The Wheels of Time

Nice!

Jagmohan paa, very good. Keep them coming.

nice reading.keep it up

Documenting what happened during the ``rolleian`` was never a strong point with those impacted the most.

This narrative helps in correcting matters.

Thank you.

Nice article Jagmohan ji

I can empathise with anyone who had to go through such trauma. I have myself not seen them but heard so much.
My Hindu-Punjabi parents were also very little when they left everything behind to cross the newly formed borders in 1947. But really they have all the time been haunted by all that happened. The families of all my relatives are now scatterd all over India as they must have looked for any safe place to livein. I feel the trauma still has its scars in thier unsettled minds.

My grandmother who saw thier women being butchered and raped just because they were hindus/sikhs and were not supposed to stay on as it was going to be an `islamic land of the pure`. Some relatives of mine also lost their minds like the `biji` of your story(i have myself seen them suffering)....some could not escape to come over to hindustan..and so there were accounts of them being forcibly converted (by circumcising them in public). Later they died of humiliation. This is teh reason probably there are no hindus in pakistani punjab..they fled or were converted.
Even imagining such a thing gives me shudders and fills me up with hatred for these Babars and Aurungzebs.
I feel like seeing the land of my ancestors(Rawal pindi/Gujraanwala) to see where my ancestors lived...but to even imagine going to paksitan makes me feel I could be attacked on account of my being a hindu..because that land is now more and more full of jihadis and mullahs than ever.

one of the better readings on chowk in recent times... liked the chrecterisations... am eagerly looking forward to more such gems from you sirjee...

well written......and same happened with lot of ppl who migrated from H`tan to Pak

Paa jee,
It was a gripping tale. I spent my office time reading through it. Now I will need to work late.

Regards

This is an unpolished gem. I like the narrative which is matter of fact with the melodrama finely controlled. Please keep writing.

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Well done, `nuff said.

Cheers.

Jagmohan

I like the literature you produce - simple touching stories of ordinary human beings.

Very well told. Concise and very appropriate selections of words. Your painting of the environment is veryt effective.

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Well expressed thoughts and sentiments in a ``unique`` writing style

(to say the least).


Ras

#6 by raza_2809 on May 14, 2003 6:34am PT
``well written......and same happened with lot of ppl who migrated from H`tan to Pak ``

#10 by Studebaker on May 14, 2003 2:32pm PT

``More than 3 million suddenly left in panic fromIndia to Pakistan.
I dont know but i am sure it must hacve been just as common across the border in Pakistan subject of such medium. ``


Guys...but there is a difference. The muslims themselves had asked for a seperate homeland so it was they who wanted to migrate. It was their demand that caused all the trouble. So, they had something to rejoice for, inspite of all that happened.

Whereas the other party -- hindus/sikhs got it all for no fault of thiers.
Ironically, our people were accepted and respected in this side of India also. Whereas muslims were rejected even in thier new homeland and given names like mohajirs etc..

But I suppose thier were many muslims who didn`t want to leave India go to pakiland still had to.

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#17 by Roshan on May 15, 2003 11:30pm PT

First of all, you guys asked the Englishmen who were already dividing and ruling and dividing...so they were more than happy to give it..

Now even when you got it..you guys were(are) not happy(at least not as much you thought you would be) for such a long time. And look at the trouble created for so many millions of our area..
So that was a mistake in history...the very division and renaming of ancient land that was India. India`s heart still bleeds. Can it take further wounds?? And if you force it to..by way of kashmir..then the whole subcontinent would be doomed...

``And i wonder just why Kashmiris when they ask for never seem to get it !! ``
Why such a `himaayat` for kashmiris...why not give Baluchis and Sindhis and others thier right for a seperate land first..
Punjab is already divided ..now let it form a seperate country..you can have a small country called Punjab..towards the east side of smaller Pakistan. Manzoor hai?? If Kashmiris are hurt that their land is divided between two countries..then what about Punjabis...their `land of five rivers`..Let Pakistani punjab join Indian Punjab..
And a country Sindh towards the south..
Does pakistan really want a seperate land for kashmiris? Or does it slowly want to gulp it and engulf it..

+Must be they(kashmiris) are Ugly ! +

You guys are obsessed with your looks. Ugly..beautiful..handsome..fair...etc etc...don`t you have other criteria to judge people??
Indians are all of such diverse appearance and languages and culture that noone can think of dividing our country further on any of these issues.

