The Wheels of Time

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Sameer:
You are indeed correct regarding Alexander. I merely misread your statement. He did die of complications of typhoid fever as I had previously mentioned (my medical training forces me to do so!)
On the other hand, the Greek version of the Alexander/Porus affair seems more accurate, and I have always believed it to be so.
Thanks for keeping alive this debate regarding our common language.

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Pardesi Ji:
I think the discussion here has completed its natural course and came back to where it began, which happens to be most important thing to note for the sake of promotion and development of Panjabi language.

It is good to know history as precisely as possible by trying to be a passive observer. It is not easy but not impossible. The second thing is that when a discipline or an area starts upward momemtum, looking back too much actually slows down momentum. All one need is to be cautious not to fall victim to the mistakes of the past. Lessening importance to past also helps heeling the wounds of the past because our history really is a history of wounds after wounds for at least 1000 years. We have the option to continue it to 1100, 1200,.....years or find some commonalities and magnify them, even if it means turning few myths into virtual reality.

Panjabi language is a patch also to be placed on wounds for heeling. We should try to enlarge this patch to cover more wounds - to become an umbrella ultimately. Both religions and nationalisms have their own place. They are here to stay and so in Panjabi language. Islam is commonality to around 400 million people, Indian nationalism about a billion, Pakistani nationalism about 130 million, Hindi about 450 million and Panjabi about 130 million. None of these can be denied by using one against the other.

Then comes priorities. I tend to put culture above nationalism and religion but that is very personal. It has much to do with diasporic influence, scientific background leading to atheistic mind and worldwide beating my other two identities are taking. Without going further, I would definitely put religion last because Panjabis are divided into three major religions with little hope of religious tolerance and almost no chance of reconciliation towards respecting each other`s religion. That is why, I strongly oppose to bring Sufism as commonality between Sikhs and Muslims and Upanishads as commonality between Sikhs and Hindus. These commonalities, in my opinion, though real but easily manipulated from vested interests in the nationalism 1940s style. I have definite reasons to believe that Sufism is being used as a tool by an interest group.

I like it as secular and liberal and forward looking as possible. In order to do this, importance of history and blame game has to be reduced if not eliminated. I do not blame my mother for speaking and teachng Urdu, nor do I resent Hindus chosing Hindi and Muslims siding with Urdu at times in the past. One has to be in that environment to analyze why something happened the way it did. I do not see Panjabi had gone anywhere, if accepted by all, spoken by all but Muslims sticking with Sufi literature, Sikhs with Sikh liturgy and Hindus with somewhere in between. Just right to speak or more mothers speaking Panjabi to their children mean nothing. The language has to be developed, literature created, taught in schools, respected equally along with the rest, media in Panjabi, Panjabis taking pride and backing Panjabi and then if mother do not teach Panjabi, ask them why.

My mother right now has actually stronger case than me. All she has to ask me to show Panjabi newspapers, magazines, books, literature - given every mother would like her children to survive best in a particular environment. It has to be top down and not bottom up at least in P-Panjab.

Once mothers see the benefit of speaking Panjabi, all the way to lessening chances of his son being killed in nationalism causes, they will. The assumption of irreversibility of language trend is not true. Within one generation, Jews coming from all over the world to Israel accepted learned, created necessary media, literature, books etc in Hebrew.

Our lamentation at the plight of Panjabi language and anger at various historical developments in this field stem from the feeling of irreversibility. No such thing! It took me less than a month to reverse this trend of two generations and that too without proper backing or systematic learning. Everything I say here came really easy for me. It was not like getting Ph.D. in chemistry and almost 16/7 working in lab for 4 years.

Actually once a critical mass is created, its momentum accelerates things. I have seen meteoric rise of Panjabi music during last 15 years from AS Kang to lord knows how many now. The language part is really not foing to take long once awareness and determination is there. What else would come with it is what we had been discussing with Sadna. The ramifications at this stage can not even be somprehended. It could possibly be the most important stepping stone in undoing of many things in that region.

The ramifications of it wold have to take into account the beating Islam is taking and retreating. I seriously believe that the current state of it would last only another 15-20 years and Pakistan will be back at the level of 1960s and early 1970s. A solution to Palestine problem and fall of Iranian Islamic experiment would ring the end of this phase. The BJP phase in India might end sooner than that. The vacuum will be filled by exactly the opposite forces. That is where Panjabi language could play very important role. This is just a personal opinion and no need to be critical of it.

Dost Mittar Ji # 129
Janab, the situation you described (Punjabis abandoning their language) is indeed very sad. What can a mother do if children tell her that they have found a more modern mummy and they do not need her anymore? All she can do is cry, blame her Kismet and wish them well.
Best regards.

sameerJB #137

``the paradigm based on the nationalism (one or two) politics of 1940s is becoming less and less important, although right now they are still in majority. Its influence on the literature is no longer dominating.``

Sameer, the paradigm based on nationalism is still important, if not so much in politics, very much so in economy. The economy of Indian Punjab is very much tied to that of the Indian nation and the economy of Pakistani Punjab is very much tied to that of the Pakistani nation. While googling for language-related links, I found that in India, the purchasing power of Punjabis in Punjab is the highest of all the Indian states - and obviously this is related being tied with the Indian economy.

I am sure Punjabis` purchasing power can be even higher, but to dismantle the strong Punjab-India economic relationships formed since Independence in favor of purely bhaichaara-logic based political/economic links between Indian Punjab- Pakistani Punjab will be extremely messy and risky for all concerned.

So the conclusion is that future Indo-Pak Punjabi cooperation will need to be win-win-win-win to make sense to Punjabis, ie, it logically must be based not on emotion but must make good political/economic sense for all, ie winning of all parties India, Pakistan, Indian Punjab and Pakistani Punjab.

Given this conclusion, IMO there is no inherent contradiction between Indian `nationalism` and increasing Punjabi cross-border links - except the case where a few Punjabis screw up things for the majority Punjabis in pursuit of personal power, personal profit and personal ideology by adopting an anti-India stance on the Indian side or an anti-Pakistani stance on the Pakistani side.

This is exactly what I explained with example back in post #47 and #52 but noone was listening!

PS #134
``a spoken language, which was local - then there was a different literary language which was written, which was often the administrative/official language of the rulers too. ``

A corollary is, it requires political awareness in the population for them to demand to be ruled in the same language they speak! So increasingly democratic govts. will help local languages including Punjabi in Pakistan.

sadna:
I agree with you about standardization of a language from a bunch of dalects. Most sikhs, before the partition, spoke mostly one or were capable of speaking one particular accent, no matter they lived in Rawalpindi, Amritsar or Multan. The reason was standardization through Gurmukhi script. Before Gurmukhi script, this accent was actually spoken by a minority of Panjabis around Lahore, Qasur, GujraNwala and Sheikhupura. Once it was standardized, rest of Panjabi started calling it east Panjabi accent, becuse of large concentration od Sikhs in that area.

Since Muslim religion can not be used for standardization of Panjabi language, it has to come from backing of state level or adopting it as medium of basic education, like primary education.

In the past, very few people were literate - less than 10 percent (mostly male). We may discuss historical developments in this field and Hindi/ Urdu/ Persian vs. Panjabi over last 200 years but in fact, it really did not matter much. On top of that, making any language official, standardization and promotion meant this small segment of society mostly centered around big cities. Even the big city concept has to be looked in that period. The largest Panjabi city, Lahore has a population of 175,000 at the time of Maharaja Ranjit Singh, 1820s and 1830s. This is not a guess but official census figure, whatever scientific census it was. What was possible, Persian or Urdu, in 1820s for 175,000 people, is not possible for 7-8 millions now living in Lahore.

The Panjabi paradigm has been shifted much more during the last 100-150 year period than many other ethnicities due to sharp rise in their nationalism, economic success from almost nowhere compared to UP or Bombay Presidency. Nationalism in Panjab for Panjab was exclusively Sikh thing 150 years ago, now it is no longer restricted to them. The Panjabs of today are much more different than even the Panjab of 1940s.

Isn`t this what started all this healthy debate when I pointed out a trend of no longer writing stories about the miseries and sufferings of displaced people? Becuse latest conditions, changing and fast evolving demanded it. It is a kind of market forces at work in literature and thinking. Now 2 percent of panjabis live outside subcontinent with economic muscle equivalent of perhaps 10 percent, if not more. Another 2-3 percent are spread all over subcontinent. A person communicating from Karachi or Mumbai to London or New York is no longer intersted in wasting expensive per minute telephone charges on talking about partition related issues. They might be wasting it on saying over and over, ``hor sunao, ki haal ae`` [so, how are you doing].

