Survival of the Fittest

#364 by tahmed32 on May 7, 2003 8:39am PT

virtue doesn`t end anywhere..i am sure it is everywhere..but tolerance is not everwhere at the same level
its just that it is a bit surprising(rather nice) to see such moderate veiws in a pakistani..especially the part abt reading hindu scriptures/books...

dost-mittar #363 And you get lost in the forest if you get into the details.
Religious books are not computer programs or legal documents where every single word can be a potential source of hell.
Religious books are like poetry, or a fine painting, or the Book of Life itself (the DNA), where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and where the over-all point being made is significant. Not any one specific line or verse.

m_souza #362 Why do you think all virtue ends at the border of India and Pakistan?

tahmed:
But the devil is in the details.:-)

tahmed..your way of thinking is like that of many of the moderate Indian muslims like our President Abdul kalam..who reads Geeta as well as Quran. .
Maybe you were born at the wrong side of the border....like Adnan Sami

dost mittar #359 ``Shirk`` (multiple gods) is indeed rejected in Islam in favor of a single Supreme Being. However: my understanding of the essence of hinduism is that it to recognizes a single Supreme Being, the Brahman.
Also, the most important lines in the Quran are in the Surah Baqarah (which in many ways summarizes the Quran), where in order to be in good standing with God the basic requirements are described as being (a) belief in a Supreme Being, (b) belief in the Judgement Day (meaning knowing the difference between right and wrong), and (c) doing good deeds. Everything else is details.
I have read parts of the Quran in urdu, but the one I read most carefully was Yusuf`s english translation which is generally accepted as being accurate. I would be interested in any further comments you may have on your reading of the Quran (on this tired old board, or some other one - maybe an article you may want to think of writing).
Anyway, glad you find time to read the Quran. I hope to find time to read the Vedas. I do have the Gita at home, but have not read more than the first chapter or so. The part I read did refer to the concept of a Supreme Deity who cannot be fully described (which is exactly the Islamic concept, and is indeed found in many other religions).

a nice role for a frontline state

May 6, 2003
In Pakistan Border Towns, Taliban Has a Resurgence
By CARLOTTA GALL

QUETTA, Pakistan, May 4 — It is like a scene from the old days of the Taliban in Afghanistan. Dozens of religious students, or talibs, and other Afghan exiles with thickly wound turbans and long beards gather on Thursday afternoons on two of the main squares in this city.

They are among the many Taliban who took refuge here in the border regions of Pakistan after their government collapsed in December 2001, and they are staying in the sprawling Afghan refugee settlements here or with fellow tribesmen in remote villages.

These days they are gathering openly, showing a growing confidence since an alliance of religious parties sympathetic to their movement won provincial elections here last fall.

On Thursdays they meet one another, and the talk is of war and the return of the Taliban to Afghanistan.

``We don`t like the Americans, and Karzai is a puppet of George W. Bush,`` said Abdul Karim, 26, a member of the Taliban movement until he left Afghanistan two years ago, referring to Hamid Karzai, the new leader of Afghanistan. ``We want an Islamic government in Afghanistan,`` added Mr. Karim, who is now a student at a madrasa, or religious school, in Quetta.

Nasrullah, a religious student here who recently arrived from Kandahar, in Afghanistan, said that ``if the situation continues and the Americans do not behave well, I am ready to fight, because jihad is the duty of every Muslim.``

He said he had left home two weeks ago, after the governor of his province ordered Taliban supporters to leave unless the elders of their village could vouch for their good behavior.

``It is too difficult studying in Afghanistan, because all the time people demand, `Who are you and what are you doing?` `` said Mullah Shahzada, a religious teacher and former fighter from the southern province of Helmand.

Quetta is a home away from home for the Taliban. CD`s of Taliban leaders` speeches are on sale in the shops, the Friday sermons in the mosques are openly supportive of those who consider themselves to be waging a holy war against Americans or other non-Muslims, and young men speak openly of their desire to go to Afghanistan to fight.

The Taliban presence is so strong that even many of those who have been refugees here for 20 years seem to believe that the Taliban will return to power in Afghanistan. ``There will be fighting until the Taliban get power again,`` said Nur Mohammad, an Afghan shopkeeper. ``God willing, they will force those infidels out of the country.``

The border regions of Pakistan, and Quetta in particular, are emerging as the main center of Taliban support in the region, and a breeding ground for opposition sentiment to the American campaign in Afghanistan and Mr. Karzai`s government. Senior Taliban officials and commanders are taking refuge here, too, Afghan and American officials say. Members of the political opposition in Pakistan confirm that Taliban leaders are active and are recruiting young men to fight.

Alarmed by the recent increase in attacks by rebels on American and government forces, Mr. Karzai asked Pakistan last week to hand over some senior Taliban officials and commanders who he said were in Pakistan. American military officials and diplomats have also pushed for more effort from Pakistan on the border to prevent infiltration of armed groups into Afghanistan.

Pakistani officials deny any knowledge that senior Taliban or Al Qaeda figures are in Pakistan, but have said they will investigate. ``We will do everything possible not to allow anything detrimental`` to the Afghan government ``being done from Pakistani soil,`` Pakistan`s foreign ministry spokesman, Aziz Ahmed Khan, said last week.

More than 400 Taliban and Al Qaeda suspects have been arrested in Pakistan since Sept. 11, 2001, more than in any other country after Afghanistan, a figure that hints at the extent of the presence of Afghan militants here. Nevertheless, none of the senior Taliban leaders have been apprehended, even though they have started calling friendly local journalists and giving interviews over their satellite telephones.

Those familiar with the situation contend that Pakistan`s army and secret service are allowing the Taliban to operate in Pakistan, and even protecting them. Further, the local government, now dominated by an alliance of religious parties sympathetic to the Taliban, provides them with legitimacy by association.

Maulavi Abdul Wasih talks like one of the Taliban. A burly, bearded man in a white turban, he was a candidate from a district on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border, and is now a senior minister of Baluchistan province, in charge of planning and development.

There will be no peace as long as American forces remain in Afghanistan, he warned. ``America is a superpower, but it should not try to control third world countries,`` he said in an interview. ``The Americans interfered in Afghanistan and destroyed the government there; they should leave now.``

In his view, part of the problem is that the Americans have supported one group, namely the Karzai government, against the Taliban. Whether he or others in Pakistan helped them or not, he said, the Taliban would fight back. ``This is the rule here,`` he said. ``If someone`s home is attacked, he will defend it. Whether I support him or not, he will do that.``

He said he had no contact with former Taliban leaders and doubted they were living in Pakistan. He knew of their declaration of a holy war through news reports, he said.

Some Taliban may have had enough of fighting, however, Afghan leaders and some foreign officials suggest.

``There are different groups of Taliban,`` Mullah Habibullah Akhund, a former logistics commander in the Taliban defense ministry, said in an interview. ``Some are fighting, and some, like me, are waiting to see what the government will do. If they make an Islamic government in Afghanistan, then it will be O.K.``

Hajimal Zhrak, a former employee of Afghanistan`s agriculture ministry and one of the elders of the refugee population in Quetta, said, ``People support the Taliban but they do not support the attacks.``

His tribe, which has long provided a base of support for the anti-American rebel leader Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, met recently and decided to withdraw their support for him since it would drive away reconstruction projects from their districts.

A United Nations official said he had been approached by former Taliban who wanted to return to Afghanistan if they could be assured they would not be arrested. They would leave Pakistan because there they are under pressure to join the fight against Mr Karzai`s government.

Mr. Karzai has made a point in stressing that former Taliban are free to return home as long as they come in peace. But many of the regional commanders and governors, who came to power after ousting the Taliban, do not have the same sympathy, and warn that in their view, the Taliban have only one goal: to overthrow the government.

