Baghdad Lullaby II
Bina Shah April 11, 2003
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#54 Posted by tahmed32 on April 17, 2003 8:50:44 pm
hmmmmmmm... just for that i shall start a chowk argument somewhere.
Any flavor you prefer? Our Argument du Jour is Iraq. Chef`s Special is US seeks World Domination. The House Specialty of Course is Kashmir. If all else fails, I can go find Jay somewhere and remind him to take his pills.
And do you want fries with it?
Any flavor you prefer? Our Argument du Jour is Iraq. Chef`s Special is US seeks World Domination. The House Specialty of Course is Kashmir. If all else fails, I can go find Jay somewhere and remind him to take his pills.
And do you want fries with it?
#53 Posted by scout on April 17, 2003 4:49:45 pm
tahmed32 #52,
t-bhai always looks cute when he`s interacting, especially when he gets agitated.....and dont` even get me started on you.......you look MAHA-cute when u interact, and when you argue, u look like WOW
happy?
t-bhai always looks cute when he`s interacting, especially when he gets agitated.....and dont` even get me started on you.......you look MAHA-cute when u interact, and when you argue, u look like WOW
happy?
#52 Posted by tahmed32 on April 17, 2003 1:50:38 pm
scout #51 And temporal?? Do you think he looks cute too when he fights??
#49 Posted by sadna on April 15, 2003 9:41:23 pm
temporal
I see no connection between your reply and my post. Evidently we donot speak the same language either. I have no interest in interacting further, thanks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For anyone who cares :
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/16/international/worldspecial/16MUSE.html?pagewanted=1
Experts` Pleas to Pentagon Didn`t Save Museum
The plunder last week of Iraq`s national museum, one of the Middle East`s most important archaeological repositories, occurred despite repeated requests to the Pentagon by experts and scholars that the site be protected when American troops entered Baghdad.
A senior Pentagon official said the military had never promised that the buildings would be safeguarded.
``We could never guarantee ahead of time the safety of a single building,`` said Dr. Joseph Collins, a deputy assistant secretary of defense for humanitarian and peacekeeping operations.
But experts, including McGuire Gibson, a professor at the Oriental Institute at the University of Chicago, said that they believed the military had understood the need to protect the buildings against looting as well as bombing.
``I thought we had understandings,`` Dr. Gibson said today as he prepared to leave for a meeting of antiquities experts in Paris called by Unesco to assess the damage from the museum`s destruction. ``I didn`t expect that we would stand by and let them loot the museum and burn the ministries.``
The experts met with Pentagon officials as early as January to warn that the impending war could pose grave risks to Iraq`s archaeological treasures. They renewed the warnings in e-mail messages in the days before the American attack on Baghdad began, some of the experts said today.
Representatives of the American Council for Cultural Policy, a New York-based group of museum officials and prominent art collectors, also met with Defense and State Department officials in the months before the war, and said they were encouraged by the meetings.
At the Pentagon, defense officials said that the museum had in fact been put on the American military`s no-target list in response to the scholars` warnings, and that the military had refrained from bombing it.
But in an e-mail message, Mr. Collins said that ``in no case`` had his office instructed military commanders to provide protection for the museum or library.
``We leave such decisions to commanders on the scene,`` he said.
In interviews, the experts said their warnings had addressed the dangers posed by looting as well as aerial attack.
Dr. Gibson, a leading expert on Iraqi antiquities, said he met in January with Mr. Collins, whose office was responsible for helping determine which sites could not be bombed.
But Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said at a Pentagon briefing today that the protection of the museum had been assigned less importance than the combat operations that were continuing sporadically in Baghdad last Thursday and Friday while the museum was being looted.
``It`s as much as anything else a matter of priorities,`` General Myers said when asked whether the military had made a mistake in failing to defend the museum.
In other parts of Iraq, American forces followed the military`s plan to to secure oil wells, dams and other critical sites ahead of the troops` main advance, and in Baghdad they secured at least the oil ministry and kept looters at bay.
But they did not try to guard the National Museum either before or during most of the two days after Iraq`s own security apparatus collapsed, defense officials acknowledged today. In interviews in Baghdad, museum officials said American troops came only once — for a half- hour at midday on Thursday. ..``
(its a two page writeup)
I see no connection between your reply and my post. Evidently we donot speak the same language either. I have no interest in interacting further, thanks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For anyone who cares :
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/16/international/worldspecial/16MUSE.html?pagewanted=1
Experts` Pleas to Pentagon Didn`t Save Museum
The plunder last week of Iraq`s national museum, one of the Middle East`s most important archaeological repositories, occurred despite repeated requests to the Pentagon by experts and scholars that the site be protected when American troops entered Baghdad.
A senior Pentagon official said the military had never promised that the buildings would be safeguarded.
``We could never guarantee ahead of time the safety of a single building,`` said Dr. Joseph Collins, a deputy assistant secretary of defense for humanitarian and peacekeeping operations.
But experts, including McGuire Gibson, a professor at the Oriental Institute at the University of Chicago, said that they believed the military had understood the need to protect the buildings against looting as well as bombing.
``I thought we had understandings,`` Dr. Gibson said today as he prepared to leave for a meeting of antiquities experts in Paris called by Unesco to assess the damage from the museum`s destruction. ``I didn`t expect that we would stand by and let them loot the museum and burn the ministries.``
The experts met with Pentagon officials as early as January to warn that the impending war could pose grave risks to Iraq`s archaeological treasures. They renewed the warnings in e-mail messages in the days before the American attack on Baghdad began, some of the experts said today.
Representatives of the American Council for Cultural Policy, a New York-based group of museum officials and prominent art collectors, also met with Defense and State Department officials in the months before the war, and said they were encouraged by the meetings.
At the Pentagon, defense officials said that the museum had in fact been put on the American military`s no-target list in response to the scholars` warnings, and that the military had refrained from bombing it.
But in an e-mail message, Mr. Collins said that ``in no case`` had his office instructed military commanders to provide protection for the museum or library.
``We leave such decisions to commanders on the scene,`` he said.
In interviews, the experts said their warnings had addressed the dangers posed by looting as well as aerial attack.
Dr. Gibson, a leading expert on Iraqi antiquities, said he met in January with Mr. Collins, whose office was responsible for helping determine which sites could not be bombed.
But Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said at a Pentagon briefing today that the protection of the museum had been assigned less importance than the combat operations that were continuing sporadically in Baghdad last Thursday and Friday while the museum was being looted.
``It`s as much as anything else a matter of priorities,`` General Myers said when asked whether the military had made a mistake in failing to defend the museum.
In other parts of Iraq, American forces followed the military`s plan to to secure oil wells, dams and other critical sites ahead of the troops` main advance, and in Baghdad they secured at least the oil ministry and kept looters at bay.
But they did not try to guard the National Museum either before or during most of the two days after Iraq`s own security apparatus collapsed, defense officials acknowledged today. In interviews in Baghdad, museum officials said American troops came only once — for a half- hour at midday on Thursday. ..``
(its a two page writeup)
#48 Posted by DRUMZ on April 15, 2003 9:10:13 pm
Yawn...
I am convinced that if they ever catch saddam, he should be forced to read an internet debate between temporal and sadna.... Like really folks, who gives a sh1t about this topic, my god.
Id rather read a dictionary then this chowk crap.
I am convinced that if they ever catch saddam, he should be forced to read an internet debate between temporal and sadna.... Like really folks, who gives a sh1t about this topic, my god.
Id rather read a dictionary then this chowk crap.
#47 Posted by faisaluno on April 15, 2003 9:08:42 pm
ferozk:
turks captured athens in 1458 and ruled over it for nearly four centuries. in between, athens was briefly captured by venetians who ruled over it for a couple of years from 1687 to 1688. during the course of the battle for capture of athens in 1687, the venetians layed a siege to the acropolis and lobbed a shell on the parthenon knowing full well that the building was being used as a gunpowder storage center by the turks. the resulting explosion damaged the building beyond repair.
i guess much like the americans, the venetians would probably have blamed the turks for the destruction because of the use of the building as a ``military asset`` by the turks. (this point is purely a conjecture on my part).
