Saddam Hussein Lives!

More on same …

How is “end of propehthood” a common sense meaning of “seal of prophethood” …?

I`ll wait for your response before going further ...

sattar2 #55 The part on ``no more prophets`` in fact escaped the bakri`s attention (``seal on the prophethood`` ). Trouble is, you deliberately choose not to accept its common sense meaning. But that is your choice as an individual, and I now realize that it is not my place to tell tell you how to interpret it.

But never fear: this part on ``no more prophets`` escapes the attention of many sunnis and shias too as well as of ahmedis. That is why we have mullahs acting like de facto prophets in Pakistan. In fact many of these de facto prophets of Pakistan look like bakris themselves (as skinny young men with billy goat beards) who become bakras when they are successful (like Mullah Fazloo).

SR#

The duality in your arguments only represents the melancholy and divergence of your thought process. On one hand you wish that Muslims recant their faith because in your mind that is the biggest impediment in their progress, but on the other hand you complain why they don’t ``modernize`` their religion (according to your taste). These are two mutually exclusive and impossible demands. You have to choose one over the other. It is like telling someone that you don’t want to see him become a doctor therefore he shouldn`t read quantum mechanics. You have to make up your mind first.

As far as your comments on goat eating Quranic text is concerned, I think it is an ultimate absurdity. It is like claiming that Pharos and Egyptian Empire never existed while standing on a Pyramid; and it is like denying that there could be anything like Newton`s 2nd law of Motion while you are applying it at this very moment typing your message. I think this goat-eating-scripture idea has its basis in a myth perpetuated against Bible – I don’t know if it is true for Bible or not. The Qura`n in its form that we see today is a living miracle. Denying this fact reveals only ones ignorance and arrogance and not his scholarship. God has taken the responsibility to save and prtotect Qura`n from corruption not only in the Loh-e-Mehfooz (the tablet in the heavens) but in this world also and today we see that He has fulfilled his promised.

Allah (swt) in chapter Al-Hijr (The City of Rocks) said that ``We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). – 15:9

Just pick up any copy of Qura`n in any part of the world of any time, whether it was written on the tablets in the time of Prophet or written in Malaysia sometimes in 17th century you will not find any difference in coma, semi-colon or a period. God has created a dual system for its protection – oral and in writing – which keep a countercheck on each other. There are 100s of millions of Muslims around the globe today who have memorized this book by heart. What other book can boast such a claim. How many people you will find who have memorized Das Kapital, yet they died for its edicts; how many are there who have memorized Gita, or Bible, or Torah, or Principia Mathematica, or any other book that has shaped the destiny of man. None. Today, in each and every mosque around the globe, from North America to Japan, and from Russia to Australia, Qura`n is recited by heart during Ramadan, and each congregation has more than one Hafiz present at the recitation, who make corrections if any error occurs. This is the living miracle of Qura`n.

And this miracle was needed because after Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) there is no Prophet and there is no revelation – so the task of showing the people of the world the right path, which was previously done only by Prophets, has now been given to Muslims – to everyone of them. So it is necessary that the message should reach the people of all the time and all the places, uncorrupted…… The miracle was needed and we got it.

It is easier to read Qura`n or even to read its translation but without guidance it is not easy to understand its meaning and its context. Therefore, it is always better to read a Tafseer (explanation) with it. Qura`n is a book, which is very different from any other book ever written; and it is not a matter of faith it is a matter of observation. In order to understand Qura`n and what it is all about read the following introduction to this book. In Urdu, this introduction is a masterpiece of prose, whereas in English it is also the best ever written introduction of the book.

http://www.iiu.edu.my/deed/quran/understand.html

The fact of the mater is that most of the people who question Qura`n or Islam, pattern their questioning on the style of those who question Christianity. Same logic is used, same innuendos repeated, and same stereotypes regurgitated. Two religions are different in their philosophy, their outlook, and how they have been conveyed to us and the method in which the message was preserved. Shouldn`t then the arguments be different as well? But let me be callous here and say that those who question Islam do not have an opinion of their own – not because they won`t form one, but because they can`t. They have lost their ability to form their own educated opinions. Perhaps it is too much work, and it demands a certain degree of dedication as well. These people can write thesis after thesis on Rousseau and Russell but cannot form a political theory of their own. Yes they can write dissertation after dissertation on Adam Smith and Karl Marx but cannot form an economic theory of their own. They fail to realize that what has worked for 18th century France or medieval Europe cannot work for 21st century Pakistan or present day Muslim Ummah. You write that ``This cancerous tumor in the Muslim society survives and thrives because the ‘normal and healthy’ parts of the body offer it little or no resistance and provide it the necessary nourishment.`` . What? resistance? Resistance my ass. With this malaise, with this impotence, and with this melancholy, an action would be a miracle – and you talk about resistance? Today, this so-called tumor is the only one who has conceived a political and economic theory of their own that suits our culture and our time. Today he is the one who stands up for sovereignty and a system of global social justice…..and what have your kind done lately?

