because your enemy is mightier and carries a bigger stick.

Ustruly # 302

``If you don’t mind, I will not address the first part of your post, which deals with three issues i.e. Iraq, Afghanistan/Taliban and Human rights violations in Muslim countries, because now I am pretty bored writing about these issues. ``

????????

There are a lot of people in between the Al Qaida and your ordinary Abdul.

`` But if by fanatics you mean any Muslim then I would blame your selective judgment. A news like banning of patloons in NWFP schools makes the headlines but the recently passed Compulsory Education Act of NWFP which forces parents to get their children primary education is ignored. This act holds parents responsible for their children`s education and a parent denying his offspring education may earn him jail. Another part of this Act makes the education free until matriculation. This doesn`t make news. ``

I will like to see how pouplar the MMA is when they enforce these laws. BTW health care in Cuba is ``free`` for it is worth.

`` By the way they also set up madrassas all around the country voluntarily to educate poor but this doesn`t qualify as education as per your standards. ``

Show me statistics on how well students from madrassas do.

`` At the risk of giving you a heart attack allow me to break this to you that according to a report published in 2002 GOP has not opened a single high school in whole country since 1991. ``

It is hard to open schools when the military is monopolizing all resources, supplying Taleban/Jihadis of all forms.


`` Example? Even Saddam Hussain didn`t set his oil wells on fire. However, Taliban did destroy artifacts in bamyan (which does not count as infrastructure) because they were subjected to a slow genocide through hunger by UN. What do you expect? ``

The UN imposed an arms embargo on Afghanistan. They supplied a lot of food aid to Afghans. Cannot blame the UN when the Taleban refused to allow food supplies to refugees.

hamidm

so should we figure out ways to open new schools or just scrap the whole idea of educating our kids, just because your political opponents are not only proposing it but as a matter of doing something about it?

hamidm #299 So, you are saying that although you think the Pakistan-India cold war is not a good idea, since it is government policy citizens on both sides must not do things that benefit the other side. Please tell me you are kidding. This point is dumb, and I think you are smarter than that. There are enough people on chowk who chant their respective government`s positions on Kashmir on chowk already, and I hope you are not leaning towards joining them.

As for bleeding heart liberals giving money to charity, in fact people of all political stripes give to charities. And the guys who give are generally not stupid, and by your thinking Bill Gates would be the dumbest of all giving away a hundred million for aids in Africa when he could have used it on booze. As for your friends finding God at 40 and giving up boozing, I think more likely they found their Liver. But dont let me stop you, and you go boozing with the Dalai Lama if you like. I just hope for your sake that you are not making a virtue out of necessity, incidentally.

dost mittar #291 Public opinion is indeed fickle as you say. In real life, even if people are as hostile as they appear on chowk, I really dont think people spend so much time thinking about India-Pakistan politics anyway. On chowk I think it provides something to talk about to people who have nothing else to talk about. And thankfully, there are plenty of people in both India and Pakistan who can think for themselves (and a number of them are on chowk as well - they just dont write very often) and do not have to wait for government policies to change to change their views.

urstruly says ``the recently passed Compulsory Education Act of NWFP which forces parents to get their children primary education is ignored``

............ similar acts were passed by bb and nawaz sharif - at that time the people laughed at the sheer stupidity of the whole idea ...... where are the schools that these people are supposed to send their kids ?....... most pathan kids bring home at least fifty rupees a day scavenging through the garbage dumps for paper, metal and bones ..........how are the parents supposed to live without this income? ........ the last time i checked, an afghani nan was four rupees and a one room house in the slums of peshawar was three thousand rupees a month? ..... the average wage for a day laborer is a hundred rupees and he has to supply his own shovel and pick.............and he has to send his kids to school or go to jail! ......... what nonsense!

.......... the mullahs are a bunch of charlatans who are feeding the public a line of empty promises not seen since adam was promised the garden of eden ..........the only thing that tops this is tahmed trying to help the kids in chennai ..............