#46 Posted by temporal on April 15, 2003 8:10:30 pm
sadna #45:
oh!...so that is what it is!...you think i have included you in the `knee-jerk` (read bigots) brigade?... no i did not!...so when i deride the bigots you take it upon you to include yourself?
...have explained them before...the knee-jerkers are from both sides...unabashed bigots...who re-hash the same tune no matter what the subject...
(now, if for reasons known to yourself you consider yourself as one, it is your prerogative!)
...t
oh!...so that is what it is!...you think i have included you in the `knee-jerk` (read bigots) brigade?... no i did not!...so when i deride the bigots you take it upon you to include yourself?
...have explained them before...the knee-jerkers are from both sides...unabashed bigots...who re-hash the same tune no matter what the subject...
(now, if for reasons known to yourself you consider yourself as one, it is your prerogative!)
...t
#45 Posted by sadna on April 15, 2003 5:49:14 pm
temporal
`` in replyt to specifics raised in my post there you resorted to your usual word-twisting, tunnel-visioned diatribes``
Moralizing again. I don`t want to know temporaljee, but who the heck are you to decide that what I say is `word-twisting and tunnel visioned`? I don`t share your values, your views or value judgements, so what? Thats a crime now?
Recently you have called me several things because I wouldnot agree with you, on IDRF, on Jamat Ul Fuqra, on Farzana Versey`s views. But did you even make an effort to discuss IDRF, Jamat Ul Fuqra or Farzana`s views? No. Namecalling is enough.
``...i have addressed you...sadnaji...as an individual...i do not make the error of taking you as a representative of all the indians i come across``
Not me perhaps, but then what the heck is the kneejerk brigade?
`` in replyt to specifics raised in my post there you resorted to your usual word-twisting, tunnel-visioned diatribes``
Moralizing again. I don`t want to know temporaljee, but who the heck are you to decide that what I say is `word-twisting and tunnel visioned`? I don`t share your values, your views or value judgements, so what? Thats a crime now?
Recently you have called me several things because I wouldnot agree with you, on IDRF, on Jamat Ul Fuqra, on Farzana Versey`s views. But did you even make an effort to discuss IDRF, Jamat Ul Fuqra or Farzana`s views? No. Namecalling is enough.
``...i have addressed you...sadnaji...as an individual...i do not make the error of taking you as a representative of all the indians i come across``
Not me perhaps, but then what the heck is the kneejerk brigade?
#44 Posted by temporal on April 15, 2003 4:11:11 pm
#40 by sadna:
temporal #36
``when last i confronted you with specifics you resorted to prevarication and twisting or putting words in another`s mouth...``
Huh? You are the liar here, temporaljee. I replied to your post on unplugged almost immediately in #68 to which I got no reply.
sadnaji...this is one more example of either being comprehension-challenged, or tunnel visioned, or prevaricative... i never claimed you did not reply... in replyt to specifics raised in my post there you resorted to your usual word-twisting, tunnel-visioned diatribes...even the quotes you came back with supported my original assertion!...and since you so love to have the last word i leave you to your fate and machinations...
``It seems you folks donot like to take it as you dish it out.``
...i have addressed you...sadnaji...as an individual...i do not make the error of taking you as a representative of all the indians i come across...and you have admitted to this in the past...
...in this quote above it is obvious your biases and prejudices have got the better of you!...
rgds,
t
temporal #36
``when last i confronted you with specifics you resorted to prevarication and twisting or putting words in another`s mouth...``
Huh? You are the liar here, temporaljee. I replied to your post on unplugged almost immediately in #68 to which I got no reply.
sadnaji...this is one more example of either being comprehension-challenged, or tunnel visioned, or prevaricative... i never claimed you did not reply... in replyt to specifics raised in my post there you resorted to your usual word-twisting, tunnel-visioned diatribes...even the quotes you came back with supported my original assertion!...and since you so love to have the last word i leave you to your fate and machinations...
``It seems you folks donot like to take it as you dish it out.``
...i have addressed you...sadnaji...as an individual...i do not make the error of taking you as a representative of all the indians i come across...and you have admitted to this in the past...
...in this quote above it is obvious your biases and prejudices have got the better of you!...
rgds,
t
#43 Posted by ferozk on April 15, 2003 8:32:16 am
Re: faisaluno # 38
Thanks for the correction! Appreciated! By the way, any idea how the Parthenon was destoryed? My understanding was that a shell fired from a Turkish ship landed in the building and ignited the gun powder stored in the Parthenon and that is why I placed the blame on the Turks.
Ciao
Thanks for the correction! Appreciated! By the way, any idea how the Parthenon was destoryed? My understanding was that a shell fired from a Turkish ship landed in the building and ignited the gun powder stored in the Parthenon and that is why I placed the blame on the Turks.
Ciao
#41 Posted by sadna on April 14, 2003 5:42:26 pm
temporal #36
``when last i confronted you with specifics you resorted to prevarication and twisting or putting words in another`s mouth...``
Huh? You are the liar here, temporaljee. I replied to your post on unplugged almost immediately in #68 to which I got no reply.
On this board perhaps it would have been acceptable to do it like you do and ask rsaxena if he is joining the moralizer brigade. It seems you folks donot like to take it as you dish it out.
pmishra2 #33
``unintended consequences``
I don`t know about the unintended. It seems after frequent and extensive discussions about the dangers to heritage sites(including this museum which was pointed out as the most important), including the danger of looting, US archeologists even kept sending the Pentagon folks multiple email reminders.
``when last i confronted you with specifics you resorted to prevarication and twisting or putting words in another`s mouth...``
Huh? You are the liar here, temporaljee. I replied to your post on unplugged almost immediately in #68 to which I got no reply.
On this board perhaps it would have been acceptable to do it like you do and ask rsaxena if he is joining the moralizer brigade. It seems you folks donot like to take it as you dish it out.
pmishra2 #33
``unintended consequences``
I don`t know about the unintended. It seems after frequent and extensive discussions about the dangers to heritage sites(including this museum which was pointed out as the most important), including the danger of looting, US archeologists even kept sending the Pentagon folks multiple email reminders.
#40 Posted by sadna on April 14, 2003 5:42:26 pm
rsaxena #39
You donot like my posts, you donot like to read my longer posts, or whatever. Here`s the thing : so what?
You donot like my posts, you donot like to read my longer posts, or whatever. Here`s the thing : so what?
#39 Posted by rsaxena on April 14, 2003 5:04:26 pm
re: sadna #32
...there, you`re getting the hang of it...brief and to the point...good post...
...as for t, you are right about him as well....
...there, you`re getting the hang of it...brief and to the point...good post...
...as for t, you are right about him as well....
#38 Posted by Ali87 on April 14, 2003 12:55:25 pm
#15 by Bhitai on April 12, 2003 0:54am PT
yes anything for freedom especially if it is american freedom imposed on Iraqis or others. If any country had bombed US for the freedom of Backs a few decades back I wonder what would have been the response of these people.
How come no one ever thought of bombing South Africa to free the blacks from Apartheid.
Hey how about some bombing of India for the freedom of dalits.
yes anything for freedom especially if it is american freedom imposed on Iraqis or others. If any country had bombed US for the freedom of Backs a few decades back I wonder what would have been the response of these people.
How come no one ever thought of bombing South Africa to free the blacks from Apartheid.
Hey how about some bombing of India for the freedom of dalits.