Yaqeen Allah masti hud nashini
Yaqeen misl e Khalil AAtish Nashini
Sunn Aye tahzeeb i Hazar ke Ghulaam
Ghulami se bad tar hai be Yaqeeni

While you, sac, SR and hamidm came from the left student politics in Lahore, I ``actively`` took part on the otherside in Islamabad. Our parts might have crossed on the opposite sides, had I gone to Punjab University.

There is a price for ``wakt toN aggay langan di saza`` in social context but that is more personal whereas wakt toN picchay rehn di saza is born by all - mostly by the society but all of humanity. I am sure all four of us have paid the price in some form for coming to different conclusions than most of our loved ones.

My way to compensate running ahead of time or against the wind is to actually identify, take pride and fall in love with non-religious part of the my culture whose evolution goes further back than Islam. I guess running ahead is neutralized with identity and pride in the Native (Mohenjo Daro, Harrapa), Aryan, Scythian, Huns, Panjabi, Sindhi (excluding Islamic rulers` era) heritage without sacrificing a bit of modernity. The heritage business has to work under, not equal and not above, the modern liberal and secular thoughts.

A religion is an alternate to another religion. The right place to discuss religions is comparative religions` discussion. It has no business of interfering, or in our case smothering, stifling and stampeding, other areas of individual and collective life. Only a malignant ideology would do things like that. It has been running amok from bathroom to bedroom to home, to school to heathcare to civil society, to nation and beyond.

Muslims have failed to marginalize these tendencies because of the strong belief in the inherent goodness of Islam as well as reluctance to challenge anything said in the name of Islam particularly when it could be backed by quran, shariah, fiqah, hadith or historical precedence.

Before 9/11, a Mullah from Chakwal in Pakistan, Mushtaq Awan??, threatened to march on Islamabad to force Musharraf to impose sharia. It was not a serious challenge though this guy`s supporters had been at very high places in the military establishment. Musharraf threatened to stop it in Chakwal before they could head to Islamabad. Mushtaq Awan used his trump card, then. He said that every marches will have a copy of quran chained around their neck with quran at chest. That was too much for Musharraf to handle because he knew that force can not be used against quran totting marchers. So he send his religious advisor, Dr. Qazi and practically beg to call this march off which he did because he was connected to military through jihadic endeavors in Afghanistan and Kashmir.

This is just a small example of the power or fear of Islam indoctrinated into the hearts and minds of Muslims. It blinds or blocks any idea that could be even vaguely anti-Islamic. Lately Basant is allowed to celebrate in Lahore. Wait until a single kite is found lying on the floor with bismillah, 786 or some verse from quran written on it and whole Basant celebrations would be jeopardized. Actually the anti Basant mullahs can use this trick with ease. You bring up, ``quran ki be-hurmati``, and all bets are off. The whole non-Islamic compenents of socio-politico-economic structure is susceptible to such minor tricks or accidents in the name of Islam. Forget about the ease and carelessness with which a goat ate some of the leaves. It is most potent weapon in the hand of whoever wishes to use it and does not distinguish between sane and insane, young and old, stupid and smart, illiterate and educated, bearded or beardless,........all you need is to claim to be a concerned Muslim.

Re tahmed (#48):

... and the rationalist bakri ate the pages that emphasized no, no, no more prophets ...

In addendum to my previous post ...

... either the rationalist goat ate the ``no more propehts`` pages

... or owing to a combination of late-night traveeh and simply trying to keep all his wives satisfied, poor Mohammed was dozing off as Gabriel was conveying the passages of Quran ... and screaming ... no more prophets ... no more prophets ... no more prophets ...

