The Wheels of Time

dullabhatti #77
`` I see Indians condemning Punjabis bundling them together with Jihadis``

Western news reports from Afghanistan spoke of Afghans referring to Pakistanis fighting there as `Punjabi Taliban`.

Sameer,
The influence of punjabis in pakistani politics seems to be a matter of opinion. Here and elsewhere, nonpunajbis & punjabis to some extent have mentioned the near-stranglehold punjabis have on the military establishment. From an indian POV, hostility from pak translates into antipathy of pak punjabis towards india. It`s almost taken for granted that punjabis across the border hate each other. Historically of course this stems from the Partition massacres. One also understands the punjabi resentment that urdu is taught at the expense of punjabi. The fraternal feelings the punjabis across the border express for each other is of recent vintage. Perhaps it dates back as far as to Bhindranwale and the support khalistanis received from pakistan.

Sameer #75
btw, Urdu is also suffering in India for the same reasons as Punjabi seems to be suffering in Pakistan - from the implicit assumption of being a vehicle of anti-nationalism. This is also something which needs to change.

I don`t know about Mahabharata and Punjabis. (Interestingly, Chanakya was most likely from the Punjab region, but `cunning chanakyan Indian` is a favorite adjective of the Pakistani press)

Leaving history aside, a nonPunjabi Indian like me has mixed feelings about Pakistani Punjab as a political entity. It is written in a lot of places that the Pakistani Army is numerically dominated by Punjabis - who feel a greater historic enmity with India compared to other ethnicities in Pakistan(Sindh, Baluchi, Pashtun) and who are more ideologically committed to defending `Pakistani ideology` while the other ethnicities are more interested in improving their living standards. And where does the `we are the martial races` sort of world view predominate ..?

In addition, Punjab contributed jihadis to fight alongside the Taliban and is contributing jihadis to fight in J&K too. Masood Azhar and Hafiz Saeed are Punjabis operating out of Punjab.. And etc.

So while its clear many Pakistani Punjabi individuals favor friendship with India, its hard to tell (as viewed from India) whether such sentiments represent those of only a small fraction of the elite or they represent a more widespread feeling in the larger population.

Very well put Sameer. Indians have to understand that true that many of the Jihadis in pakistan are Punjabis, but the phenomenon itself is not Punjabi motivated..mohajir motivated, or sidhi or afghan motivated..in fact it is motivated by a plan to counter balance all of teh above motivations. I see Indians condemning Punjabis bundling them together with Jihadis. I have met lot of Punjabi writers and artists in my life and read thousands of opinion pieces in Punjabi but I have not met one sympathizer of Punjabi Punjabiyat or Punjab from Pakistan who have any deep rooted blind hate hatred for India that we often see here. reverse of it is also true.

Anyway..Today something very interesting happened. A friend called: Hey I am in Dr. sunita kapoor`s (partially made up name)clinic...that scared me for a second. Are you ok? anything wrong that you calling from her office? ..oh no nothing wrong. We were talking and she wanted to learn Punjabi and I mentioned your name to her. Here talk to her. I did not even know her. Don`t even know who she is...anyway we talked for a while. She wants to learn reading Punjabi was well as write and speak well. I had many questions of course. She is Punjabi, I can tell from her name..Then why does she not know Punjabi and why she wants to learn now? Well Long story short. She grew up in south western part of India where her father was in service. While growing up she learned Hindi and English and other local language to some extent but not Punjabi. Se knew she was from Punjab but her interaction was mostly with non punjabis. Now that she is grown up..and she first time dealing with so many Punjabis here in a foreign land she is trying to find her roots. One of reasons she want to learn writing/typing Punjabi is so that she can write a letter to her grandfather who still lives ourside of Punjab in India but knows Punjabi. I could hear this desire to accomplish this to please her grandpa...almost sounding like an excited kid..I want to write to him in Punjabi..he will be so happy and proud of me.
This is what keep me going........

Dilshad:
I am heading over to your neighborhood for some hangama and badtameezee. :) Bringing twenty of my boisterous friends along.
Dulla:
Agree with you about Panjabis not being proud of their language. Have seen many a people in Chandigarh as well as here in the U.S. using Hindi as their lingua franca. Seems like its the ``stylish`` thing to do. Convergently, have met a lot of West Panjabis who speak Urdu in public, and look quite comfortable doing so. In private, many admit they`d rather be yakking in Panjabi, however.
Sadna:
You are desperately trying to dig yourself out of the quagmire you`ve help create for yourself. Its quite amusing to see you squirm. lol. And as far as the newspapers are concerned, yet again you reveal your naivete. Don`t tell me you`ve never heard of ``political agenda``. If you still believe that news media (regardless of what country we are talking about) is impartial and nonpolitical, then you have managed to make me laugh.

