The Wheels of Time

dullabhatti #95
``Key point here is that hatred of Pakistanis is not motivated by Punjabi language or culture.``

When did anyone say it was?

``It is convenient for people to label it as Punjabi thing and then freely bash it without being called as anti-muslim or anti-Islam``

Mentioning that the Pakistani Army is mostly Punjabi or that LeT and JeM founders are Punjabis based is Punjab is called Punjabi-bashing. No doubt my daring to mention this shows how I as a nonPunjabi am oppressing you Punjabis.


...````..I am sure killers in Gujrat last year were not exactly motivated after reading Gujrati poems of Dula Kaag..nor did they raise any slogans of long live Gujrat - death to muslims. ..``

For a Muslim in Gujarat, this is baal ki khaal - hair splitting. You cannot totally separate Gujaratis from the events and conditions specific to Gujarat and Gujaratis - even if the riots had nothing to do with Gujarati CULTURE per se, and had more to do with SOCIOPOLITICAL phenomenon of more recent origin. Now a Gujarati will jump up and down and say I am Gujarat-bashing by mentioning the riots - actually guess what Modi already does so.

Thanks for an interesting discussion - I will not be interacting here any further.

In Lucknow there is much `dangaa`..in Bihar too....especially during election time ...and by the locals.. not by Punjabis there..

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#99 by Tipu on May 21, 2003 10:32pm PT
``Souza,they (actors )be HERO of yours but neither I like very much these actors nor awed more than how color transforms human into larger than life``

Tipu....
Who cares for handsome looks or colour..its their art or work..

OK..forget abt heroes and heroines..me too am not their great fan either....but I just mentioned that Punjabis like Sabeer Bhatia and Kalpana chawla and many others have done intelligent things too...
Actually..all this was for Dilshad..who said Punjabis are dumb..not that we should care what she said..

Just like not all punjabis are hawaldaars in `fauj` so not all UPites are not driving rickshaws in Punjab..
And also... I don`t look down upon any of these jobs...nothing wrong in driving a rickshaw..beign a self respectign hardworkign person..
And being a `fauji` means you ar serving your country even if one is a hawaldaar....better than being in a warrior in `Murdike camp`..
Punjabis have also been teased for being agriculturalists..but isn`t that an imp job too?
While living where I currently am ...we clean our own toilets and are `maali`, bawarchi, sweepers....all in one..


``I believe the myths that Hindus accused Muslims of 10 = 1 must be a Punjabi idiocy like feeling elated by the e.g. you give why any one should look at Punjabi any different from any other group Konkini,Keralite Tamil Bengali Tallangane ,Kanadinga ..... ``

Oh! No! now when did I say that....
One should not look at any Punjabi any differently but also not look down upon them..
And no Punjabi should look down upon ``any other group Konkini,Keralite Tamil Bengali Tallangane ,Kanadinga ..... ``..all such nice people..I have lived in various states..seen them all..

We should all look at each other eye-to eye.....haha
Aankhein mila kar..kandhe se kandha milaa kar...chalo kar dein desh ko abaad

#99 by Tipu on May 21, 2003 10:32pm PT
``Souza,they (actors )be HERO of yours but neither I like very much these actors nor awed more than how color transforms human into larger than life``

Tipu....
Who cares for handsome looks or colour..its their art or work..

OK..forget abt heroes and heroines..me too am not their great fan either....but I just mentioned that Punjabis like Sabeer Bhatia and Kalpana chawla and many others have done intelligent things too...
Actually..all this was for Dilshad..who said Punjabis are dumb..not that we should care what she said..

Just like not all punjabis are hawaldaars in `fauj` so not all UPites are not driving rickshaws in Punjab..
And also... I don`t look down upon any of these jobs...nothing wrong in driving a rickshaw..beign a self respectign hardworkign person..
And being a `fauji` means you ar serving your country even if one is a hawaldaar....better than being in a warrior in `Murdike camp`..
Punjabis have also been teased for being agriculturalists..but isn`t that an imp job too?
While living where I currently am ...we clean our own toilets and are `maali`, bawarchi, sweepers....all in one..