The market forces in language politics in P-Panjab do not ahve level playing field. It can slow it but the momentum and necessity can not stop for long from P-Panjab coming at par with I-panjab in terms of accetance of language. The establishment fears it because of its ramifications beyond language. Well, if it can not be stopped for long, why not prepare better to deal with the ramifications? Why not give democracy, justice, freedom, respect, equality to all to make them feel more attached to current nationhoods.

I know it hurts you, but the paradigm based on the nationalism (one or two) politics of 1940s is becoming less and less important, although right now they are still in majority. Its influence on the literature is no longer dominating. Since partition effected Panjab more in many destructive ways, the challenge to offset the losses of partition after the shock of 50 years of coming to term with and licking the wounds should be and could be aggressively constructive - for Panjabis, Panjabi language, I-Panjab, P-Panjab, India and Pakistan.

jaggadaku:
I said, ``almost killed`` meaning wounded. This is well known fact from both Greek historians who wrote details of Alexander`s history. he was wounded below his armpit at the roof of the citadel of Multan. The citadel, though rebuilt, still stands and attraccts many visitors and tourists to the top where it happened. The Greek Historian wrot that he recovered from the wound in 2 weeks and continued moving south and then passing through Balochistan to Iran and dying in Babylon. However, local pride in Multan and many nationalists believe that hhe never fully recovered from the wound, immune system weakened and became susceptable to viral infection. Same pride in Panjabi nationalism is also behind the reviosionist view of his war with Raja Poros at the banks of river Jhelum. Greeks say, Poros surrendered but some desi intelligentia believe that it was a draw and matters settled at table between both, and actually tripling the area under Poros rule - adding area between chenab and ravi. Greeks say that Alexander was impressed by Poros replies to his questions and granted that area and his original empire back to Poros.

12-head #132
I heard somewhere(but didnot verify for myself) that even the ethnic troubles in Rwanda can be traced to British policy towards ethnicities when they were there. Secondly, donot forget electoral power plays havoc with the traditional equilibrium of multi-ethnic societies.



Sameer #131

Thanks for the references, they were informative. In the first one, this was interesting:

``The British annexed the Punjab in I 849. The official language used by the Sikhs, whom they had defeated, was Persian, though religious schools did teach Punjab in the Gurmukhi script (Adm Rep-P 1853:98). The question of a language policy became evident as the vernacular terms used by the officers in correspondence were often unintelligible to their superiors (Letter of the Secretary, Board of Administration to Commissioners under the Board, I April 1849 in Chaudhry 1977; I). The Board proposed that Urdu should be used as the official language of the Punjab, since it was already being used in Northern India where they were established (Chaudhry 1977:3). The Deputy Commissioner of Dera Ghazi Khan said that, whereas the ‘Moonshees, Moolahs, and other educated persons write Persian’, not a man out of his ‘sudder establishment understands Oordoo’ (Letter to the Commissioner of Leiah, 24 July 1849 in Chaudhry 17). The Assistant Commissioner of Muzaffargarh also argued that ‘the native officers, both Sudder and Mofussil, composed chiefly of Mooltanee are unable to write Oordoo while with Persian they are familiar’ ``


The whole story began with Sikhs preferring Persian:)!

Sameer, I believe that the situation all over India, was that there was a spoken language, which was local - then there was a different literary language which was written, which was often the administrative/official language of the rulers too.

This makes sense because most of the population didnot go to school so didnot learn a standard language and had its own local language. So Punjabi and its dialects were prob. the spoken languages while the literary language of the educated in the later period was Persian first/then Urdu - depending on who was ruling.

In a similar situation, my grandfather(in a princely state ruled by a Hindu raja) used Urdu as official/business language, though the language he spoke was KhaDi Boli (Hindi) perhaps influenced by the local dialect Brajbhasha. In the next generation of my parents, they didnot learn any Urdu(pre/postIndependence) and learned standardized Hindi instead while Brajbhasha remains just a neglected dialect local to the region- though it has contributed words to standardized Hindi and was a language of literature in the time of Surdas and Kabir.


Someone pointed out that in the 1991 Indian census, data was collected for 48 different dialects of Hindi alone! This distinction between literal and spoken, I remember being told by friends, existed for other languages like Tamil too - perhaps until the modern age when public education and increase in literacy required both spoken and written/literal versions to be reconciled and some standardization to be imposed. Thus for example though Tamil probably has/had a number of local dialects - but there would now be one version taken as the standard. Literacy is taking away variety!

Anyway, back to Punjabi in Pakistan, the irony is that we Indians need to make urgent efforts to similarly revive Urdu in India. If you ask IK Gujral, he probably rues the loss of Urdu in India more than he rues the loss of Punjabi in Pakistan.

Dulla re# 128
Philadelphia is the city of ``brotherly love``.

Sameer re# 127
Alexander actually died of complications of typhoid fever, not in a war.

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sadna #130:
I agree with you and ready to retrieve that portion. I got carried away in writing that part. State was, in fact, involved in Urdu language promotion during British time.

The Panjabilok article does not give the clear picture. Isn`t it true that different time, different problems and different solutions just as jihadic Islamic solution is no longer acceptable.

Anyway, I suggest you to read more comprehensive article than Panjabilok one at:

www.apnaorg.com

and read articles by Tariq Rehman on the top or by Manzur Ejaz near the bottom. I give you link to Manzur Ejaz`s article. Both of these people also write articles for The News, daily.

http://www.apnaorg.com/articles/manzur/pstatus2.html

The part 2 might be more interesting for you but they are not long articles anyway. No conspiracy, no evil intent, just conditions then and conditions now make all the difference.

Sameer #127
``Before Partition, people had no difficulty in communicating to each other in any language they wished. When it was not a problem to begin with, then why make it a probelm and then try to solve it. There was no need to make any language official in India and Pakistan to begin with. People would have sorted it out as they have done it for millenia. ``

This paper seems to have been written before the Rajiv-Longowal accord,
http://www.punjabilok.com/misc/terrorism/1.htm

THE LANGUAGE DIVIDE IN PUNJAB


``Prior to Independence, Punjabi Hindus used Urdu as the language of administration, commerce and journalism. Urdu was also the major language of literary expression in British Punjab while Punjabi was the spoken language. As Punjabi Hindus were mainly a mercantile urban middle class, they were enthusiastic users of Urdu. They were also struggling to procure political status for Hindi which would displace Urdu. In their eagerness to achieve this objective, they began declaring Hindi rather than Punjabi as their mother tongue in the censuses with the intention of gaining numerical precedence over Muslims and Urdu. Like the Hindus, and swayed by their leaders, Punjabi Muslims--who mostly spoke regional varieties of Punjabi--fought to maintain Urdu`s official status on the lower and middle rungs of civil administration and education.``

It says ``Prior to Partition, the Muslims had a slight majority over the Hindus in the united Punjab. The British rulers made Urdu a medium of school instruction and administration at the lower and middle levels with this in view``

``The Simon Commission had [earlier] rejected the demand of making Hindi or Punjabi the medium of instruction at primary level in the schools of British Punjab.``

and etc
---

It seems that in Punjab it was first a Hindi-Urdu struggle which became a Hindi-Punjabi struggle in post Independence India. It seems that things are coming a full circle - Punjabi in India has survived this full circle via Gurmukhi and the Sikhs, while the reason it will survive in Pakistan is ...?

Pardesi:
I was not talking about the second/third generation Panjabis settled in non-panjabi speaking states. I was thinking more particularly of Delhi, which is dominated by Panjabis in culture, trade and commerce and where Panjabis play a leading role in the two major political parties, the Congress and the BJP, although their proportion in population has declined in recent decades due to the migration of labour from U.P, Haryana, Bihar, Bangladesh, etc. Even in the mohallas dominated by Panjabis, such as Panjabi Bagh and Karol Bagh, children of Panjabi parents do not speak Panjabi any more. They are not facing any forces of assimilation, rather a voluntary abandoning of their language, which they associate with backwardness and `paindoo` culture ( as if we did not all come from one pind or another a few generations ago!). I understand the historical background to this rejection, which was the almost exclusively sikh-demand for a panjabi suba which was viewed by hindus (and in my opinion, correctly) as a demand for a sikh-majority state. But this is now history and there is no need for clinging to the old notions.
Recently, my sister-in-law visited us from Kurukshetra and remarked in astonishment, ``Do you still speak Panjabi at home?`` . This association of Panjabi with backwardness is alienating Panjabis, especially Hindus, from their own language. I have a constant struggle in this respect with my own relatives but, unfortunately, am no more successful than is SameerJB with his family.
This is not a trivial matter. If we give up on our language, being a Panjabi will be reduced to nothing more than fusion bhangra, dhabas and wedding songs.