Waise..ye baatein apki samjah mein aayeingee nahin

Jagmohanji:
A very poignant tale. My eyes welled up while reading it. We all had stories like that. Maybe I will share mine one day...
BTW have you thought of joining a creative writers` workshops? Such workshops are offered by community colleges and are very helpful in learning techniques, etc.

studebaker:
Is it necessary to talk about moral equivalence everytime someone mentions what happened in Pakistan during the partition? Because there was/is none! Despite the fact that hindus/sikhs did not want Pakistan, I do not know anyone, NONE, who wanted to leave the new country after it was formed. And yet, ALL of them were faced with the choice of leave, convert or get killed.
Now I am the first to admit that India has nothing to be proud of when it comes to treating its muslim minority. And you would be every bit justified in complaining about India`s less than sterling record in this respect. But there is no moral equivalence [nor should there be any between a country achieved in the name of religious identity and another with avowedly secular mandate].
Despite insecurities and discrimination, muslim Indians continue to live in India and inrease their numerical strength in both absolute and relative terms. Even the children of mixed marriages are generally raised as muslims. Millions of bangladeshi muslims who have illegally entered India refuse to go back. Hundreds of thousands of visitors from Pakistan have not gone back and not all of them are hindus. Contrast this with the situation in Pakistan. Have you heard of a SINGLE hindu who has gone back to Pakistan after coming to India? The sikhs who were forced out of Kabul and Kandhar during the taleban rule came to India and never thought of moving to the nearby Peshawar (where they could share the same culture, language and cuisine) despite the crocodile tears that Pakistan and Pakistanis shed for sikhs. Why? Even Hindus who stayed back in Sindh are trickling out of Pakistan and being forced to convert or use non-hindu sounding names.
So, complain all you want about the mistreatments of muslims in India and I will be with you all the way. But do not talk about equivalence because it is only going to get Hindians angry.

Faridi, dullabhatti, septran, yossarian, friend, soysause, maulabux, Ras,

Thank you all for your words of appreciation. I value them highly.

M_souza,

Indeed, that event was one of the most traumatic in the modern history of the subcontinent. In fact no writing can justifiably portray the horror, that mankind inflicted on itself. Some of the worst atrocities have never been, or will never be told, because the victims did not survive to tell the tale. The story that I have told, unbelievably tragic that it is, is a still a feeble attempt to honor the sufferers of that holocaust.

Veeresh.

There have been a few very good writings about the partition, but I agree with you there has never been a comprehensive documentation of the event, by the people who suffered through it. The simple explanation is that, they were too busy putting their lives together and had no time for writing about it. However they did relate what they went through to their children and I am sure every family has such stories. It is up to us the next generation to explore the past and put it on paper (or computer).

Studebaker, Raza_2809.

As dost-miter and others have pointed out, this story in no way denies the fact that some of the people who were forced to move to Pakistan suffered heavily. Once the news of the train full of slaughtered people reached across India, the retaliation was swift and merciless. East Punjab with the exception of the state of Malerkotla was as ethnically cleansed as the West Punjab was. (The Muslims of Malerkotla were spared because the Nawab of Malerkotla was the only Muslim voice that protested the brutal killing of the two younger sons of Guru Gobind Singh by burying them alive in a brick wall, by the government of Aurangzeb).

Nazarhayatkhan,

You are too kind. I have appreciated your praise for the last two stories and was anticipating your comments for this one.

Dost-miterji,

Thanks for the words of encouragement and advice. I don’t know where I will go from here. One reason for these prolific writings was that my wife went for a long visit to India and I had too much time on my hand. She is coming back soon and I will be too busy to give enough time to writing.

Roshan ,

You are a very angry person. Read my reply to Studebaker. These events are way in the past and it is no use getting you blood pressure high on them. I did not figure out your reference to ’ugly kashmiris’.

Very well written and touching story of the rolleaN era.

The trend is decidedly changed now. More and more people write about pre-rolleaN era - about friendships, frankness, romance, yearning etc. It is like holocaust stories. First about sufferings, brutalities, victims and victimisers, then ``sound of music`` and Schindler`s list and then movies like ``fiddler on the roof``. Now more and more stories are about friendships, growing up, inter-religious romance between Anwer, Mohan and Jaswant or Zainab, Aasha and Jagmohan Kaur.

Soon after partition and lasting for about 40 years, nationalists (not the progressive and leftist writers) on both side wrote stories, poems, made movies, and media propagated them to strengthen the irreversibility of the time gone by. But it does not make much appeal now because 1) most of the people are post-partition generation due to population boom, 2) most people did not participate in it, 3) the Mustafas and Ruxanas outnumbered rioters and criminals and 4) the rolleaN era can not whitewash all history of people living together mostly peacefully but occasionally unhappily. They stood shoulder to shoulder just 20-30 tears before rolleaN in Ghadar movement and Kirti Kisan movement. They died together at JulliaNwala Bagh. The migrants to India produced hardliners like L. K. Advani but also much more respectful across the borders, I. K. Gujral. Similarly on Pakistan side for every Zia ul Haq and Musharraf, many migrant people do not look across the border with hate.

