Pakistan Today

re:#55 by tahmed32
Thanks for your input.
Sridhar

rsridhar #54 I would agree with you here. India indeed has a lot to be proud of, and this is indirectly something very positive for Pakistan as well (leaving aside the bloody minded government attitudes we have on both sides). Given that it is one-sixth of humanity, India`s success in democracy, and over the past decade in economics, are indeed a positive development for not just India but the entire planet.

Population growth rates in Pakistan remain high, but are also beginning to come down - about a decade ago, the growth rate was 3.1 % in Pakistan and the lowering of the rate to 2.4% since then is surely good news. I dont consider population growth rate to be the achievement of any government, incidentally - this is a natural result of urbanization. And urbanization is taking place in virtually every country of the world today due to a broad range of factors that result from global changes. Family planning measures no doubt help, but are only part of the reason.

I do think that Stuka, even though I disagree with him here, is able to consider political and economic issues without feeling the need to prove anything about India or Pakistan. This ability is lacking to an almost appalling degree among many posters on chowk, I think.

re:#53 by stuka
``What exactly is India`s achievement? Producing babies? That`s it right?``

Well, in the matter of producing babies, Pakis are outdoing Indians. If you are well informed (which you probably are not), Pakistan has the highest growth rate (population) in the region at 2.4%. India`s at 1.8% is lower and has been so for many years now.
Funny, you ask what has been India`s achievements. Only recently, i was watching the debate (in the question hour BBC) about what form of government Iraq should have and if there should be a representative govt or a one-man one vote policy. The thought that flashed across my mind was: India already has a people`s democracy for 50 years now. How fortunate Indians are!
Countries around India are trying desperately (with foreign help) to have a democratic set up installed. But in India`s case, such a system came in place due to the foresight of India`s founding fathers. You only have to look at Pak`s experience with democracy to see what i am talking about.

But, you do not have to believe me. Listen to what Shahid Javed Burki (Pakistani economist) has to say: http://www.dawn.com/2001/09/18/op.htm

1. ``Politically under-developed societies have not moved towards full-fledged democracy along a straight path. They have normally encountered pitfalls along the way. If the institutions that were created at the very start were strong, any interruption in the move towards the ultimate goal was automatically corrected. A good example of this is from India when Mrs. Indira Gandhi`s proclamation of emergency proved to be short-lived. The political system forced her to face the electorate and she was thrown out of office, the emergency was revoked and the country was put back on the democratic course.

2. ``....My reading of Pakistan`s stunted political development reaches a different set of conclusions. I believe that the numerous difficulties Pakistan encountered on the way towards political progress resulted from the capture of the state by a small group of powerful economic interests...``.
You say:
`` India has been a ``developing`` country and an ``emerging`` market for the past 50 years.``

Wrong. India was not an emerging economy for much of the first 4 decades and became one after the dose of liberalisation in the early 90s. Since then, India has been growing at 5-6% while Pak has been growing at half the rate. In 2002, India`s percapita income nudged ahead of Pak`s, after lagging behind it since 1947.
Again, you do not have to believe me. Listen to what Burki has to say in the matter: http://www.dawn.com/2002/05/14/op.htm#3

1. ``India had the highest rate of economic growth in the nineties - it averaged 6 per cent a year, twice as high as the rate of increase in the first forty years after independence. Raj Krishna, the late Indian economist, once dubbed this anaemic rate of increase in GDP the ``Hindu rate of growth``. But as a result of the quickened rate of growth achieved after India began the process of reform, the country`s economy was 80 per cent larger in 2000 compared to its size in 1990. But India was not the only country in South Asia to outperform Pakistan. Sri Lanka, in spite of the continuing civil war in the country, was the second best performing economy in South Asia. Its GDP increased at the annual rate of 5.3 per cent.``