SameerJB:
Yaar, aye kee nawaan kissa chherh ditta aie. This division into potohari, seraiki, etc. is almost certainly a recent phenomenon. I have talked to older panjabi immigrants from Pakistan both here and in India and none of them ever heard the words seraiki and potohari. They did use geographic terms like Multani, Jhangi, Lahori to denote local dialects but never had a separate linguistic identity. I am not so sure if dividing Panjabis along the lines of dialects (and there could be several on this side, like Majha, doaba, etc.) is any better than dividing them along religious lines.

stuka:
To me both Saraiki and Potowari are Panjabi accents and so are hindko and hazarvi, all the way to chinese border. I have traveled in those areas and communicated in Panjabi with them without any difficulty of understanding. But I do not determine who is called a Panjabi. If a person does not want to be called Panjabi, nothing I can do. There are some people and organizations, mostly headed and supported by former military officers in Potowar region who demand separate suba or at least some official recognition of Potwari as separate language.

Additionally, the tribal (or caste) make up of Potowar region is much different than Panjabis of central Panjab. They are more Rajput and Gujjars than Jats whereas Jatts dominate central Panjab. Within Rajput and Gujjars, the subtribal identities of Potowaris are different than same tribes in central Panjab, for example Janjua or Kiyani or gakkhar etc. Historically Potowar was more in limelight than Panjab with names like Taxila and Gandhara. The rise of Panjab owes it to more clearing of vegetation from the lands between rivers. Once land was cleared, it was now more prized than arid Potowar because of high water table, more rainfall and fertile land. Since Jats played leading role in clearing Panjab for agriculture and settlements, they became dominant in this region. Moving further south Saraiki belt is again desert and arid, so people did not have to clear as much land and had sizeable population even during Alexander invasion. Alexander was almost killed in a war in Multan on his way back. This is all very old history. With the arrival of foreign Muslim invaders, both Potowar and Panjab eclipsed by Afghans and Turks and small settlements along the road from Kabul to Delhi became more important. For next 700 years, they were mainly interested in Lahore and Multan but never created a decent road link between these two cities until British did it along with many other improvements and cities and city governments. Therefore the Potowars historical political association with Panjab is relatively short - since partition, during Maharaja Ranjit singh`s rule and British Raj. But not having any difficult barrier like mountains to separate, both areas had plenty of interaction as the common language suggests.

All languages start as accent of an existing one and create momemtum as in the case of romance languages to become Spanish, Portugese, Italian, French,........Similarly it is upto people, if they like to call it Panjabi or call it Potowari. Under democratic governments it is very unlikely to happen for the fear of losing panjabi votes but with the clean and honest military administrations after delivering justice to Okara villagers and amending the constitution in national interest, who knows what they do in their stupidity.

sadna:
That information is the result of reading variety of material from books, magazines and newspapers from Pakistan. Foreign press goes according to rule. If an area or a language falls within the borders of Panjab suba, it will be Panjab and Panjabi. They have no demand from their customers for such insight details about local level interest.

Take for example two major components of MMA or Islamists/ fundamentalists. Most of the cadre of JUI of Maulana Fazloo diesel is Pashtun or Pathan. The Jamaat-e-Islami of Qazi Hussain Ahmed has disproportionately more Urdu speaking. It used to be even more before MQM took away most of the Urdu speaking vote from them. Look at the individuals and parties who regularly win in the areas bordering India along almost north-south 1000 miles in Panjab and Sindh. You would not find a single MMA candidate winning except in Lahore and that because of support from NS in order to beat pro government Quisling league.

MMA government has passed or about to pass a bill making Urdu official language of NWFP - for people half Pashtun, half Hindko. While Urdu speaking are no more anti India than others and their liberal seculars are really liberal secular, Urdu language has been perceived to be tied to Islam, TNT and independence movement and that is why MMA is for it in NWFP. I guess, official media, Islamists and establishment use this linkage without the approval of people who speak it. Otherwise people of Karachi would not approve of it and no benefit to them by making it official language in NWFP.

And what is national or provincial language anyway if all official business is carried out in English. All what is left for official backing is to back it on government cotrolled media and public schools. Why can`t governments leave it alone? Before Partition, people had no difficulty in communicating to each other in any language they wished. When it was not a problem to begin with, then why make it a probelm and then try to solve it. There was no need to make any language official in India and Pakistan to begin with. People would have sorted it out as they have done it for millenia.

Some very good read in last few posts(mostly after I left yesterday:-))..just had a big lunch feels like putting my head on laptop and going to sleep like a baby.
Anyway..quickly..Ajeet: janab which is the city of brotherly love? sanu te ikk da ee pata ay - San Francisco!:-). In fact there is some serious brotherly love going on between brother dullabhatti and brother Mithu Mian from Lahore this weekend. I hope it does not pose any serious threats to the security and integrity of India and Pakistan - after all kaRahi chicken, saag gosht and tandoori roTi is more dangerous than missiles.:-)

Sameer:

``liked your arrival like a bang with four posts. sounds like Panjabi baraat reaching bride`s house with fire crackers, dhol and bhangRa. I thought in hospitality business holidays (it is Memorial day weekend) are more busy than the rest. ``

LOL!! That is just my ishtyle. Regarding job, I am in the corp HQ of hotel company doing ecommerce strategy. So, no connection to hotel operations any more. Just a regular office job.

I see your point about cultural contribution of the left. That is true of Indian Punjab as well. I don`t mind leftists righting poems as long as they keep away from bureaucratic control of economy.

#118 by stuka

Thanks for the praise and suggestion. However did you read the version of the story as it is today. In this version every punjabi dialogue has the english translation in the brackets. Keeping the orginal in punjabi is important because some of the phrases can not be really translated. The English translation can at best be an approximation.

Sameer,

Your are as usual a treasure trove of knowledge on any subject but specially Punjab and Punjabi. I have the same question as stuka. My family came from the area between Pindi and Chakwal and there is no question we considered ourselves as hardcore Punjabi. I have heard of the term Pothwar, but I am not sure it was applied to our area. What exactly is Pothawar. I assume it is the higher ground towards the mountains.

I also read Sadna`s last post and woa, is there a difference. Earlier she was ready to banish us from our hearth and home without a yard of land. I am glad we are back in her good graces.

I am away from home, down here in the city of brotherly love. Will post again if have time.

stuka:
For Panjabi culture, most of the contributions in P-Panjab owe it to leftists. Even in I-Panjab, leftists contribution to Panjabi literature is an undeniable fact. They performed poorly in government and economy and I grant you that, but I don`t demonize them. I support their cultural cause and not political, although I would support them anytime over Islamists and fundamentalists.

Except for Sufi literature, left of center writers contributed to probably 90 percent of literature in P-Panjab.

More than Nawaz Sharif, his brother Shahbaz Sharif was the best Panjabi chief minister ever. NS was not a bad one except for his Islamic bent and trying to pass Sharia amendment to the constitution. He was surrounded by some of the brightest sons of former Panjabi politicians who did not do corruption but his buddies from Lahore were not that good.

I agree with economic bridge being most important but you always start from the easiest and doable quickly, the things that can be changed by the strike of a pen like granting more visas, like cultural exchanges, like changing policies not to demonize each other in the media and so on. Reach most important changes becomes unlikely while hangups with the simple and easily doable things continue. Economic cooperation is still faster than education. Education takes at least ten years to make a difference in relationships or improving literacy levels.

I liked your arrival like a bang with four posts. sounds like Panjabi baraat reaching bride`s house with fire crackers, dhol and bhangRa. I thought in hospitality business holidays (it is Memorial day weekend) are more busy than the rest.

sameerJB #117
The information you give in your post, please tell me where is this information available to Indians like me , is it published in any edition of Encyclopadia Britannica that we will know about it? Kindly donot mistake lack of information as anti-Punjabi prejudice.

msouza #114
The current Punjab state was created after the 1965 war as a result of the longstanding demand for a Punjabi-speaking Sikh majority state.

By local I meant NJ and yes Narendra Chanchal. The early morning pravachan by a sadhvi in TV also often expounds on Bulleh Shah(I have not heard it myself).

Pardesi #116
I understood enough of the uncomfortable position of Punjabis in other parts of India during the Punjab insurgency not to want to see anyone in that situation again.