#60 by sameerJB on May 19, 2003 8:19pm PT
”m_souza:
Indians do argue each other as vigorously as Pakistanis but for some reason, perhaps not to give the impression of division among Indians dealing with Pakistanis. However, dealing with the official policies of Pakistan is very different than dealing with average Pakistanis. The open minded Pakistanis are as liberal, secular, peaceniks as their Indian counterparts. I must say that your interaction at this thread is much less aggreessive as your image on other threads and I truly appreciate that. “

I do appreciate what you are trying to say. And I agree to some extent..
But we are not concerned about impression of division among Indians, as you said....because we Indians can’t hide our true selves even if we want to...

With the amount of freedom given to the Press in India, I feel there is hardly any issue that can remain a secret in India. Even a PM or a President can’t get away with anything…and so the general public also responds accordingly…freely....so if some Indian expresses his/her very open views in India..it is not a sin..or a punishable crime..

Similarly..in our discussions at chowk.. Indians are our genuine selves(mostly)....its not that we are cautious at chowk…in reality too..Indians as such in general don’t have too much of problem with another Indian. I mean from their childhood we are so much used to living and working in a society which offers them an extreme form of diversity that we have actually become very tolerant..without even us realizing…
Only now if I look back and remember my school/college days, I can distinguish and realize that I had such a huge variety of friends, religions, languages, food habits around me..but this was never an issue as we never ever think we are different. Same in our offices and work place.


Like I feel: “My country India, is the foremost for me and so I accept the national language Hindi. I accept its unity in diversity. Then comes my state ..my religion..or my state language…and then me”

I think, Every Indians feel the same way or at least tries to...
I have attended a few of the meetings by Vishwva Hindu Parishad (sometimes known for their extreme views)..and was very surprised and pleased to see that they started their prayers..by worshipping and remembering brave Sikh gurus, Guru Gobind singh, Guru Angad Dev (whose sacrificed his sons to Aurangzeb) and Guru Nanak dev ji…

Such is our amity… And yet, sometimes things do go wrong between us Indians but not for long..we always forgive and forget…but the world outside India remembers..doesn`t it?

I know I have strayed away from discussing about Punjabiat..but this is what we keep doing in real life..mixing up our nationalism and state identity..

To all Indian Punjabis..
I feel if we Indian Punjabis can be more united whether we are Hindus or Silkhs or anything else..then we can work together for the progress of our state ..which is in a way progress of our country..

sadna, dullabhatti, dost-mittar, ajeet and others:
I don`t know about you but I really enjoy the discussion here. I hope to see it continue. Imust also thank Ajeet for providing an opportunity to discuss, misconceptions, prejudices, fears and yo my utmost disgust, characters like Dilshad opening mouth with some stereotypical comments about 120-130 million people in two lines, ignoring that 2 out of 5 Noble laureates of subcontinent are Panjabis and countless Panjabi contributions to agriculture, music, movies, academic excellence, literature, government, sacrifices and armed forces.

I would like to point out two things in this post and that must be remembered before making any comments regarding Panjabi language or Panjabi people. One is that on only two ocaasions in our long hisotry, did Panjabis took part against the interests of subcontinent or India/ Pakistan. One is 1857 mutiny and other 1980`s Sikh revolt under Bhindranwale. In 1857, jury is still out there if it was an attempt for independence or to kick out British. I tend to believe that its sucess would not have given any independence in any sense. The Mughal king would have to be accepted or several independent states within subcontinent in case of its succeeding. Moreover, just 10 years before, non-Panjabi forces fought for British in Anglo-Panjabi wars and defeated them all the way to the surrender at Lahore darbar. Additionally, it is misconception that mutiny failed because of Panjabi soldiers. It failed because of incohesive nature, haphazardness, no planning and no central authority.

The BhindraNwale was an intra-Indian affair with a small number of Panjabis taking part but most of the sufferings were born by innocent Sikhs who had nothing to do with it.

I forgot to mention one more event. It was epic Mahabharata when most Panjabis are believed to have sided with Kauruvas and defeated.

