Dangerous Precedents

the most dangerous occurance happening is the rise of right wingers. aside from latin america, the whole world is going insane.

oh, and the most dangerous precendent is the backing off of of those on the other side of the spectrum.

Saeed al-Sahaf (Comical Ali) was just trying to make a last stand at the risk of his own life, to motivate his people. Now he`s being made fun of. Disinformation is an essential part of war and US has no lack of it. When Saddam and Uday/Quesay had left with a billion dollars, Sahaf was still there on the cameras. And no dearth of disinformation like all the civilian killings were `accidents`, as well as the deaths of many allied troops were the result of rifles going off by `accident`. There was disinformation all around.

So doesn`t Comical Ali deserve some respect for doing that? At-least he was right there in front of the tanks telling lies .. not `embededed` in some Humvee.

Rgds

HamidMm2:

``......... the fact of the matter is that most third world people are either suicidal or homicidal because they don`t have much to live for ..........``

But that is the whole bloody point ain`t it? The Pakis from Luton who go to Afghanistan to fight aren`t exactly third world types are they?

The problem is not tactics, be it suicide bombing or random shooting. The problem is tying up political feuds as religious wars. The LTTE use suicide bombers but they do not tell their cadre that they will die and go to heaven and have sex with Parvati. They die for a temporal cause. And Hindus from Fiji or even Karnataka do not line to die for a ``Hindu`` cause of the LTTE.

But all the political conflicts where Islam is involved become ``Jehad`` or a religious conflict. Now I am familiar enough with yours as well as Sameer`s view to understand that you were not defending these chaps. Far from it, you will go to the other extreme and blame the religion itself.

The problem though is the place of religion in society. Far from being a clergy less society, too much power has been given to the Mmullahs and Imams for the benefit of the common man.

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#6 hamidm2

So lets get this straight: you originate from a country in which not even 1% of the population is hindu or buddhist (vs. aprox 20%+ fifty years ago). Last week Friday Times published an interview with a terrified hindu family in Karachi describing their daily humiliation and terror (they have all taken christian names to escape death).

And you are going to give me a lecture on religous violence? What is next: a lecture on non-violence by Don Rumsfeld? Should Osama bin Laden advice us on compassion?

The most pathetic sight in the world are Pakistanis, who have perfected ethnic cleansing and genocide (hindus in W. Pakistan, Bengalis in Bangladesh, Kashmiris Pandits in J&K), lecturing others with words like ``freedom`` and ``just cause``....

a nice role for a frontline state


May 6, 2003
In Pakistan Border Towns, Taliban Has a Resurgence
By CARLOTTA GALL

QUETTA, Pakistan, May 4 — It is like a scene from the old days of the Taliban in Afghanistan. Dozens of religious students, or talibs, and other Afghan exiles with thickly wound turbans and long beards gather on Thursday afternoons on two of the main squares in this city.

They are among the many Taliban who took refuge here in the border regions of Pakistan after their government collapsed in December 2001, and they are staying in the sprawling Afghan refugee settlements here or with fellow tribesmen in remote villages.

These days they are gathering openly, showing a growing confidence since an alliance of religious parties sympathetic to their movement won provincial elections here last fall.

On Thursdays they meet one another, and the talk is of war and the return of the Taliban to Afghanistan.

``We don`t like the Americans, and Karzai is a puppet of George W. Bush,`` said Abdul Karim, 26, a member of the Taliban movement until he left Afghanistan two years ago, referring to Hamid Karzai, the new leader of Afghanistan. ``We want an Islamic government in Afghanistan,`` added Mr. Karim, who is now a student at a madrasa, or religious school, in Quetta.

Nasrullah, a religious student here who recently arrived from Kandahar, in Afghanistan, said that ``if the situation continues and the Americans do not behave well, I am ready to fight, because jihad is the duty of every Muslim.``

He said he had left home two weeks ago, after the governor of his province ordered Taliban supporters to leave unless the elders of their village could vouch for their good behavior.

``It is too difficult studying in Afghanistan, because all the time people demand, `Who are you and what are you doing?` `` said Mullah Shahzada, a religious teacher and former fighter from the southern province of Helmand.

Quetta is a home away from home for the Taliban. CD`s of Taliban leaders` speeches are on sale in the shops, the Friday sermons in the mosques are openly supportive of those who consider themselves to be waging a holy war against Americans or other non-Muslims, and young men speak openly of their desire to go to Afghanistan to fight.