``Pakistan where there are 60-65 % Punjabis and the language is on death row.Now, do you see the need for cross-border 24/7 bhangra or mela to win back our brethren :)? ``

OK, I understand now. Its hard to understand however how a language spoken by the majority can be on death row :(.

Well, Mr Fakhar Zaman sounds a little hopeful:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_22-5-2003_pg7_26

Anway good luck with your efforts.

Sameer JB:

Why refer to Potohar as if it is not part of Punjab? As Ii understand it, Chakwal is Puthwari, but it is definitely considered part of Punjab. People from there are Punjabi speaking.

Dulla Bhatti:

``If nationalism based on Kashmiriyat, Punjabiyat, Assamese, Telgu etc etc is bad why is it so good based on Hindi? Urdu? Islam? etc? ``

Very true. Man I missed out on this discussion. I read the story when it was published first and I loved it. I had thought of posting a reply but forgot and just came back. Anyway, Ron Jeremy sends his regards.


Ajeet: Sorry, I am a bit late in the day. But as usual I loved the storey itself. Oone suggestion/question..theere is a fair amount of Ppunjabi dialogue though the story is in English. I am Punjabi so Ii have no problem understanding it. But to go to a wider audience, consistency in language would be good. There is a book I read some time back called Nation of Fools which is about Hindu Punjabi refugees who settled in Chandigarh at the time of it`;s construction. The author has mantained the Punjabiyat even when using English by doing a literal translation.

eg `` Oye, you do your reading writing`` the father said to the son. May you can use that tool to mantain the cultural aura but in English language.

Sadna:

``No, I question their Punjabiyat if it doesnot extend to concern for Indian Punjabis.

How many times have they raised the question of Punjabi farmers` suicides in Parliament?

How many times have they discussed crop insurance or salination of aquifers? Have they addressed patent issues facing India in WTO wrt the crops grown in Punjab?

How many times have they raised the question of Punjabi youth are found dead in ship containers, or trapped in Europe or Mexico due to illegal migration and unscruplous body smugglers? ``

Vvery true. Gujral and his ilk are the same as Nawabs of Cow Belt. They have no genuine concern for Indian Punjabis in real terms. Only dream about Falettis and and poetry.

I would rather vote for Tohra than Gujral even though Tohra is a big haraami.

Sameer:

``These people are all left-of-center and most understanding and friendly towards India.``

See, rest is all good but I don`t like the usage of left of centre people. These comrades have run havoc in East Punjab. Gujral and the commie Harkishan Singh Surjeet have not done anything for Punjab.

Now, an assumption is always made that right wing are religious fanatics and left wing are Kumbaya singing peaceniks. Both assumptions are untrue. The biggest, strongest and most long lasting bridge that can be made between Indian and Pakistani Punjab is that of the economy. That is why Nawaz Sharif was the best PM of Ppakistan from Indian perspective. And similar bridge builders on Indian side can be the Lalas and the Bhappas. Not the Jatt based religious fanatics of the Beyjaat Comrades.

Pardesi:

``In case of Punjabi, she just exhibits “Doodh ka jalla Chhachh bhi phoonk phoonk ke peeta hai” syndrome ``

Very true. Never thought of it that way but it makes perfect sense. Also, the same syndrome maybe explained Hindu preference for Hindi during Punjabi Suba days.

#112 by sadna on May 22, 2003 8:12pm PT
``I forgot to mention:
In the local Goddess Durga temple, they sing Bulleh Shah in Punjabi.``

local? where?
Mata ki bhentein are in Punjabi..by Chanchal...he has that bulle shah style..indepth singing
At Vaishno devi, jammu.. the shradhaloos are punjabis, even sikhs.. in a great number...rather majority...
Same devi in Bengal would fetch mostly bengalis...

Dost-Mittar Ji:
Guru Granth sahib in Punjabi script has bonded our religion, language, and primary identity to the land of Punjab no matter where we live. As you indicated, this has and will preserve the language. However, this commingling of religion, culture and language does not fit neatly into the new paradigm of what systems folks call “layered architecture” (keeping national identity, religion, culture in separate airtight compartments). Prime example was how simple farmers’ demands coming from “wrong podium” were easily misunderstood and manipulated by local and national leaders with disastrous results.

By the way, NRPs (Non resident Punjabis) spoke Punjabi at home at least in MP where we migrated after ’47. However, you are right that now forces of assimilation will take its toll and my relatives’ children are slowly giving up Punjabi as unnecessary burden.

On the other hand, let’s not be too greedy :). As I understood from one of DullaBhatti’s post, new immigrants from UP in Punjab are attending government schools and learning Punjabi and will compensate for losses due to “elite” giving up Punjabi in Punjab and in other Indian states.

M Souza sahib:
I could not agree more with your various posts. Let’s bury the past and move forward. If we can be open minded with our brethren in P-Punjab for the sake of our future generations, why discuss past mistakes by any one in India?

Sadna Ji:
As M Souza pointed out in his post, we just found your earlier post on deporting Punjabis from various states as offensive since various interactors were only talking about punjabiat (cross-border Punjabi mela?). The folks were not talking about breakaway Punjab or anything.

I do not have any issues with I-Punjabi borders or fear for the language or culture or religion. In fact, Punjabi is doing much better in India with 4-5 % official speakers as opposed to Pakistan where there are 60-65 % Punjabis and the language is on death row. Now, do you see the need for cross-border 24/7 bhangra or mela to win back our brethren :)?

One more thing and I guess it’s hard for non-Punjabis to understand it. You see, when you non-Punjabis see Jihadis from P-Punjab your reaction is kill those baste*ds and put up a Chinese wall so that you never have to see “those guys” again. We I-Punjabis on the other hand feel - Yes, stop those guys, wipe out the camps in Pakistan if we can, kill them as last resort in order to stop them but please do not think of walls. They are our misguided brethren. It’s like your own son or brother who is drunk and you want to reform him and bring him back to the family. Non-family “law and order” people will like to wipe out the guy with no emotions. There is no way for you to understand the emotional pull that we Punjabis feel for each other irrespective of how cruel we have been to each other in ’47. You non-punjabis are indeed lucky that your misguided souls are within borders and you are not required to hate them.

sadna #111:
[I am unable to understand why if I mention that LeT and JeM are Punjabis and that the CIA factbook says 48% of Pakistan speaks Punjabi, I am called anti-Sikh, anti-Punjabi and anti-Indo-Pak cooperation. What am I missing here? ]

Nobody has called you anti-Panjabi or anti-Sikh just because of such statements because it is pick-and -choose based. LeT is based near Lahore, in Mridke, mostly wahabi, funded by Saudi wahabis in part, is perhaps mostly Panjabi, but not the largest terrorist organization. They played no role in the recent defeat of Taliban in Afghanistan because Saudis did not want it. Possible members 1000-2000.

JeM is headed by Maulana Azhar. Like Maulana Azim Tariq from Jhang of Sipah-e-Suhaba, an anti-shia group, he is a settler in Bahawalpur after partition, perhaps coming from east Panjab. His madrassah education and his influence as well as JeM`s headquarter is in Karachi. He is the product of Banori Town madrassah of Karachi. Possible membership 1000.

The largest terrorist organization is HeM headed by and mostly Pashtuns but you did not mention it because it does not help making anti-Panjabi case. The second largest jehadi group and actively took part in recent defeat in Afghanistan is also a mostly Pashtuns from Chitral, Maulana Shafi Mohammadi, called TNSM (Tehrik-e-nifaz-e-shariat-e-Mohammadi). You did not mention it either because that would have diluted anti-Panjabi case through LeT and JeM. Penty of dead bodies of terrorists used to come from war in Afghanistan and plenty come from Kashmir to Karachi. At least half of Al-Qaeda fugitives are captured from Karachi.

Sure, plenty of terrorists are Panjabis but Punjabiness is not a reason to become terrorist than any other ethnic group. Having few thousand terrorists in a population of more than 70 million does not suggest strong anti-India feelings among Panjabis than the rest or vice-versa.

On non- terrorist organizations you mentioned a mostly Potwari Army as mostly Panjabi (perhaps forgot to mention police in Sindh and Karachi too which is heavily Panjabi) but did not mention other large state organizations which are less Panjabi than their percentage in Pakistan. WAPDA (Water and Power Development Authority) with more than 100,000 employess is disprportionally Pashtun. Pakistan Railways is disproportionally Urdu-Speaking of Bihar origin. PIA (Pakistan International Airlines) and PSMC (Paskistan Steel Mills Corporation) are also disproportionally Urdu-Speaking mainly because based in Karachi. Make sure I am talking disproportionate to their percent in Pakistan and not absolute majority.