Now looking at these three events, no sane person can conclude that Panjabis have any particular characteristic deemed anti state to India and Pakistan. Actually I am convinced that for whatever reason and whenever, if ever, the political map of India and Pakistan is redrawn, Panjabis would not be the first, not the second, not the third, more likely the last to abandon ship. As Pardesi pointed out, we are land-locked, though north and west have natural boundries - mountains. Having said it, I must also state that Panjabi fortunes are on the rise alongwith Kannada, Maharashtra, Tamil, Telegu and Urdu-speaking in Pakistan. It is creating asymmetry in many ways. The economic success is not across the board and that might be a troubling area 50-100 years down the road. We can discuss the reasons for this asymmetrical economic changes but hardly anybody can suggest it conspiratorial. As sadna pointed out, it stops at middle-class and given the large poor class, the economic disparity is likely to go up and could create social upheavels. In this environment of world order according to Bretton-wood, poor are likely to remain poor much longer. Panjabis are loyal to India and Pakistan at one level and transnational at another. The out migration from subcontinent during the last 20 years is disproportionally Panjabis. It has its own effect, good economically but unknown as yet politically.
Therefore, it is not such an open and shut case as many of us would like it to be.

The second area deals with Panjabiat, or more specifically Panjabi language and partition riots. This is very very important to understand for those who blame Panjabis for rioting and uncouth behavior and what-not. Not only that rioting took place because of partition as dullabhatti made it clear, Panjabi culture or language played no role in it. You can take this case to any forum any court of law or even international court of justice to find culprits behind the rioting and Panjabi language or culture will be acquitted of all charges. The roiters did not go after Panjabi speaking or bhangra dancing or saag-corn bread eating and letting go paan eating, sherwani wearing etc. They went after Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims in dividing Panjab. So the blame rests with rioters, political pundits manipulating political climate, religions abd bad luck for being at the wrong place at the wrong time. How in the hell, did Panjabi language play any role in it? It beats me. Most likely it saved few lives with the help of Mustafas and Ruxanas of this article. So if some people are homesick now or back Panjabiat or socialize on language base identity, it is not a sign of fear of revisiting 1947 or threatenng national boundries but quite the opposite. It is madrassa culture, fundamentalist, jehadis, hardliners who, no matter what language they speak, threaten a return to bloodshed and divide people on the basis of their great great grandparents religion.

However, it might have getting out of hand ramifications if unnecessarily scapegoated or supressed. You did not but we (Pakistanis) did pay the price in the form of bloodshed and Bangladesh creation. The seeds of separation were sowed by not giving Bengali the right place in Pakistan.

Now, why it took so long to finally give Panjabi second language status in New Delhi with majority Panjabi population for a long time and that also on demand from World Panjabi Conference.

sadna, yes WPC went ahead anyway but without its president, Fakhr Zaman and many more Panjabi activists. Perhaps you don`t know that most of the demands of Panjabi conferences deal with P-Panjab and it takes the zing out if they are not present. Without Fakhr Zaman, Ahmed Saleem, Shafqat Tanveer Mirza, it is no fun. You may do a google search for Ahmed Saleem or Fakhr Zaman and notice thm a step ahead of even Asma Jahangir and Pervez Hoodbhoy on Indo-Pak issues.

The Panjabi supported newspapers like The Friday Times and Times.com speak for themselves. You know the kind of articles they publish as dullabhatti posted one article from Times. You might have read Pakistani equivalent of Kuldip Nayar, a pucca paindoo from Chakwal, the Dawn columnist and Imtiaz Alam of ``The News``. It is a fact that Pakistani Panjabi intellegentia is very soft, almost friendly towards India, and so are many Panjabi columnists in India with soft corner for Pakistan.

The Pakistani Ambassador to India in 1950, Raja Ghazanfar Ali Khan was a feudal from Jhelum, Panjab. dost-mittar would attest his softness towards India. The Panjabis hugging each other at cricket match at Lahore during 1950 might have made Pakistani establishment so nervous that they introduced religion in direct way into politics and doubled their efforts of indoctrination and textbook guidelines etc. The slogan, Pakistan ka matlab kya was also popularized after 1950 although known from partition days.

soysauce #68
`` It presumes that whatever public position that Gujral or Nayar have taken on the issues you outlined are widely publicized at least to the extent of reaching you.I don`t think this presumption can be correct. ``

You could be right and I will be happy to be proved wrong, but Kuldip Nayar is a regular columnist in a national newspaper, IK Gujral is a former prime minister who is still quoted on other issues- (and perhaps his son was trying to enter Punjab politics too). There has been sufficient opportunity for them to get the word out on any issue.