Pakistani opposition figures — who often accuse the country`s establishment, including the president, the army and the secret service, of supporting the resurgent Taliban — warned that the problem needs to be tackled at its source, that is, in these border areas, including Quetta. ``America is in for big trouble in Afghanistan unless you remove the source,`` warned one influential editor, who declined to give his name.

Habib Jalib Baloch, a former senator and leader of the Baloch National Party, said, ``America should have selected to crush Al Qaeda and the Taliban in Pakistan, rather than go to war in Iraq.`` He said he was sure that the Taliban leader, Mullah Muhammad Omar, and his top commanders were all in Pakistan, protected by their links to the Pakistani establishment.

``You need to cut the funding,`` he said. ``You will not kill them with a hammer. You must cut the funding and the connection.``

tahmed:
I haven`t read the Vedas, either in original or in their various translations. Can`t even name all of the Vedas. But I know that they do involve invocation (worship) of various gods like Sun and Fire.
But I am more half-way through reading the Urdu translation of the Quraan and have already seen repeated references asking momins to reject anything which involves God having partners (sharkat). So, to repeat an overly used expression at Chowk, you are an intelligent and decent man but your claim to be a good momin will take some convincing.

dost mittar #357 I dont reject the Vedas. I just said that I have not read them the way I have read the Quran. Indeed, as a muslim it is my belief that the Quran is merely the Arabic version of the same message that has been sent earlier in other languages (the Quran itself says this). So, by no means do I reject the Vedas, and hope one day to read them.
I dont think it was a good idea to rename Lyallpur as Faisalabad. Lyall at least lived and worked there. King Faisal merely contributed money from his easy earnings from oil revenues. The renaming was merely Bhutto`s way (I am sure it was Bhutto) of flattering Faisal. Islamabad was chosen after a public announcement of a competition for names for the new capital by Ayub Khan`s government. The name Islamabad doe not bother me since at least it is not there to ingratiate a financier. However, I think it is demeaning of religion to drag it into public life as has been done in Pakistan. Religion should be an individual and personal thing, not something you play politics with. While religion was a convenient thing for the creation of pakistan, the fact is that Pakistan no longer needs the religious argument for its continued existence.
Like all countries, Pakistan is there because it has been there for long enough. There is no ``natural`` basis for ANY nation state. They have emerged through historical events, and the consensus is to maintain current boundries, which are eroding anyway due to economic and technological factors.
It is time we Pakistanis realized that we no longer need Islam to justify our existence, and separated religion from politics.

tahmed:
You misunderstood me. Vedas are religious scriptures and, as a muslim whether Indian or Pakistani, it is quite appropriate for you to reject them.
But we (at least I) are talking about culture and identities, not religion. I find Pakistanis naming their cities as Islamabad and Faislabad, but not Eienteinabad or Aristotleabad, let alone Poruspur or Chanakabad. It is quite clear what they want to identify with. And I dont even see too much wrong with it either (just calling a spade a spade!); what is the use of having a country in the name of a religious identity and then not promoting it?

bbabu #353 you write ``Indian nationalism does not exist the way French, German, Japanese does. It is little more than a composite culture like Slavs, Arabs.``
I have no problem with the concept of a shared culture and history, as part of the composite culture of the subcontinent. Indeed I think it is healthy for Pakistanis and Indians to have a sense of this shared culture, and I hope that once the intergovernment relations improve one day it will be easier for people to become aware of this broader culture that both India and Pakistan share.
This concept of a composite culture of the subcontinent is in fact quite complementary with the concept of the broader culture and human history that all mankind shares (the point I was arguing with dost mittar below). Thus, I can belong to the Panjabi culture, the Pakistani culture, the Indian subcontinent culture, and the worldwide culture all at the same time. It is not an either/or proposition. One can feel a sense of belonging to all of the above levels of culture.

dost mittar #354 I think bbabu (#354) is saying that he has heard some Pakistanis claim to be inheritors of the Indus Valley Civilization. So, if you dont believe me, if you reject Pakistan tourist websites as being geared to foreigners, I hope you will believe bbabu. :-)

In fact, what bbabu heard from Pakistanis is something I have heard often in Pakistan. Like all people, we identify with the location we have grown up in. So, it is only natural for Pakistanis to identify with the Indus Valley Civilization. Similarly, being a Panjabi, I am sure I had hindu ancestors. However, the fact is that having grown up as a muslim it is only natural for me to focus on the Quran and on muslim traditions then, for example, than on the Vedas which my distant ancestors may well have held as dear as my grandparents and parents held the Quran. This too is only natural, and I dont see anything wrong here. This brings me back to my original point: we should appreciate ALL cultures, and consider ourselves to be inheritors of the achievements of all mankind. It is only a matter of chance that we are born in Pakistan or India or wherever.

tahmed # 346

``India met Asia 55 million years ago, following its separation from the Gondwanaland land mass and drifting north. The first hominids evolved around 7 million years ago, and the first modern humans (cro-magnons) evolved a mere 30,000 years ago. Hope this clears up the confusion you seem to be having.``

okay everyone are invaders by your definition

You write ``This is inspite of the fact 95% of Muslims are of same genes of Hindu neighbors. `` I think it is time to forget about this preoccupation with ``Indian genes`` (every third Indian poster seems to be obsessed by it, and I suspect it has to do with Indian nationalism - it certainly has no basis in reality). ALL humanity shares the same basic genes. Differences exist. But differences EVEN between individual humans, to the extent they exist, are greater than differences between humans in any community - even dravidians do not all possess the same genes. The greatest diversity is in fact WITHIN africa.

when I mean Indian genes most of us can trace our ancestors to a common family in ancient India. Ancestry would be more appropriate word. Both Hindus and Muslims follow a lot of our ancestor customs.

Indian nationalism does not exist the way French, German, Japanese does. It is little more than a composite culture like Slavs, Arabs. Most Indians live under Indian Union banner. It is not true for Slavs, Arabs. It is a superposition of individual sub-nationalisms. It is encompassing by nature which can be perceived as threatening by Pakistanis. It has more practical and tangible meaning and imp[act than Islamic ummah. I have not meet enough Pakistanis to comment on the state of Pakistani nationalism.

You are right Pathans and Baluchis are more in common with Iranians and Afghans than rest of Pakistan. I should have excluded them from the discussion.

tahmed32 # 350

Pakistanis are in awkward position on this subject with good reason.
Personally I don`t care about this topic. But I notice with some amusement the explanation of Pakistani historians as to why Qasim, Ghori, Ghazni and Abdali invaded India. They find it hard to call a spade a spade. It is always some weird justification.

I have seen some Pakistanis emphaize themselves as inheritors of Indus Valley civilization. I doubt modern Pakistanis have anything in common with the civilization.

Pakistani can make a legitmate historical claim to the legacy Mughals and Sultanates of Delhi. Unfortunately the most of territorry, capital Delhi and most of the relics of their empire are in modern day India.

At least the Egyptians can claim they have the same name for the state like the Pharoahs did. Their modern capital Cairo is near ancient capital of Alexandria.

tahmed:
Tourism literature is for foreigners (mostly non-muslims) interested in exploring Pakistan and not for the locals. If I had a penny for Pakistanis who go to visit the ancient sites promoted by the Pakistan tourism deptt, I would be a very poor man, indeed! And if you started receiving pennies at the number of Pakistanis at Chowk and elsewhere who write with pride about their Islamic heritage, culture, civilization, etc., you would be a rich man, but not if you started counting their celebration of human achievement. We are talking here about identities, of course, i.e, what makes us, us. But we have gone around this muberry bush before, haven`t we?