#37 Posted by faisaluno on April 14, 2003 12:55:25 pm
ferozk:
just to set the record straight, turks used parthenon as a mosque and then later, as a place to store gun powder. building was actually destroyed by venetians during the siege of acropolis in 1687. later, lord elgin obtained from the turks, a firman which gave him permission to remove sculptures (friezes) that were engraved on the outside part of the temple. here is what lord byron hard to say about this:
Dull is the eye that will not weep to see
Thy walls defaced, thy mouldering shrines removed
By British hands, which it had best behoved
To guard those relics ne`er to be restored.
Curst be the hour when from their isle they roved,
And once again thy hapless bosom gored,
And snatch`d thy shrinking gods to northern climes abhorred!
Lord Byron
``Childe Harold``
elgin marbles are now one of the most popular exhibits in the british museum. not surprisingly, the greek government is demanding the return of these sculptures. the british government`s response is that greeks are incapable of looking after these sculptures and hence for the good of humanity, these sculptures must reside in the british museum. strangely enough, there were reports in some news papers that an association of antique dealers and collectors in the u.s. was asking uncle sam to remove some of the exhibits in baghdad museum precisely for the same reason. i think there is more to the theft of antiques than meets the eye. i would not be surprised to see some of these artifacts in the hands of americans later on. remember that russian`s sat on Schliemann Gold for about forty five years.
http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/news/story/0,9830,933876,00.html
US lobby could threaten Iraqi heritage
“Apparent lobbying by American art dealers to dismantle Iraq`s strict export laws has heightened fears about the looting of the country`s antiquities as order breaks down in the last stages of the war”.
#36 Posted by temporal on April 14, 2003 11:00:11 am
sadna #31:
``You sound like temporal....who go around telling people what to post.``
...please stop your tunnel-visioned lectures and diatribes...
...you keep repeating lies...and when last i confronted you with specifics you resorted to prevarication and twisting or putting words in another`s mouth...
...i have no problem with vast majority of indians or pakistanis...and certainly do not tell them what to post...
...t
``You sound like temporal....who go around telling people what to post.``
...please stop your tunnel-visioned lectures and diatribes...
...you keep repeating lies...and when last i confronted you with specifics you resorted to prevarication and twisting or putting words in another`s mouth...
...i have no problem with vast majority of indians or pakistanis...and certainly do not tell them what to post...
...t
#35 Posted by ferozk on April 14, 2003 10:15:19 am
Re: Sadna
The library of Alexanderia, was burned by the Roman legions on the orders of Julius Casear. The Mongols sacked Baghdad in the fourteenth century. The Museum of Dresden, which contained a priceless collection of European bone china, was fire bombed by the British and the BBC reported the raid over Dresden to its listeners by saying, ``today, not a single china stands in Dresden``; the Americans bombed the abbey of Monte Cassino, which was 1400 years old in 1944, and destoryed it. In the First World War, during the siege of the Belgian city of Leige, the Germans are refuted to have set fire to the city`s library and the resulting fire burned irreplaceable medieval manuscripts. The Vandals destroyed Rome. The nose of the Sphinx was shot off by the French artillery of Napoleon Bonaparte, as it was conducting target practice. The Taliban shelled and dynamited the Bamiyan Buddhas. The Croats destroyed the Mostar bridge, the most beautiful example of a single arch bridge, designed in Europe by the Ottoman Turks, during the Balkan crisis in Yugoslavia. The British destroyed and vandalized temples and mosques in India, often using their bayonettes to pry the inlaid gems out of the walls. The Arabs destroyed the Persian monuments at Perispolis and the Turks destroyed the Parthenon in Athens.
Call them Philistines or Vandals or barbarians, it makes no difference.
I agree with you and I also weep. When Hannibal was roaming the Italian countryside, destroying crops and pillaging during the Second Punic War, the frightened citizens of Rome used to cry out: ``Hannibal ad portas``. Hannibal was considered as a barbarian and the cry was, that the barbarians are at the gates! The barbarians are indeed, once more, at the gates of civilization.
Insanus omnis furere credit ceteros - Syrus
It means that every mad person thinks that every other person is mad. The thief accuses everyone else of robbery; the fornicator says we are all unfaithful and the destoryer blames everyone else for the destruction. We question each other`s patriotism, because our own patriotism is questionable. The aggressor blames the victim for the crime.
Ciao
The library of Alexanderia, was burned by the Roman legions on the orders of Julius Casear. The Mongols sacked Baghdad in the fourteenth century. The Museum of Dresden, which contained a priceless collection of European bone china, was fire bombed by the British and the BBC reported the raid over Dresden to its listeners by saying, ``today, not a single china stands in Dresden``; the Americans bombed the abbey of Monte Cassino, which was 1400 years old in 1944, and destoryed it. In the First World War, during the siege of the Belgian city of Leige, the Germans are refuted to have set fire to the city`s library and the resulting fire burned irreplaceable medieval manuscripts. The Vandals destroyed Rome. The nose of the Sphinx was shot off by the French artillery of Napoleon Bonaparte, as it was conducting target practice. The Taliban shelled and dynamited the Bamiyan Buddhas. The Croats destroyed the Mostar bridge, the most beautiful example of a single arch bridge, designed in Europe by the Ottoman Turks, during the Balkan crisis in Yugoslavia. The British destroyed and vandalized temples and mosques in India, often using their bayonettes to pry the inlaid gems out of the walls. The Arabs destroyed the Persian monuments at Perispolis and the Turks destroyed the Parthenon in Athens.
Call them Philistines or Vandals or barbarians, it makes no difference.
I agree with you and I also weep. When Hannibal was roaming the Italian countryside, destroying crops and pillaging during the Second Punic War, the frightened citizens of Rome used to cry out: ``Hannibal ad portas``. Hannibal was considered as a barbarian and the cry was, that the barbarians are at the gates! The barbarians are indeed, once more, at the gates of civilization.
Insanus omnis furere credit ceteros - Syrus
It means that every mad person thinks that every other person is mad. The thief accuses everyone else of robbery; the fornicator says we are all unfaithful and the destoryer blames everyone else for the destruction. We question each other`s patriotism, because our own patriotism is questionable. The aggressor blames the victim for the crime.
Ciao
#34 Posted by tahmed32 on April 14, 2003 10:15:19 am
pmishra2 #33 I dont want to even begin contradicting anything you said. I was just commenting on how, with the excitement of the Iraq War petering out, the usual hindu-muslim rubbish is starting with your having lobbed the first shi!tball. What a waste of bloody education you people are!
#33 Posted by sadna on April 14, 2003 8:16:42 am
rsaxena #31
If you can`t read 3 posts, use the scroll bar and stop whining. You sound like temporal and tahmed who go around telling people what to post. You know where you can stick that.
If you can`t read 3 posts, use the scroll bar and stop whining. You sound like temporal and tahmed who go around telling people what to post. You know where you can stick that.
#32 Posted by pmishra2 on April 14, 2003 8:16:42 am
#30 tahmed
Can you contradict any one of my points??? I guess not. Hence the need to characterize criticism as bigotry. I guess you are unable even to see how much your comments conform to ``type``. Most of my comments are taken from the recent UN report on Arab nations.
#27, #25 Sadna
Agreed, with folks like George W. and Rumsfeld we are dealing with deadly arrogance combined with massive ignorance. The desecration of museum in Baghdad is a tragedy for all of us. And a good example of the many unintended consequences of war. Civilians deaths are of course also in this category. We should hold the forces in Iraq to high standards as we go forward.
My own plan of action involves working for democratic ``regime change`` in the US. I think as the Bush-Rumsfeld lack of planning and long-term vision becomes obvious, more and more of the US citizenry will come to an understanding that their investment in Iraq is not being followed through appropriately. I see some signs of this already.
Can you contradict any one of my points??? I guess not. Hence the need to characterize criticism as bigotry. I guess you are unable even to see how much your comments conform to ``type``. Most of my comments are taken from the recent UN report on Arab nations.