It could just be that these subjects are not in their particular sphere of interest/expertise, I just wish they were.

And it could be part of a general apathy. The last time I read of Sikh/Punjabi/Gujarati immigrants being confined in Guatemala (which apparently earns money from INS doing so) and awaiting deportation, was in a foreign newspaper, not an Indian newspaper. Indian newspapers are more interested in Je Lo`s wardrobe or Saddam Hussein perhaps.

sadna:
People did not offer a rebuttal because, like me, they have not been following the statements of these people closely on these and other issues.

Dilshad, veer haan bach ke rahiN asiN jehRa vi banda nazar aawe ohnu maar suttday aan.

Sadna, to your point why Gujral and Naiyar are not interested in issues particularly related to Indian Punjab: They can tell you better but my impression is that inspite of dozens of people of Punjabi origin in national level politics and some influential beurocratic positions due to their personal capabilities, advocating any kind of cause for Punjabis in New Delhi has been a politically incorrect thing to do for any politician or beaurocrat with ambitions beyond Punjab. Even if they felt in their heart they restrained from saying anything in parliament. Only 2 MPs from Punjab since I am aware of had spoken for Punjabi issues Balwant Singh Ramoowalia and Jagmeet Brar. Jagmeet inspite of in head on collision with Akali magnet Badal for 2 generations have not gotten any power with in his party, congress for the very same reason - his outspoken views on Punjab are not very welcome by his party. I think he is the best parliamentarian reprsentative Punjab have had in long time.

This twisting of tongues by Punjabis when comes to Punjabi issues is even evident here on Chowk. Many of them might have pro-punjabi feelings but they don`t let them get in their way.
I have met so many Pakistani Punjabis who privately admit that they are saddened by the fate being met to Punjabi language but they won`t dare to say so in a public Pakistani forum. It is akin to suicide for them.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_18-5-2003_pg3_2

Op-ed: Let Punjabis show the way to peace

These days the governments of India and Pakistan are making sensible moves towards normalisation of relations. We can only hold our breath and hope that this time the spoilers, who are well-entrenched on both sides and are proud to be known as hawks, will not gain the upper hand and bring to nought the positive statements and friendly gestures of preceding weeks by taking maximalist positions that the other side cannot possibly accept.

Past efforts by the governments of India and Pakistan have followed a set pattern. Hopes have been raised high with the heads of the two governments meeting and proclaiming an end to the era of confrontation and the opening of a new chapter in their relations which would include easing of travel facilities and expansion of trade. An important feature of such declarations has been the acknowledgement that the Kashmir dispute (the Indians prefer to call it an “issue”) needs to be resolved peacefully. Thereafter, nothing substantial happens and after a while things go awry.

Just to recall the latest such events, it was in February 1999 when things looked truly bright on the peace front. Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee had made the historic visit to the Minar-e-Pakistan where he publicly acknowledged that despite opposition to the idea of Pakistan the Hindu nationalist forces were now ready to accept the reality of Pakistan. But the architects of Kargil had other plans and a wasteful border war left hundreds of young men dead and wounded on both sides.

Another opportunity arose at the time of the Agra Summit in July 2001. On that occasion the Indian side assumed an intransigent position only hours before a joint declaration was to be made by Mr Vajpayee and General Pervez Musharraf affirming their commitment to peace and friendly relations.

It is an old, well-established principle that when two antagonists cannot resolve their disputes and conflicts peacefully they are advised to invite a third party to mediate between them and find fair solutions. In this regard, Pakistan has been willing to accept third party mediation but India remains adamant not to submit their claims on Kashmir to any third party. As I have argued in earlier articles relating to Kashmir, the Indian and Pakistani positions on that dispute pertain to security and economic concerns. Unless we create a climate whereby both sides may learn to appreciate that their security and economic prosperity, along with that of the people of Kashmir, is actually enhanced from a rational sharing of its resources no real progress can possibly be made on Kashmir.

Under the circumstance, would it not be worthwhile to introduce new actors into the process of conflict resolution? These have to be found from within India and Pakistan. They should not be government officials and functionaries because that has already been tried unsuccessfully. It would also not suffice to have the annual meets of civil society actors such as the Pakistan-India Peoples Forum for Peace and Democracy in various Indian and Pakistani cities. The Forum has done much good work in the field but it is constrained by both the delegations upholding the official positions of their governments on Kashmir. The net result is that nothing happens that can break the deadlock.