2. ``Between 1990 and 2000, the country`s population increased from 107 million to 138 million, an addition of 31 million people. Continuing rapid growth in population ate into the little growth in GDP that did take place. Per capita income increased by an insignificant 1.2 per cent a year. On the other hand, the Indian income per head of population increased by an impressive 4.2 per cent a year. This was three and a half times the Pakistani average. In other words, an average Indian was fifty per cent more prosperous in 2000 compared to his (or her) situation in 1990. An average Pakistani, on the other hand, was only 13 per cent better off at the end of the decade compared to its beginning.``

So, clearly, while Pakistan was surging ahead in development until the 80s, India has stolen a march over Pak in the 90s. This happened after economic liberalisation of the Narasimha Rao era.
You say:
``Indians are too obsessed with history, too intellectual and too pedantic to ever get out of the rut they have been in for the past hundreds of years.``

Actually, Indians have been in the rut for the simple reason that they were ruled by a foreign power and are a free nation in the last 50 years or so. India`s progress can be gauged from the fact that the country today makes its own Airplanes, sends satellites into space made indegenously and is talking about a lunar mission. Considering 50 years is a short time in the history of any nation (US has been free for over 200 years), this is a great leap indeed.

I however, agree with you that Indians need a large dose of self-confidence and self-respect. Read the following article by Adam Osborne to know what i mean: http://www.hvk.org/hvk/articles/0303/109.html.
Indians reading Chowk must archive the above article written by Adam Osborne, who pioneered the first portable PC and became a millionaire in the early 80s only to become bankrupt much later as technology and events overtook him. To people who know who Ramana Maharishi is (a great modern day sage who preched Advaita), it would interest them to know that Adam Osborne was the son of Arthur Osborne, a disciple of the sage. You may read more about Adam Osborne in the url:
http://www.theworkcircuit.com/news/OEG20030325S0002

Sridhar

RSridhar:

``The world simply cannot ignore a democratic nation of 1 billion people, a thriving emerging market and a major power in South Asia. ``

What exactly is India`s achievement? Producing babies? That`s it right?

India has been a ``developing`` country and an ``emerging`` market for the past 50 years. Indians are too obsessed with history, too intellectual and too pedantic to ever get out of the rut they have been in for the past hundreds of years. Till the Indians achieve self respect, they should not expect others to respect them.


Besides, US may want a more balanced representation, with France turning hostile. Of late, US and India have been speaking in a similar voice.

#50 by HisExcellency on April 24, 2003 11:33am PT

[Here is a primer on Politics 101: Watch out for what Bush, Rumsfield, Wolfowitz, Powell, Richard Perle, Tenet, Ari Fleischer and Condy Rice say about Kashmir. Also watch out for statements made by Musharraf, Kasuri , Jamali and the Foreign Secretary himself.]

Tenet did you say? Here`s an excerpt from his recent testimony to the senate:

``On the Pakistan-India border, the underlying cause of tension is unchanged, even though India`s recent military redeployment away from the border reduced the danger of imminent war. The cycles of tension between Indian and Pakistan are growing shorter. Pakistan continues to support groups that resist India`s presence in Kashmir in an effort to bring India to the negotiating table. Indian frustration with continued terrorist attacks—most of which it attributes to Pakistan—causes New Delhi to reject any suggestion that it resume a dialogue with Islamabad.``

http://www.cia.gov/cia/public_affairs/speeches/dci_speech_02112003.html

re:#42 by stuka
When the Security council does expand, India will be a permanent member, whether you like it or not. This has nothing to do with ``bloody brahmin`` delusion, as you put it. The world simply cannot ignore a democratic nation of 1 billion people, a thriving emerging market and a major power in South Asia.
Besides, US may want a more balanced representation, with France turning hostile. Of late, US and India have been speaking in a similar voice.
My own take on this is: it does not matter. US is the world superpower. Which member is in Security council does not matter, as we saw recently during the Iraq war.
Sridhar

re: #48 sri

[As long as chechen cockroach supporting jihadi pinheads roam around freely in pakiland, russia is going to despise pakistan.]