Humans have the capacity to forgive and forget a short era of 6-12 months, despite extensive sufferings of people. One can be constantly reminded of the negatives as well as trying to ease the pains by remembering the good times together. ``Gone with the wind`` is not the most popular book or movie in the south despite brutal civil war in America. German cities were carpet bombed by allies just two years before the rolleaN but Germans and Japanese (despite atomic bombs dropped) are no longer hating Americans.

People belonging to same culture find ways and put extra effort to mend fences. British and American did it 30-40 years after American Independence war. Germans and Austrians did it soon after second world war and West and East Germans did it 10 years ago. It has been 55 years for Panjabis. The future of Panjabis is in the hand of Panjabis. They can continue to deal rolleaN as the most defining moment in their 2-3 thousand years existance or try to get over it. Panjabis are still dying fighting each other in the name of mother countries. How many dead bodies from Kashmir go to Maharashtra, Bengal or Balochistan as compared to coming to both Panjabs? How is this dying different from a dying person in rolleaN? They all want Panjabis to fight to the last drop for India and Pakistan. When was the last time any non-Panjabis fought for Panjabis? They were fooled over and over and finally three British trained lawyers successfully fooled them again - into diving them and butchering each other with no effort, none whatsoever, to stop the bloodbath. Even a fool could see it comng but they had selfish political goals to focus upon than human tragedies. How many times did Gandhi, Nehru and Jinnah visit Panjab during the peak of rioting, January 1947 - August 1947?

The sad part is that people did not learn from such a havoc in their history. Pakistan repeated it in Bangladesh and Balochistan and India did it to naxalite, Sikhs and Sikh again following the assassination of Indira Gandhi. Can a Sikh victim of rolleaN and then of military action in Panjab accept the later one and deject the first one? That is why I do not accept the Jewish logic of aggressive holocaust marketing as a mean to deter it from happening again. The way to stop the rolleaN happening again is by going the opposite direction - of friendship, love, understanding and respect.

Jagmohan, it is not about you at all or your story. Your article does have sound of music type background and does not make political statement.

sameerJB #21
Please take IK Gujral with my best wishes. Also take Kuldip Nayar and the rest of the homesick Punjabi Hindu/Sikh crowd - soldiers included. I am sure you will keep them safe from the evil Indians. And at least then Kashmiri Hindus or Tamilian Muslims willnot be expected to foot the bill for this friendship.

But please, if you decide to have a Punjabi nation of your own, donot try to have it both ways again - take EVERY SINGLE Punjabi living in EVERY SINGLE corner of India into your nation, donot leave even one cousin by marriage behind.

I seriously doubt that another half and half deal with Punjabis this time(we are a separate nation and noone else can live in it but we can live anywhere in India) like happened with Muslims and Kashmiris- will be allowed by Indians to happen again.

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12-head #24
``I am most dissappointed in a peacenik who justifies settlement by threat of ANGER ``

Allah has ordained that only Muslims have the right to be angry and justify settlement by threat of anger, of course. What a set of hypocrites.

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sadna:
If I had any authority over the affairs in Pakistan, I would have welcomed not just Gujral and Nayar but all those who wish to visit their ancestoral homes or visit as tourists. Sure, Panjais can live anywhere in India but given the choice they prefer to live in London, New York, Toronto and Vancouver.

By the way, were there too many Panjabi sentences in this article that kept you away from commenting about the article?

sameerJB #27
The article is a good one as were the others written by Mr Chadha. A number of people have partition-era stories - even my own family which is nonPunjabi has one. I prefer to comment on your comments.

``Sure, Panjabis can live anywhere in India but given the choice they prefer to live in London, New York, Toronto and Vancouver. ``

I didnot say they CAN live anywhere in India, I said they DO live all over India. If there is in future a Punjabi nation, they will have to leave.

btw the Punjabis in Okara donot want to live in Toronto - they only want to live in Okara - but the better sort of Punjabis in your Army donot want them to - (the same ones whom did you say died on your borders 30 years ago ?)

Anyway who cares about the Okara sort of Punjabis. Only the goras at Amnesty International prob. The issue of Punjabis in India seems to be a lot more hot topic among Pakistanis than their own people.

#28 by sadna on May 17, 2003 9:16pm PT

``Sure, Panjabis can live anywhere in India but given the choice they prefer to live in London, New York, Toronto and Vancouver. ``

No ...you don`t have any right to make such harsh judgements...
don`t live in your imaginary world....we prefer to live in our motherland India more than any other state people. India belongs to punjab and vice versa..as much as any other state does...
One partition was enough...we are not going anywhere now..OK? The contributions of all communities have to be valued in India itself..