Sherdil,

I will look forward to your flow of thoughts in form of an article on this ezine. I see where you are going with incorporating the current affairs, but I feel that should be Part II. Don`t put everything in one bucket. Let the mind contemplate on a lot that you wrote in a very sweet and simple fashion.

Part II can follow later.

Regards.

dost-mittar #349 I suppose I would qualify, per your grouping, as one of those muslims who take pride in human civilization. However, I am not doing this to AVOID identification with the Indian civilization, as you indicate. I think it is rather silly to take pride in just one culture as if it was one`s own achievement. Thus, to take the case of Indian achievements: Individuals responsible for past achievements (in math, architecture and so forth) are dead and gone. Those now living can only admire and marvel at these achievements, regardless of which part of the world they took place. However, to bask in the reflected glory of such past achievements is the sign of a very immature man or woman in my view. And once in a while you will see someone pop up on chowk to do exactly this.

As for your concern that Pakistanis disassociate themselves from Indian achievements and look towards muslim achievements, I suppose that is true for some people (after all, we have our geniuses too who like to bask in such reflected glory). However, if I had a penny for every time I have pointed out on chowk when someone from India brings up the issue that Pakistanis are in fact very proud of their pre-Islamic heritage and have pointed them for example to the Pakistan Government Toursim page if they dont believe me...if I had a penny for every time this was done, those pennies would have added up to a few dollars by now.

tahmed, bbabu:
The big difference between Hindus and most muslims (not all) is not that the first are necessarily the original inhabitants and the second came from outside. The difference really is that those who came before the muslims, whether huns, scythians, greeks, dravidians, aryans, africans or whatever do not wish to trace their ancestry to any other place except the subcontinent and take full pride in their pre-islamic civilization. Muslims (not all, again), instead, like to trace their ancestry and take pride in a civilization and culture outside the subcontinent. The moderates among them would rather avoid this awkward question altogether in this nebulous concept of tracing their origin to Africa and take pride in human civilization (why stop at Africa and why not go further down the evolution chain?).

found this on another bulletin board paknews.com


Dear Editor,

According to the news story, the cost of the war in Pakistan is about 2 Billion Dollars. I totally disagree. The current compensation to Pakistan is totally inadequate and quote one of our Generals (Zia ul Haq) is peanuts. The cost of the war to Turkey was about 38 Billion Dollars. Based on the size of our country, and our economic situation, and the cost of human lives, the cost of the first Afghan war to Pakistani was about 120 Billion Dollars and the cost of the second Afghan war to Pakistan was about 40 Billion Dollars.

The USA and the other countries should compensate Pakistan accordingly by building six new cities, a network of Bullet Trains, a canal system to irrigate Baluchistan, three new dams, enhance the freeways, 200 new hospital and 10,000 Karachi Grammar School type of schools. This is the price of Pakistani blood.

Best Regards,

Moin Ansari

[The author is moderator for Pakistani newsgroups on internet. He is a Political Analyst and an expert on South Asia.]

Zahra Khanoom - I liked that story/mythology very much! Thanks very much for sharing it (and for the comments as well). I think that I will revise and add to the posts to make it an article, given the recent developments between India and Pakistan. There are some thoughts I`m putting together on it and hope to send it in very soon.

bbabu# 342 You write: ``I am not sure if they came to India or if the piece of land called India attached to Eurasian landmass. Anyway they are the original inhabitants. I would not call them ``invaders`` in that sense. ``
India met Asia 55 million years ago, following its separation from the Gondwanaland land mass and drifting north. The first hominids evolved around 7 million years ago, and the first modern humans (cro-magnons) evolved a mere 30,000 years ago. Hope this clears up the confusion you seem to be having.

You write ``This is inspite of the fact 95% of Muslims are of same genes of Hindu neighbors. `` I think it is time to forget about this preoccupation with ``Indian genes`` (every third Indian poster seems to be obsessed by it, and I suspect it has to do with Indian nationalism - it certainly has no basis in reality). ALL humanity shares the same basic genes. Differences exist. But differences EVEN between individual humans, to the extent they exist, are greater than differences between humans in any community - even dravidians do not all possess the same genes. The greatest diversity is in fact WITHIN africa.

Instead of genes if one talked about a shared culture, common ancestry among Panjabis and Sindhis on both sides of the border (I dont believe ou have too many Pathan or Baluch Hindus, but I could be wrong), you would be more realistic.

tahmed # 342

``The ancestors of the aborigines of Australia also came ``out of africa`` - as did the rest of humanity. Including dravidians and aborigines, and also aryans, semites, hemites, chinese, swedes, eskimos, polynesians, incas, mayans, germans, brits, sindhis, biharis, the entire zoo.``

It is true everyone came from Africa. I am not sure if they came to India or if the piece of land called India attached to Eurasian landmass. Anyway they are the original inhabitants. I would not call them ``invaders`` in that sense.

While it is true that some Hindus think of Muslims as invaders and outsiders a bigger problem is that significant number of Muslims identify themself with outsiders like Arabs, Afghans etc. This is inspite of the fact 95% of Muslims are of same genes of Hindu neighbors.

#341 by arjun_m ``Umm..cause the paki government says no trade before the ``core`` issue(translation: Kashmir) is resolved(translation: India hands Kashmir to us on a plate).``

Yes I know. Such a pity isn`t it? Automobile sector is said to be the mother industry and its growth has provided tremendous support for economic growth of the developed world in their days of struggle.

I mean how sad that we can`t drive down next door to the beaches of Goa for a vacation, and you can`t come to visit the Hunza valley, like the Brits can go to Marbella or Nice or Amsterdam. We`re both suffocating in our claustrophobia being neighbours. A pity. But there`s always hope as long as good people are there on both sides.

I have written about Kashmir on the `Voices` board.

Rgds

m`souza #335 Glad you agree with this need to see beyond one`s ``community``. I put ``community`` in quotes since it is such an arbitrary concept, and can mean different things at different times even to the same individual.

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bbabu #337 The ancestors of the aborigines of Australia also came ``out of africa`` - as did the rest of humanity. Including dravidians and aborigines, and also aryans, semites, hemites, chinese, swedes, eskimos, polynesians, incas, mayans, germans, brits, sindhis, biharis, the entire zoo.
And once early groups of people left Africa, they went northwest, north and northeast. Some came thus came to India, thereby becoming the first invaders of India. And then new invaders came and beat up on the older invaders. And so on through the ages. And thus Ghauri and his friends were merely the last in a long succession of invaders.
As such, every single individual in the subcontinent is the descendant of ``invaders``. And now the time has come for to put an end to such violence. That is the only point I was making.

312 by arjun_m “another badly needed clue...

Which browser did you use to post your message? Going by the web statistics, there`s a 90% chance you used Internet Explorer. Have you ever used the pre 4.x version of IE?..the version when Netscape was king..

I could post a LOT of horror stories about IE if you want me to”

Okay the point is taken and the analogy understood. So The Tata Indica is better engineered now as some other posts have also indicated, but the Petrol version. Fine. So the Diesel version failed. Never mind. I’m sure Telco will fix that as well. At-least you have 100% indigenous technology in the automobile industry. If the Ambassador can’t come back, maybe Telco will bring out a spacious Sedan in its place for that particular market segment who need leg room in the back seat. The Chauffeur driven market.

I would still prefer to ride in an indigenously manufactured
Car, whether Petrol or Diesel, made in Pakistan or India. If India has a developed industry in automobiles, why not ship some of them across the border so we can kick the Toyotas and the Hondas out. I looked at the prices and a Tata Indica Car sells for Indian Rs 370,000 or thereabouts in India. The same kind of car costs upwards of Rs 500,000 here. Just imagine if India has an advanced automobile industry, Pakistan doesn’t have to import kits to assemble. Also remember Pakistan was assembling 6 cylinder Dodge Darts in the 60’s. So we can cooperate. We have the technology as well. And the tariffs can be worked out.