If only Mohammad was paying attention ... it would have relieved tahmed Sahib of his misery ... of trumpeting the credentials of Quran, while being unable find any verse to support one of his basic contentions ...

hamidm:

...look most of us agree there is some form of cancer in the main body…call it trap, quagmire, dilemma, conundrum or what have you…this cancer could be malignant or if we are lucky non-malignant…either way it has to be treated…this is where most of us are befuddled and shouting azaans, other melodies or screams from our own minarets and pulpits…the good thing is more and more of us are aware and listening to the whispers of the winds and reading something on the wall…this is where the exercise becomes intricate and befuddling…(what do I subscribe to can be defined very simply thus: the message is a start off point only)...hope you do not dismiss this lightly...there is ground for fatwas and violence here:)

…there appear as many solutions as are muslims…throw the baby with the water and tub, clean the baby, change the water, add soap and mild disinfectant…of course the easiest recourse is to start afresh…and I have serious doubts if even that can be attained even on our individual levels…we carry too much of it as cultural baggage…and remember there are a billion plus we are talking about…too much upheaveal if we follow that path and no guarantees even after a century or two if this world can take it…hence I would throw my lot with the reformist from within…even if it means singing on the deck of titanic…

…you cannot have Russell and warraq as book rests…think about this…and make your choice…and peace…

rgds,

t

ps: sac, SR, tahmed. sameerJB: always a pleasure and a welcome first post from courage

re #50:

SR:

I`ve had my run-ins too with the Jamat-i-Islami goons involving hot irons and cricket bats but those should be left untold for the time being.

By your reckoning Islam is at least 300 years away from catching up. Trouble is as Munir Niazi points out ``Waqt toan agay langan di saza.....aadmi kala reh jaanda ey``....the problem with being ahead of ones time is that one is left all alone. Retreating to the mosques will not solve anything and 300 years is a long long time.

later
-sac

interesting discussions. karen armstrong`s `muhammad` talks alot about the political expediencies of that time. for example, alot of muhammad`s marriages were done to form alliances with hostile tribes.

armstrong`s book is very very good. it brings everyone down to a human level. everyone made mistakes/miscalculations since they were only human, including the prophet and this book says so without seeming blasphemous.

some examples:

during the signing of the treaty of hudaiba, omar gets infuriated that there will be no conquest of mecca and threatens to break away from the prophet, if only he can get the support of a 100 men. he doesn`t. but this episdoe shows how fragile muslim unity was even during the prophet`s days. (described in armstrong`s muhammad)
omar is depicted as a hot-head by many historians. he is reported to have been a wife beater and the well-known incident of him severely beating his sister and brother-in-law finding them reading the koran is well known. in islamic studies we are taught that he saw the light upon hearing the words, but quite a few historians describe the episode differently. one even goes as far as to say that if it wasn`t for hamza being with the prophet, when omar came threatning with his sword, the prophet may have been attacked. reportedly, hamza counter threatened omar and omar sheathed his sword and changed his tune and said he came to find out about islam. the implications and innuendos are clear to these historians. (from bernard`s muhammad, in Borders)

then theres the episode where ayesha`s fidelity is questioned, and muhammad is really confused and dosen`t know what to believe. so he asks different people. he asks ali and ali tells him not to worry there are plenty of women to choose from. that was interesting. (described in armstrong`s muhammad)

read armstrong`s muhammad its a really interesting book.

ps: i heard about the goat story too. supposedly the koran was written on date palm leaves and kept by ayesha under her mattress, when one day a goat wandered in and ate 10 suras. it happened to be a kafir goat because not only did it eat the shia and ahmedi paras, it also ate the section on taraveeh which omar had to introduce from memory later on. ;)

sac,

You ask a tough and loaded question. As for being citizens of the world is concerned, forget about it. The more technology shrinks the size of this planet, the more divisive humanity becomes. And here you cannot single out the Muslim. This is a worldwide problem. Material society is moving much faster than cultural values can cope with.

Abdul’s future prospects seem bleak to me, but the trouble is, so do my own.

This is my greatest gripe with jehadis, that because of their criminal actions against the (hitherto groggy, but now awakened) White Giant even people like sameer, hamidm and me have been forced to retreat into the mosque.

The militant amongst us is the cancer that has been killing our whole societal body. I have been keenly aware of this malignancy since the early 1970s.