Name one such cockroach and you will win a free shipment of credibility signed by HisExcellency :))

re: arjun_m

[These aren`t my words. They are the words of the director of the Pakistan institute for strategic studies. ]

Read my post again. I am not attributing these words to you.. I am simply exercising my democratic right to ridicule your arguments that are based on selective opinions of political nonentities in Pakistan, Afghanistan, US and India. Base your arguments on objective facts, credible news reports or statements made by the key players in each country.

Here is a primer on Politics 101: Watch out for what Bush, Rumsfield, Wolfowitz, Powell, Richard Perle, Tenet, Ari Fleischer and Condy Rice say about Kashmir. Also watch out for statements made by Musharraf, Kasuri , Jamali and the Foreign Secretary himself. These are the only people who have been designated by Pakistan`s Foreign Office as their official spokesmen. Any statement made by Chaudhry Shujaat or Shaikh Rashid are pure masala, but not the official position of Pakistan.

Statements made by nonentities like Khalilzad, et al are personal views.. not the views of any administration, agency or organization. Like it or not, personal views amount to nothing in the framing of public policy in 21st century politics.

#44 yourexcellency,

Unfortunately for pakistan, russian foreign interests are very much based on heart rather than anything else. As long as chechen cockroach supporting jihadi pinheads roam around freely in pakiland, russia is going to despise pakistan.

Too much doom and gloom here.

Let us stress solutions and alternatives.

Complaints alone will not do.


Ras

ArjunM

They are the words of the director of the Pakistan institute for strategic studies. ....

who is obviously a member of the Hindu Monkey Brigade, the Bajrang Dal.

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Dost Mittar:

I had read this and enjoyed it ealier. You and old time Chowkies may remember the running feud I had with Ali_1 at one time and that was initiated because he said something about Khatris, which obviously hit close to home.

The only thing I do not understand is his politics, because he gave gaalis to YLH, but also gave gaalis to the Maulvis, and on occaision the Faujis, with Indians and Hindus being obvious targets.

So, what is he for?

NadeemKr:

``If India thinks that it can become a super power and a member of SC, it is as mistaken as Pakistan is when she claims to be invincible. ``

Hain?? When did I say this? The world will do itself a great disservice if it allows India to be part of the UN. Bloody Brahmins enjoy unnecessary delusions of intellectual supremcay and they will bore the rest of the world.

I was making a very narrow point. The BJP bogey is recent. The issues between India and Pakistan are much more basic and have to do with national priorities. The entrenched interests are bureaucratic in India and military in Pakistan.

re: arjun_m

[It seems as if anyone representing the US government feels free to threaten Pakistan with hostile rhetoric - and for some strange reason Pakistan`s response to such tirades remains muted. ]

Tirdes! Hahaha.. What tirades?? The only serious criticism during the last 18 months came in February 2003 when Nancy Powell criticized Musharraf for infiltration. Pakistan immediately snubbed her. Ever since, the State Department has toned down its criticism. Now State Department is urging India to talk to Pakistan DESPITE the infiltration.

[US government official Zalmay Khalilzad...had the gall to ``warn`` Pakistan]

You certainly have a good sense of humor in discussing the utterances of His Honorable, the Distinguished Zalmay Khalilzad. I am disappointed that despite your anti-Pakistan spit fest, you could only manage to dig up a statement from a political nonentity such as Khalilzad. You are not living up to the expectations of your Hindu Monkey Brigade (Bajrang Dal) compatriots.. tsk tsk.

Infiltration and Kashmir are India`s problems alone. America doesn`t give a rat`s behind if India ends up losing 10 security personnel every week. That is exactly why you don`t hear the real power players in Washington (Bush, Rumsfield, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Powell, Condoleeza Rice, Tenet) scathingly criticizing Pakistan.

US badly needs friends among the Muslim world. For the same reason, it is trying to forge stronger ties (read: more influence) in Turkey, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kuwait, Qatar and Indonesia. Part of this strategy is to support pro-US regimes by pumping economic assistance. Both the Republican and Democratic Party have recently decided to recruit for allies among the Pakistani parliamentarians. To effect this policy, both parties have already set up offices in Pakistan. Moreover, Pakistani parliamentarians will attend seminars on the working of democracy. Selected parliamentarians will work as interns with U.S. legislators. These are the signs of a long-term strategic relationship, not a strained one.