#27, #25 Sadna
Agreed, with folks like George W. and Rumsfeld we are dealing with deadly arrogance combined with massive ignorance. The desecration of museum in Baghdad is a tragedy for all of us. And a good example of the many unintended consequences of war. Civilians deaths are of course also in this category. We should hold the forces in Iraq to high standards as we go forward.
My own plan of action involves working for democratic ``regime change`` in the US. I think as the Bush-Rumsfeld lack of planning and long-term vision becomes obvious, more and more of the US citizenry will come to an understanding that their investment in Iraq is not being followed through appropriately. I see some signs of this already.
#31 Posted by tahmed32 on April 14, 2003 6:52:09 am
pmishra: I guess the excitement over the Iraq War is over now. Mr. Mishra has tossed a tentative anti-muslim dirtball. Perhaps some desi gentleman will crawl out of from under a stone on the pakistan side and throw an anti-hindu dirtball (attention zeemax!!). Then the shi!t will start flying again.
#30 Posted by rsaxena on April 14, 2003 6:52:09 am
re: sadna
...please summarize all your posts in 1-2 sentences...thanks...
...please summarize all your posts in 1-2 sentences...thanks...
#29 Posted by rsaxena on April 13, 2003 8:47:24 pm
re: deborah
{i don`t see how my input would make any difference :-) }
...exactly...run along now...
{i don`t see how my input would make any difference :-) }
...exactly...run along now...
#28 Posted by sadna on April 13, 2003 8:47:24 pm
hamidm2 #27
I willnot wish such a fate on anyone, marauding ummah or no marauding ummah.
The rest of the world can only read about the devastation and weep. We were collectively helpless to preserve what had managed to survive for 1000s of years and what had been painstakingly recovered and preserved by multiple generations of dedicated archeologists from around the world.
US troops repeatedly used their enormous military capability to call in B52`s with thousands of pounds of bombs from 100s of miles away simply to protect them from small arms fire, but they couldnot spare a single armored vehicle or handful of Marines to prevent the ransacking of this musuem or that of a single Baghdad hospital.
I suspect George Bush has never heard of Hammurabi or the Abbasids and to him an Eyeraki is nothing but someone who is eagerly waiting to forget his barbaric past and join up with the civilisation of AngloSaxons. Its evident that for Bush and the people who planned the invasion, the ability to eat junk food at a McDonalds or to watch Hollywood-made soft-porn is the only meaningful definition of freedom and culture.
The rest of the world is not so ignorant, nor do I think the rest of the world has sold its soul (as was evident from the mention of the museum`s devastation by a prominent Indonesian leader on CNN) and IMO the US willnot be forgiven for this very soon.
I willnot wish such a fate on anyone, marauding ummah or no marauding ummah.
The rest of the world can only read about the devastation and weep. We were collectively helpless to preserve what had managed to survive for 1000s of years and what had been painstakingly recovered and preserved by multiple generations of dedicated archeologists from around the world.
US troops repeatedly used their enormous military capability to call in B52`s with thousands of pounds of bombs from 100s of miles away simply to protect them from small arms fire, but they couldnot spare a single armored vehicle or handful of Marines to prevent the ransacking of this musuem or that of a single Baghdad hospital.
I suspect George Bush has never heard of Hammurabi or the Abbasids and to him an Eyeraki is nothing but someone who is eagerly waiting to forget his barbaric past and join up with the civilisation of AngloSaxons. Its evident that for Bush and the people who planned the invasion, the ability to eat junk food at a McDonalds or to watch Hollywood-made soft-porn is the only meaningful definition of freedom and culture.
The rest of the world is not so ignorant, nor do I think the rest of the world has sold its soul (as was evident from the mention of the museum`s devastation by a prominent Indonesian leader on CNN) and IMO the US willnot be forgiven for this very soon.
#27 Posted by hamidm2 on April 13, 2003 7:31:12 pm
sadna says.......
``Medieval invaders destroyed the heritage of the conquered calling it jahiliya and irrelevant to the `new` values they brought, it seems that the US government has an exactly similar disdain for its conquered people and their heritage``
..... astagfirullah! .... are you equating the prophet muhammad, with george bush ? ..............this is just terrible - you horrible hindoos really know how to sucker punch the ummah when it down on its knees .........
........however, i must admit, old george has done a okay even without help from gabriel and god .......... although, who knows, rummy might be the archangle in disguise .........
``Medieval invaders destroyed the heritage of the conquered calling it jahiliya and irrelevant to the `new` values they brought, it seems that the US government has an exactly similar disdain for its conquered people and their heritage``
..... astagfirullah! .... are you equating the prophet muhammad, with george bush ? ..............this is just terrible - you horrible hindoos really know how to sucker punch the ummah when it down on its knees .........
........however, i must admit, old george has done a okay even without help from gabriel and god .......... although, who knows, rummy might be the archangle in disguise .........
#26 Posted by sadna on April 13, 2003 11:53:58 am
Correction to my post #25:
``Medieval invaders destroyed the heritage of the conquered calling it jahiliya and irrelevant to the `new` values they brought, it seems that the US government has an exactly similar disdain for its conquered people and their heritage.
``Medieval invaders destroyed the heritage of the conquered calling it jahiliya and irrelevant to the `new` values they brought, it seems that the US government has an exactly similar disdain for its conquered people and their heritage.
#25 Posted by sadna on April 13, 2003 11:30:03 am
pmishra2 #24
I don`t go with the Islamist cr_p. But there is still a question of Iraqi sense of sovereignty, dignity and identity. Its humiliating to have a foreign power bomb your government out of existence in the name of freedom and justice and then see this foreign power turn around and say `but we are not responsible for law and order`.
Here is a report from Washington Post which typifies the US attitude to preserving Iraqis sense of identity and heritage, preserving their lives vs preserving their oil:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15136-2003Apr12.html
At Baghdad`s Antiquities Museum
`Our Heritage Is Finished`
BAGHDAD, April 12 -- At the National Museum of Antiquities, where priceless artifacts had been wrapped in foam and secured in windowless storage rooms to protect them against U.S. bombs, an army of looters perpetrated what war did not: They smashed hundreds of irreplaceable treasures, including Sumerian clay pots, Assyrian marble carvings, Babylonian statues and a massive stone tablet with intricate cuneiform writing.
As employees returned today to survey the damage at one of the world`s greatest repositories of artifacts, they encountered devastation that defied their worst expectations. The floor was covered with shards of broken pottery. An extensive card catalog of every item the museum owns, some of which date back 5,000 years, was destroyed. A cavernous storeroom housing thousands of unclassified pieces was ransacked so badly that an archaeologist predicted it would be impossible to repair many of the items...``
--
The same report says the Iraqi oil ministery is guarded by the US Marines and their tanks but the Museum with 5000 year old artefacts was allowed to be destroyed.
All of us around the world have all lost the precious irreplaceable links to what is also our heritage, which we were told about in our classrooms. All this due to the decision of the US to go to war without accepting responsibility for the consequences. One can`t say they hadnot anticipated it, because this happened in Kosovo, too.
In any case anyone with common sense could have anticipated this. For example I wrote in January about the contrasts between Iraq and Afghanistan:
`` The US ground troops will have to sort out the chaos themselves on the ground. It will be extremely messy unlike the Afghan war lords who had tribal alliances, personal armies and local influence and can and could impose their will/peace on portions of the countryside. Once they decided to switch sides, they simply switched hats and Afghanistan was won. No such joy in Iraq.``
The US government cannot plead ignorance about these artefacts and museums. It was reported on NPR and by Robert Fisk that US academics/experts had given the US government a comprehensive list of archeological/heritage sites to protect as far back as in January.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=396743
You have to wonder, exactly what values is the US claiming to be heroically fighting for? Medieval invaders destroyed the invaders heritage calling it jahiliya and irrelevant to the `new` values they brought, it seems that the US government has an exactly similar disdain for its conquered people and their heritage.