``I believe the myths that Hindus accused Muslims of 10 = 1 must be a Punjabi idiocy like feeling elated by the e.g. you give why any one should look at Punjabi any different from any other group Konkini,Keralite Tamil Bengali Tallangane ,Kanadinga ..... ``

Oh! No! now when did I say that....
One should not look at any Punjabi any differently but also not look down upon them..
And no Punjabi should look down upon ``any other group Konkini,Keralite Tamil Bengali Tallangane ,Kanadinga ..... ``..all such nice people..I hav e lived in variousl states..seen them all..

We should all look at each other eye-to eye.....haha
Aankhein mila kar..kandhe se kandha milaa kar...chalo kar dein desh ko abaad

m_souza:
I live in NY, an american, an panjabi-american, an asian-american,.....spent about half my life here with absolute freedom to think and act any way I liked because of no family members here to influence.

My thoughts are the product of American and diasporic experience so is my higher education and understanding. The diaspora is likely to keep influencing me more than Lahore, Delhi, Islamabad because I plan to keep on living in USA.

Just as dullabhatti mentioned about the interest of a Dr. Kapoor in Panjabi, I also went on my own in USA to be baptized in ``Panjabiat`` because Urdu speaking was of no use for me anymore. When my mother, a pucci paindoo panjabi speaks Urdu, you can`t tell if she is from Lucknow or chak number ??? g.b. Whole Panjabi experience in my family was lost in a single post-partition generation. My siblings and next generation kids do not understand or speak any Panjabi at all. What many Panjabis in India are worried about now of Hindization of educated middle class already happened in Pakistan. Even the communities with not a single Urdu-speaking in far off small towns P-Panjab switch between Urdu and Panjabi in communications. Nothing to do with any love for reading or beautiful Urdu poetry or reading novels but overall atmosphere of Urdu radio, Urdu TV, Urdu music, Urdu movies, Urdu newspapers,....None of this matters in diaspora though. It is mostly English. Anybody who does not learn or speak English suffers but Urdu and Panjabi become equal. For Panjabis, Panjabi language provides some sense of link to their culture which Urdu can not. For Urdu speaking, Urdu provides some sense of keeping their culture alive in dispora but not Panjabi. Neither of us are hurting Pakistan in anyway whatsoever. It is simply a case of change of conditions.

Then diaspora looks back at the homeland and unable to find any advantage of one language over the other overthere except for ``a national language``. None of subcontinent languages help in learning skills for livelihood anymore than the other. None of them is scientific enough for fast changing world of science and technology. None of those languages can possibly name 40 million organic compounds of my field of specializatioin although some stupids are hell bent to name all the birds, all flora and fauna, all insect and germs in Urdu, Panjabi or Hindi. Urdu has no advantage over Panjabi for mostly farming communities. For them it does not matter what you call fertilizer and water as long as they are available. It is truly like, ``iss hammam maiN sub nangay haiN``.The more important things come secondary to the useless things taking primary importance. To make long story short, it is eaither English and Panjabi, either English and Urdu, either Englsih and Hindi but forget about any usefulness of Hindi and Panjabi or Urdu and Panjabi, neither here nor there. It should be left to personal choice to pick and choose language interests instead of nationalism pushing one more than the other.

In language politics, you can not play the number game and plain old democracy of 50.1 percent wins. Hindi is the most spoken language in India but so is Christianity most practiced religion in the world. If all Indians must have special status for Hindi due to nationalism and majority, then by the same logic, most of the world should convert to Christianity for stopping the killings in the name of religions.

Languages are as much, if not more, link to the memory of forefathers and identity through them as political history or religions.

Sadna, thanks for a good discussion. I have no intention of defending Pak army or jihadi punjabi elite. Only problem I have is that some of our friends assume that Pakistan`s anti-India stance is somehow motivated by Punjabi identity....they then interpolate and assume that that must be some form of Punjabi phenomenon and apply it to all punjabis from Peshawar to Gurghaon.
I have nothing against any other language or culture..I respect other people`s right to take pride in it..but as a Punjabi I can`t see my language be sacrificed at the alter of Pakistan, India, Islam, Khalistan or anything. That will be too big a tragidy if a language once spoken by 120 million people just disappears into a small group of sikh preachers. and I have the right to criticise any group, country, people or idealogy that participates in this massacre of my mother language.