Wishful thinking? I think not. As I wrote on another board and copy/pasted here “In any event, now that Vajpai and the Pakistani PM (now Jamali) are on a mutual flirtation course again, let the process continue. I wish there would be a thaw on Chowk as well between the Indian/Pakistani interactors. After all, some of us may even be opinion leaders in our respective countries.

Rgds

tahmed32 #332

`` Even the Dravidians (they came from Africa, just like Europeans, Chinese, and every other people on earth).``

The Dravidians have more in common with Aborgines of Australia than the Negroes race.

zeemax # 310

I have been a passenger in a friend`s Tata Indica. I went around in the cities and highways. I will say that it is much better car than the cars of the 1970`s and 1980`s. I have been equally impressed with the Hyundai Santro. From personal experience liberalization has worked quite well in auto, cement and textiles sectors.

Hamidm ji

You are The Best ! Your Language, Words, Logic etc. and then the final product! Truly exhilrating!

Thanks and Regards
Horrible Hindu

#333 by tahmed32 on May 2, 2003 2:03am PT
``The poor man in Chennai and the poor man in Lahore has more important things to worry about - like the next meal``

How noble this thought is..
And this makes tahmed a better Muslim than the rest of people here who love only thier own community.. as charity in Islam should not be centred around helping only muslims..

#334 by tahmed32 on May 2, 2003 2:03am PT
``To this I would only add that there is far, far more good in India than Ashwariya (democracy, Gandhian ideals even though they are in retreat nowadays, a rich history and culture that we share). ``

Of course, who cares for these beauty queens although most of the Indian beauties have brains too (so they say). Anyway..Aish keeps fighting with Salman or is it the other way around?

Romair#323
``Take the good that comes from India (Madhuri and Ashwariya)``
Isn`t this what ghazanavis and ghauris did? Le plus ca change......

Romair: For once I agree with you when you say ``Take the good that comes from India (Madhuri and Ashwariya) and keep the bad out (Indian threats and attacks).``

To this I would only add that there is far, far more good in India than Ashwariya (democracy, Gandhian ideals even though they are in retreat nowadays, a rich history and culture that we share). As for the Indian threats (or more accurately, rantings of politicians like Advanis), Pakistan has the means to ensure they dont turn their dreams of overrunning and humiliating Pakistan (as I have no doubt Advani and plenty of other individuals in India would love to do) and that is enough. One day this cold war will end, and the ``bad`` that you see in India will also dissapear.

Also agree with you when you say that differences of opinion per se are a healthy thing.

d`souza #359 I agree with your opening sentence, and it proves that you are a very perceptive and insightful person. ;-)

On genes: I have heard of HUMAN genes, but did not realize that there was such a thing as Indian genes. But seriously, I think we should stop thinking in terms of Indian vs. non-Indian. Ghauri and party were invaders in the past few centuries only. Go further back in history, and EVERYBODY invaded India. Even the Dravidians (they came from Africa, just like Europeans, Chinese, and every other people on earth).
And if we look at the future, no one is going to be invading anyone else. That was a phase in human development that started with tribal warfare, contined with kingships, but starts to die out under democracies and with human development. India and Pakistan will realize this sooner or later.

hamidm #322 The India Pakistan confrontation (between the governments, or between people on chowk) is a rich man`s game.

The poor man in Chennai and the poor man in Lahore has more important things to worry about - like the next meal. To call a starving child or a widowed woman trying to keep body and soul together, or a schoolchild with dreams of making a life for himself or herself, or a young man doing odd jobs on the street, an enemy simply because he/she happens to be on the other side of the border requires, I think you will agree, an incredible stretch to the imagination. I quote again from my favorite philospher, Pogo: ``We have met the enemy, and he is us``.

Just forgot to mention the source of the story! It was an excerpt from the book, ``Leadership Wisdom from The Monk Who Sold His Ferrari`` by Robin Sharma. Since it was randomly but enthusiastically typed therefore the typos are justified.

Thanks.

Let us change track again and get the ``khujli ridden creature`` - Urstruly here.
Oye urstruly,
read what your ex-airchief Ashgar Khan says at http://www.dawn.com/weekly/dmag/dmag2.htm

``Yes. We must confess we made a lot of mistakes. The first mistake was made when Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel suggested that Pakistan take Kashmir and India get the state of Hyderabad, and Pakistani leaders turned it down. It is on record. Ultimately, we lost both. Then Sheikh Abdullah wanted to meet the Quaid-i-Azam before Partition, but it did not materialize. When Kashmir had still not acceded to India, we started an operation there. Let us forget about the past. Let us start afresh. Let us retrieve the situation. ``

#323 by Romair on May 1, 2003 4:33pm PT
``Take the good that comes from India (Madhuri and Ashwariya) and keep the bad out (Indian threats and attacks).``

kitne chalaak aur `opportunist` log...just like your arabic invading ancestors...
just like mushy uncle when he takes the best out of America and gets the best aids etc...even if...iske liye mushy ko apne hi paale huey `mullahs` ke khilaaf hi kyun na jana parey...

And ...ab kya hua...madhuri aur aish ko dekh kar kya karogey..indians are ugly and dark ...paki larkian gori gori kitni haseen...so what if they are silly..but will look good with handsome pakis...indian larkian `heeng-eaters` ... odiferous, malfeasant..ugly

tahmed..u r a good person..maybe have indian genes basically and are not a descendent of invading ghauris and ghaznis like urstruly is..

Sherdil,

A sweet story that I came across in a very interesting book that I would like to share. I am currently focusing on exploring some beautifully narrated myths in Leadership Wisdom from The Monk Who Sold His Ferrari by Robin Sharma. In light of what you wrote, I thought of sharing this with since you and some others may appreciate it.

So long long time ago...far far away...I am sorry that`s not how the story begins.

It starts from....``According to Indian mythology, all people on earth were once gods. However, they began to abuse their power, so the supreme god, Brahma, decided he would take this gift away from them and hide the godhead in a place where they would never find it.

One advisor suggested it be buried deep within the ground, but Brahma did not like that idea. ``Mankind will one day dig deep enough to find it,`` he said.

Another advisor suggested it be hidden in the deepest part of the ocean. ``No, said Brahma, ``one day mankind will dive deep enough to discover it.``

Yet another advisor suggested the godhead be placed on the highest peak of the highest mountain, but Brahma replied, ``No, mankind will eventually find a way to climb to the top and take it.``

After silently thinking about it, the supreme god finally found the ideal place for the greatest of all gifts.

``Here`s the answer`` Let`s hide it within man himself. He wil never think to look there.``

Dear Urstruly,

The following question was left abandoned and was ready to break into tears. Looking at the halat`ae`zaar, I carefully extracted the concern from one of my earlier posts and wanted to bring it to your kind attention.

``So, the British taught the South Asians on how to divide and rule. Who taught ``the select Pakistanis - mostly the ones in governance`` on how to get into everyone else`s mess and overlook one`s own?``

Any kind thoughts in ``normal font`` on the above query?

PS: I do not mean to put you on the spot, but since this is your interaction board, therefore I want to respect that. And, if you do not mind I may take the liberty of boring you to death by putting forth additional questions as time permits.

Polite Wishes.

arjun #313 And last year I guess the Indian army won a great victory. After ranting and raving and sending a million man army to the border, only to be confronted with reality. But dont let me stop you from hyperventilating your complexes on chowk...