At Karachi Stock Exchange, now about 60 percent companies could be called Panjabi though again they includes Saraiki and Potowari. However this has happened only during the last 15 years. Before that most companies were Karachi-based, although it does not mean Urud-Speaking but proividing employment there.

The point is when you selectively pick LeT, JeM or Pakistan army`s non-comissioned ranks to make a point of Panjabiness, it sounds unfair and intentions suspicious. That is what, IMO you seem to be missing.

Sadna...just go through all your previous posts..not the recent ones..then see how you reacted in the beginning...talks of deporting the punjabis etcetc..
The `us` and `them` attitude you had..where punajbis are `them`....

Otherwise..What have Indian Punjabis to do with Paki punjabis...I mean we are a s different or as similar as Bangladeshi bengalis and Indian bengalis..or paki gujratis and indians gujratis...or sindhis of both sides...

But then of course..we have to a lot to do with them ....we are tied to each other forever through common border..we bear the brunt when ever anything unsavoury happens at the border

Ok lets forget this debate...futile...

MERA BHARAT MAHAN

JAI HIND


Tipu ji is happily busy pointing out how lowly the punjabis are in their low-paid army ranks. ....nako tipu??

MERA HYDERABAD MAHAN

#110 by sadna on May 22, 2003 6:48pm PT

``The Punjabi suba came into existence before I was born``

I suppsoe pardesi(and later me) were talking abt 1984 not the making of suba in 1947...when we said..``doodh ka jal chach bhi...``
I suppose you were around in 1984, I was..but was not around in 1947...

I forgot to mention:
In the local Goddess Durga temple, they sing Bulleh Shah in Punjabi. In most Indian music stores I have seen, alongside music of most Indian languages, they sell music of Pakistani Punjabi singers. When Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan was alive, he was feted and celebrated in India - not just by Punjabis in N.Delhi or Punjab. But go ahead, call all these people anti-Sikh, anti-Pakistani, anti-Punjabi .

Pardesi #105
``Indian nationalists were hurt by muslims and the league in’47 and any sign of reasonable demands from minorities (as was the case of Punjabi Suba demanded by Sikhs) makes them very uncomfortable. This sub-conscious discomfort on inter-border Punjabi movement is symptom of same uneasiness. ``

What demands?

The Punjabi suba came into existence before I was born. Sorry if the borders of the said suba donot please you, but thats history and politics -harsh history and politics which we had to accept just like Hindu-Muslim bitterness in the entire country due to the millions killed in Punjab and Bengal at Partition.

Punjabi is a scheduled language in the Indian Constitution. The official language in Punjab is Punjabi, which is taught in all goverment schools. There are about a 100 Punjabi-language dailies, 300 Punjabi-language weeklies and 200 monthly publications. There is a Punjab Sahitya Akademi just like Sahitya Akademis for other languages.

There are at least 4 or 5 Punjabi language TV channels - including the official Doordarshan Punjabi regional channel. Punjabi pop is mostly what one hears on Indian pop radio stations in NAmerica or even at any Indian party even if noone speaks Punjabi.

Apart for the recent visa denial, please explain (without going back to 1947) why you think Indians or the Indian government have any conspiracy against the Punjabi language or Indo-Pak Punjabi links NOW in 2003.

And what more do you want from nonPunjabis wrt the Punjabi language? That we must not dare mention the Punjabi composition of the Pakistani Army or fundamentalist groups ? How reasonable is that?

Sameer, msouza
I am unable to understand why if I mention that LeT and JeM are Punjabis and that the CIA factbook says 48% of Pakistan speaks Punjabi, I am called anti-Sikh, anti-Punjabi and anti-Indo-Pak cooperation. What am I missing here?

#105 by Pardesi on May 22, 2003 3:52pm PT
``In Punjabi suba days, hindus were so paranoid that they use to tell the census workers in Punjabi that their mother tongue is hindi (“Sadi bhasha hindi eih jee”). ``

Haha..that was funny..telling in punjabi language that your mother tongue is not punjabi..
Anyway..I have seen `punjabi suba` days very very closely....through my eyes..being born and brought up in a modern city of punjab(guess?)..although I was at an age when I didn`t know anything abt politics..but i remember everything vividly. So..those sikh punjabis who were living in foreign countries..were not even born and brought up in punjab..and even during those days..they didn`t visit it..so for them it ws `just in the mind`.....the whole thing.
While we insiders experienced it first-hand..and if I start discussing with you ..I can clearly think now what went wrong in the whole system...why it all happened..?
I would like to tell Sadna and all..that Sikhs are the most loving and most caring, warm people..so whatever happened that time..they should not have `doodh ka jala, chach bhi fook..``.
If ever any hindus suffered or lost lives during sepratist movement in punjab..it was the hindu punjabis as we saw it first hand..... so why do hindus from other states form any judgements..while we don`t? And maybe sikhs were right in many of the things they said, although a separate country was not an answer..more autonomy, more rights and respect was..and still is...

My conclusion is..hindus of punjab were not at all interested in a separate suba..they didn`t have any future there..and also most of those sikhs who were residents of india didn`t want a `punjabi suba` too..only some of those residing outside india created such an atmosphere that everybody was paranoid..
Now ..as you may know..hindu punjabis never had anything against sikhs..as per history...rather..`gur-sikhs` came from hindu punjabi faimilies only...with same surnames still..
So where do such hindus go if punjab was shaky???
It was a tough state of mind for hindus..to see some sikhs asking for a separate state and to disagree with them ..it was kind of unbelievable..they used to worry..where shall we go? afterall..isn`t punjab ours too??

So hindu punjabis knew that their future would be with india as they wouldn`t ever be going tolive in a separate suba..so they wanted to proove their loyalty towards india..to be accepted.

Ohh ..it is a long discussion..of things long long gone by..things that have been restified and fixed now..

Taking ownership of our language is one thing. But can`t one speak punjabi and be an Indian at the same time?
Pardesi ji..if we as punjabis or you as a particular community do ever feel that you want more rights..ask for it....find your rightful place while staying in the country..why should you leave your country??? We as punjabis have fought for our country..for centuries...it is our country. We punjabis have suffered during partition...it is our country...OK??
Why should we be deported by Sadna?? Why can`t we deport her???
IT IS A COUNTRY YOURS AND MINE..FOR ALL .....WHY SHOULD ANY ONE STATE HAVE A FULL RIGHT ON IT? WHY SHOULD ANY ONE PART OF INDIA EVER FEEL THEY HAVE MORE RIGHTS..
AND MOST OF ALL..GIVE LOVE TO YOUR COUNTRYMEN..(AND WOMEN..HAHA)..AND IT WILL COME BACK TO YOU...that is how it works..I have tried it...

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Pardesi Ji: Thanks for your complements. I actually like Sadna because she can not be irrational for too long. What you witnessed here was looking at this topic from two different set of conditions. Hers, as you rightly pointed out is very Indian nationalistic and mine is based on worldwide flowering of multiculturism. I see the acceptance of much smaller groups by the world community but looked down in our part of the world and all kind of useless hurdles are put up to curtail them aginst few choicest ones - Islamic and Ganges Plains, with Islamic/ Arabic/ Afghan/ Persian mixed with Ganges plains in Pakistan and Ganges plains in India. I really thank Bengalis and Tamils for opening the clogged chanel for rest of us.

I also see diaspora Panjabis as another Panjabi suba whose interests must be heard.

soysauce: We are really concern about cultural issues here. But your questions are genuine and must be answered. I can only speak for myself and here is what I think:

I agree about the influence and political power of Panjabis in Pakistan beyond their provincial borders. I woud like to see it curtailed for the sake of justice and Pakistan. No Pakistani should feel ignored. To, me using ethnic muscles beying their own people is fascism. It should be done constitutionally and I support weak center, weak provincial governments and strong district governments. I would like to see many of cultural and educational issues in the full control of districts. If Multan district wants to promote Saraiki culture and teach in saraiki at primary level (because books in Saraiki would not be available for middle and high school for a while). Same for the districts of Karachi, Sindh, NWFP, Balochistan and Panjab. If Rawalpindi district wants to spent money on Potowari cultural academy, they should be able to do it without control from Lahore or Islamabad. There is nothing that can not be worked out.

There is a trade off for Panjabi influence at the expense of Panjabi language and culture. I do not like it because influence only helps elites who buddy-buddy with each other and peoples` heritage pays the price. No Panjabi elite has ever done anything for me being Panjabi, then why should I sacrifice my heritage for them to have influence.