Everyone have a good long weekend. Mine starts today.

Sameer,
Maybe you have addressed this already but i couldn`t find it in your writings. You say language is your connection to your tradition. Fine. Then, on an individual level, teach your native tongue to your kids, firends` kids, etc. Where does politics enter into it? I am yet to grasp the nuances of the politics of punjabi dialects, but would you not agree that punjabis have, for whatever reason, a great influence in pakistan? Why then this fear of urdu and a forced desire to keep the flames of punjabi burning? I can understand powerless linguistic minorities taking up language as a matter of identity and acquiring power thru such identity. But why would a powerful majority bemoan the supposed loss of its language? Again, to many of us, pakistan is punjabi.
For these reasons, i can understand indian punjabis playing language politics. That has happened with other groups as well, tamil nadu being a successful (!) example.
There are a million different reasons for teaching your kids other languages but your nostalgia cannot be a good enough reason..

DullaBhatti:
Please ignore Sadna. She is an ultra-nationalist who does great job fighting single handedly (our Chowk’s “Jhansi ki Ranee” – and I mean this as a great complement) on Jihadi issues. In case of Punjabi, she just exhibits “Doodh ka jalla Chhachh bhi phoonk phoonk ke peeta hai” syndrome (People burned by hot milk are careful even with cold lassi). Indian nationalists were hurt by muslims and the league in’47 and any sign of reasonable demands from minorities (as was the case of Punjabi Suba demanded by Sikhs) makes them very uncomfortable. This sub-conscious discomfort on inter-border Punjabi movement is symptom of same uneasiness.

M. Souza:
It’s such a pleasure to read you, Stuka and other Punjabi Hindus who are now taking ownership of our mother tongue - Punjabi. In Punjabi suba days, hindus were so paranoid that they use to tell the census workers in Punjabi that their mother tongue is hindi (“Sadi bhasha hindi eih jee”). Thank god, the Punjabi Mama will now have the care of her other two sons (Muslims from Pakistan and Hindus of I-Punjab) too. The way I look at it, both hindus and muslims under the influence of their spouses (their respective religions) are trying hard to please their mother in laws (hindi and Urdu), at the expense of their own mama J. Please do not do it. Help Sikhs in taking care of common mama. By the way, nothing wrong with taking care of your mother in laws too.

Dilshad/Tipu:
Please tell us which state you are from so that we can discuss what better achievements “your people” had than Punjabis. In case you do not know, we were the last ones to surrender to British (1840s) and contributed most in terms of sacrifices afterwards. The reason we are short tempered and fun loving is our history. We were the ones protecting your state (wherever it is) from the invaders for centuries. We were the ones who had to protect ourselves, and you jerks, who now have so much contempt for our aggressiveness and short tempers. We understood that life is short and we must enjoy it as much as possible since next son of a gun will be on the door soon and that explains our fun lovingness whenever we get chance. We were the ones who gave you lazy bums chance to do “strategic thinking” about atma and parmatma during hindu days and building Tajmahal during muslim days. It was us who were divided by religious conversions and our muslim brethren were hammered generation after generation by new invaders to stick to their religion since our area was so close to the invaders (as opposed to south and east India where once people converted they were left alone so they could stay closer to their indian roots). This does not need history lessons. Just look at the way today Punjabi muslims are being influenced by forces of geography (fundamentalism) more than by those from Bangladesh. You want to compare entrepreneurship, just look at beggars on your filthy streets and then compare against I-Punjab (and I assume P-Punjab will be as good in this area). So, Tipu/Dilshad, think hard and do not exhibit your deep inferiority complexes by making silly remarks about Punjabis.

Sameer Sahib:
Please carry forward the torch of Punjabiat no matter what anyone says. The current borders divide us, but inner pull of common ancestry and culture is too strong. May God give us enough wisdom to overcome our divisions for our own and sub-continent’s sake.

Pardesi:
Thanks for a wonderful post!
I don`t think that `Mama` is out of the woods yet! It is disheartening to see even the sikh children abandoning their mother tongue on the streets of Delhi. The irony is that while Panjabi culture, food and music, including the panjabi-hindi mixture of film songs are becoming ever more popular, panjabis outside panjab are not being very faithful to their Mama. Thank God for Guru Arjun Dev for compiling the Granth Sahib in the gurmukhi script even though most of the verses in it are not in the Panjabi language. But for that historical coincidence, Panjabi would have become a real orphan.