American foreign policy believes in permanent interests, not permanent friendships or hostilities. Today`s friends can become tomorrow`s enemies if they oppose American interests.

Pakistan is quite aware of the unreliability of American friendship. The Pakistan-China relationship counterbalances Pakistan-US relations. Now, Musharraf is trying to establish closer ties with Russia. The only way to extract maximum benefits in a multipolar world, is by not tilting toward any side permanently. This is the best way of ensuring that Pakistan`s national interests (as defined by Pakistanis) are met. I believe Pakistan`s politicians understand this quite well.

dost mittar: Incidentally, read rsaxena #37 below, or jay, to see how some interactors, unlike Ali1, are incapable of improving their personalities. I guess these individuals are all shi!t, and so are incapable of shedding any, even after two or three years.

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stuka:

Why are we all so obssessed with who is who? If India thinks that it can become a super power and a member of SC, it is as mistaken as Pakistan is when she claims to be invincible.

Let us face it, we as people, united India was never a force to reckon with throughout our know history. Invaders have plundered us, hacked us and took away our wealth, because we as a race have been always docile, divided and fragmented.

The honor stories of the Rajputs and Mussalaman fighters defending our frontiers are just stories for our history books; the fact remains that this part of the world has been violated by most invaders that that of any part of the world, thanks to our impotence and our lack of desire to defend ourselves.

Neither Indians nor Pakistanis have any history or national character to fall back on. So whether it is the Mullah or Safron clad Pundit, they are all interested in their own well being that that of their followers. I am sure that neither the leader of militant Hindu leaders nor the swashbuckiling Mullahs will ever make it to the battlefront. It would be the idiots, the brain washed imbeciles from Potohar in Pakistan, and the Gorkhas in India who would be shedding their blood in the name of religion.

So grow up and face the realities; we as people of the same descent must look inwards and not look for outside help. Just imagine the kind of economic pressure we as a region can exert on the ``industralized world`` if we were to work in unison, with Bangladesh and Sri Lanka for that matter.

Strength in numbers my dear, think about it!

re: dost-mittar

{The performance of KSE is no fluke but the result of hard work and bold initiatives. }

...or alternatively, handouts from the US in the form of loan forgiveness...bitter tonic, indeed...

dost mittar #34 Ali1 has definitely grown up over the past couple of years that I have had the pleasure (if that is the word) of his company on chowk, while retaining his humor (if that is the word, and realizing that his specialty is toilet and sexual matters). Here is a link to a fine piece of humor from him that I am providing for the reading pleasure of you and stuka: http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00002113&channel=chaathouse&start=10&end=19&page=2&chapter=1#31

The joke in the link above is about panjabis, of course, as is to be expected from Ali1, inbetween his targetting of hindu gods. But I am sure being panjabis in good standing, you and stuka will find it funny as I did. One day Ali1 will mature even further than he already has, and tell us a few good ones about his own crowd - the mattarwas of karachi - but for now this is fine.

His Excellency:

``The greatest threat to peace in sub-continent comes from BJP itself, and not the Pak Army or mullahs. BJP has languished for 42 years in opposition. ``

That is a load of bull. The Mullah Khaki nexus has been ruling Pakistan for the past 25 yrs. The BJP has come to power in the past 5 yrs. Why were the problems not solved earlier?

Why did Paki sponsored terrorists inflict Bomb blasts in Bombay? Coz of BJP?

In terms of Pakistan, and foreign policy in general, there is no conflict between the various Indian parties, be it BJP, Congress of Janata Dal.

You have to sort out your unified way of governance and foreign policy paradigms. Not us.

TODAY`S PAKISTAN,

The following letter from dawn of today summarises the pak mind set. This poor man wants the traditional roti kapda stuff, but cannot dare to say that in pakistan, he has to be under a psuedonym. He knows that for the army and the jihadits and the true islamic pakistanis, it is heaven that is the most important, jihad.