Pakistan has used danda for too long. They have used it against Bengalis, for national language, for strong center, for Islam, for anti-India, for Kashmir and so on. The danda business has to be stopped and replaced with freedom - more than what Indian constitution offers to Indians because Pakistan internal security is less threatened by internal ethnic forces. Pakistan internal cohesion is much stronger than baseless assumptions of establishment elites.

Does this satisfy your query?

That was for Pakistan. For Pakistani diaspora, I support English plus one desi language. Since disapora is not ruled by some desi authority, it is voluntary. This is the way, in my opinion, to keep identity for little linger than all the mix ups of Islam, Pakistan, Panjabi, Urdu, Hindi for born and raised in diaspora. Too many identities and their complex relationship existing in subcontinent is a turn off and counterproductive for seldom or never visitors to Pakistan by Pakistani diaspora. Notice, Sikhs in diapora are much more cohesive because of just one language from motherland. Same goes for Gujratis but not for any group of Pakistanis. That is why they use religion to compensate for the drawbacks of the diluted cultural identification. Religion in diaspora has its own problems, particularly if it is pitted against majority culture at political, social and cultural levels. So why not make life easy. Find identities least colliding with host culture.

Pardesi:
Thanks for a wonderful post!
I don`t think that `Mama` is out of the woods yet! It is disheartening to see even the sikh children abandoning their mother tongue on the streets of Delhi. The irony is that while Panjabi culture, food and music, including the panjabi-hindi mixture of film songs are becoming ever more popular, panjabis outside panjab are not being very faithful to their Mama. Thank God for Guru Arjun Dev for compiling the Granth Sahib in the gurmukhi script even though most of the verses in it are not in the Panjabi language. But for that historical coincidence, Panjabi would have become a real orphan.

DullaBhatti:
Please ignore Sadna. She is an ultra-nationalist who does great job fighting single handedly (our Chowk’s “Jhansi ki Ranee” – and I mean this as a great complement) on Jihadi issues. In case of Punjabi, she just exhibits “Doodh ka jalla Chhachh bhi phoonk phoonk ke peeta hai” syndrome (People burned by hot milk are careful even with cold lassi). Indian nationalists were hurt by muslims and the league in’47 and any sign of reasonable demands from minorities (as was the case of Punjabi Suba demanded by Sikhs) makes them very uncomfortable. This sub-conscious discomfort on inter-border Punjabi movement is symptom of same uneasiness.

M. Souza:
It’s such a pleasure to read you, Stuka and other Punjabi Hindus who are now taking ownership of our mother tongue - Punjabi. In Punjabi suba days, hindus were so paranoid that they use to tell the census workers in Punjabi that their mother tongue is hindi (“Sadi bhasha hindi eih jee”). Thank god, the Punjabi Mama will now have the care of her other two sons (Muslims from Pakistan and Hindus of I-Punjab) too. The way I look at it, both hindus and muslims under the influence of their spouses (their respective religions) are trying hard to please their mother in laws (hindi and Urdu), at the expense of their own mama J. Please do not do it. Help Sikhs in taking care of common mama. By the way, nothing wrong with taking care of your mother in laws too.

Dilshad/Tipu:
Please tell us which state you are from so that we can discuss what better achievements “your people” had than Punjabis. In case you do not know, we were the last ones to surrender to British (1840s) and contributed most in terms of sacrifices afterwards. The reason we are short tempered and fun loving is our history. We were the ones protecting your state (wherever it is) from the invaders for centuries. We were the ones who had to protect ourselves, and you jerks, who now have so much contempt for our aggressiveness and short tempers. We understood that life is short and we must enjoy it as much as possible since next son of a gun will be on the door soon and that explains our fun lovingness whenever we get chance. We were the ones who gave you lazy bums chance to do “strategic thinking” about atma and parmatma during hindu days and building Tajmahal during muslim days. It was us who were divided by religious conversions and our muslim brethren were hammered generation after generation by new invaders to stick to their religion since our area was so close to the invaders (as opposed to south and east India where once people converted they were left alone so they could stay closer to their indian roots). This does not need history lessons. Just look at the way today Punjabi muslims are being influenced by forces of geography (fundamentalism) more than by those from Bangladesh. You want to compare entrepreneurship, just look at beggars on your filthy streets and then compare against I-Punjab (and I assume P-Punjab will be as good in this area). So, Tipu/Dilshad, think hard and do not exhibit your deep inferiority complexes by making silly remarks about Punjabis.

Sameer Sahib:
Please carry forward the torch of Punjabiat no matter what anyone says. The current borders divide us, but inner pull of common ancestry and culture is too strong. May God give us enough wisdom to overcome our divisions for our own and sub-continent’s sake.

Sameer,
Maybe you have addressed this already but i couldn`t find it in your writings. You say language is your connection to your tradition. Fine. Then, on an individual level, teach your native tongue to your kids, firends` kids, etc. Where does politics enter into it? I am yet to grasp the nuances of the politics of punjabi dialects, but would you not agree that punjabis have, for whatever reason, a great influence in pakistan? Why then this fear of urdu and a forced desire to keep the flames of punjabi burning? I can understand powerless linguistic minorities taking up language as a matter of identity and acquiring power thru such identity. But why would a powerful majority bemoan the supposed loss of its language? Again, to many of us, pakistan is punjabi.
For these reasons, i can understand indian punjabis playing language politics. That has happened with other groups as well, tamil nadu being a successful (!) example.
There are a million different reasons for teaching your kids other languages but your nostalgia cannot be a good enough reason..

Sadna, thanks for a good discussion. I have no intention of defending Pak army or jihadi punjabi elite. Only problem I have is that some of our friends assume that Pakistan`s anti-India stance is somehow motivated by Punjabi identity....they then interpolate and assume that that must be some form of Punjabi phenomenon and apply it to all punjabis from Peshawar to Gurghaon.
I have nothing against any other language or culture..I respect other people`s right to take pride in it..but as a Punjabi I can`t see my language be sacrificed at the alter of Pakistan, India, Islam, Khalistan or anything. That will be too big a tragidy if a language once spoken by 120 million people just disappears into a small group of sikh preachers. and I have the right to criticise any group, country, people or idealogy that participates in this massacre of my mother language.

Everyone have a good long weekend. Mine starts today.

m_souza:
I live in NY, an american, an panjabi-american, an asian-american,.....spent about half my life here with absolute freedom to think and act any way I liked because of no family members here to influence.

My thoughts are the product of American and diasporic experience so is my higher education and understanding. The diaspora is likely to keep influencing me more than Lahore, Delhi, Islamabad because I plan to keep on living in USA.

Just as dullabhatti mentioned about the interest of a Dr. Kapoor in Panjabi, I also went on my own in USA to be baptized in ``Panjabiat`` because Urdu speaking was of no use for me anymore. When my mother, a pucci paindoo panjabi speaks Urdu, you can`t tell if she is from Lucknow or chak number ??? g.b. Whole Panjabi experience in my family was lost in a single post-partition generation. My siblings and next generation kids do not understand or speak any Panjabi at all. What many Panjabis in India are worried about now of Hindization of educated middle class already happened in Pakistan. Even the communities with not a single Urdu-speaking in far off small towns P-Panjab switch between Urdu and Panjabi in communications. Nothing to do with any love for reading or beautiful Urdu poetry or reading novels but overall atmosphere of Urdu radio, Urdu TV, Urdu music, Urdu movies, Urdu newspapers,....None of this matters in diaspora though. It is mostly English. Anybody who does not learn or speak English suffers but Urdu and Panjabi become equal. For Panjabis, Panjabi language provides some sense of link to their culture which Urdu can not. For Urdu speaking, Urdu provides some sense of keeping their culture alive in dispora but not Panjabi. Neither of us are hurting Pakistan in anyway whatsoever. It is simply a case of change of conditions.

Then diaspora looks back at the homeland and unable to find any advantage of one language over the other overthere except for ``a national language``. None of subcontinent languages help in learning skills for livelihood anymore than the other. None of them is scientific enough for fast changing world of science and technology. None of those languages can possibly name 40 million organic compounds of my field of specializatioin although some stupids are hell bent to name all the birds, all flora and fauna, all insect and germs in Urdu, Panjabi or Hindi. Urdu has no advantage over Panjabi for mostly farming communities. For them it does not matter what you call fertilizer and water as long as they are available. It is truly like, ``iss hammam maiN sub nangay haiN``.The more important things come secondary to the useless things taking primary importance. To make long story short, it is eaither English and Panjabi, either English and Urdu, either Englsih and Hindi but forget about any usefulness of Hindi and Panjabi or Urdu and Panjabi, neither here nor there. It should be left to personal choice to pick and choose language interests instead of nationalism pushing one more than the other.

