The Wheels of Time

Sadna and Sameer..by the way ..which state are you from? Just a curiosity..

Isn`t the first Deobandi madrassas ever run in India. They also used to call themselves Taliban.:-)

This is like going in circles. Some people are confusing language and cultural with religious idealogy. Key point here is that hatred of Pakistanis is not motivated by Punjabi language or culture. Period. It is convenient for people to label it as Punjabi thing and then freely bash it without being called as anti-muslim or anti-Islam. A Jihadi from Quetta does not get up in the morning and read Khushhal Khan Khattack before going on jihad in Kashmir. Same was jihadi in muridke does not recite Bulleh Shah or Ustad Daman before picking up his ak47 or blowing himself up. I am sure killers in Gujrat last year were not exactly motivated after reading Gujrati poems of Dula Kaag..nor did they raise any slogans of long live Gujrat - death to muslims.

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correction #89
``please don`t blame the Greeks for present-day Pakistanis` prejudices and what they write in their newspapers (and perhaps textbooks)``

SameerJB, dullabhatti

Sameer, please don`t blame the Greeks for what the present-day Pakistanis prejudices and what they write in their newspapers (and perhaps textbooks) while holding me responsible for what I say or do :). I donot need to look for a good `Before Christ` reason for what I say or do:

For instance its the Afghans and Western press who use the term Punjabi Taliban.