That is the reason the schools are closed and madrassas allowed to flourish, that is the reason for the biggest social event of pakistan is the lasker meetings at mardike attended by a million or more and that is why the ilks of tahmed refuse to say that killing of kafirs is not a jihadic requirement to go to heaven.


What common man wants



The common man wants peace, stability, prosperity, respect, freedom and to be treated as a human being. The list can go on and on as to what the common man wants and what he has been yearning for since 1947.

Yet every day, since the creation of Pakistan, the common man has not seen his dream come true. Who is to be blamed? The rulers, the bureaucrats, the ministers or the generals? Well, I will put the blame squarely on the common man himself! Wake up, the common man. Destiny is made, not dreamed of.

A COMMON MAN

Karachi

re: roshan

{The good news about Pakistan`s stock markets is not surprising, when one
looks at who`s really running it.}

...stock market?...hahaha....with rising poverty, unemployment, and illiteracy, you are jumping up and down about market noise in your manipulated stock market?...dude, give up these delusions and focus on reality...

only trouble with shiekh rashid is he goes in neutral gear,otherwise he is a good worker for people.he is ready to serve masses even in mid night.he is at par with sinha

ali1:
Good to see you back. You are a bright poster with a biting sense of humour even though your anti-feminine humour sometimes irks some of us buzurg-types.
Vajpayee is respected internationally more than Musharraf? That`s news. India, maybe, but certainly not that wobbly balloon!

Ali1, arjunm and Roshan:
The performance of KSE is no fluke but the result of hard work and bold initiatives. Musharraf`s finance minister took some very bold actions four years ago which could only be taken by someone not answerable to masses. The medicine, though bitter, was necessary. It created all kinds of difficulties in the short run; there was a flight of capital from Pakistan and the rupee value plunged. But the long run result has been there to see.
And the fortune favours the brave. September 11 came as a godsend for Pakistan. Musharraf`s strategic about-turn, which again could not have been possible without a dictator at the helm, has indeed paid rich dividends and has provided the right kind of tonic after the bitter medicine administered by Aziz.

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ali1 #22 ``As far as Pakistan`s image is concerned, have you wondered why a Hindi speaking dhoti clad Bagpipe is respected more around the world than you suited-booted English speaking General? (Hint: one of them is elected) ``

Quite true. Now someone break this news to Romair.

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EVOLUTION OF PAK GOVERNANCE,

Pakistan and india inherited the same governance model, but the creation of pakistan on the TNT principle set in motion an alternate world view. This notion steeped in the principle of kafirs and the treatments of them, politically operationalised through the call for ``direct action` marked the turning point. When pakistan was created it had 10 percent kafirs in the west, the ethnic cleansing through the jihadic priciples found this reduce to less than 2 percent today.

The socila change initiated by the jihadic organisation s culminated in the renaming of pakistan to islamic republic of pakistan in 1970. The education system was fundamntally changed on the k for kafir priciples and finally mushy has integrated the jihadists with the military. Other political organisations with out a religious base has been banished from the pak society by mushy and now it is the jihadic republic of pakillstan. The number of honour killings, car jacking and other forms of violence which emerge from the kill doctrine of the jihadits have flourished.

With in 100 days of taking over pakistan, mushy invited the killer of samia sarwar to his office to reaffirm his support for honour killings. It is time that the ilks if tahmed rejoice at the creation of a true pakistan in line with its founding principles.

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nadeemakr #18:

hey you don`t have to worry sorry.Zeemax is referring to the India-Pakistan Conflict Timeline that he has quoted in his post :)

cheers.

I find nothing wrong with the statements of Sheikh Rashid or Chaudhry Shujaat. They snubbed Yashwant Sinha for making inflammatory speeches. This battle of rhetoric is part and parcel of politics. It is regrettable the Pakistani politicians are being more sensible (barring a few exceptions) than the BJP-wallahs (no exceptions).

The BJP has realized that the Gujrat experiment worked wonders for them in state elections. Communalism is their only ticket to power in India. On all other counts, they have disappointed the Indian electorate. They promised an end to corruption, continuation of economic reforms, and resolution of Kashmir issue. On all three major promises, their record has been mediocre at best.