In language politics, you can not play the number game and plain old democracy of 50.1 percent wins. Hindi is the most spoken language in India but so is Christianity most practiced religion in the world. If all Indians must have special status for Hindi due to nationalism and majority, then by the same logic, most of the world should convert to Christianity for stopping the killings in the name of religions.

Languages are as much, if not more, link to the memory of forefathers and identity through them as political history or religions.

#99 by Tipu on May 21, 2003 10:32pm PT
``Souza,they (actors )be HERO of yours but neither I like very much these actors nor awed more than how color transforms human into larger than life``

Tipu....
Who cares for handsome looks or colour..its their art or work..

OK..forget abt heroes and heroines..me too am not their great fan either....but I just mentioned that Punjabis like Sabeer Bhatia and Kalpana chawla and many others have done intelligent things too...
Actually..all this was for Dilshad..who said Punjabis are dumb..not that we should care what she said..

Just like not all punjabis are hawaldaars in `fauj` so not all UPites are not driving rickshaws in Punjab..
And also... I don`t look down upon any of these jobs...nothing wrong in driving a rickshaw..beign a self respectign hardworkign person..
And being a `fauji` means you ar serving your country even if one is a hawaldaar....better than being in a warrior in `Murdike camp`..
Punjabis have also been teased for being agriculturalists..but isn`t that an imp job too?
While living where I currently am ...we clean our own toilets and are `maali`, bawarchi, sweepers....all in one..


``I believe the myths that Hindus accused Muslims of 10 = 1 must be a Punjabi idiocy like feeling elated by the e.g. you give why any one should look at Punjabi any different from any other group Konkini,Keralite Tamil Bengali Tallangane ,Kanadinga ..... ``

Oh! No! now when did I say that....
One should not look at any Punjabi any differently but also not look down upon them..
And no Punjabi should look down upon ``any other group Konkini,Keralite Tamil Bengali Tallangane ,Kanadinga ..... ``..all such nice people..I hav e lived in variousl states..seen them all..

We should all look at each other eye-to eye.....haha
Aankhein mila kar..kandhe se kandha milaa kar...chalo kar dein desh ko abaad

#99 by Tipu on May 21, 2003 10:32pm PT
``Souza,they (actors )be HERO of yours but neither I like very much these actors nor awed more than how color transforms human into larger than life``

Tipu....
Who cares for handsome looks or colour..its their art or work..

OK..forget abt heroes and heroines..me too am not their great fan either....but I just mentioned that Punjabis like Sabeer Bhatia and Kalpana chawla and many others have done intelligent things too...
Actually..all this was for Dilshad..who said Punjabis are dumb..not that we should care what she said..

Just like not all punjabis are hawaldaars in `fauj` so not all UPites are not driving rickshaws in Punjab..
And also... I don`t look down upon any of these jobs...nothing wrong in driving a rickshaw..beign a self respectign hardworkign person..
And being a `fauji` means you ar serving your country even if one is a hawaldaar....better than being in a warrior in `Murdike camp`..
Punjabis have also been teased for being agriculturalists..but isn`t that an imp job too?
While living where I currently am ...we clean our own toilets and are `maali`, bawarchi, sweepers....all in one..


``I believe the myths that Hindus accused Muslims of 10 = 1 must be a Punjabi idiocy like feeling elated by the e.g. you give why any one should look at Punjabi any different from any other group Konkini,Keralite Tamil Bengali Tallangane ,Kanadinga ..... ``

Oh! No! now when did I say that....
One should not look at any Punjabi any differently but also not look down upon them..
And no Punjabi should look down upon ``any other group Konkini,Keralite Tamil Bengali Tallangane ,Kanadinga ..... ``..all such nice people..I have lived in various states..seen them all..

We should all look at each other eye-to eye.....haha
Aankhein mila kar..kandhe se kandha milaa kar...chalo kar dein desh ko abaad

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In Lucknow there is much `dangaa`..in Bihar too....especially during election time ...and by the locals.. not by Punjabis there..

dullabhatti #95
``Key point here is that hatred of Pakistanis is not motivated by Punjabi language or culture.``

When did anyone say it was?

``It is convenient for people to label it as Punjabi thing and then freely bash it without being called as anti-muslim or anti-Islam``

Mentioning that the Pakistani Army is mostly Punjabi or that LeT and JeM founders are Punjabis based is Punjab is called Punjabi-bashing. No doubt my daring to mention this shows how I as a nonPunjabi am oppressing you Punjabis.


...````..I am sure killers in Gujrat last year were not exactly motivated after reading Gujrati poems of Dula Kaag..nor did they raise any slogans of long live Gujrat - death to muslims. ..``

For a Muslim in Gujarat, this is baal ki khaal - hair splitting. You cannot totally separate Gujaratis from the events and conditions specific to Gujarat and Gujaratis - even if the riots had nothing to do with Gujarati CULTURE per se, and had more to do with SOCIOPOLITICAL phenomenon of more recent origin. Now a Gujarati will jump up and down and say I am Gujarat-bashing by mentioning the riots - actually guess what Modi already does so.

Thanks for an interesting discussion - I will not be interacting here any further.

``#95 by dullabhatti on May 21, 2003 6:22pm PT
I am sure killers in Gujrat last year were not exactly motivated after reading Gujrati poems of Dula Kaag..nor did they raise any slogans of long live Gujrat - death to muslims. ``

What did those guys read who burnt the train in Godhra? They had all the time to read while they planned of charring people of one community alive.
The spontaniety of the mob riots that followed didn`t have any room for reading..
Moreover..all such loonies are normally `anpar-gawar` types..maybe don`t even know how to read and write..

Sadna and Sameer..by the way ..which state are you from? Just a curiosity..

Isn`t the first Deobandi madrassas ever run in India. They also used to call themselves Taliban.:-)

This is like going in circles. Some people are confusing language and cultural with religious idealogy. Key point here is that hatred of Pakistanis is not motivated by Punjabi language or culture. Period. It is convenient for people to label it as Punjabi thing and then freely bash it without being called as anti-muslim or anti-Islam. A Jihadi from Quetta does not get up in the morning and read Khushhal Khan Khattack before going on jihad in Kashmir. Same was jihadi in muridke does not recite Bulleh Shah or Ustad Daman before picking up his ak47 or blowing himself up. I am sure killers in Gujrat last year were not exactly motivated after reading Gujrati poems of Dula Kaag..nor did they raise any slogans of long live Gujrat - death to muslims.

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correction #89
``please don`t blame the Greeks for present-day Pakistanis` prejudices and what they write in their newspapers (and perhaps textbooks)``

SameerJB, dullabhatti

Sameer, please don`t blame the Greeks for what the present-day Pakistanis prejudices and what they write in their newspapers (and perhaps textbooks) while holding me responsible for what I say or do :). I donot need to look for a good `Before Christ` reason for what I say or do:

For instance its the Afghans and Western press who use the term Punjabi Taliban.