The Taliban presence is so strong that even many of those who have been refugees here for 20 years seem to believe that the Taliban will return to power in Afghanistan. ``There will be fighting until the Taliban get power again,`` said Nur Mohammad, an Afghan shopkeeper. ``God willing, they will force those infidels out of the country.``

The border regions of Pakistan, and Quetta in particular, are emerging as the main center of Taliban support in the region, and a breeding ground for opposition sentiment to the American campaign in Afghanistan and Mr. Karzai`s government. Senior Taliban officials and commanders are taking refuge here, too, Afghan and American officials say. Members of the political opposition in Pakistan confirm that Taliban leaders are active and are recruiting young men to fight.

Alarmed by the recent increase in attacks by rebels on American and government forces, Mr. Karzai asked Pakistan last week to hand over some senior Taliban officials and commanders who he said were in Pakistan. American military officials and diplomats have also pushed for more effort from Pakistan on the border to prevent infiltration of armed groups into Afghanistan.

Pakistani officials deny any knowledge that senior Taliban or Al Qaeda figures are in Pakistan, but have said they will investigate. ``We will do everything possible not to allow anything detrimental`` to the Afghan government ``being done from Pakistani soil,`` Pakistan`s foreign ministry spokesman, Aziz Ahmed Khan, said last week.

More than 400 Taliban and Al Qaeda suspects have been arrested in Pakistan since Sept. 11, 2001, more than in any other country after Afghanistan, a figure that hints at the extent of the presence of Afghan militants here. Nevertheless, none of the senior Taliban leaders have been apprehended, even though they have started calling friendly local journalists and giving interviews over their satellite telephones.

Those familiar with the situation contend that Pakistan`s army and secret service are allowing the Taliban to operate in Pakistan, and even protecting them. Further, the local government, now dominated by an alliance of religious parties sympathetic to the Taliban, provides them with legitimacy by association.

Maulavi Abdul Wasih talks like one of the Taliban. A burly, bearded man in a white turban, he was a candidate from a district on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border, and is now a senior minister of Baluchistan province, in charge of planning and development.

There will be no peace as long as American forces remain in Afghanistan, he warned. ``America is a superpower, but it should not try to control third world countries,`` he said in an interview. ``The Americans interfered in Afghanistan and destroyed the government there; they should leave now.``

In his view, part of the problem is that the Americans have supported one group, namely the Karzai government, against the Taliban. Whether he or others in Pakistan helped them or not, he said, the Taliban would fight back. ``This is the rule here,`` he said. ``If someone`s home is attacked, he will defend it. Whether I support him or not, he will do that.``

He said he had no contact with former Taliban leaders and doubted they were living in Pakistan. He knew of their declaration of a holy war through news reports, he said.

Some Taliban may have had enough of fighting, however, Afghan leaders and some foreign officials suggest.

``There are different groups of Taliban,`` Mullah Habibullah Akhund, a former logistics commander in the Taliban defense ministry, said in an interview. ``Some are fighting, and some, like me, are waiting to see what the government will do. If they make an Islamic government in Afghanistan, then it will be O.K.``

Hajimal Zhrak, a former employee of Afghanistan`s agriculture ministry and one of the elders of the refugee population in Quetta, said, ``People support the Taliban but they do not support the attacks.``

His tribe, which has long provided a base of support for the anti-American rebel leader Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, met recently and decided to withdraw their support for him since it would drive away reconstruction projects from their districts.

A United Nations official said he had been approached by former Taliban who wanted to return to Afghanistan if they could be assured they would not be arrested. They would leave Pakistan because there they are under pressure to join the fight against Mr Karzai`s government.

Mr. Karzai has made a point in stressing that former Taliban are free to return home as long as they come in peace. But many of the regional commanders and governors, who came to power after ousting the Taliban, do not have the same sympathy, and warn that in their view, the Taliban have only one goal: to overthrow the government.

Pakistani opposition figures — who often accuse the country`s establishment, including the president, the army and the secret service, of supporting the resurgent Taliban — warned that the problem needs to be tackled at its source, that is, in these border areas, including Quetta. ``America is in for big trouble in Afghanistan unless you remove the source,`` warned one influential editor, who declined to give his name.