The greatest threat to peace in sub-continent comes from BJP itself, and not the Pak Army or mullahs. BJP has languished for 42 years in opposition. Now the corrupting influence of power is compelling them to perpetuate tensions with Pakistan and against Indian Muslims.

As for Pakistani politicians, the less said the better. Unfortunately the military men have also not fared better. Every body wants absolute power and a meek judiciary/press/parliament when they are in power.

The Pakistani people on the other hand have always hated one-man-rule. Everybody who became too big for his shoes, lost popularity.

Ayub Khan promised economic freedoms. And imposed basic democracies, 1962 constitution, his lewd sons, 22 industrial families, anti-Bengali racism and press controls on the country. His coup was welcomed, but in less than 3 years euphoria turned to opposition. Fatima Jinnah`s election campaign in 1964 highlighted this. She won resounding support in East Pak and West Pak. Despite massive rigging, she managed to put up a tough fight.

Bhutto and Mujib were cheered by the masses for their pro-democracy stance. But these two were no democrats at heart. Both Bhutto and Mujib became civilian dictators and lost their popularity.

The coups led by Zia-ul-Haq and Hossain M. Ershad were welcomed in both Pakistan and Bangladesh. But once again, the hunger for absolute power ruined the dream.

Same story repeated with Benazir, Nawaz, Benazir II and Nawaz II. Alas, Musharraf has also fallen for the thirst of power. He now wants to become Army Chief, President and Chief of NSC at the same time. One man will decide whether 150 million Pakistanis have a right to elect Mr. X or Mr. Y as Prime Minister. Musharraf`s approval is needed for Supreme Court appointments, provincial governership, cricket board, airlines management, and even the electricity board. The army corps commanders are unhappy with him because he is tarnishing the army`s image with his political games.

Musharraf should take his uniform off. I am sure the politicians will let him stay on as ceremonial head for another 5 years.

Tough luck Nadeem. If Sheikh Rashid and Chaudry Shujaat don`t come up to your elitist standards than its your problem not theirs. Representative democracy is a biatch, isnt it? NA-56 Rawalpindi will always elect a Sheikh Rashid Ahmed and never a Daniel Patrick Moynihan.

As far as Pakistan`s image is concerned, have you wondered why a Hindi speaking dhoti clad Bagpipe is respected more around the world than you suited-booted English speaking General? (Hint: one of them is elected)

Finally, tell me why should the opinion of a single person, i.e. you, carry more weight than the opinion of hundreds of thousands of voters who elected Rashid and Shujaat to the assembly?

------------------------------------------------------------

arjun_m: seems like you are mutton fan. I would like to feed you some ``Gol Boti`` and ``Kapooras``, whenever you are ready ;-)

Whats wrong with Pakistani leaders, why do they absolutely beliee they are indispensable?

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#13 by arjun_m:

know any paki restaurant in the DC area serving up this dish?

(...i know of at least one...used to be in upper NW....about 3 miles from dupont circle...)

but can i say something first?...don`t go there and eat hareesa...all that halaal meat would make you lose your anti-pak bite...

;)

rgds,

t

Zeemax I dont watch CNN tell me where have I stolen it from?

Stolen shamelessly from CNN.

``As two nations united by history but divided by destiny, India and Pakistan are almost like two estranged siblings.

Their rivalries over five decades have prevented both countries from realizing their full economic and geopolitical potential.

The two countries have fought three wars, two of them over the disputed region of Kashmir.

The region is small, but nestled in the foothills of the Himalayas its strategic importance and beauty make it a prized possession.

August 15, 1947: India and Pakistan gain independence from Britain.

October 27, 1947: Kashmir becomes part of India.

1948: India and Pakistan go to war over Kashmir and finally agree to withdraw all troops behind a mutually agreed ceasefire line, later known as the Line of Control.

1965: India and Pakistan at war again over Kashmir. The war ends when both countries decide to adopt a UN-sponsored resolution to stick to the Line of Control.