Pardesi Ji: Thanks for your complements. I actually like Sadna because she can not be irrational for too long. What you witnessed here was looking at this topic from two different set of conditions. Hers, as you rightly pointed out is very Indian nationalistic and mine is based on worldwide flowering of multiculturism. I see the acceptance of much smaller groups by the world community but looked down in our part of the world and all kind of useless hurdles are put up to curtail them aginst few choicest ones - Islamic and Ganges Plains, with Islamic/ Arabic/ Afghan/ Persian mixed with Ganges plains in Pakistan and Ganges plains in India. I really thank Bengalis and Tamils for opening the clogged chanel for rest of us.

I also see diaspora Panjabis as another Panjabi suba whose interests must be heard.

soysauce: We are really concern about cultural issues here. But your questions are genuine and must be answered. I can only speak for myself and here is what I think:

I agree about the influence and political power of Panjabis in Pakistan beyond their provincial borders. I woud like to see it curtailed for the sake of justice and Pakistan. No Pakistani should feel ignored. To, me using ethnic muscles beying their own people is fascism. It should be done constitutionally and I support weak center, weak provincial governments and strong district governments. I would like to see many of cultural and educational issues in the full control of districts. If Multan district wants to promote Saraiki culture and teach in saraiki at primary level (because books in Saraiki would not be available for middle and high school for a while). Same for the districts of Karachi, Sindh, NWFP, Balochistan and Panjab. If Rawalpindi district wants to spent money on Potowari cultural academy, they should be able to do it without control from Lahore or Islamabad. There is nothing that can not be worked out.

There is a trade off for Panjabi influence at the expense of Panjabi language and culture. I do not like it because influence only helps elites who buddy-buddy with each other and peoples` heritage pays the price. No Panjabi elite has ever done anything for me being Panjabi, then why should I sacrifice my heritage for them to have influence.

Pakistan has used danda for too long. They have used it against Bengalis, for national language, for strong center, for Islam, for anti-India, for Kashmir and so on. The danda business has to be stopped and replaced with freedom - more than what Indian constitution offers to Indians because Pakistan internal security is less threatened by internal ethnic forces. Pakistan internal cohesion is much stronger than baseless assumptions of establishment elites.

Does this satisfy your query?

That was for Pakistan. For Pakistani diaspora, I support English plus one desi language. Since disapora is not ruled by some desi authority, it is voluntary. This is the way, in my opinion, to keep identity for little linger than all the mix ups of Islam, Pakistan, Panjabi, Urdu, Hindi for born and raised in diaspora. Too many identities and their complex relationship existing in subcontinent is a turn off and counterproductive for seldom or never visitors to Pakistan by Pakistani diaspora. Notice, Sikhs in diapora are much more cohesive because of just one language from motherland. Same goes for Gujratis but not for any group of Pakistanis. That is why they use religion to compensate for the drawbacks of the diluted cultural identification. Religion in diaspora has its own problems, particularly if it is pitted against majority culture at political, social and cultural levels. So why not make life easy. Find identities least colliding with host culture.

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#105 by Pardesi on May 22, 2003 3:52pm PT
``In Punjabi suba days, hindus were so paranoid that they use to tell the census workers in Punjabi that their mother tongue is hindi (“Sadi bhasha hindi eih jee”). ``

Haha..that was funny..telling in punjabi language that your mother tongue is not punjabi..
Anyway..I have seen `punjabi suba` days very very closely....through my eyes..being born and brought up in a modern city of punjab(guess?)..although I was at an age when I didn`t know anything abt politics..but i remember everything vividly. So..those sikh punjabis who were living in foreign countries..were not even born and brought up in punjab..and even during those days..they didn`t visit it..so for them it ws `just in the mind`.....the whole thing.
While we insiders experienced it first-hand..and if I start discussing with you ..I can clearly think now what went wrong in the whole system...why it all happened..?
I would like to tell Sadna and all..that Sikhs are the most loving and most caring, warm people..so whatever happened that time..they should not have `doodh ka jala, chach bhi fook..``.
If ever any hindus suffered or lost lives during sepratist movement in punjab..it was the hindu punjabis as we saw it first hand..... so why do hindus from other states form any judgements..while we don`t? And maybe sikhs were right in many of the things they said, although a separate country was not an answer..more autonomy, more rights and respect was..and still is...