http://www.arena.org.nz/afwar.htm
````Punjabi Taliban,`` a gap-toothed old man dressed in a colorless turban and a cloak hissed to me, gesturing at one of the bodies. Another man shook his head, ``Kandari Taliban,`` he said. ``


Apparently those helping the Taliban from the Pakistani Army were also Punjabi speaking:

http://www.omaid.com/english_section/in_the_press/recognition_JanesDefence_Oct4.htm
``In addition, informed sources told Jane`s Defence Weekly that Pakistani military involvement appears to have gone beyond logistic support and the presence of military advisers to include the covert deployment of special forces.

One western military analyst noted the presence of an estimated 300-400 Punjabi-speaking infantry displaying ``extraordinary collective skills``.``


I am NOT GUILTY here of anti-Punjabi prejudice.

Perhaps more people speak Punjabi than lay claims to pride in Punjabiyat? The CIA factbook says 48% of Pakistanis are Punjabi speaking. I myself, not long ago, while passing through the airport at Doha Qatar, saw and heard many shalwar-clad (apparently) Pakistani women who were headed for religious pilgrimage in S. Arabia who were speaking Punjabi.


As I said before its hard for people from outside to tell to whether pro-Punjabiat or pro-Indian feelings are confined to a few and whether these are widespread feelings.


If Lahore is the cultural capital of Punjabiat, Muridke is not many miles away If an Indian visits cities and towns in Pakistani Punjab, which feeling is he going to encounter - anti-India or pro-India?

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Very well written !!!

I am glad that the author did not mention Panjabiyat as some of the people who posted have. I really get irritated when I come across words like Panjabiyat and Kashmiriyat. Neither of these terms exist in the real world. Panjabiyat if it ever existed was killed in 1947. Similarly Kashmiriat if it ever existed is now dead. Who killed most of the Panjabis during Partition - other Panjabis. Who expelled Kashmiris out of Kashmir - other Kashmiris.

Pakistani Panjab and the Indian Panjab could be on different planets. Yes we share the language and to some extent cusine but our value systems, our goals and what we consider our heritage are now poles apart. Sooner we realize the better for us to get on with our lives.

My parents came from Pakistani Panjab and until they died they talked so lovingly about Lahore and what was in Pakistani Panjab. If partition had not occured most probably I would be Lahori too. However, do I ever wish to even visit that city ? No way !! It has no attraction for me at all because what is now in Lahore or Pakistani Panjab is very different than what my parents left. I guess if my parents ever visited Lahore they would have been dissappointed to see a cultural melting pot converted to a unireligious, bigoted fanatic place.

yes yes sir. Punjabis are dumb, illiterate and very quarrelsome. We kill thousands of eachother every year in riots. abh aap janaab batayeiN ke aapki khandaani hazrat Einstein se milti hai kiya?

Khurana ko kitni jaldi maan liya ke woh Indian tha..udhar aaka Azhar Masood kehta hai hum sabh se phelay jihadi hain aur kuchh nahi..lekin woh Punjabi hai.

#81 by Dilshad on May 21, 2003 11:33am PT

++How dumb Punjabis are ...............

At the same time how stupid & foolish
Dont you think we in India do not know you Punjabis ....?????

It all obove the head of Jamedar Major Bhuta Singh ..Havildar
Some Punjabis may have been made into Field Marshall on BOTH Pakistan sides & Indian Sides ..
But they alway are foot soldier of British ,Indian & Pakistani ,never stategist of ANYTHING
++


Dilshad...

All the movie icons like Raj Kapoor family, Sunil Dutt, Sunny Deol.... all the Khannas(Rajesh, Vinod etc), Bhatias.....of the industry..all Punjabis...

Even Amitabh Bachchan has a Punjabi(Sikh) mother.

Sabeer Bhatia.....the Hotmail `postman`....a Punjabi......

Kalpana Chawla.......the illfated `dumb`(as per you)..flying woman Punjabi..

And we have enough `rikhshawalaa` and `rehriwallahs` from other states who migrate to Punjab from UP and Bihar...so better be a `hawaladaar`...in the fauj..

Otherwise ..you are right Dilshad...Punjabis do have this aggressive streak which has at times been used wrongly...so it needs a right direction..and right opportunities too...which they won`t...unless and until they become more manipulative and less forthright and confronting..

But fro us Indians..Chanakaya is a symbol of intelligence...

sadna:
here is an offer you can`t refuse. I am ready to call Pakistani Army as Panjabi dominated and even Panjabi Taliban, if all the people you label Panjabi actually accept being Panjabi and consider their languages as accents of Panjabi. Do you know it means that P-Panjab actually starts at chinese border along the rivers Indius and Kunar, all of Hazara, part of Mansehra and Kohat and Peshawar and also part of Kashmir in addition to current boundries of P-Panjab. Wow! By the same standards, you have to also accept that part of Jammu in Kashmir, part of HP, two districts of Haryana, most of Delhi are also Panjabis first.

Or you accept the right of the people of Kashmir, Haryana and HP to call themselves belonging to their own states first and then use the same standard to Pakistan to those who do not wish to be called Panjabis, making Pakistani army no Panjabi army at all.

You can`t have both ways!!!! Adaab arz hae

sadna and soysauce:
Here are two points regarding Panjabis domination of Pakistan military or power politics.
1) Pakistan is a majority Panjabis country. They have more voters, more people, more workers, more politicians, more bureaucrats and the list can go on and on but please alse read the point number 2 before coming to any conclusions.

2) Panjabis dominate the non-comissioned ranks of Pakistan Army but it is a superficial reality almost same as suggesting Hinduism is casteism or Sikh men are those who wear turban and grow beards. It is so superficial that it can be changed with one strike of pen by the President or Prime Minister of Pakistan. This is how.