I don`t go with the Islamist cr_p. But there is still a question of Iraqi sense of sovereignty, dignity and identity. Its humiliating to have a foreign power bomb your government out of existence in the name of freedom and justice and then see this foreign power turn around and say `but we are not responsible for law and order`.
Here is a report from Washington Post which typifies the US attitude to preserving Iraqis sense of identity and heritage, preserving their lives vs preserving their oil:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15136-2003Apr12.html
At Baghdad`s Antiquities Museum
`Our Heritage Is Finished`
BAGHDAD, April 12 -- At the National Museum of Antiquities, where priceless artifacts had been wrapped in foam and secured in windowless storage rooms to protect them against U.S. bombs, an army of looters perpetrated what war did not: They smashed hundreds of irreplaceable treasures, including Sumerian clay pots, Assyrian marble carvings, Babylonian statues and a massive stone tablet with intricate cuneiform writing.
As employees returned today to survey the damage at one of the world`s greatest repositories of artifacts, they encountered devastation that defied their worst expectations. The floor was covered with shards of broken pottery. An extensive card catalog of every item the museum owns, some of which date back 5,000 years, was destroyed. A cavernous storeroom housing thousands of unclassified pieces was ransacked so badly that an archaeologist predicted it would be impossible to repair many of the items...``
--
The same report says the Iraqi oil ministery is guarded by the US Marines and their tanks but the Museum with 5000 year old artefacts was allowed to be destroyed.
All of us around the world have all lost the precious irreplaceable links to what is also our heritage, which we were told about in our classrooms. All this due to the decision of the US to go to war without accepting responsibility for the consequences. One can`t say they hadnot anticipated it, because this happened in Kosovo, too.
In any case anyone with common sense could have anticipated this. For example I wrote in January about the contrasts between Iraq and Afghanistan:
`` The US ground troops will have to sort out the chaos themselves on the ground. It will be extremely messy unlike the Afghan war lords who had tribal alliances, personal armies and local influence and can and could impose their will/peace on portions of the countryside. Once they decided to switch sides, they simply switched hats and Afghanistan was won. No such joy in Iraq.``
The US government cannot plead ignorance about these artefacts and museums. It was reported on NPR and by Robert Fisk that US academics/experts had given the US government a comprehensive list of archeological/heritage sites to protect as far back as in January.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=396743
You have to wonder, exactly what values is the US claiming to be heroically fighting for? Medieval invaders destroyed the invaders heritage calling it jahiliya and irrelevant to the `new` values they brought, it seems that the US government has an exactly similar disdain for its conquered people and their heritage.
#24 Posted by pmishra2 on April 13, 2003 9:41:54 am
Top Ten principles of Islamist Thinking
--------------------------------------------
1. It is OK to be undeducated and backward looking
(# of books published in Arab countries in 2000 === books published in Greece in 2000).
2. It is OK not to master technology and science
(India has 2000 PhDs in Science and Technology every year, entire Arab world about 200).
3. It is OK to be ruled by brutal dictators
(Assad, Sadam, Ghaddafi,....)
4. It is OK to have a police state in which citizens can be murdered and tortured routinely.
(true of every arab country in the world)
5. It is OK to attack minorities and cleanse them systematically.
(Copts in Egypt, Kurds in Iraq).
But invasion by a foreign force which promises to leave in 6 months and destroys a hated dictatorship which has imposed itself for 20 years. NOT OK! IT IS AN ATTACK ON THEIR DIGNITY ! ISLAM khatre mein hai !!!
What a bunch of clowns. No wonder the whole lot are such a bunch of loosers.
--------------------------------------------
1. It is OK to be undeducated and backward looking
(# of books published in Arab countries in 2000 === books published in Greece in 2000).
2. It is OK not to master technology and science
(India has 2000 PhDs in Science and Technology every year, entire Arab world about 200).
3. It is OK to be ruled by brutal dictators
(Assad, Sadam, Ghaddafi,....)
4. It is OK to have a police state in which citizens can be murdered and tortured routinely.
(true of every arab country in the world)
5. It is OK to attack minorities and cleanse them systematically.
(Copts in Egypt, Kurds in Iraq).
But invasion by a foreign force which promises to leave in 6 months and destroys a hated dictatorship which has imposed itself for 20 years. NOT OK! IT IS AN ATTACK ON THEIR DIGNITY ! ISLAM khatre mein hai !!!
What a bunch of clowns. No wonder the whole lot are such a bunch of loosers.
#23 Posted by ana_dobarah on April 12, 2003 7:49:21 pm
rsax:
some of us DO care about the shias who do get blown to bits in Pakistan, and the sunnis and the ahmedis and the christians and the women and children and all the innocent ones, minority or not....i could go on, but since you seem to have it in for us pakis anyways, i don`t see how my input would make any difference :-)
Bina: you`ve echoed questions i`ve been asking ever since this bloody mess began. thank you.
some of us DO care about the shias who do get blown to bits in Pakistan, and the sunnis and the ahmedis and the christians and the women and children and all the innocent ones, minority or not....i could go on, but since you seem to have it in for us pakis anyways, i don`t see how my input would make any difference :-)
Bina: you`ve echoed questions i`ve been asking ever since this bloody mess began. thank you.
#22 Posted by mohar11 on April 12, 2003 8:30:18 am
Say, why are Iraqis looting their own hospitals? I mean looting Saddam`s palaces is understandable but why hospitals, for god`s sake?
It is really a humiliating spectacle for Arab world - more than the military capitulation, which was a fore-gone conclusion anyway.
But as they say - no pain, no gain. Let the reformation begin. It is time the Arabs learn how to be productive citizens of the world instead of blowing up buildings and exporting wahabi terrorism to all over the world.
It is hard to believe that the texas dimwit could actually pull off such a complex task. At least the first step has been taken. Or so it appears. Only time will tell.
It is really a humiliating spectacle for Arab world - more than the military capitulation, which was a fore-gone conclusion anyway.
But as they say - no pain, no gain. Let the reformation begin. It is time the Arabs learn how to be productive citizens of the world instead of blowing up buildings and exporting wahabi terrorism to all over the world.
It is hard to believe that the texas dimwit could actually pull off such a complex task. At least the first step has been taken. Or so it appears. Only time will tell.
#21 Posted by harimau on April 12, 2003 8:30:05 am
``The Dutch have fortified Manaar, and make use of it for a Prison for Indian Princes, whom they can overpower or circumvene, when they are suspected of making Treaties contrary to their Interest, or to such as would willingly reassume their lost Freedom, by breaking the unjust Yoke of the Company`s Tyranny, perhaps, drawn on themselves by too much Faith or Incredulity; for that honest Company has always had a Maxim, first to foment Quarrels between Indian Kings and Princes, and then piously pretend to be Mediators, or Arbitrators of their Differences, and always cast in something into the Scale of Justice to those whose Countries produve the best Commodities for the Company`s Use, and lend the Assistance of their Arms to him who is so qualified by the Product above mentioned, and, at the Conclusion of the War, make the poor conquered Prince pay their Charges for assisting the Conqueror; and, when all is made up, and Treaties of Peace ready to be signed, then the Conqueror, their dear Ally and Friend, must suffer them to possess the best Sea-ports, and fortify the most proper and convenient Places of his Country, and must forbid all Nations Traffick but their dear Dutch Friends, under Pain of having the Company`s Arms turned against them, in Conjunction with some other potent Enemy to the deluded Conqueror.