``If there is in future a Punjabi nation, they will have to leave. ``

IT`S A PITY..you SERIOUSLY TALK ABOUT THIS..we only tried to tease and provoke pakistan to give its part of punjab..and you took it seriously...
anyway ...we should not care what you say abt punjabis..India doesn`t belong to south indians alone..or north indians alone...nor will

`` The issue of Punjabis in India seems to be a lot more hot topic among Pakistanis than their own people. ``

As if we care if it does....
---------

Sadna..you need to know more about Indian punjabis..esp hindu punjabis..before making any judgements about them

#22 by sadna on May 17, 2003 9:47am PT
+sameerJB #21
Please take IK Gujral with my best wishes. Also take Kuldip Nayar and the rest of the homesick Punjabi Hindu/Sikh crowd - soldiers included. I am sure you will keep them safe from the evil Indians. And at least then Kashmiri Hindus or Tamilian Muslims willnot be expected to foot the bill for this friendship.
But please, if you decide to have a Punjabi nation of your own, donot try to have it both ways again - take EVERY SINGLE Punjabi living in EVERY SINGLE corner of India into your nation, donot leave even one cousin by marriage behind.
I seriously doubt that another half and half deal with Punjabis this time(we are a separate nation and noone else can live in it but we can live anywhere in India) like happened with Muslims and Kashmiris- will be allowed by Indians to happen again. ++

Sadna..what have you been writing? Just read your post again. I think you misunderstood what others wrote.
Which Punjabi Hindu or Sikh is home sick? Do you now mean Pakistan is our home?? How can u say such a thing!!
Don`t u know that when our ancestors lived in paksitani area..that time it was not paksitan..it was India like the present day India. But now it is not. Why should we be homesick?? All we want to say is that no hindu who left his land behind could think of going back again to even see the total Islamic land they have made out of it. But India continues to have all religions

So what makes you think that any punjabi has any less or more right on the Indian land now.
If people say ask the Paksitanis to give us their part fo punjab so that Punjab can be a seprate country..do you know what we mean??
WE want to tell them that just like they keep harping about Kashmir..how would they feel if they had to give their Punjab away??
We want to tell them that before thinking of breaking India they should break their country first. It was formation of Paksitan that divided the land of Punjab...it was paksitan that encouraged terrorism in punjab so a s to break India...but were not successful..all that is history now.
Paksitan told punjab to break away from india but why doesn`t it give us its part fo punjab???

First of all --a question to you...who are Punjabis?? Don`t they include Hindu punjabis, Christians, muslims and all...just like all other states?AND..Where would the hindu punjabis go if punjab becomes a country(not that it will ever).
And who says nobody else can live in punjab except punjabis?? Sadna..you wrote some imaginary stuff in your last para..

Do you really think indian punjabis want a seperate country? BIG NO thousand times. We are more of if not as much of real Indians than anybody else..we contributed so much in freedom struggle..and suffered so much in partition..so how can our country belong more to those who did not..

msouza #30
``
``Sure, Panjabis can live anywhere in India but given the choice they prefer to live in London, New York, Toronto and Vancouver. ``

I didnot make that comment, I was REPLYING to it.

``India belongs to punjab ... ``

Good, thats what I thought. I often see no connection of what is said about Indians here and my own experience.

So long as Punjabis on either side of the border understand at the outset that I(and I trust my countrymen) will personally help dispatch every Punjabi out of India to any future Punjabi nation in preference to being left with the `both here and there contradiction` baby.

I had gone out for a day and came back and saw 28 messages and there were only 20 when I left. My intial thought was wow, people must have loved my story. Very soon had to come down to earth, when I realise I was sadly mistaken.

Sadna,

Thanks for saying that the articles were good, even though it came to me second hand.

After reading your replies, I had to go and reread Sameerjb`s post, because my impression of it was different from what you seemed to imply. You seemed to be saying that he was advocating another division of India and Pakistan to create a third nation of Punjab.
Howver althought he is talking about us punjabi paying for blood for others, he did not advocate an independent nation of Punjab any where. He can clarify further if he feels like. For me the first Partion was a mistake, and happened because the bull headedness of some of our leaders. (Both Pakistanis and Indian).

However as of present, although I am nostalgic for west punjab, where our families lived for ages and some of our culture was born, I would not dream of a confederation of the two countries. The forces that divided this country are even more radical than at the time of partition. However, I would like to have peace and some what open borders, so that people can visit if they want to.

Also, like M said, you seem to have taken the mantle of Indian ness upon your self and put us Punjabis whether Sikhs or Hindus in the category of thems, just because of what a Pakistani said. You didn`t need to worry of the thoughts and feelingness of Indian Punjabis. Let me tell you the Punjabi, Sindhis and Bengalis, who had to migrate from the new muslim country, were not only Indians because they were born so, but also had their Indianness reconfirmed at the cost of a lot of blood and loss of fortunes. So if anything we have a better claim to Indianness than any other born Indians.