I should like to propose an entirely new way of approaching India-Pakistan relations. Let the people of the two countries meet without any fixed political agenda to deal with. For a start it must be the Punjabis on both sides of the Wagah-Attari Border who need to be engaged in the peace process.

Contrary to the official rhetoric about the 1947 Punjab riots, my own research shows that most of the people of Punjab did not want to abandon their hearth and home and wanted to stay put despite their province being partitioned on the basis of religious majorities. Even when they were leaving their villages and towns they were hoping to return as soon as the communal madness was brought under control. That of course could not happen.

In the 1950s the Pakistan High Commissioner to India Raja Ghazanfar Ali Khan allowed East Punjabis to freely visit West Punjab during an India-Pakistan cricket match at Lahore. The people of Lahore and Punjab offered the visitors such moving hospitality and generosity that the bloody riots of only a few years earlier seemed to be an unreal nightmare. Grown up men of all religions were seen embracing each other and crying and asking each other for forgiveness.

It is my contention that under international law and the higher moral law deriving from the universal conscience, the right to visit one’s place of birth is an inalienable human right and must be granted to all human beings. In my interviews relating to the 1947 riots conducted recently in Pakistan, I was quite surprised how greatly Punjabi Muslims valued the right to go back and visit not only their homes but particularly their ancestral graveyards. Many of them want to go back at least once and offer fateha at the graves of their parents. They could not do that because at that moment the main consideration was to save their lives and quickly cross the border into Pakistan. The Hindus and Sikhs who fled West Punjab are equally emotional and they would like to visit their ancestral homes, schools and colleges.

I don’t believe for a moment that Punjabi Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Christians and others bear a permanent grudge against each other. On the other hand, my research shows that on both sides there is a realisation that India and Pakistan are two separate and independent states and they will and should remain so in the future.

There is no reason to fear that any open and unrestricted contact between the peoples of the two Punjabs will undermine the two-state solution that was agreed upon in 1947. On the contrary what is likely is that they will in their traditional wisdom generate enough good will that resolving the Kashmir dispute to the advantage of all the peoples of this region will appear to be the only sound option. So let’s allow Punjabis to meet and mix freely for three months.

The author is an associate professor of Political Science at Stockholm University. He is the author of two books. His email address is Ishtiaq.Ahmed@statsvet.su.se

Sadhana, various.
I think your stance is rather unreasonable. It presumes that whatever public position that Gujral or Nayar have taken on the issues you outlined are widely publicized at least to the extent of reaching you. I don`t think this presumption can be correct.

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dost-mittar #64

I think its cynical to say that I called IK Gujral and Kuldip Nayar anti-national.

I said they seem to care more for Punjabiyat when it comes to Pakistanis than when it comes in Indians and I explained that too in #49. I have not seen a rebuttal of that post.

These people are public figures, (who happen to be Members of Parliament currently) who take public stances as public representatives and we must accept that what public figures say or do will be discussed.

There seems to be a raging discussion here over a non-issue. No one suggested that the two Panjabs should become a separate country. And one may disagree with Kuldip Nayar and I.K.Gujral, but it would be cynical to brand them as anti-Indian while the types of sadna, myself or dullabhatti sit on judgements over them while eking our livelihood thousands of miles away from that country. Nayar and Gujral may be smitten by Panjabiyat (why shouldn`t they be?) but they also have first-hand experience of the partition and would be the first to oppose the idea of a united Panjab. What they and many of us yearn for is a time when Panjabis from both sides of the border can revel in their common cultural and linguistic heritage. This is no different from what happens between Bangladesh and Indian Bengal, without ever threatening the Indian union.
When some of us state that Panjabis bear the brunt of all fights between India and Pakistan, we are merely stating the obvious. If Lahore is nuked, can the fallout of an ill-wind on Amritsar be prevented? And it is also obvious to us that Panjabis on both sides will live more secure and stable lives if the threat of war between the two countries is reduced.
Panjabi peaceniks on both sides also realise that their brethren on each side of the border also tend to be quite belligerent (the sikhs on the Indian side are less so now but this is a recent phenomenon) and if the panjabis on the two sides can warm up to each other, they will act as a bridge between the two countries, not burn the bridges of either panjabis to their respective countries.

SameerJB:
The relative agreement among Indians on chowk is a funtion of the topics discussed on chowk; they mainly deal with islamic fundamentalism, Kashmir and India-Pakistan. On these issues, there is little disagreement among Indians, or Hindians to be more precise!