My conclusion is..hindus of punjab were not at all interested in a separate suba..they didn`t have any future there..and also most of those sikhs who were residents of india didn`t want a `punjabi suba` too..only some of those residing outside india created such an atmosphere that everybody was paranoid..
Now ..as you may know..hindu punjabis never had anything against sikhs..as per history...rather..`gur-sikhs` came from hindu punjabi faimilies only...with same surnames still..
So where do such hindus go if punjab was shaky???
It was a tough state of mind for hindus..to see some sikhs asking for a separate state and to disagree with them ..it was kind of unbelievable..they used to worry..where shall we go? afterall..isn`t punjab ours too??

So hindu punjabis knew that their future would be with india as they wouldn`t ever be going tolive in a separate suba..so they wanted to proove their loyalty towards india..to be accepted.

Ohh ..it is a long discussion..of things long long gone by..things that have been restified and fixed now..

Taking ownership of our language is one thing. But can`t one speak punjabi and be an Indian at the same time?
Pardesi ji..if we as punjabis or you as a particular community do ever feel that you want more rights..ask for it....find your rightful place while staying in the country..why should you leave your country??? We as punjabis have fought for our country..for centuries...it is our country. We punjabis have suffered during partition...it is our country...OK??
Why should we be deported by Sadna?? Why can`t we deport her???
IT IS A COUNTRY YOURS AND MINE..FOR ALL .....WHY SHOULD ANY ONE STATE HAVE A FULL RIGHT ON IT? WHY SHOULD ANY ONE PART OF INDIA EVER FEEL THEY HAVE MORE RIGHTS..
AND MOST OF ALL..GIVE LOVE TO YOUR COUNTRYMEN..(AND WOMEN..HAHA)..AND IT WILL COME BACK TO YOU...that is how it works..I have tried it...

Sameer, msouza
I am unable to understand why if I mention that LeT and JeM are Punjabis and that the CIA factbook says 48% of Pakistan speaks Punjabi, I am called anti-Sikh, anti-Punjabi and anti-Indo-Pak cooperation. What am I missing here?

Pardesi #105
``Indian nationalists were hurt by muslims and the league in’47 and any sign of reasonable demands from minorities (as was the case of Punjabi Suba demanded by Sikhs) makes them very uncomfortable. This sub-conscious discomfort on inter-border Punjabi movement is symptom of same uneasiness. ``

What demands?

The Punjabi suba came into existence before I was born. Sorry if the borders of the said suba donot please you, but thats history and politics -harsh history and politics which we had to accept just like Hindu-Muslim bitterness in the entire country due to the millions killed in Punjab and Bengal at Partition.

Punjabi is a scheduled language in the Indian Constitution. The official language in Punjab is Punjabi, which is taught in all goverment schools. There are about a 100 Punjabi-language dailies, 300 Punjabi-language weeklies and 200 monthly publications. There is a Punjab Sahitya Akademi just like Sahitya Akademis for other languages.

There are at least 4 or 5 Punjabi language TV channels - including the official Doordarshan Punjabi regional channel. Punjabi pop is mostly what one hears on Indian pop radio stations in NAmerica or even at any Indian party even if noone speaks Punjabi.

Apart for the recent visa denial, please explain (without going back to 1947) why you think Indians or the Indian government have any conspiracy against the Punjabi language or Indo-Pak Punjabi links NOW in 2003.

And what more do you want from nonPunjabis wrt the Punjabi language? That we must not dare mention the Punjabi composition of the Pakistani Army or fundamentalist groups ? How reasonable is that?

I forgot to mention:
In the local Goddess Durga temple, they sing Bulleh Shah in Punjabi. In most Indian music stores I have seen, alongside music of most Indian languages, they sell music of Pakistani Punjabi singers. When Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan was alive, he was feted and celebrated in India - not just by Punjabis in N.Delhi or Punjab. But go ahead, call all these people anti-Sikh, anti-Pakistani, anti-Punjabi .