And what is this talk of despatching anybody any where. India is one country and while punjabis may be every where else in India, there are people in Punjab from all parts of the country.

Sameerjb,

There was a time when the Indian army constituted of mostly people from northwestern India, but it is much more amalgamated now. There has been a lot of south Indian blood spilled along with the northern in defence of Kashmir. That is one reason why all Indians are now so much anti Pakistan now than before.

All said and done I hope one day the humanity matures enough so that national boundries are just lines on the map and people can go where ever they want because this earth belongs to all humans.

Sadna, Reading your last post I am sure you are not joking. Now that you are willing to ``personally`` take such a big responsibility on your shoulders..let us make a deal.-). I will personally make sure that we will bring back every Punjabi..and I mean every single one from Peshawar to Calcutta... from every corner of India and Pakistan to our country Punjab if you promise to take every non-Punjabi living in greater Punjab that British annexed to India and you inherited...that includes every Aghan refugee and usurper, Bihari, UPite, Bengali, etc settled in the areas of both Punjabs, Haryana and parts of Himachal. Promise?:-)
(in the next negotiation meeting we will divide the nuke stocks).

I think there has been some misinterpretation of few posts going on here below. but it brought some good points. If nationalism based on Kashmiriyat, Punjabiyat, Assamese, Telgu etc etc is bad why is it so good based on Hindi? Urdu? Islam? etc? As a matter of practicality, realpolitic, geographical situation and above all the cards that history has dealt us with, everyone having a separet country may not be feasible or practical or economically wise but that does not mean one group should place his head on anvil to be struck by another group. I am some times surprised talking to some of our Pakistani and Indian nationalists how they want smaller identities and groups back home intermingle and become one homogeneous country where no one ever mentions his or her kasmiriyat, Sidhiyat,Maratha, Punjabiyat etc(because doing so automatically is considered un-patriotic). and same people living in USA are working tirelessly celebrating 14th and 15th of Ausgust, building separate community centers, teaching their kids languages that have no practical value in USA.,,so much so that some even take pride in mentioning that they buy ALL their groceries from Indian marts ONLY. ..for what? to keep their Indian/Pakistani identity intact. bhai if it is not good for smaller groups back home to safeguard their identities, it is not good for you to do the same in USA either.

Sadna, this point of Punjabis living in every corner of India has been brought here before too. I don`t know the exact number of Punjabis living outside of originally Punjabi areas....but my gut feeling based on the changing demographics of Punjab in the last 25 years is that the number is probably not any larger than the non-punjabis living in Punjab. So your threats of ethnic cleansing are all hot air.

dullabhatti,others
No I am not joking. You do your worst, and expect me to do the worst in return too. These half-baked ideas of separatism mostly from overseas elites (who never intend to return) at the expense of their India-based compatriots who have no other home, will certainly be punished in full.

btw, I NEVER hear Kuldip Nayar or IK Gujral speak up on Punjabi issues in India, their Punjabiat seems to be restricted to interactions with Pakistanis, am I mistaken?

ajeet: Thanks for understanding what I meant in my post. By the way, what is that black and white picture in your article about? Is it traveling refugees or the picture of your village?

m_souza:
I think you switched responding me to sadna and response to her to me. Anyway, I understand your viewpoint regarding many issues. Is it possible to look at this issue without bringing India-Pakistan or Kashmir out of it. Perhaps I did not do a good job near the end to my post but still any conclusion to attempt to weaken Indianness of Indians or dividing or uniting anything could not be drawn from it. I am not for it and it does not help anybody. India is a fortunate country in the sense that th mode of weakening of Indianness is only available as option for people wishing independent state and not at all in favor of any neighboring country.

sadna:
I was surprised at your comments about Gujral and Nayar. Basically you implied that homesickness and friendliness towards Pakistan or some Pakistanis make two of them less Indian nationalist/ patriotic than Rsaxena, harimau and m_souza. This is no different than many Pakistanis here who think friendliness towards India/ Indians makes one less patriotic Pakistani because (according to them) Pakistan is basically not-India. Many of us (you included) have been so strongly opposed to such nonsense. Both the last Pakistani prime ministers, BB and NS, were softer towards India than Musharraf and so are People like Pervez Hoodbhoy, Asma Jahangir and many others. They are no less patriotic Pakistanis or should be sent to India. How can you say such things about two patriotic Indians whose credentials of Indianness have never been challenged except by some BJP hardliners?