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tahmed and the dixie chicks

``THEREFORE (per your assertion) chowk posters should reflect the same hostility in their posts.``

..............nobody is saying they should reflect hostility towards indians, but for god`s sake, you don`t have to aid and abet and coddle the enemy and then brag about helping starving sadhus in chennai ......... at least say `` i support the troops who are dying on siachin everyday`` instead of going on and on about contributing to charities on the other side of the border .........do you think martin sheen would do that ?........... even he would draw the line at sending a money order to saddam hussein........ as the guys on fox would say, `` you don`t have to be a weasel to be a nice guy``.........

............. looky here, even the dixie chicks had enough sense to see the idiocy of their position .........

hamidm #317:``on the other hand, the pathetic pakis are all over the map....it doesn`t matter, but it is silly to be all over the map ............. how the heck do you guys expect anyone to take you seriously - do something, or get off the pot ........... ``

You need to speak for yourself. Everyone else in Pakistan is just fine where they are.

It`s good to have all kinds of opinions. I certainly have no interest in marching to Delhi, or anywhere else. I am not quite sure which hole you pulled that one out of. I think the BJP and the one-opinion foreign policy vis-a-vis Pakistan that Indians believe in will do far more damage to India than any Pakistani could do. So why would me, or any Pakistani, be interested in marching anywhere. I don`t know if you have ever tried it, but marching is tough work, specially in the South Asian heat.

So I am fine where I am. But if a Pakistani wants to march to Delhi, by all means, he has a right to his opinion. And if a Pakistani wants Pakistan to join back into India, hey, good for him, as well. I don`t agree with either opinion, but its much better than having just one opinion.

Its a free world. And countries with opinions, ``all over the map,`` as you so eloquently described, tend to do much better in the long run, than countries that have one govt. sponsored opinion, that everyone must follow. That is what (used to make) made America great, and USSR not so great. If the Dixie Chics are the only ones disagreeing with Bush, then I am afraid USA is on its way down. Though I have heard, ``Stupid White Men`` (no, not your autobiography - I am talking about Michael`s book) is doing record sales, so maybe there is still hope for the USA.

You should thank God that Pakistan still has people with views all over the place. As long as they don`t try to take each other out (like the maulvis and the secularatics), there is still hope for Pakistan. If Indians support any view their govt. throws at them regarding Pakistan, then I am afraid they have lost the battle, before it has started.

Pakistanis have it correct in this regard. We used to watch Indian movies while sitting on alert duty against India, in underground shelters in the military. Our priorities were definitely correct. Take the good that comes from India (Madhuri and Ashwariya) and keep the bad out (Indian threats and attacks). This is why I still have faith in Pakistan, despite all your fears.

So let the tahmads and Urstrulys (and even Hamidms) of the world speak their mind. They may not make a lot of sense on most occassions, but that is not important.

hamidm2 #317 Your post needs to be read with a violin playing mournfully in the background, to set the mood.
However, it wasnt Kashmir about which I said anything. Rather, I had questioned your assertion that BECAUSE the Indian and Pakistani governments are in a state of cold war as a matter of policy at this time, THEREFORE (per your assertion) chowk posters should reflect the same hostility in their posts. This statement is too dumb for you to make, so I said I was sure you were kidding. Right?

Since you bring up Kashmir, I will repeat what I have always said: All of Kashmir is not worth one, single life. Indian or Pakistani. I shall play the violin now as you mull over this... (if you mull over anything, that is).

zeemax:
You could have chosen any number of industries and sectors to make your point and be right, but you chose the wrong one. The liberalisation process has worked unevenly for various industries in India but if it has had a desired effect on any one industry, it would have to be the automobile sector, both cars and auto-parts.
And you are particularly wrong re. Indica, an unhappy customer`s complaint notwithstanding. The car is not only 100% Indian manufactured but it is also 100% Indian designed and engineered. Tatas gambled their entire reputation on building this car and, after some initial bugs, it seems to be winning hearts and minds in India. The Indian auto market today is perhaps one of the toughest and most competitive, with a large proliferation in the number of cars being offered and new players entering all the time and some leaving the kitchen after not being able to stand the heat, like the Daewoo motors. I used Indica a few times during my recent long trip in Indian and found it very comfortable. It is interesting to note that suzuki/maruti rents in Delhi for Rs 450 per day while the charge for Indica is Rs. 500. I was advised against using it in the hills, though, as its diesel engine might be slow in starting in the cold mornings. Having said this, I saw any number of Indicas plying on the Himachal roads.
The Indian automobile is one of the few sectors in manufacturing which has emerged as globally competitive, with suzuki increasingly using its Indian plant (I believe it is now almost totally indigenised) for exporting to other countries. But I think the true success story belongs to those manufacturing car components, with companies like Sundaram Fastener being OEM suppliers to the Big Three in Detroit.

Oh, what the heck! This thread has mutated anyway..
On the subject of semis, i have been seeing a lot of patent applications from the TI facility in bangalore. Not computer chips obviously. TI specializes in mobile chips and such. Any one know the extent of their operations in india? How significant is their design team there?

……with folks like tahmed at one end and urstruly at the other, sometimes i wish i was an indian.............

.......... i know, it is a terrible thing to say but the heeng-eaters as a nation are consistent – they might be odiferous, malfeasant and deceitful, but they are consistent ………… from the bleeding heart dost-mittar on one end to frau sadna and herr jay at the other, the horrible hindoos have a consistent position on Kashmir – it is an integral part of India and hell will have to freeze over before they part with one inch of it ………on the other hand, the pathetic pakis are all over the map – some like mullah urstruly and airman romair want to march on delhi; others like tahmed want to sit around the fire holding hands with code coolies and sing kumbaya ………… what exactly is the average paki’s position on Kashmir ?………

......... as a nation, americans have a position that texas is an integral part of the us and anyone who is caught selling cuban cigars can end up in jail ………everyone with half a brain supported the war in iraq - except for the idiotic dixie chicks and the looney hollywood crowd who should have been packed off to france...............what about the pakis ?......they want to have their smuggled paan and bollywood movies while their country is in a state of war with India .........others want to declare jihad and march off to martyrdom ............ it is idiotic to suggest that a nation with an average second grade education and the sophistication of a desert bedouin is making the right choices .........some of them are like tahmed should be sent to Chennai and bombay to take care of the poor orphans and others, like urstruly, should be packed off to mecca to await the coming of the mahdi..........

.......... i don`t really care what position we take but, for god`s sake, let`s take a position ........... i would be perfectly happy if we decided to give away all of kashmir or accepted the loc as the border or if kashmir became independent ......... it doesn`t matter, but it is silly to be all over the map ............. how the heck do you guys expect anyone to take you seriously - do something, or get off the pot ...........

Zeemax ( # 310 ) :

My father has a new Tata Indica Petrol version as opposed to the most popular diesel version. We used to have Ambassador car previously. I can tell you that I was surprised to feel the Indica ride when I last visited India on a one month vacation. It is an excellent car. My roundtrip from Hyderabad to Khammam ( 400 kms total ) was very pleasant. The baby ran constantly at 90 - 100kmph so smoothly that I was surprised. I had a very bad impression about anything made in India. I thought they are all sub standard and $uck. But this one proved me wrong. Another important thing I noticed is that it has a lot of leg room for the rear seats ... equal to 2002 Honda civic here in the US. I have a feeling that petrol versions of Indica are less noisy and run smoothly compared to diesel versions. My what I have seen on the roads and what my father told, apparantly Indica has a major market share in India. Telco really made an excellent product.

I remember, when i was a child we used to go in our Ambassador on these long trips. I hated it. It could not sustain speeds of over 85kmph for more than an hour. The engine would overheat. I always thought Ambassador car $ucked and I still stick to it.