1972: India and Pakistan agree to work bilaterally rather than via international forums. The two sides also agree to respect the Line of Control until the issue is resolved.

1974: India detonates its first nuclear device beneath the Rajasthan desert.

1998: India conducts five underground nuclear tests near the Pakistani border. Pakistan responds with its own series of nuclear tests.

1999: The Indian Army patrols detect intruders on Kargil ridges in Kashmir and India fights to regain lost territory. Two months later Pakistani and Indian military officials agree to end the fighting in the region and disengage their forces.

May 2001: India ends a six-month military ceasefire against Islamic guerillas in Kashmir while also inviting Pakistani military ruler, General Pervez Musharraf, to peace talks.

July 14-16, 2001: Pakistani President General Pervez Musharraf and Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee meet in Agra, India for a three-day summit but the talks fail to produce a joint statement on Kashmir.

August 2001: India imposes an indefinite curfew in Jammu as tension runs high in the city after the massacre of 11 people at a railway station.

October 2001: Militants attack the Kashmiri assembly in Srinagar, leaving 38 people dead. Kashmir chief minister Farooq Abdullah urges the Indian government to launch a crackdown on militant training camps across the border in Pakistan.

December 2001: Unidentified men attack the Indian parliament in New Delhi. Fourteen people are killed, including the five assailants.

January 2002: The row over the parliament attack triggers military build-up, diplomatic sanctions, and closure of transport links between the two nations. India`s army chief says the nation is ready for war.

May 2002: Tension dramatically increases, prompting an intense international diplomatic effort to avert war between the two nuclear-armed rivals.

October 2002: Four rounds of polls to choose a new state administration conclude in Indian-controlled Kashmir. About 500 people are killed during the blood-soaked election campaign.

January 2003: India`s defense minister says that India could easily absorb a nuclear hit, whereas Pakistan would ``cease to exist.`` Pakistan`s information minister retorts that India would learn a `historic and unforgettable lesson` in such scenario.

February 2003: India says it has shot down an unmanned Pakistani spy plane that has intruded into Indian airspace in Kashmir, as a top Indian official says he is ready and willing to hold talks with Pakistan over Kashmir.``

When will it end?

Rgds

I don`t think the writer is talking about the Qabacha played by Behroz Sabzwari. Tanhaiyan aired in the late 80`s and the writer refers to a 70`s play.

Jay-Gay,

You are back! with more venom for Pakistanis.

A hateful person, Negative all the time whenever he opens his mouth, Cant find happiness in anything he does, overall, probably a border line manic depressive thinking about Pakistan`s welfare(yeah right), on top of that he ``Jay-Gay`` does not play by the rules... Wink! Wink!

How do you function in life with all of the above mentioned problems (maybe more) you have???? Why not get help ?

Aquaris: u r right about hasnat and qbascha bu this is not about them it is about Pakistan and not about npt-pakistan

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re:#10 by nazarhayatkhan
``After 9/11. Afghanistan and Iraq, please do not let US play one country against the other.``
Well said. But, nations, like individuals, take time to evolve. The evolution is as much spiritual as it is intellectual. It took Europe many centuries of war to realize that war is a terrible, terrible thing. What is it going to take Pak and India to realize how bad the next war (if it happens at all) is going to be? Previous wars had not involved civilians. Neither country possessed nuclear capability during previous wars.
Irresponsible statements emanating from both sides of the border makes one wonder if the politicians/ military analysts have learnt any lessons at all.
Sridhar

qabacha. a comical charactor who can do no right in 80`s drama serial `tanhaiyaan`. behroz subzwari hasn`t been able to grow out of the impression of that role.

harisa. a dish made after mixing different meat and cooking it for a long period of time. nice and heavy. specialty in areas of old city lahore.

Musharraf`s end game has started. He could have faded out honourably. But our leaders never learn.

Like others, he thinks he is also irreplaceable. And can not understand that Army Chief can not be looking over the shoulders of the Parliament in a civilized world.