Although my post was not very clearly written but nowhere I suggested anything like union, independent Panjab or dividing further. I strictly meant for Panjabis to understand the power politics of subcontinent and take steps for such brutalities do not happen again. One such step, from writers point of view was to write stories about culture or frinedships or growing up in pre-partition days. It is already happening because many of the foreign-born diasporic Panjabis do not have obligation to follow Pakistani or Indian nationalistic or politically motivated doctrines. They have extended families abroad and Indian or Pakistani are merely an identity, whereas in practice it is Panjabi only. Who can blame them? They can not be taught that once a failure, always a failure; once an enemy, always an enemy or once a power failure at 2:00 PM, always load shedding at 2:00 PM. Honestly speaking, a person born and raised in diaspora owes nothing to India or Pakistan, unless they are indoctrinated by their families at home. These people go to bhangra together, eat together, speak the same language, play music together and so on. You can not blame them for doing poor service to their compatriots back in subcontinent.

This is what I started my last post that more and more hostilities based on partition are melting away among Panjabis. Please do not think that I take partition riots any less evil but I can never feel the same pain as those who actually suffered. My parents did not migrate anywhere but sufferings do not come in just one shape and kind of partition riots. Sufferings from poverty related issues, invasions, plunderings and overlordship of foreigners have been part of Panjabi life for more than 1000 years in which most families suffered. There were no 50 years in row that Sikhs did not suffer from persecutions and wars. Partition riot was another in the line of sufferings for them - unfortunately not the last one. However, they have refused to promote and market perpetual victims history, like Jews.

Sadna, my point is that movies like ``Shaheed-e-mohabbat`` are much better than ``border`` type movies. I don`t think, Gurdas Mann was trying to weaken the Indianness of Indian Panjabis. Since you mention it, let me be as clear as I can, about what I think. I do not support further division or reuniting two Panjabs. I accept and respect international boundries of two countries, although Panjabi Muslims might have to gain a lot from the union. But there is nothing in it for Panjabi Sikhs and Hindus. They must be out of their mind to think of independent Panjab with majority Muslim population and the current trend of Islam running wild. It is only possible if Panjabi Muslims shed part of Panjab, like Saraiki speaking southern Panjab and become smaller and equal in numbers with Sikhs and Hindus.

But some born and raised and established in diaspora Panjabis, who are on the forefront of independent wishing/ dreaming Panjabi nation, look at it differently. They see all culture either having or few seeking independence. They see only 5 million Palestinians fighting and dying for independence. They saw people getting independence in Balkan - former Yugoslavia despite having as similar cultures as southasians.

Therefore you must forget about me supporting anything like this. It is not going to take place in my lifetime but nobody can predict future. I just wish whatever changes take place in future are as bloodless as possible. I am satisfied whatever cards nature has dealt me in terms of identity and I would remain satisfy even if the political map of southasia changes as long as it is bloodless. I wish Bangladesh creation was bloodless and on negotiation table instead of mass scale atrocities.

Since we are dealing with half-baked ideas, here are some more :)

1. Punjabi Nation (PN) will have status of Bhutan with India and Pakistan having joint responsibilities in Global and defense affairs. Sadna and Urstruly will be the co-CEOs appointed for life to keep us in line.
2. Every official ceremony will start and end with Bhangra.
3. National anthem will be “number one Punjabi”.
4. National language will be Punjabi in English script.
5. There will be no official religion and SameerJB will be our minister of virtues ala Bill Bennett. I am betting that Sameer is not a big time gambler.
6. Every Punjabi will have to pass patangbaji exam to get high school certificate.
7. Any rioter will be executed in public square right away ala Saudi Arabia. Both co-CEOs will have to sign the death warrant. This will insure that we will not kill people at will.
8. Our major exports will be in entertainment area – Kanjars, actors/actresses etc.

Now here is the incentive for all to make it a huge success - If Punjabis behave properly, India and Pakistan would handover whole Kashmir to PN. They will get rid of a big problem, Sadna and Urstruly will see their empire grow and poor Kashmiris will have to learn Punjabi (This will be little less painful than the mess they are in today).

Unfortunately, this is all a pipe dream. The reason it won’t work - What will we do after 70-80 years when Sadna and Urstruly are no more. Who will watch after India and Pakistan’s interests?

oh so now I will punished by self-appointed governor general of India AKA sadna for mentioning such dirty words like Kashmiriyat, Punjabiyat, Assamese etc. What makes you the spokesman of India and not me? My elders fought and shed their blood for the soul of India for generations. If Pakistan steps even 1 mile into Indian teritorry my cousins, uncles and nephews will be drawn into fight unlike yourself who have only heard about pakistan through Internet and Ztv. It was me who was calling Amritsar and Tarn Taaran every evening during the last stand off to find out if my beloved one are ok. What makes you the saviour of India and me an enemy of it? remember I did not float the idea of separate country you others did and I only expanded on it.(jokingly). This is your self righteous behaviour of I am India, my idea of what India is the right one hence I am the true Indian that is so relpulsive and insulting to some people that I don`t blame them if they disagree with you.