Zeema ( #310 ) :

Visit Telco`s SUVs. Mainly Tata Safari. Made 100% in india except ofcourse the DVD and Playstation entertainment optional packages for this SUV.

http://uv.telcoindia.com/

#313 by arjun_m
+++* PML-N acting president says Musharraf danced at the airport when Nawaz returned from the US ++++

+++All the military men, including Musharraf, apologized to Nawaz Sharif for committing a grave mistake and not taking him into confidence. They humbly requested him to visit America and save them+++++

Even SNL team and late night show hosts admit ,it sucks!

yeah it did happen in f**kin dreams of Hashmi who was not even a member of Sharif`s kitchen cabinet at that time. Pakistan army and apologise to some civilian ? yeah thats gonna happen in Paksitan............... and after Musharaf`s apology and dance performance prime minister was so happy that he awarded two Nishan-e-Haider to army not because Army pressurised him to do so but on the captivating dance performance of COAS.

Now after three and half year Hashmi suddenly find his famous viagra power to tell public about dancing moves of Mushraf.

dont forget its the same Pak army who making pakistan mess and frustrating you guys enough that every time you read something stupid against it ,you start dancing . Well no blame to you thats the best Indian could do...spend whole day digging pakistani/international websites and newspaper to find something against Pakistan and post it here.

zeemax #310
It appears that your only source of information about India (and it appears even for South Asia) is google searches.
1. Indica is 100% designed and made in India. It is built by TELCO (earlier known as Tata Engineering and Locomotive Company). Normally products from TELCO (and its competitor Ashok Layland) are quite sturdy, and I agree a bit noisy. And why I am acting as an expert on these vehicles? Because once I used to work for TELCO. Noisy part of partially due to road conditions. Indian automobile companies used to put more steel in the chasis to withstand the torture from the roads (I now doubt if it is correct strategy). Goal was to make a vehicle run for a longer duration as the expense of noise etc (even at the expense of Polution ..)
Indica, however is a very good car - generally noiseless. Normally customer care is also good these days. I am surprised at poor service seen by Sudershan Jagannathan. Perhaps he was stuck with a bad piece is using newspaper route to get it replaced.

2. Tata trucks are built 100% in India.

3. ``If translated in Purchasing Power terms given the average wage/price levels in USA in Dollars and the Pakistani or Indian wage /price levels in Rupee ; a second-hand broken down Maruti or Suzuki Alto costs the same for the Indians or Pakistanis as a Mercedes for the Americans In USA.``
Kindly realise that this situation is due to stronger currency of US and larger volumes of those car manufactures. You can as well say that when translated to purchasing power, a ford escort in Japan costs same as a Mecedes for the American in USA.
Every car manufacture has to use some raw material, machines and components produced externally. A stronger dollar buys more such stuff than a weaker ruppee. And all such cost gets added to the cost of automobile. Volumes are another big factor. Design cost of a vehicle is a fixed cost. Japanese manufactures are able to spread this cost over a very large volume and can reduce overall cost of their vehicle.
Zeemax - you might be surprised - but Indian automobiles are exported to Europe, Africa, Middle east. You can buy a Bajaj scooter in USA.

4. your earlier comments on Semiconductor industry - Semiconductor industry has two large cost components - Cost of setting up a clean manufacturing plant, and cost of design. Design of high-end microprocessors and semiconductor is very complex and costly. Long term production of such chips is viable only at high volumes. A very good attempt was made in early 80`s in form of Semiconductor Complex Limited Chandigarh. It ran well for few years but Khalistani movement and later a fire broke the back of this company. Mushrooming of contraband factories in south-east asia, which could save on design cost by using stolen/copied designs, and produce bulk chips at throwaway price also didn`t help.


Enough for today.

Bye

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#297 by arjun_m
Now we’re getting somewhere. Let’s talk about the auto industry.

Ever heard of the Tata Indica? And are you saying India should go back to producing the Ambassadors?

I did a quick google on Tata Indica as I hadn’t heard of it, and this is what I came up with amongst several other similar comments, but this is undeniably the best:


“I purchased an Indica V2 in July 2001. I wish I didn’t. The car works. It runs on road. It gives pretty decent mileage per liter of diesel. That is about it. For the last year I have been struggling to get rid of the noise problem in my vehicle. All kinds of noises; Emanating from every where under the hood you can imagine- wheezing, asthmatic, screeching, rattling & squeaking. Each and every moving part sings its own tune – air conditioning fan belt, idler bearing and so on.
Concorde Motors, the dealers of this automobile in the south offers fairly good post sales service. They come when ever called to tighten the loose belts and bearings. This is no ordinary service. A fortune worth bearing, belts have been replaced. My Indica AP10Q 5775, has been to the service center at least 10 times only for this problem. They have been coming to my place every other day to tighten (even as we speak Concorde engineers are doing so) or everybody in my part of the country will know that I have started my car. They do not know how to put an end to this problem. May be I just have to sell off this vehicle. But then who will buy it?
I have tried getting in touch with TELCO head, but he is so inaccessible. The regional staff I think have tried their best but they have lot more noises to attend to.
I have spent a good portion of my savings on this real value for money car. Value for money it is indeed, for you get more noise per car than any other car.

Dr. Sudarsan Jagannathan
Plot #114-115, Satya Sai Enclave (behind Satya Sai Vihar school), Military Dairy Farm Road, Mano vikas Nagar Post, Secunderabad 500 009
Email : sjagann@hd2.dot.net.in
biocorp@satyam.net.in
: (040) 779 1789
: 98490 12147”

This is sad, if indeed it is a 100% made in India car, which I doubt. The body panels look definitely imported and the engine, if manufactured domestically, gives the results so vividly described above. If reasonable cars were made in India, I would prefer an Indian car to a Japanese one for transportation anytime for the good of our two countries. India was significantly ahead in this technology but dumped it. Perhaps it can pick it up again.

Yes you should go back to manufacturing the Ambassador, as trying to mimic Fiat Uno gives you the Indica. Believe me Ambassador was a great car. Should have developed that for cost effectiveness/mass production instead of having killed it to letting the outdated-stripped down versions of Fiats, Suzukis and the Hyundais in; the cheap stuff sold to us; likes of which noone would even look at in the developed world. This is junk thrown on us. Have you seen the versions of the SAME cars in the US? The same models but with many more accessories and better engines and interior etc. sold there at half the price. Don’t you see that Arjun_M?

The Pakistani Versions of Maruti are two, Suzuki Alto and Mehran which are popular at the low-end. As is the Hyundai Santro. Fiat Uno (Diesel)) is also here at the low-end but a flop. The Pakistani high-end Automobile Industry is dominated by Toyota and Honda who assemble upscale 1300-2000 cc petrol/diesel sedans and aren’t available without a six month booking in advance with full upfront payment. There’s so much demand for simply acceptable quality as we have no choice. It’s considered ‘luxury’ here but it isn’t. It’s ‘enough’ luxury for us lowlifes which the Japanese have determined as enough to make money from us poor people.

Real Luxury is a Rolls Royce, any model. Silver Shadow or Corniche. Next is a Mercedes 600. Then all the S’ Class Mercedes. Then the BMW’s 7 & 8 series. The Cadillac’s form the rear end of the ‘luxury’ class. The Jaguars are done with anyway since the company was taken over by Ford of all the rednecks, but these were real luxury in their own time.

The deletion (transfer of tech) was originally supposed to and mandated to progressively advance upto 70% domestic components in case of Honda and Toyota in 7 years. But the companies found an easy way out. Now they just change the body panels and headlights/tail lights to give a new look every three years and announce it as a new model. So the deletion programme turns back the clock and starts with Zero on the ‘New’ model. The engines are the same though of 1980’s vintage in case of Toyota, though Honda puts in fancy engines now with Fuel Injection and variable transmissions etc., the minimum required, to compete with the market leader, Toyota, that has brand loyalty amongst Pakistani consumers.