The Army did not let our earlier leaders normalize relations with India. Now India has offered its hand of friendship. Both nations must get back to normal relations.

After 9/11. Afghanistan and Iraq, please do not let US play one country against the other.

YOu goofed it up..

Qabacha was played by Behroz Sabzwari....an over efficient assistant toa land lady..

Where as `` that Chakko hai meyray pass `` was made famous by Mr jamshed Ansari who played the role or Hasnat Bhai..

Pakistan will always exist in its present state like a yo-yo and anyone, who expects it to progress beyond its limitations is living in an utopia.

Ciao

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#4 by Jay
[Pakistan will follow the fate of iraq. Pakistanis education and employment opportunities will be progressively curtailed, tech tranfers will be restricted, it will be a `` food for oil`` type of program, what IMF calls the poverty aleviation schemes, and it will be the turn of the indians to free the pak people]

ch ch ch.....Hazaro Khuwaishyen Aisi Kay Her Khuwaish Per Dum Niklay

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Social movement in pakistan,

The only significant social movement in pakistan since its creation has been the jihadic organisations. They emerged in the vacuum created by the successive govts of pakistan by not living up to the ideal for which pakistan was created, for islam. Hundreds of such organisation came up while the ilks of tahmed blamed it al on the Us and the afghan war. Even last year, the ilks of temporal talked about only 3 percent voters for the jihadists, now every one asserts that the next election will swept by the jihadists.

What mushy has done is to create a further vacuum by hindering the PPP and sheriff party and helping the social change initaiated by the jihadists.

It was heartening to see the chief of Laskers sharing the platform with the ruling party to announce jihad against the US. Pakistan is a ``torn country`` like turkey, the elites wants to be a moderate country to join the EU, but the majority wants it to be an islamic country.
The eyropean elite would like it to join the EU, but majority fell that turkey is an islamic country and does not share the european values.

The same is the case with pakistan, the elites wants it to be a moderate country, at peace with india. That is why all of the talk about talks with the indians. The majority of the pakistanis feel that it is an islamic country and hence the jihadic border has to be soaked in blood.

The ilks of tahmed has to realise that with mushy, the change has been made permanent, the jihadists of military have manipulated the political power to the jiahdists.

Pakistan will follow the fate of iraq. Pakistanis education and employment opportunities will be progressively curtailed, tech tranfers will be restricted, it will be a `` food for oil`` type of program, what IMF calls the poverty aleviation schemes, and it will be the turn of the indians to free the pak people.

There is a Panjabi joke that goes like:

kawway (crows) spotted a dead animal and started calling their families and friends: ``aa (come), aa, aa,..........``

next came gidhaN (vututres) and started tearing the meat and singing from deep throat: `` hor khaa (eat more), hor kha, hor kha,..............``

after that came the cheelaN (birds of prey, buzzard etc) and started asking: ``kee bhaa (what price), kee bhaa, kee bhaa, ............

a dog was standing nearby and replied in barking: ``muft (free), muft, muft,.......``

well, Mutt is a dog variety and assign labels to other scavenger birds yourself. Poor Pakistan has been teared apart!!!!

Shaikh Rashid Almaroof Shida Tali is always fun to watch, but you have to give him that even foreign office clarify that he is not a spokeperson on foreign policy, he carries on his stand up comedy without any fear.

In the country where we have people like Ch Shujat as king maker and Jamali as king alongwith Maulana Diesel as opposition leader then no need to wonder why Pakistani nation consider Army far better then these civilian clowns.

from memory lane:

for “chakko hai meray paas” the name of the character was ``Hasnat Bhai`` played by ``Jamshed Ansari`` in Hasina Moin`s ``Uncle Urfi``.

Qabacha was also a funny character in another Hasina`s serial ``Tanhaiyan``,

dosent make much difference though!

a nice and pertinent article. Pakistan needs to realise that America is not anybody`s friend but only cares about its own self-interest. (Like all countries). We need to do the same but instead our leadership seems to enjoy being USA`s condom --except for the MMA. After all, until we learn to respect ourselves no one else we respect us.