As Qurans Burn

temporal #40 Thank you sir. First scout and now you. I think I am on a roll.

jay #45 yes, yes. Now go read some crime story in Dawn and come back and tell us how that is proof that Pakistan is doomed.

hamidm2 #44 Religion is certainly a personal matter, and if you do not wish to have your children read the Quran with understanding, that is your choice. This does not make you a bad person, nor does this mean that fire and brimstone await you, along with that two-horned guy with the pointy beard.

As I said, I am all for separation of religion from politics, and I am certainly not saying that the Quran should be used as the basis for the constitution. The Quran happens to support this view that religion is a personal matter, and should not be dragged into politics. But certainly you can reach the same conclusion without ever having read the Quran.

I just happen to find the Quran a fascinating book to read. And I find the contrast between what I read in the Quran and Islam as understood by muslims, and the contrast between the Quran and many aspects of islamic history to date (including the politics of the shia-sunni divide, the invasion of nonmuslim lands in north africa, asia, europe over the past several centuries) to be quite remarkable. Islam (per the Quran) was never meant to be a source of so much mischief that we see in the world today. It was meant to be a religion that coexists with others, a source of character building and inner peace. It is a religion for honesty, not for hypocrisy and lies that are incorporated in the sharia. Nor is it a source for generals to gain power and for terrorists to murder innocent people.

That is why I bring up the Quran from time to time. It is my refuge as a muslim from the mischief done by individuals in the name of my religion.

tahmed 34,

You are completely tunnel visioned by the hate TNT ideology. Right here on this thread you are in complete support of the book despite the satanic verses quoted by hamidm. I have said it several times, here I repeat again, about the meaning of the book in the context of pakistan.

Because of the british legacy, pakistan has no history or tradition of blasphemy laws, hoodood ordinance and legelisation of killings unlike some of the rab countries. S9ine pakistan became an islamic country and sheria court has becaome the supreme law interpreter in pakistan, all of the above laws have been declared completely in tune with the book by the learned scholars of islam in pakistan.

As a [pakistani, when you keep asserting that the book is beyond any reproach and does not contanin any satanic elements, you are simply accepting the laws of pakistan. As you can see, what hamidm is trying to tell you is to have aselective emphesis, say that some parts of the book are satanic, you assert that all are good.

As a typical pakistani, you are supporting the mullahs, but through sofistry, trying to divert attention, trying to say that there is nothing wrong about the legal system of pakistan based on sheria lwas.

All the time when you are talking about poverty, the mankind and blah blah, al that you are trying to achieve is to white wash the reality of pakistan and the book that gives sustainance to the repressive system, and there by preventing any hope for progress for the pak people.

tahmed

..........``the Quran is the best argument for changing Pakistan from the screwed up Islamic Republic of Pakistan (littered with mullahs, pirs, sharia courts, interest free banking and other rubbish) into a normal country renamed one day I hope to Republic of Pakistan``

...... i really don`t see how you came to that conclusion .......... this whole idea of trying to separate the koran from shariah just does not work - in practical terms the koran and shariah are two sides of the same coin ........... you talk about the spirit of the koran - what is that? ..... the spirit is in the eye of the beholder - i can pick out dozens of verses from the koran and use them to put together a penal code that will make stalin turn in his grave ..........you can say the same thing about the bible, but the difference is that, other than a few nuts like jerry falwell and pat robertson, nobody is suggesting that the bible should be used to establish laws ..........

.......the argument that the Koran was a progressive book in the seventh century is certainly valid, but today it is obsolete .......so let`s get over it ...... even the most liberal of muslims (like the malaysians) are treading on thin ice when they try to create democracy within the framework of the koran ......... it just doesn`t work that way and it is a sheer waste of time and energy... you cannot build a house on a shaky foundation ..........

............ but i am not against reading the koran as long as it is in arabic and you really don`t understand what is going on - it is good therapy for the soul .......... my kids go through the ritual for an hour or so every week, but only i am allowed to read the translation - as an adult, i can handle the ugly truth ..............

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tahmed #39:

well said...210 naflaiN withdrawn...hope you behave in future ;)

hamidm2 #37 I always mean well. ;-) I dont think I am defending anything so much as setting the record straight. Thus: if you read my post #27 which got me into this discussion on the Quran, you will see that my point is simply in referring to the sharia the poster is (unintentionally, but quite effectively) also belittling the role of the Quran. This is simple logic. And, given that the sharia is often at odds with the spirit of the Quran (and in extreme cases used for quite mischievous purposes in Pakistan, e.g. to support the Blasphemy Laws), this is no mere academic point.