Habib Jalib Baloch, a former senator and leader of the Baloch National Party, said, ``America should have selected to crush Al Qaeda and the Taliban in Pakistan, rather than go to war in Iraq.`` He said he was sure that the Taliban leader, Mullah Muhammad Omar, and his top commanders were all in Pakistan, protected by their links to the Pakistani establishment.

``You need to cut the funding,`` he said. ``You will not kill them with a hammer. You must cut the funding and the connection.``

TIGERS AND JIHADISTS,

LTTE perfected the suicide attack technology, but for them it is a political activity, conducted for a purpose and there is a tangible end to the terror campaign. For the pakistani muslims, it is the ultimate promise of a religion, the heaven is only secure for a shaheed. For the pakistanis, to become shaheeds through the killing of kafirs is an individuated salvation paths.

Thousands from the madrassa of pakistan are streaming out into the wide world to kill, to afghanistan, to india, to chechniya, even to the US to knock of a few christians. There is no tangible end to the jihadic killings, there is nothing in the horizon, not even a view among the educated pakistanis that jihad is not killing of kafirs. Ask tahmed about it.

Army backs dialogue with India
Islamabad |From Our Correspondent | 06-05-2003
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Pakistan`s armed forces fully support dialogue with India and peace between the two nuclear rivals, the country`s foreign minister said yesterday.

``Fauj (army) is a partner for peace and not an impediment to peace,`` Khurshid Mehmud Kasuri said in remarks to reporters shown on a domestic television channel.

``The foreign policy of the government has full backing of the armed forces,`` Kasuri said, adding that the impression in some quarters that the army was not in favour of peace with India was totally wrong.

The remarks come as hopes for resumption of long-stalled talks with India on Kashmir and all other issues between the two countries have surged amid peace overtures by both sides.

///There is a president in pakistan, there is a prime minister. Now they are telling that Army backs the talks. There was report that ISI supports the talks. For many, except the pakistanis, the army and ISI are part of the govt, there is nothing for them to support anything, they follow the orders. This is the classic case of a failed ststae, there is no one incharge, only the jihadists are doinfg something to achieve their heavens. It is absurd to call pakistan a state, jihadic republic of pakillstan is a better fit to the reality.

#sameerJB

Just following up on my point (thanks to #7 bbabu for his comment) that while the tamil tigers are extremely violent, brutal and employ armed children AND suicide bombers, no one has tried to convert it into a clash of religions or civilizations. Even though we have a predominantly hindu minority clashing with what is an officially buddhist state.

As a result it is seen as a ``local`` problem (I know that doesnt help the dead and maimed) with much more tractable solutions. On the other hand, this constant reiteration that ``muslims`` in Chechnya and Kashmir or wherever are under ``attack`` and hare-brained unemployed muslim youth from british cities should go and help them changes things a LOT. Using religous terminology like jihad and bringing all kinds of religous oratory makes a difficult problem much worse.

This is my simple point. This useless Lord should spend some time reflecting on this phenomenon before he gives us a long lecture on why everyone is bashing muslims. Otherwise, he comes across as your typical special interest advocate, two-faced and generally interested only in exploiting liberal democracy for his own sectarian ends.

Re: #8 by kamala
Blame the Stock Exchanges, money and all that money is responsible for and encourage irresponsible Jehadis who are willing to blow themselves up.
I agree with you that all the churches, mosques, temples (hindu, buddhists), synagogues have planted venoms in the minds everywhere, seprating the individual from LIFE AT LARGE.
Violence involved in blowing up oneself is the same violence with which a YOGI practices self control, a soldier trains to drive his bayonette, a politician destroys his opponent.

We should stick with the subject - pre-emptive strike on the basis of a suspicion? It should never happen. But it happened in case of Iraq, because the World body UN failed. Why did it fail ? That is what we should find out. If anybody has an answer, I am ready to listen.

sameerJB # 5

It is not that the LTTE does not use suicide bombings as a tactic. They wrote the textbook on how to do it. Nobody has painted the fight between Tamils and Sinhalese as a fight between Hindus and Buddhists.

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pmishra2: You are not right about Tamil Tigers. They do have very large number of trained suicide bombers - mostly teenagers. They carry cynide vial around their neck in case captured. Actually the cynide vial is put around their neck by the ``chief guest`` as a diploma of their graduation from suicide training academy.