The King of Charta Souri, on the Island of Java, is a fresh Instance of the Truth of what I relate. In Anno 1704, I saw him at Samarang, a Sea-port on the said Island, in great Splendor, and in high Esteem with the Dutch Commodore; but in Anno 1707 he fell under the Displeasure of the General and Council of Batavia, and in 1708 falling into their Hands, he was brought their Prisoner to Manaar, and cooped up on that small Island, there to spend the Remainder of his Days in Contemplation or Comments on the Deceit of worldly Grandeur, and of the Power and Pleasure of Sovereignty, or in humble Thoughts on Confinement, Exile and Poverty.``
From ``A New Account of the East-Indies, Being the Observations and Remarks of Capt. Alexander Hamilton from the Year 1688-1723``.
The King of Charta Souri, on the Island of Java, is a fresh Instance of the Truth of what I relate. In Anno 1704, I saw him at Samarang, a Sea-port on the said Island, in great Splendor, and in high Esteem with the Dutch Commodore; but in Anno 1707 he fell under the Displeasure of the General and Council of Batavia, and in 1708 falling into their Hands, he was brought their Prisoner to Manaar, and cooped up on that small Island, there to spend the Remainder of his Days in Contemplation or Comments on the Deceit of worldly Grandeur, and of the Power and Pleasure of Sovereignty, or in humble Thoughts on Confinement, Exile and Poverty.``
From ``A New Account of the East-Indies, Being the Observations and Remarks of Capt. Alexander Hamilton from the Year 1688-1723``.
#20 Posted by hamidm2 on April 12, 2003 8:30:04 am
romair mian,
...... there is one, and only one, reason the entire world was ``united`` against america - pe&#s envy ......
.......... it is the same reason that fat and ugly girls always bad mouth the good looking ones and call them airheads and ditzes ......... it is the inability of the half naked ``noble`` savage to recognize the fact that the pith-hat wearing bawana or saab is higher up on the ladder of evolution and is trying to help him....... it is a sense of helplessness on the part of people who cannot come to grips with the fact that their misery is of their own making........ it is because some people believe in all kinds of conspiracy theories instead of looking in the mirror .......... it is the result of a hopeless sense of inferiority and insecurity ........ it is the reaction of people whose days of glory are long gone but who can`t come to grips with the fact that they have fallen because they were wrong - wrong about everything ......... it is the reaction of a people who believe that their seventh century ideology is still relevant and who are looking for answers in ancient texts ........
........and all this silliness is encouraged by self-absorbed whiney intellectuals and poets who sit in their rooms with shades drawn instead of stepping out into the sunshine .............
...... there is one, and only one, reason the entire world was ``united`` against america - pe&#s envy ......
.......... it is the same reason that fat and ugly girls always bad mouth the good looking ones and call them airheads and ditzes ......... it is the inability of the half naked ``noble`` savage to recognize the fact that the pith-hat wearing bawana or saab is higher up on the ladder of evolution and is trying to help him....... it is a sense of helplessness on the part of people who cannot come to grips with the fact that their misery is of their own making........ it is because some people believe in all kinds of conspiracy theories instead of looking in the mirror .......... it is the result of a hopeless sense of inferiority and insecurity ........ it is the reaction of people whose days of glory are long gone but who can`t come to grips with the fact that they have fallen because they were wrong - wrong about everything ......... it is the reaction of a people who believe that their seventh century ideology is still relevant and who are looking for answers in ancient texts ........
........and all this silliness is encouraged by self-absorbed whiney intellectuals and poets who sit in their rooms with shades drawn instead of stepping out into the sunshine .............
#19 Posted by tahmed32 on April 12, 2003 8:30:04 am
Bhitai #12 I can do no better than cut and paste what I already wrote: ``Of course civilians have died. And young Iraqi and US and UK soldiers too. This joy is testimony to the fact that those deaths have meaning. They have given freedom and hope to 25 million long-suffering people. That is something to write poetry about. Not this political propoganda. ``
The point that should be clear from the above is that I consider every single death (civilian and military, regardless of nationality or ``side`` of the conflict) to be mourned. And meaning found for these deaths in the joy in the eyes of old and young, male and female, on the streets of Bagdhad. That is the HUMAN aspect of this war, the one that should be important to us as fellow human beings and as muslims. Not the stupid POLITICS that seem to be the only thing many ``intelligentsia`` in the muslim world seem to be concerned with.
So, please excuse me if I am not interested in joining you in converting the deaths and suffering and joys of real people into a political discussion.
The point that should be clear from the above is that I consider every single death (civilian and military, regardless of nationality or ``side`` of the conflict) to be mourned. And meaning found for these deaths in the joy in the eyes of old and young, male and female, on the streets of Bagdhad. That is the HUMAN aspect of this war, the one that should be important to us as fellow human beings and as muslims. Not the stupid POLITICS that seem to be the only thing many ``intelligentsia`` in the muslim world seem to be concerned with.
So, please excuse me if I am not interested in joining you in converting the deaths and suffering and joys of real people into a political discussion.
#18 Posted by temporal on April 12, 2003 8:30:04 am
binoo:
a clarification
no! make it an apology
upon reflection
i do appear to be unfair to bina
to have singled out only her
did not mean the way i did
should have known, indeed do know
her sensitive side
will blame my exuberant skeptic self
for the faux pas
meant to express this cynically:
we tend to forget pain and suffering
---time, distance, memory, closeness
they all contribute to dull and dilute
visceral pain
hope you forgive, friend.
a clarification
no! make it an apology
upon reflection
i do appear to be unfair to bina
to have singled out only her
did not mean the way i did
should have known, indeed do know
her sensitive side
will blame my exuberant skeptic self
for the faux pas
meant to express this cynically:
we tend to forget pain and suffering
---time, distance, memory, closeness
they all contribute to dull and dilute
visceral pain
hope you forgive, friend.
#17 Posted by rsaxena on April 12, 2003 8:30:04 am
...bina shah`s articles are concerned with everyone and his cousin`s well being...from women in india to iraqis in iraq...what a caring person...(wonder why no one cares about the shias in pakistan getting blown to bits nearly weekly)...
#16 Posted by temporal on April 12, 2003 8:30:04 am
Pir Sahib of AhmedSharif # 11:
“This was a pre-emptive strike, temporal sahib. :-) Aap naiN koi khata nahiN ki.”
BaRay miaN tou baRay miaN ab Chotay miaN bhee!……aik tou choti jhaRi nay apni mun mani Doctrine eejaad kardi hay…aur idhar aap nay apni!…aap ki saza double…dou sou naflaiN!
“This was a pre-emptive strike, temporal sahib. :-) Aap naiN koi khata nahiN ki.”
BaRay miaN tou baRay miaN ab Chotay miaN bhee!……aik tou choti jhaRi nay apni mun mani Doctrine eejaad kardi hay…aur idhar aap nay apni!…aap ki saza double…dou sou naflaiN!
#15 Posted by Bhitai on April 12, 2003 12:54:30 am
#12
Tahmed sahib
` And paid with the blood of its soldiers`
More iraqi civilians were killed than your `coalition` soldiers..so here goes your blood argument. In your words the killing of 100 americans somehow compensated for the killings of 100k+ souls(iraqis,kurds,iranis) he did with the US connivance?
Tahmed sahib
` And paid with the blood of its soldiers`
More iraqi civilians were killed than your `coalition` soldiers..so here goes your blood argument. In your words the killing of 100 americans somehow compensated for the killings of 100k+ souls(iraqis,kurds,iranis) he did with the US connivance?
#14 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on April 11, 2003 11:14:37 pm
Bina
To be honest, there are still many other louts like Saddam still hanging around.
Once they die, their families are in line for succession.
The wrteched people under them have no way of getting rid of them.
So I have no qualms about the US doing this dirty work for them.
As for Bush, he will be thrown out by his people within next two years.
#13 Posted by Romair on April 11, 2003 9:16:45 pm
hamidm #12: ``i don`t mean to be insensitve, but this was a noble and honorable war and the good far outweighs the collateral damage ``
I think you need to rephrase a bit, to
``this was a noble and honorable war and the good far outweighs the collateral damage`` for you. Doesn`t mean most people see it this way.