So Toyota is laughing all the way to the bank selling us 1980’s underpowered junk.

This is because of the loyalty created in the 60’s as it was the first Japanese car in Pakistan, great at the time because the competition at that time were the British Austin/Morris/Vauxhall, the German Opel/Volkswagen, the US 6 cylinder Dodge Dart. All of immense quality but way too expensive for a price conscious market at between Rs. 40- to 60,000. There was a Swedish Skoda selling for Rs 12,000 at the cheapest end but broke down in six months and was a failure. The Japanese Toyota was cheap, reliable, and easily available. The first Toyota cost Rs. 18,000 for good value thus the brand loyalty still persists, although the value has disappeared since then and Toyota is cashing in on the brand loyalty.

A typical Honda or Toyota costs anywhere between Rs. 9 lacs and 12 Lacs now but still always out of stock.
You must look at the comparison. Say for a little over $20,000, one can get a basic C class Mercedes 190 in USA. That’s about Rs. 12 Lacs in Pakistani terms for which one gets a Honda or Toyota which are termed compact sedans in the US. If translated in Purchasing Power terms given the average wage/price levels in USA in Dollars and the Pakistani or Indian wage /price levels in Rupee ; a second-hand broken down Maruti or Suzuki Alto costs the same for the Indians or Pakistanis as a Mercedes for the Americans In USA.

My point only was to have countries like ours to have attained as much of technological advancement and value addition before the WTO regime is fully in place, the race that both India and Pakistan have already lost. When the WTO regime is fully implemented, Tata Indica will have to go out of business as it will have to compete with fully foreign assembled inexpensive imports of, say Korea which produces the cheapest automobiles. Not even imported kits being assembled will be possible then because deletion programmes in the automobile industry are against WTO. Then you can sit back and twiddle your thumbs over the demise of Tata industries.

Are you kidding me? Try opening up a company in China. The commie government will assign you a helper who will guide you through the approvals and other red tape. I can only wish India was as open as China, letting in anyone with $$. China today makes everything from cheap toys to cell phones. If that isn`t throwing its doors open, i dont know what is.

Yes China does have a department called MOFTEC which has over-riding powers to cut through the red-tape to assist investors. But that is a one-window operation to make the foreign investors sign on the dotted line as quickly as possible before they get scared away by beurocracy. All a ploy. As I had said to someone else on one of the boards “No laurels for your naivete”

I’m not an advisor to the Pakistani Govt or anything. Though on some important forums. I’ll be very happy if I’m able to contribute anything of substance for the betterment of both our two countries.

Who’s Captain Clueless?

Rgds

Urstruly,

Thank you for not highlighting everything in bold since that was making me wonder whether or not to pay attention to your reply.

I appreciate your sincere effort in putting forth kind but provoking replies along with your limitations on my questions.

I did notice something; but I am not sure what I noticed is what you are referring to.


Sherdil,

I read 2 of your posts with interest(haven`t gotten to the 3rd one yet) and found the analogy on fire and warmth quite appealing. I think you should have submitted your posts in form of an article since they address part ii of what Urstruly brought up. There are a few overlaps, but both the context and approach are slightly different. Urstruly`s article was emitting radiation, whereas yours exuded warmth.

Take Care.

Ustruly Sahib,

My interpretation of “fanatic” as I glanced through ZahraJ’s post is … a religious person who …

- believes in killing others for blasphemy, apostasy, and adultery

- wants to wage “pre-emptive” jihad against polytheists for no reason at all ... in the name of protecting Islamic ideology

- supports imprisoning Ahmadis for “posing” as Muslims


You fanatics are now screaming for human rights … only because your enemy is mightier and carries a bigger stick.

Ustruly # 302

``If you don’t mind, I will not address the first part of your post, which deals with three issues i.e. Iraq, Afghanistan/Taliban and Human rights violations in Muslim countries, because now I am pretty bored writing about these issues. ``

????????

There are a lot of people in between the Al Qaida and your ordinary Abdul.

`` But if by fanatics you mean any Muslim then I would blame your selective judgment. A news like banning of patloons in NWFP schools makes the headlines but the recently passed Compulsory Education Act of NWFP which forces parents to get their children primary education is ignored. This act holds parents responsible for their children`s education and a parent denying his offspring education may earn him jail. Another part of this Act makes the education free until matriculation. This doesn`t make news. ``

I will like to see how pouplar the MMA is when they enforce these laws. BTW health care in Cuba is ``free`` for it is worth.

`` By the way they also set up madrassas all around the country voluntarily to educate poor but this doesn`t qualify as education as per your standards. ``

Show me statistics on how well students from madrassas do.

`` At the risk of giving you a heart attack allow me to break this to you that according to a report published in 2002 GOP has not opened a single high school in whole country since 1991. ``

It is hard to open schools when the military is monopolizing all resources, supplying Taleban/Jihadis of all forms.


`` Example? Even Saddam Hussain didn`t set his oil wells on fire. However, Taliban did destroy artifacts in bamyan (which does not count as infrastructure) because they were subjected to a slow genocide through hunger by UN. What do you expect? ``

The UN imposed an arms embargo on Afghanistan. They supplied a lot of food aid to Afghans. Cannot blame the UN when the Taleban refused to allow food supplies to refugees.

hamidm

so should we figure out ways to open new schools or just scrap the whole idea of educating our kids, just because your political opponents are not only proposing it but as a matter of doing something about it?

hamidm #299 So, you are saying that although you think the Pakistan-India cold war is not a good idea, since it is government policy citizens on both sides must not do things that benefit the other side. Please tell me you are kidding. This point is dumb, and I think you are smarter than that. There are enough people on chowk who chant their respective government`s positions on Kashmir on chowk already, and I hope you are not leaning towards joining them.

As for bleeding heart liberals giving money to charity, in fact people of all political stripes give to charities. And the guys who give are generally not stupid, and by your thinking Bill Gates would be the dumbest of all giving away a hundred million for aids in Africa when he could have used it on booze. As for your friends finding God at 40 and giving up boozing, I think more likely they found their Liver. But dont let me stop you, and you go boozing with the Dalai Lama if you like. I just hope for your sake that you are not making a virtue out of necessity, incidentally.

dost mittar #291 Public opinion is indeed fickle as you say. In real life, even if people are as hostile as they appear on chowk, I really dont think people spend so much time thinking about India-Pakistan politics anyway. On chowk I think it provides something to talk about to people who have nothing else to talk about. And thankfully, there are plenty of people in both India and Pakistan who can think for themselves (and a number of them are on chowk as well - they just dont write very often) and do not have to wait for government policies to change to change their views.

urstruly says ``the recently passed Compulsory Education Act of NWFP which forces parents to get their children primary education is ignored``

............ similar acts were passed by bb and nawaz sharif - at that time the people laughed at the sheer stupidity of the whole idea ...... where are the schools that these people are supposed to send their kids ?....... most pathan kids bring home at least fifty rupees a day scavenging through the garbage dumps for paper, metal and bones ..........how are the parents supposed to live without this income? ........ the last time i checked, an afghani nan was four rupees and a one room house in the slums of peshawar was three thousand rupees a month? ..... the average wage for a day laborer is a hundred rupees and he has to supply his own shovel and pick.............and he has to send his kids to school or go to jail! ......... what nonsense!

.......... the mullahs are a bunch of charlatans who are feeding the public a line of empty promises not seen since adam was promised the garden of eden ..........the only thing that tops this is tahmed trying to help the kids in chennai ..............