http://www.arena.org.nz/afwar.htm
````Punjabi Taliban,`` a gap-toothed old man dressed in a colorless turban and a cloak hissed to me, gesturing at one of the bodies. Another man shook his head, ``Kandari Taliban,`` he said. ``


Apparently those helping the Taliban from the Pakistani Army were also Punjabi speaking:

http://www.omaid.com/english_section/in_the_press/recognition_JanesDefence_Oct4.htm
``In addition, informed sources told Jane`s Defence Weekly that Pakistani military involvement appears to have gone beyond logistic support and the presence of military advisers to include the covert deployment of special forces.

One western military analyst noted the presence of an estimated 300-400 Punjabi-speaking infantry displaying ``extraordinary collective skills``.``


I am NOT GUILTY here of anti-Punjabi prejudice.

Perhaps more people speak Punjabi than lay claims to pride in Punjabiyat? The CIA factbook says 48% of Pakistanis are Punjabi speaking. I myself, not long ago, while passing through the airport at Doha Qatar, saw and heard many shalwar-clad (apparently) Pakistani women who were headed for religious pilgrimage in S. Arabia who were speaking Punjabi.


As I said before its hard for people from outside to tell to whether pro-Punjabiat or pro-Indian feelings are confined to a few and whether these are widespread feelings.


If Lahore is the cultural capital of Punjabiat, Muridke is not many miles away If an Indian visits cities and towns in Pakistani Punjab, which feeling is he going to encounter - anti-India or pro-India?

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Very well written !!!

I am glad that the author did not mention Panjabiyat as some of the people who posted have. I really get irritated when I come across words like Panjabiyat and Kashmiriyat. Neither of these terms exist in the real world. Panjabiyat if it ever existed was killed in 1947. Similarly Kashmiriat if it ever existed is now dead. Who killed most of the Panjabis during Partition - other Panjabis. Who expelled Kashmiris out of Kashmir - other Kashmiris.

Pakistani Panjab and the Indian Panjab could be on different planets. Yes we share the language and to some extent cusine but our value systems, our goals and what we consider our heritage are now poles apart. Sooner we realize the better for us to get on with our lives.

My parents came from Pakistani Panjab and until they died they talked so lovingly about Lahore and what was in Pakistani Panjab. If partition had not occured most probably I would be Lahori too. However, do I ever wish to even visit that city ? No way !! It has no attraction for me at all because what is now in Lahore or Pakistani Panjab is very different than what my parents left. I guess if my parents ever visited Lahore they would have been dissappointed to see a cultural melting pot converted to a unireligious, bigoted fanatic place.

yes yes sir. Punjabis are dumb, illiterate and very quarrelsome. We kill thousands of eachother every year in riots. abh aap janaab batayeiN ke aapki khandaani hazrat Einstein se milti hai kiya?

Khurana ko kitni jaldi maan liya ke woh Indian tha..udhar aaka Azhar Masood kehta hai hum sabh se phelay jihadi hain aur kuchh nahi..lekin woh Punjabi hai.

#81 by Dilshad on May 21, 2003 11:33am PT

++How dumb Punjabis are ...............

At the same time how stupid & foolish
Dont you think we in India do not know you Punjabis ....?????

It all obove the head of Jamedar Major Bhuta Singh ..Havildar
Some Punjabis may have been made into Field Marshall on BOTH Pakistan sides & Indian Sides ..
But they alway are foot soldier of British ,Indian & Pakistani ,never stategist of ANYTHING
++


Dilshad...

All the movie icons like Raj Kapoor family, Sunil Dutt, Sunny Deol.... all the Khannas(Rajesh, Vinod etc), Bhatias.....of the industry..all Punjabis...

Even Amitabh Bachchan has a Punjabi(Sikh) mother.

Sabeer Bhatia.....the Hotmail `postman`....a Punjabi......

Kalpana Chawla.......the illfated `dumb`(as per you)..flying woman Punjabi..

And we have enough `rikhshawalaa` and `rehriwallahs` from other states who migrate to Punjab from UP and Bihar...so better be a `hawaladaar`...in the fauj..

Otherwise ..you are right Dilshad...Punjabis do have this aggressive streak which has at times been used wrongly...so it needs a right direction..and right opportunities too...which they won`t...unless and until they become more manipulative and less forthright and confronting..

But fro us Indians..Chanakaya is a symbol of intelligence...

sadna:
here is an offer you can`t refuse. I am ready to call Pakistani Army as Panjabi dominated and even Panjabi Taliban, if all the people you label Panjabi actually accept being Panjabi and consider their languages as accents of Panjabi. Do you know it means that P-Panjab actually starts at chinese border along the rivers Indius and Kunar, all of Hazara, part of Mansehra and Kohat and Peshawar and also part of Kashmir in addition to current boundries of P-Panjab. Wow! By the same standards, you have to also accept that part of Jammu in Kashmir, part of HP, two districts of Haryana, most of Delhi are also Panjabis first.

Or you accept the right of the people of Kashmir, Haryana and HP to call themselves belonging to their own states first and then use the same standard to Pakistan to those who do not wish to be called Panjabis, making Pakistani army no Panjabi army at all.

You can`t have both ways!!!! Adaab arz hae

sadna and soysauce:
Here are two points regarding Panjabis domination of Pakistan military or power politics.
1) Pakistan is a majority Panjabis country. They have more voters, more people, more workers, more politicians, more bureaucrats and the list can go on and on but please alse read the point number 2 before coming to any conclusions.

2) Panjabis dominate the non-comissioned ranks of Pakistan Army but it is a superficial reality almost same as suggesting Hinduism is casteism or Sikh men are those who wear turban and grow beards. It is so superficial that it can be changed with one strike of pen by the President or Prime Minister of Pakistan. This is how.

The Panjabis in the army come mainly from Potowari speaking area of northern Panjab. Just like Saraiki speaking, many Potowari speaking wish to have separate province or at least Potowari accepted as a distinct language instead of an accent of Panjabi. The support for Potowari province is much weaker than Saraiki province. Anyway, accepting Potowari as distinct language is no big deal for anybody but it changes the whole superficial reality. Now the order of numbers of non-comissioned Army would be Potowari, Pashtun, Panjabi,.....and among the commissioned ranks, perhaps, Potowari, Urdu-speaking, Pashtun, Panjabi roughly equal or slight edge for Potowaris. At generals level, I am sure favoritism plays definite role. Therefore we have, sometime, more Potowari general, some time more Pashtun generals and sometime more Urdu-speaking generals. So technically speaking it is Punjabi because of the borders of Panjab province but if you accept Potowari identity and take a poll of military, most will opt for Potowari rather than Panjabi identity. You can verify this from romair or urstruly.

We, the people of subcontinent, really have a problem of accepting superficial realities as absolute truths. Most Pakistans similarly define Hinduism and Sikhism as I mentioned above without digging deep and finding the human thought process, vision for society, social order and psyche playing major role in Hindu and Sikh thoughts.

I am still not sure why it is always called Panjabi Taliban or Panjabi army. I have a hunch that it has to do with general uncouth, boisterous, aggressive image and deep feeling of dislikeness of all things Panjabi on part of many non-Panjabi people but never saying it openly like Dilshad did because of its stereotypical nature. Actually it would be much better for anti-Pakistan or anti-Panjabi hardliners to fan separate Potowari identity from Panjabi to see P-Panjab further dividing into Potowar, Panjab and Saraiki suba.

soysauce, Panjabi awareness of the status of their language dates much back than BhindraNwale even in Pakistan. People like Masood Khaddarposh, Major Ishaq of Mazdoor Kisan Party and K. K. Aziz author of famous and frequently quoted book, ``Murder of History`` predate BhindraNwale. Isn`t it ironic that people who have ``stranglehold`` on non-comissioned ranks of Army would rather not call themselves Panjabis but potowaris?

sadna, I am certain Chanakya rascal (or Kautalya Rascal) phrase is of not Panjabi origin. He was a Potowari and many believe that his Master and friend, Chandragupt Maurya`s mother was also from this area. Most likely, the Greeks transplant in post-Alexandrian northwest India coined this phrase because he outsmarted them in power game in that region. Moreover, transplanted Greeks reclaimed part of northwest subcontinent as Bactrians (Greko-Afghan) and Parthians (Greko-Persians) for brief periods, each time in post Chandragupt era and had interest in defaming their highly skilled enemy of the past. Just a guess.

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Sadna, Is a Jihadi a Jihadi because he is Punjabi, or does he happen to be a Punjabi(born as a Punjabi with no control over it, and despises this fact) but motivated to be Jihadi by something very non-Punjabi? Masood and Saeed and many others are born as Punjabis but when was the last time they did or said anything about their language, land or anything else related to Punjab...they are almost Bedounis transplated in the middle of Punjab. As some one posted on another thread, the Pakistani army is majority Punjabi but then Pakistan is majority Punjabi itself. What a lower level soldier feels or does after training does not come from his own brain or heart..it is his training and brainwash from officers above..some of who may be Punjabi too but not motivated by punjabiyat.

Soyasauce, the fraternal feeling of Punjabis was there..it came out in the early 1950`s. There are memoirs of people who visited either side during that period. There were visits from each side. There were hockey and cricket matches in Amritsar and Lahore where thousands of people from each side participated. Then there was a change in policy in Pakistan to totally Islamise itself and create as much difference from India as possible.(recently same is happening on Indian side) Then there was almost total freeze on exchange of arts, books and travels in general after 1971.[there was almost a whole generation of Punjabi writers on each side that other side did not know of until 90`s. e.g. Famous Punjabi poet of Lahore, Ustad Daman is known to most older people who read or heard him before partition or in 50`s...then next generation did not even hear about him on Indian side. Most of us discovered him only 7/8 years ago when some of his work was brought back to India by visitors and published in India] Which continues to this day but due to communication technologies in the last 10 years and migrations,things are changing...people who otherwise would have never come in contact with other side are bumping into each other online or in real life.

I don`t underestimate the hatred indoctrinated through radicalization and nationalism by state of Pakistan but I still believe majority of people who take prid