The Panjabis in the army come mainly from Potowari speaking area of northern Panjab. Just like Saraiki speaking, many Potowari speaking wish to have separate province or at least Potowari accepted as a distinct language instead of an accent of Panjabi. The support for Potowari province is much weaker than Saraiki province. Anyway, accepting Potowari as distinct language is no big deal for anybody but it changes the whole superficial reality. Now the order of numbers of non-comissioned Army would be Potowari, Pashtun, Panjabi,.....and among the commissioned ranks, perhaps, Potowari, Urdu-speaking, Pashtun, Panjabi roughly equal or slight edge for Potowaris. At generals level, I am sure favoritism plays definite role. Therefore we have, sometime, more Potowari general, some time more Pashtun generals and sometime more Urdu-speaking generals. So technically speaking it is Punjabi because of the borders of Panjab province but if you accept Potowari identity and take a poll of military, most will opt for Potowari rather than Panjabi identity. You can verify this from romair or urstruly.

We, the people of subcontinent, really have a problem of accepting superficial realities as absolute truths. Most Pakistans similarly define Hinduism and Sikhism as I mentioned above without digging deep and finding the human thought process, vision for society, social order and psyche playing major role in Hindu and Sikh thoughts.

I am still not sure why it is always called Panjabi Taliban or Panjabi army. I have a hunch that it has to do with general uncouth, boisterous, aggressive image and deep feeling of dislikeness of all things Panjabi on part of many non-Panjabi people but never saying it openly like Dilshad did because of its stereotypical nature. Actually it would be much better for anti-Pakistan or anti-Panjabi hardliners to fan separate Potowari identity from Panjabi to see P-Panjab further dividing into Potowar, Panjab and Saraiki suba.

soysauce, Panjabi awareness of the status of their language dates much back than BhindraNwale even in Pakistan. People like Masood Khaddarposh, Major Ishaq of Mazdoor Kisan Party and K. K. Aziz author of famous and frequently quoted book, ``Murder of History`` predate BhindraNwale. Isn`t it ironic that people who have ``stranglehold`` on non-comissioned ranks of Army would rather not call themselves Panjabis but potowaris?

sadna, I am certain Chanakya rascal (or Kautalya Rascal) phrase is of not Panjabi origin. He was a Potowari and many believe that his Master and friend, Chandragupt Maurya`s mother was also from this area. Most likely, the Greeks transplant in post-Alexandrian northwest India coined this phrase because he outsmarted them in power game in that region. Moreover, transplanted Greeks reclaimed part of northwest subcontinent as Bactrians (Greko-Afghan) and Parthians (Greko-Persians) for brief periods, each time in post Chandragupt era and had interest in defaming their highly skilled enemy of the past. Just a guess.

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Sadna, Is a Jihadi a Jihadi because he is Punjabi, or does he happen to be a Punjabi(born as a Punjabi with no control over it, and despises this fact) but motivated to be Jihadi by something very non-Punjabi? Masood and Saeed and many others are born as Punjabis but when was the last time they did or said anything about their language, land or anything else related to Punjab...they are almost Bedounis transplated in the middle of Punjab. As some one posted on another thread, the Pakistani army is majority Punjabi but then Pakistan is majority Punjabi itself. What a lower level soldier feels or does after training does not come from his own brain or heart..it is his training and brainwash from officers above..some of who may be Punjabi too but not motivated by punjabiyat.

Soyasauce, the fraternal feeling of Punjabis was there..it came out in the early 1950`s. There are memoirs of people who visited either side during that period. There were visits from each side. There were hockey and cricket matches in Amritsar and Lahore where thousands of people from each side participated. Then there was a change in policy in Pakistan to totally Islamise itself and create as much difference from India as possible.(recently same is happening on Indian side) Then there was almost total freeze on exchange of arts, books and travels in general after 1971.[there was almost a whole generation of Punjabi writers on each side that other side did not know of until 90`s. e.g. Famous Punjabi poet of Lahore, Ustad Daman is known to most older people who read or heard him before partition or in 50`s...then next generation did not even hear about him on Indian side. Most of us discovered him only 7/8 years ago when some of his work was brought back to India by visitors and published in India] Which continues to this day but due to communication technologies in the last 10 years and migrations,things are changing...people who otherwise would have never come in contact with other side are bumping into each other online or in real life.

I don`t underestimate the hatred indoctrinated through radicalization and nationalism by state of Pakistan but I still believe majority of people who take pride in their language and culture(Punjabis, Sindhis, Mohajirs, Balochs) don`t have blind hatred for India....it is the other group,who again happens to be majority Punjabi, that permeates this hatred of India along with hatred of their own language and culture. Indians by labeling them Punjabis and condemning all Punjabis are making it hard for the genuine Punjabis(and other groups) to come out and offer a hand of friendship. Condemn teh jihadis for what they are, not for what they could have been. Thats my understanding from what I have come accross so for.

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