Alleged Cole mastermind arrested

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (CNN) --Pakistani authorities Wednesday announced the arrests of six suspected al Qaeda members, including a man believed to have been behind the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole in Yemen.

Whalid ba Attash, also known as Tawfiq bin Attash or Khallad, was arrested in a police raid in the port city of Karachi, Pakistan`s Information Ministry said. He is also suspected of helping plan the September 11, 2001, terror attacks.

U.S. officials called the arrest ``very significant`` and believe Attash is ``very close`` to al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden. One official said Attash ``will know about future al Qaeda plans.``

Investigators say Attash is a former bodyguard of bin Laden and was the mastermind of the Cole bombing, which killed 17 U.S. sailors.

They also believe Attash met with two of the September 11 suicide hijackers and served as an intermediary between some of the hijackers and September 11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

The September 11 attacks on New York and Washington killed more than 3,000 people and triggered the U.S. war to oust al Qaeda from Afghanistan.

Pakistani authorities identified Attash as a Yemeni national and said his arrest averted a ``major terrorist attack.``

Police found 150 kilograms (330 pounds) of high explosives and a large quantity of guns and ammunition when he was arrested, the Information Ministry said.

Attash is believed to have lost a leg in combat in Afghanistan.

-- CNN National Security Correspondent David Ensor and Producer Syed Mohsin Naqvi contributed to this report.

ZahraJ # 283

If you don’t mind, I will not address the first part of your post, which deals with three issues i.e. Iraq, Afghanistan/Taliban and Human rights violations in Muslim countries, because now I am pretty bored writing about these issues. If you are interested in my views, you can check my `all` replies through my name profile, which is chowk`s new feature. However, I would like to address some other issues, which you have raised in your article:

You ask:

Out of sheer curiosity: Why aren`t the so called fanatics involved in any constructive activities in their own countries?``

You have to define the word fanatics for me first. If you mean those people who are alleged to be Al-Qaida operatives, then my answer is that I don`t know. However, I would like them to fight their fights against whoever in their own countries and not in ours.

But if by fanatics you mean any Muslim then I would blame your selective judgment. A news like banning of patloons in NWFP schools makes the headlines but the recently passed Compulsory Education Act of NWFP which forces parents to get their children primary education is ignored. This act holds parents responsible for their children`s education and a parent denying his offspring education may earn him jail. Another part of this Act makes the education free until matriculation. This doesn`t make news. By the way they also set up madrassas all around the country voluntarily to educate poor but this doesn`t qualify as education as per your standards. At the risk of giving you a heart attack allow me to break this to you that according to a report published in 2002 GOP has not opened a single high school in whole country since 1991. I didn`t see anyone of you screaming at that though.


Why are they focused on the West so much?

Because West is focused so much on them


Why do they destroy their own country`s infrastructure out of rage against the West?

Example? Even Saddam Hussain didn`t set his oil wells on fire. However, Taliban did destroy artifacts in bamyan (which does not count as infrastructure) because they were subjected to a slow genocide through hunger by UN. What do you expect?

Now, if the argument is that the West was involved in initiating all the mess in their respective countries and now it`s the wake-up time.

I think they hear you, some are more awake then the others. The argument of West initiating the whole mess, however, is correct.


Muslim countries should stop boasting about their natural resources and nuclear power stuff. There is much more to it. First of all there is no unity and no strength.

There is no unity, but that should make you happy; shouldn`t it? On the other hand I see you complaining. On one hand you deplore the concept of Ummah and then you complain why there isn`t unity? These are two mutually exclusive things. Either you support the concept or you don’t. If you don’t then you shouldn`t pussyfoot around unity etc, You have to make up your mind.

Irony**2 is that two different sects belonging to the same religion cannot live under the same roof. There is way too much hatred.

This myth that was perpetuated since ever has been proven wrong. In Pakistan not two but 6 different sects have formed coalition and they pursue the common goal. They are the only one demanding a constitution and un-compromised democracy in country. But nothing pleases you? In Iraq Sunni and Shia hold Qura`n over there heads together and demand an Islamic state and are butchered mercilessly in front of the whole world (AlFlooja). This proves the myth wrong.



Before you go out and curse others, at least acknowledge your own shortcomings for they will lae-doobo-fy you.

First of all I don’t curse and second, I have actually done something but again you didn`t notice. Selective judgment.

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tahmed mian,

.......there are also bleeding heart liberals who give away millions to save fat whales and gaudy butterflies while children are starving twenty miles away in the inner city........there is no end to stupidity............all this talk about love, peace and brotherhood between the “ordinary” people on both sides of that miserable border sounds good, but it means nothing until the governments decide to bury the hatchet ........bollywood actors and paki expats in california are like the Dixie chicks – they can say whatever they want, it is not going to change diddly........like I said, try making a trip to cuba or buy a cohiba in the us ......... think about it – the differences between cuba and the us are a lot sillier than the dispute between India and Pakistan ( they say it is an ideological difference of opinion!)………

.........this does not mean that I think Kashmir is worth killing or dying over .........heck, I can’t think of anything that is worth dying for – other than single malt whiskey and my kids ........but while this state of undeclared war exists between the pathetic pakis and the horrible hindoos, it is incumbent upon all of us to abide by the rules of the cold war – no shan masalas for the Indians, and no tilda basmati for the pakis........i will be the first one to admit that I break my own rule almost every Friday by going out drinking with the enemy – but that is because all my paki friends turned forty and discovered god ....... after all, forty is a magical age ..........

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Oh well .. Sorry for the late response.

#242 by arjun_m “Chips are designed and engineered in India. Intel is also going to setup a chip plant in India..

Guess you missed my point. I obviously meant, “Indigenously developed technology”. If Intel brings its technology and uses India’s cheap labour, what good does that do for India for technical advancement ? The technology is still Intel’s and will remain so. For example how many chip plants does Intel have in Taiwan or Korea? Leave aside Japan. The answer is Nil. And still Taiwan is the market leader in inexpensive computer peripherals as well as almost pushed HP and Compaq out of the laptop business with their indigenous brands.

You see, When India was producing those 50’s model Austin shaped vehicles (I forgot what they’re called), it was better. They were good and solid though only outdated in body design. I have sat in one of them and thought these were surprisingly spacious and a comfortable ride. India saved money on modifying design moulds for decades with these vehicles but at-least, as far as I know, these were 100% made in India. Now, you have these tinny Marutis with perhaps a 70% imported kit being assembled, with just the seats and rubber parts manufactured locally. Has that helped India technologically? Wake up my friend.
There never was a chip manufacturing industry in India…

Oh yes there was, around mid nineties ! Perhaps small but existed nevertheless. Substandard though. I was myself stuck with made-in-India Ram once. Had to throw it out.

Are you kidding me? Are Cell Phones high-tech enough for you? What about the latest GPS enabled cell phones? And China didnt get there by locking foreign industry out..It got there by throwing the door wide open…

China doesn’t let anyone in unless the foreigners commit on transfer of technology. I’m not sure though if your statement is correct in advanced cellphone technology developed in China. Most of the high-tech items (and there aren’t many) which china produces are foreign companies manufacturing in China. But China will extract the technology out of them. The example of cellphones isn’t really a good example because cellphones are just toys with ordinary technology which can be copied easily. The thing with this kind of low-cost consumer technology is “Marketing” at which a small country like Norway, with a much smaller technological base than countries like the Netherlands, Britain, Japan and the USA, beat everyone else. Nokia of-course.

Throwing the ‘doors’ wide open is akin to a prostitute throwing her legs wide open, which India is doing. That’s the reason China does not throw its doors wide open unconditionally.

your RAM industry in Pakiland example is flawed because Pakiland doesnt have the technological knowhow to make RAM chips. The only way Pakistan can make RAM