If I have no right to talk about Punjab and Punjabiyat just because you assume I may not go back to live there what gives you the right to talk about India day and night? Are you not NRI?

So much for democracy, justice and peace..``we will punish them fully who disagree with us and ethnically cleanse them``. Great job!!

I swear whenever I am feeling repulsed by the jihadis and start feeliing hatred for them I bump into these arrogant Indians who make me think twice. ufff.fi

Sad-ass:
There is actually an appropriate psychiatric diagnosis for you: Schizophrenia of the delusional/paranoid type. Nothing that some Haldol or risperidone won`t help with, though.
How do you expect to ``punish`` ideas? nimrod.
Sameer is right. How many of your south indian brethren do you see coming back in coffins?
Ajeet, the amalgamation you mention the the Indian armed forces may be true in the higher echelons, however the rank and file compromise of almost 20% Sikhs.
On a somewhat related issue, it would be the humane thing to do for the Pakistani government to release the hundreds of former POWs currently languishing in their jails, as described by the 20 freed indian prisoners today.

Dulla bhatti #38,

My sentiments indeed and well put. If I had read you post before I started writing mine, there wouldn`t have been a need to post my last comments addressed to Sadna.

Sameer,

The picture is something I picked up while surfing the web. It seemed appropriate to the theme of the story. In the large picture the details showed a lonely figure walking on a path. Beyond the figure the path disappearing into the mist. However the reduction killed the idea. I wish they had posted the pic in the original size.

Sadna,

In the past I have defended some of you post and even chastized Shanker when he used vulgar language against you. However, you may not care, but you past posts make me think a lot less of you. After your first outburst against Sameerjb, I thought it was just a case of misunderstanding, however your subsequent post have proved that you are just an Indian version of the Pakistani jihadis you rant so much about. You did not even have the curtsy to reply to the question, which I and some people raised, and bunched us all together as Dullahati and others.

I hope for the sake of India that there are not many with views like yours and Indian democracy still allows people to air their views and yes be proud of being Punjabi, Bihari, Marathas, or Tamils and so on while still being Indians. The day India has the majority of people with paranoia like you will be the first day of its path for breakup.

I don`t know which southern state you belong to, but if you are tamil, have you forgotten when DMK wanted their own country.

Sameer: good post. I would have said the same thing only if I was not pissed off.:-)

#31 by sadna on May 18, 2003 7:57am PT
+msouza #30
`` ``Sure, Punjabis can live anywhere in India but given the choice they prefer to live in London, New York, Toronto and Vancouver. ``
I didnot make that comment, I was REPLYING to it. ++

Sadna…What is your definition of a Punjabi?? A Sikh only? Or Hindu/Sikh/Christian/Muslim Punjabis..

At one time..for us North Indians…all South Indians used to be Madraasees..were we right???? Are all South Indians Hindu?? What about Muslim South Indians? Are they more of Indians than Hindu/Sikh Punjabis??
It has always been known that Tamilians used brag about their separate identity and ages old culture. They didn’t want to speak Hindi our national language. In Sydney they only teach Tamil to their kids and not Hindi. But Punjabis don’t mind anything and have no problem with Hindi..
Don’t Malyalees live in Arabic lands? In Australia we have more south Indians that north Indians. Weren’t Fiji Indians Biharis/UP ites once??

OK..What about Lal Krishan Advani? Is he less of a patriot just because his ancestors were from Sindh ..Paksitan??
We all assume Advani is more of an aggressive patriot.. more of it just because he has seen it all first hand…the pain of partition and the division of India. Advani keeps on repeating, “ We won’t allow another partition of India.” He says this because he has seen it.
Similarly, many many(not all) Punjabis have had ancestors who suffered for their country and so THEY LOVE THEIR COUNTRY AGGRESSIVELY..they lose their temper (like advani) at the mention of very Pakistani idiosyncrasies or deceptions

SO FOR GOD SAKE…SADNA……WAKE UP!! You have some very wrong ideas.
Anyway..you are the only one who talks like this. In real life I have not seen any Indian ..from any state..look indifferently at others or put each other down....we are far too united…


And Sadna…I never said : ``India belongs to punjab ... ``
Did you read the full line?
I said in my post no 30: “India belongs to punjab and vice versa..as much as any other state does...”
Vice versa means Punjab too belongs to India…but you picked one part to suit you.
Indians are Punjabis as Punjabis are Indians…as much as Kannadigas or Oriyaas or Bengalis or Madrassis or Kerelites of Manipuris.
And even the Maharashtrians who are fully soaked in their patriotism for Marathaland & its culture more than that of Indian. They say “Jai Shiva ji” at their functions”.. Even Marathas are as much of Indians as any other state people and not any more or less..
Would it eb right to say that Maharashtrians only love their own state?/
But if a Sikh remembers his Guru Gobind singh ji…then what is wrong in that?? Both fought for their country and were great men.
I am not a Sikh ..I am a Hindu..but I believe that every Indian has a right to follow any religion and yet be a patriotic Indian. Sikhism is anyway indeginous and native to India..so much similar to Hinduism too. And I have seen every Hindu have high regards for it ..only you are doubtful..