In 1974 three of my close friends (and fellow campaigners for the ‘liberal’ candidate) were victims of a punitive stabbing by Hafiz Salman Butt, a Jamati thug who was trying to intimidate the politically active students into backing down and letting the Jamiyat-e-talaba-e-Islam candidate win the student union elections. This was done on campus, in broad daylight, and with remarkable subtlety and skill. (Back in those days only arms or legs were stabbed for ‘setting an example’, the klashnakov had not yet arrived.) I was also one of the targeted ‘surkhas’(Reds) whom the Hafiz-e-Quran would have stabbed, but fortunately I had fled the scene at the first hint of danger.

This cancerous tumor in the Muslim society survives and thrives because the ‘normal and healthy’ parts of the body offer it little or no resistance and provide it the necessary nourishment.

Much as I’d like to say otherwise, the truth is that I have to agree with SameerJB and hamidm that the trouble lies with the vice grip that fundamental religious ideology has over the collective imagination of Muslim society. Imagine the subliminal effect on a Muslim child’s impulse to ask questions when the first words in life he reads are “za li kal kitab-o- la reh ba fee” (this book is above any questions) … The tragedy is that what began with “iqrah” (read), when the Prophet set out on the journey ended up this way. Until we exorcise this demon we are all doomed.

Islamic ethos, being five hundred years younger than Christianity, is still at the point in its social evolution where the Christian world was, say at least, 300 years ago. Even in early 1700s, for instance, the overwhelming majority of Christians believed the Bible to be the unadultrated, directly dictated word of God. Later this ‘theory of dictation’ was gradually modified in the favor of the ‘theory of inspiration.’ We have not reached that collective stage yet. That explains all the PhD’s and MD in America that live the life of cognitive disonance that they do. (As far as desi physicians in America are concerned, they are, by and large, a hopeless bunch. They are ‘out of their league’ for the most part as their social status puts them in boots that are often too big for them. Basically their educational base is just 12th grade after which all they ever learn is medical science. No wonder most of them regress into the deep recesses of their desi cultural ghettos. But let me not digress.)

Coming back to the thread of the Quran and goat and all that let me start by saying that I do not consider the Prophet to be a charlatan or a cynical liar as the malignant militants usually accuse those of us who question his deeds and actions. He was a man of steel whose character and sincerity were beyond reproach. In my view he was a great revolutionary hero. People around him were loyal and devoted to him and loved him beyond question. These are qualities of a great leader. No cheap trickster can be so clever as to fool all the people all the time. It only comes from genuine sincerity. However, having said this much, I do not believe the Quran to be anything more than a product of his subconscious genius. Here the ‘theory of inspiration’ can be invoked by the faithful and that would be more plausible than the present ‘theory of dictation’. Viewing it in this light one can better explain thing in the Quran like the command given to the Prophet to get married to the young and beautiful wife of Zaid-bin-Harris. (Ayesha, by the way, is reported to have quipped to him at the time that this was a rather ‘convenient’ revelation. But let’s not get into that lest Hafiz Salman Butt is dispatched to my abode.)

The personal privileges that accrued to the Prophet towards the later part of his life as his status rose, were very reasonable and modest. A man of lesser character would have really exploited the situation. He not only didn’t go overboard, rather he was very modest in the exercise of power. This is a testimony to his greatness. I’ve mentioned this before that, to my knowledge, there are only two people in history who began their careers as poor and destitute orphans but by sheer personal strength and genius ended up being the founders of new empires and died comfortably in their beds with devoted followers in attendance. The other one was Changis Khan.

…SR

temporal,

...........it seems that you have fallen into the islamist`s trap.... what do you mean when you say

``where some of us
---the people of the book
who can, do not read
understand nor follow
despite untold exhortations
leaving the field clear
for the flowing beards``

.......this smacks of the oft repeated, but hollow and shallow, excuse that islam has been hijacked by the mullahs .......... and then you go on to suggest that if we read, really ``read``, the book we would discover ``true`` islam, as if true islam would solve the problems of incessant prayer, polygamy and patricide........ the problem is that even cultural muslims like us are loathe to admit that there might be something innately wrong with the ideology .......... we are like those die-hard communists who refused to admit that communism just doesn`t work ..... we are like heroin addicts who know the stuff will kill them, but they can`t help themselves............. we keep on insisting on the perfection of the book even after we have struggled to make sense of its painfully repetitive and disjointed contradictions .............we look for goodness where there is none ............ we are doomed

temporal #43 you write ``kaash koi hum say bhee
gar pooch ta tOu kehtay
bhayee yeh namaz rozay
waghera bhee mazaidar hain ``

LOL. The bakri ate the pages containing the manner in which to pray, but forgot to eat the pages on the namaz timings. The Shia bakri ate pages describing one form of prayer, the Shia bakri ate pages describing another form of prayer. The Ahmedi bakri ate up the pages that mentioned the Deputy Prophet, Ahmed Mirza.

hamidm2:

Thanks for confirming my worst fears. Now let me go ask Shankar for some Paxil.