Aproximately, 99% of the countries have majority populations that see it the other way. Considering the fact, that goras and Muslims and chaptas and kallas etc. cannot even think alike on the type of underwear they are going to use, the fact that all of them thought this war to be something else that what you state, must mean they are on to something. Don`t you think?
Have you ever seen so many poeple from every single country in the world (except two) agree on any issue? Can you name one such issue?Schroeder and Osama on the same side. Musharraf and Vajpayee on the same side. Even Maulan Fazl and Hoodbhoy on the same side. That has to be something more than poetry. Or has everyone except you, gone nuts.....Maybe
The whole Clash of Civlisations debate has been turned on its head. Even Bush wasn`t expecting his gora populace in Europe to turn against him like this. That must have forced him to completely turn around his battle plans. Now all of a sudden, there is talk of liberating the Iraqis. If that was the issue over which this war was being fought, then what exactly was the use of bothering us with distracting justifications like WMD, Al-Qaeda links, attacked two countries etc. And what was the point of sending poor Hans Blix driving around in the Iraqi heat. And why go through the UN resolutions drama. None of them covered, ``Liberation.``
Why not say from the begining, USA is fighting to liberate Iraqis?
And when exactly did this love affair with the Iraqis start, all of a sudden. I though Americans hated Iraqis. A year ago, most of my American friends couldn`t even point to Iraq on the map. Now they are dying to liberate them. What gives? Any ideas.
In the end, it is the Iraqis who must decide if this was noble or not. If they think it is, then it is. If not, well then maybe there is a purpose behind, ``tits on a bull.`` And maybe you just haven`t observed the whole bull yet......
I think you need to rephrase a bit, to
``this was a noble and honorable war and the good far outweighs the collateral damage`` for you. Doesn`t mean most people see it this way.
Aproximately, 99% of the countries have majority populations that see it the other way. Considering the fact, that goras and Muslims and chaptas and kallas etc. cannot even think alike on the type of underwear they are going to use, the fact that all of them thought this war to be something else that what you state, must mean they are on to something. Don`t you think?
Have you ever seen so many poeple from every single country in the world (except two) agree on any issue? Can you name one such issue?Schroeder and Osama on the same side. Musharraf and Vajpayee on the same side. Even Maulan Fazl and Hoodbhoy on the same side. That has to be something more than poetry. Or has everyone except you, gone nuts.....Maybe
The whole Clash of Civlisations debate has been turned on its head. Even Bush wasn`t expecting his gora populace in Europe to turn against him like this. That must have forced him to completely turn around his battle plans. Now all of a sudden, there is talk of liberating the Iraqis. If that was the issue over which this war was being fought, then what exactly was the use of bothering us with distracting justifications like WMD, Al-Qaeda links, attacked two countries etc. And what was the point of sending poor Hans Blix driving around in the Iraqi heat. And why go through the UN resolutions drama. None of them covered, ``Liberation.``
Why not say from the begining, USA is fighting to liberate Iraqis?
And when exactly did this love affair with the Iraqis start, all of a sudden. I though Americans hated Iraqis. A year ago, most of my American friends couldn`t even point to Iraq on the map. Now they are dying to liberate them. What gives? Any ideas.
In the end, it is the Iraqis who must decide if this was noble or not. If they think it is, then it is. If not, well then maybe there is a purpose behind, ``tits on a bull.`` And maybe you just haven`t observed the whole bull yet......
#12 Posted by wajahat on April 11, 2003 7:56:39 pm
Bina Shah
An eloquent poem that contains within it the feelings of how we all feel. Its sad Bina, extremely sad. And our own individual baghdads haunt us today. We are afraid and we are angry yet we have never felt such helplessness in our whole lives. Your poem is touching and a deeply emotional piece.
Thank you for your effort and Thank you for giving words to how we feel today.
Regards
Syed Wajahat Ali
An eloquent poem that contains within it the feelings of how we all feel. Its sad Bina, extremely sad. And our own individual baghdads haunt us today. We are afraid and we are angry yet we have never felt such helplessness in our whole lives. Your poem is touching and a deeply emotional piece.
Thank you for your effort and Thank you for giving words to how we feel today.
Regards
Syed Wajahat Ali
#11 Posted by tahmed32 on April 11, 2003 7:56:39 pm
temporal #8 This was a pre-emptive strike, temporal sahib. :-) Aap naiN koi khata nahiN ki.
In fact I like Bina`s articles generally. This one unfortunately does not ring true. It is clearly insincere, unfortunately, and that is why I wrote a negative post about it. It is is insincere because poetry is about feelings. And no one who cares about the ordinary people of Iraq can have anything but feelings of joy today. Since this joy is visible in the eyes of ordinary Iraqis in town after town. Their ``Thank you, Mr. Bush``,
Thank you USA`` comes from their heart, as one can easily tell by looking at their faces.
Of course civilians have died. And young Iraqi and US and UK soldiers too. This joy is testimony to the fact that those deaths have meaning. They have given freedom and hope to 25 million long-suffering people. That is something to write poetry about. Not this political propoganda.
I wish Bina well, she is a fine writer. I hope (if she reads this) she will understand what I am trying to say, and see this not as idle criticism. In fact I hope she will consider writing another poem to celebrate this day of liberation and hope for the Iraqi people - and that this time she will put with her heart and soul in it.
In fact I like Bina`s articles generally. This one unfortunately does not ring true. It is clearly insincere, unfortunately, and that is why I wrote a negative post about it. It is is insincere because poetry is about feelings. And no one who cares about the ordinary people of Iraq can have anything but feelings of joy today. Since this joy is visible in the eyes of ordinary Iraqis in town after town. Their ``Thank you, Mr. Bush``,
Thank you USA`` comes from their heart, as one can easily tell by looking at their faces.
Of course civilians have died. And young Iraqi and US and UK soldiers too. This joy is testimony to the fact that those deaths have meaning. They have given freedom and hope to 25 million long-suffering people. That is something to write poetry about. Not this political propoganda.
I wish Bina well, she is a fine writer. I hope (if she reads this) she will understand what I am trying to say, and see this not as idle criticism. In fact I hope she will consider writing another poem to celebrate this day of liberation and hope for the Iraqi people - and that this time she will put with her heart and soul in it.
#10 Posted by tahmed32 on April 11, 2003 7:56:39 pm
Bhitai #7 I think the coalition has done something better than apologize. It has put things right. And paid with the blood of its soldiers. The Iraqis have forgiven the US for letting them down in 91 - they are saying ``Thank you, USA`` over and over again. And if the Iraqis have forgiven the US, I dont think there is much left for you or me to say, is there?
Nor is what Saddam did to them so small as to be OK with an apology. Saddam will pay with his life on this earth (and I hope in the next) for his cruelty for the sake of personal ego and luxury.
Nor is what Saddam did to them so small as to be OK with an apology. Saddam will pay with his life on this earth (and I hope in the next) for his cruelty for the sake of personal ego and luxury.
#9 Posted by hamidm2 on April 11, 2003 7:56:38 pm
...... and what about all the little puppies who end up in the dog pound and nobody takes them home and the vet comes to put them to sleep ....... where do they go? ...... they go to puppy heaven where god is a great big afghan hound who walks with a german shepard on his right and a poodle on his left; where dog biscuits grow in shrubs and fire hydrants are every where .......
......this type of utter self-serving feel-good nonsense serves no purpose........ poets are like tits on a bull - udderly usless ......
...........i don`t mean to be insensitve, but this was a noble and honorable war and the good far outweighs the collateral damage .......
......this type of utter self-serving feel-good nonsense serves no purpose........ poets are like tits on a bull - udderly usless ......
...........i don`t mean to be insensitve, but this was a noble and honorable war and the good far outweighs the collateral damage .......