Coming to the Quran itself with no shariah: I read the Quran carefully and the basic message to me is very clear and simple, namely to use one`s brain, respect and enjoy God`s creation and seek to learn more about it, treat people of the opposite sex as people and not as sex objects, and never look down or look up to any man. Something like this. And one does not need to study the Quran in order to learn this, I agree - this is taught in any half-way resepctable kindergarten school.

On your specific questions: The Quranic verse you provide does indeed refer to flogging as a punishment for adultery, but this is NOT ALL THAT THE QURAN SAYS. The Quran also says that if the two repent, let them go in peace. It also adds after referring to such punishments that God loves mercy and kindness above all. To this add the fact that the Quran in many ways represented a major advancement in the 7th century bedouin society (we forget how primitive the world was at that time), and as such the DIRECTION the Quran points to is clear, which is towards a more civilized society. As Karen Armstrong, e.g. notes, while the property rights and legal rights of women are indeed not as progressive as is the case in the West today, the fact is that they were way advanced for the 7th century anywhere and indeed it took the West over a THOUSAND YEARS to provide similar rights to women (remember, women couldnt even vote in the US till the turn of the century and Swiss women could not vote until post WWII). This is NOT an argument for going back to 7th century Arabia. RATHER, this is an argument for catching up with the west in terms of equal rights for women.

Second: I share your concern that religion can (and of course already has) been used in Pakistan to serve as an obstacle towards developing Pakistan into a progressive society. However, this has no basis in the Quran, which clearly is concerned first and foremost with promoting some universally accepted values for the INDIVIDUAL. The prophet himself is explicitly told that he is a messenger and no more. The entire shia-sunni nonsense has no basis in the Quran which nowhere mentions any successor (spiritual or temporal) to the prophet.

So, if you are still with me on this rather long post, I think you will agree that the Quran is the best argument for changing Pakistan from the screwed up Islamic Republic of Pakistan (littered with mullahs, pirs, sharia courts, interest free banking and other rubbish) into a normal country renamed one day I hope to Republic of Pakistan.

Dear Syed Ali,

Just see how little the punks care about the Qura`an. They just don`t understand.

As Allah has said `` We`ve put seals on their ears so they will never understand``

I`m with you. This piece you wrote is heart rending. We`re friends.

Warm Regards.

#28 by jay:

When the jihackers killed kalia
in a deserted afghan air strip
when the killer mulla was welcomed to pakistan
temporal held the book and said, it is all jihad


...if you were in the US i could sue your pants off...and i would win for slander, defamation and whatever else the legals sharks could throw at you...of course i would not tell them you do not wear the pants in your family;)

...your comprehension was muddied already, now your obsession is wearing off too...stick to letters to the editors when indulging in your tunnel visioned diatribes...

...oh!...the verse was a refreshing change:)

...t

tahmed...

......your defense of the koran is admirable, and I am sure you mean well, but it is still quite silly....... for example how do you explain away the following verse?....... shariah or no shariah, isn`t god quite explicit about what he wants us to do to people who fool around ?........ can this injunction be overturned by taking it to the supreme court?..... can the supreme court overturn the constitution (the koran)? ........ you see, it is not that simple ....... we might be in bigger trouble if we really started following the book........


(As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement....... (24.2)

jay #28 I see you have been taking singing lessons at the Thakeray Memorial Mental Asylum. Perhaps this therapy will work, where modern medicine and electric shock treatments have failed.

btw: You never came back with a response when I told you last time to cut and paste stuff you claimed I wrote. I guess lying is part of being a Hindutva. Tell one hundred lies, and you will be reincarnated as a dung beetle. Which would be a major evolutionary step forward for you.

scout #33 Gracias, noble senorita.

When samia sarwar was killed
when the killer was a guest at mushy
When the witness to the killing
asma jahangir was charged
the book was hailed by tahmed

When the jihackers killed kalia
in a deserted afghan air strip
when the killer mulla was welcomed to pakistan
temporal held the book and said, it is all jihad

When the hindus were slaughtered
and the posters in pakistan called for jihad
urstruly hailed the book and said, killing of hindus is jihad

When the people of iraq are free
and they are dancing in the streets
the bookis burned in joy

That leaves the question
should a book of jihad
a book of killing for honour or other wise
will it make a good fuel
to cook the daily meal.