Sameer:

I, on the other hand think that the number of Muslims questioning their religion is on the decline. The Iraqi war has actually caused them to get more and more introverted. I agree with you that even the cultural ones are one incident away from being herded back into their motherlands.

We just don`t realize that we are slowly being cast in the same light as Jews were during the 1930s. It started with a gradual blaming of Germany`s ills on the Jews and ultimately ended with Hitler`s proclamation ``If the continent of Europe has to suffer through a world war on account of the Jews, so be it``.

The well meaning ones like tAhmed and t are still trying a path of moderation and dialog using humanistic themes of love and brotherhood. But their voices are bound to be drowned in the sea of madness that is composed of their more fanatic brethren.

t:

You and I are not prepared for this battle. We have too much to protect and too little to gain.

later
-sac

tahmad, hamidm, SR:

Yeh Na Thee Humari Jaahil Bakri

bakri ho ya bakray ki maaN
bhook mitanay kay lyay
khai gee to beh`r haal

aur zik`r oos bakri ka:
qusoor srif yeh tha na
kay paRhi likhi na thee
aur bhooki bhee nikli woh
tou khaa gayee woh patta

aur such poucho tou bhai
kaash koi hum say bhee
gar pooch ta tOu kehtay
bhayee yeh namaz rozay
waghera bhee mazaidar hain
laikin yeh na thee humari……

sac: The question you posed are more appropriate for believing, nominal or cultural Muslims and I do not fit in either of those categories since I do not believe in the existance of god.

I am not smart enough to predict anything independent of time limit but in my remaining life and definitely this century is not going to see Muslim power in any meaningful way. There would be pockets of success stories but it is doomed as a culture of living life accordingly. For example, praying, fasting, hajj, beard, hijab, halal meat, abstinance from sex except for married and so on contribute mothing compared to liberal education, birth control, hard working, rule of law, freedom of choice and speech and liberal democracy. The world works on real-time input-output principle whereas ritualistic Islam is just input loaded with a blind faith raincheck for output independent of time.

The three cae garages and air-conditioned homes phenomenon of cultured Muslims enjoying life in the west is in serious trouble. One more major terrorist attack on western soil and west will start pulling the plugs on all Muslims. Anyway, Muslim diaspora is not indispensable anywhere and many equally talented chinese, indians and south americans are more than willing to replace Muslim expatriates.

I see actually further sliding of Muslims including the small cultured Muslim diaspora in near future, thanks to the failure of Muslims to control the jihadic tendencies of their brethrens, thanks to defending Islam where it does not deserve to be defended, thanks to the obsession with the religio-political overlap on the basis of early Islamic history and thanks to pan-Islamism - ummah.

Nobody has done better job than Salman Rushdie to start smashing this euphoric Islam. He started the process of chipping away the idolized Islam by creating doubts and V. S. Naipaul and Ibn Warraq (perhaps a Pakistani or an Indian Muslim) have followed on Salman Rushdie`s pioneering work.

Some three or four years ago, you mentioned that many educated Muslims carry a deep feeling that Islam has failed them but don`t say it loudly and clearly. The number of such Muslims is on the rise and they are becoming more blunt about it. It is yet to be seen if this group of people gains critical mass and starts making a difference.

Under current circumstances, there is no hope for abdul! There was a faint ray of hope once not so much in distant past. The hope was that Muslims due to their obsession with their beliefs would provide foot soldiers for the west (another people of the book) against godless commies of Russia and China and in exchange some western ethics might rub in but cold war ended without the need of Muslim foot soldiers or Islam. Gorbachov set in motion a process that eliminated the usefulness of stupid death-wishing Muslim hordes.

Last thing, particularly about desi Muslims is that Islam was not the best thing happened to their ancestors or to them. Desis are still waiting for the best thing - a peaceful, hopeful, lawful, joyful and decent life.