#8 Posted by temporal on April 11, 2003 1:08:38 pm
tahmed:
Pir saheb hum nay kya khata ki hay?... is dafah aapka ilhaam ghalat nikla!...chalo wazoo karo aur sou naflaiN lagao/maro/paRho.
...t
Pir saheb hum nay kya khata ki hay?... is dafah aapka ilhaam ghalat nikla!...chalo wazoo karo aur sou naflaiN lagao/maro/paRho.
...t
#7 Posted by Bhitai on April 11, 2003 12:59:52 pm
#3
tahmed32
do you think the coalition would apologize to the Shiites for letting them down during the `91 uprising (upto 50,000 were killed by some accounts!), all because George Bush ALLOWED Saddam to fly gunships?
do you think the coalition should apologize to Irani people(not the mullah)..for allowing saddam to rain scuds on their cities, and using chemical weapons?
above all, we all know the UN was RELIGIOUSLY paying Kuwaitis war-compensation, since UNO controlled the oil-for-food program. Do you think the iranis also had some financial claims that were never paid off? can you tell us how many kuwaitis were killed vs. how many iranis?, and then how much money was released to the iranian families vs. how much money to the kuwaitis (who are rich anyway!)
Let`s condemn Saddam, plus his accomplices, including Msrs. rumsfeld and cheny..how about that?
tahmed32
do you think the coalition would apologize to the Shiites for letting them down during the `91 uprising (upto 50,000 were killed by some accounts!), all because George Bush ALLOWED Saddam to fly gunships?
do you think the coalition should apologize to Irani people(not the mullah)..for allowing saddam to rain scuds on their cities, and using chemical weapons?
above all, we all know the UN was RELIGIOUSLY paying Kuwaitis war-compensation, since UNO controlled the oil-for-food program. Do you think the iranis also had some financial claims that were never paid off? can you tell us how many kuwaitis were killed vs. how many iranis?, and then how much money was released to the iranian families vs. how much money to the kuwaitis (who are rich anyway!)
Let`s condemn Saddam, plus his accomplices, including Msrs. rumsfeld and cheny..how about that?
#6 Posted by temporal on April 11, 2003 12:33:01 pm
bina:
let’s leave God out of here
he is neither here, nor there
(just everywhere)
what do you know about pain?
which pain survives for how long?
which pain outlasts ashes, dust?
my ache for the other karbala
is that real or dogma induced?
in a year or two, or ten
your pain will faint away
fade away, and if i were to ask
you will have to search the archives
...t
ps: chowk staff: twenty first century woman?
let’s leave God out of here
he is neither here, nor there
(just everywhere)
what do you know about pain?
which pain survives for how long?
which pain outlasts ashes, dust?
my ache for the other karbala
is that real or dogma induced?
in a year or two, or ten
your pain will faint away
fade away, and if i were to ask
you will have to search the archives
...t
ps: chowk staff: twenty first century woman?
#5 Posted by pmishra2 on April 11, 2003 12:33:00 pm
My memory fails me (maybe this is a sign !) but weren`t you the propagandist who suggested that there would be 500,000 iraqi civilians killed by the americans?
If so, where are all these dead? And by the way, when your hero Saddam was alive, did you make any public gessture of protest against his killings?
Please inform us. We need to separate out the US-phobes and america haters from the truly humanitarian folks.
If so, where are all these dead? And by the way, when your hero Saddam was alive, did you make any public gessture of protest against his killings?
Please inform us. We need to separate out the US-phobes and america haters from the truly humanitarian folks.
#4 Posted by kamala on April 11, 2003 11:45:40 am
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#3 Posted by tahmed32 on April 11, 2003 11:45:40 am
I would normally applaud such sentiments. IF you had added something here about the:
a. Of the thousands of Iraqis sent to Saddam`s torture chambers and were never seen again. (There was even a picture of an Iraqi man going through the records of a torture chamber in Basra, explaining with gestures that he was looking for records on his son who never came out).
b. Of the thousands of Iraqis who will NOT now be sent to Saddam`s torture chambers as a result of Saddam being ousted.
c. Of the children who were beaten before their parents by Saddam`s men, in order to punish the parents for opposing Saddam.
d. Of the women who were raped by Saddam`s men as a form of state punishment.
e. Of the people whose tongues were cut off because they had been heard saying something against Saddam.
f. One million Iraqis and Iranis who were killed over 10 years by the War of Saddam vs. Mullahs, in the war of the incompetents.
Or, perhaps, if there was EVER an article in Chowk, with someone weeping for the thousands of Bengali women who were raped by OUR OWN TROOPS, with the encouragement of OUR OWN GENERAL NIAZI. Yes, if you had written poems about them, I would feel this was coming from the heart. And I would then grieve the Iraqi dead with you. But as it is, this poem is just another piece in the pile of hypocrisy and inhumanity that exists among the pakistani elite. The joys and sorrows or real people mean nothing to you. You live in a world of make believe.
Now, I am sure Ferozk will jump to tell me that I have fallen on my knees to the west, as he did on another board. And some other poster will come up with other criticism. And temporal will applaud your wonderful, thoughtful poem.
To me, this just makes me sick.
a. Of the thousands of Iraqis sent to Saddam`s torture chambers and were never seen again. (There was even a picture of an Iraqi man going through the records of a torture chamber in Basra, explaining with gestures that he was looking for records on his son who never came out).
b. Of the thousands of Iraqis who will NOT now be sent to Saddam`s torture chambers as a result of Saddam being ousted.
c. Of the children who were beaten before their parents by Saddam`s men, in order to punish the parents for opposing Saddam.
d. Of the women who were raped by Saddam`s men as a form of state punishment.
e. Of the people whose tongues were cut off because they had been heard saying something against Saddam.
f. One million Iraqis and Iranis who were killed over 10 years by the War of Saddam vs. Mullahs, in the war of the incompetents.
Or, perhaps, if there was EVER an article in Chowk, with someone weeping for the thousands of Bengali women who were raped by OUR OWN TROOPS, with the encouragement of OUR OWN GENERAL NIAZI. Yes, if you had written poems about them, I would feel this was coming from the heart. And I would then grieve the Iraqi dead with you. But as it is, this poem is just another piece in the pile of hypocrisy and inhumanity that exists among the pakistani elite. The joys and sorrows or real people mean nothing to you. You live in a world of make believe.
Now, I am sure Ferozk will jump to tell me that I have fallen on my knees to the west, as he did on another board. And some other poster will come up with other criticism. And temporal will applaud your wonderful, thoughtful poem.
To me, this just makes me sick.
#2 Posted by rozaiba on April 11, 2003 11:45:40 am
thanks Bina. the pretencious victors choose to close their eyes to the reality of suffering they have caused. but they are human too and in time there will be no choice but to see.
#1 Posted by ferozk on April 11, 2003 11:07:12 am
Re: Bina
This was simply beautiful.
Today, I was reading Wilfred Owen. Owen was a war poet in the First World War, and he was also a captain in the Manchester Rifles, who was killed in the Sambre sector in 1918, about a month before armistice. The poem I was reading was titled ``an anthem for a doomed youth`` and the first line of that poem is, ``what bells pass for these, who die as cattle?``
There has to be a rememberance for all those who died. The dead must never have died in vain and as long as we remember them, ``with each setting of the sun, the age shall not weary them nor the years condemn them``.
Ciao
Best wishes!
Ciao
This was simply beautiful.
Today, I was reading Wilfred Owen. Owen was a war poet in the First World War, and he was also a captain in the Manchester Rifles, who was killed in the Sambre sector in 1918, about a month before armistice. The poem I was reading was titled ``an anthem for a doomed youth`` and the first line of that poem is, ``what bells pass for these, who die as cattle?``
There has to be a rememberance for all those who died. The dead must never have died in vain and as long as we remember them, ``with each setting of the sun, the age shall not weary them nor the years condemn them``.
Ciao
Best wishes!
Ciao
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