++”So long as Punjabis on either side of the border understand at the outset that I (and I trust my countrymen) will personally help dispatch every Punjabi out of India to any future Punjabi nation in preference to being left with the `both here and there contradiction` baby. “++

Who are you to deport any Indian out? Why can’t we deport you out? I also trust my countrymen that they will help me in this as you are trying to pollute the atmosphere.

I submitted my post 42 before post 40. Some how they appeared in opposite sequence.

Sadna..
Tamilians are very freindly with Sri Lankans due to same language adn culture..same Gods too. Does it mean they are less of loyal Indians than say....Biharis or punjabis?
And then ..we are not even unnecessarily freindly with pakis...if Gujaral or khushwant singh say something ...we can`t assume every punjabi feels the same.

Its nice to make everyone run around like headless chickens.

m_souza, I do think India belongs to Punjab (and Punjab belongs to India) like you said. I was agreeing with you!

I have nothing against ethnic nationalism, or regionalism or pride in one`s heritage and language - India is an example of how regional consciousness and a larger consciousness can both be combined, giving benefits of both. Hence Punjabis or Malyalis genius is not restricted to any corner of the country, India can offer them a much larger scope - while also recognising the demands of a separate language, history, culture and separate consciousness.

So I donot disagree with anyone who is cursing me here. Why don`t you read again my posts instead of cursing me?

My WHOLE and SOLE problem is with `half-baked separatism`. J&K is NOT a good example, given India`s bad record there, but take it as an example anyway.

I know Kashmiri Muslims who had to leave Kashmir for jobs and education elsewhere in India because of the insurgency. I know of Kashmiri Hindus who have had to do the same. We already know there are Kashmiri Muslims in the state govt. and others like Shias and Gujjars who are not separatist in tendency. The Hurriyat doesnot give two hoots for the sentiments of those in the Jammu and Ladakh region. Pakistan doesnot give two hoots for Kashmiri Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists. What is the use of such nationalism or such Kashmiriyat?

I would be wholly for Kashmiri independence if the separatism had taken the trouble to incorporate most sections of Kashmiri society and most shades of opinion. But what happens is, that a few people choose to play with fire and many get burnt. (I am NOT excusing India`s role in starting the fire or stoking it - this is just an example to explain my POV).

Those who talk of one ethnicity vs other ethnicities must understand the interdependence inherent in diverse societies, and in India. I have posted on this subject before to Sameer where I told him, our Army is integrated, our civil services are integrated. The other day I heard secondhand how the Kerala Christian community has started understanding the situation now that soldiers from their church are also being brought home to be buried. I find it hard to accept that mostly Punjabis are dying in this conflict. But Punjabis do suffer due to living in border areas - no question.


Many of us have not only one but dual or triple regional loyalities - how is one to decide that if say Kannadigas are getting a bad deal, am I the one getting a bad deal or am I giving someone else a bad deal?

Saying how one ethnicity is suffering because of others is just too simplistic an explanation of these interdependences. Each region must demand its due - no question. But if for example, Punjabis one day say Punjab is only for Punjabis then will it not weaken the position of Punjabis all over India - shouldn`t one care for those consequences too?

Similarly if Indian Punjabis say, why doesnot India compromise with Pakistan, because we want to be friendly with Pakistani Punjabis - should they also not think through the consequences of any compromise which will affect say Kerala Muslims too?

Just like I tell Hindutva vadis (some of whom who will never live in India) that they are wrong to talk in simplistic terms about Hindu nationalism or claim a superior nationalism to Indian Muslims who live in India, so I will inform those who indulge in similar idle talk of other types of ethnic nationalism, what could be the consequences of that idle talk. Please pursue your nationalism as you please - but please take EVERY COMPLEXITY INTO ACCOUNT -there are real lives at stake in these issues -this is a fact beyond my control, not a threat.

If Sameer didnot mean it that way - well good. I am glad if he understands all of the above. I am all for Pakistani-Indian Punjabi linkages. Under influence of chowk, I have even taken to asking my Punjabi friends why they donot speak more Punjabi.

#35 by sadna on May 18, 2003 1:56pm PT
``dullabhatti,others
These half-baked ideas of separatism mostly from overseas elites (who never intend to return) at the expense of their India-based compatriots who have no other home``

Here you may be somewhat right. None of the resident Indians ever wanted a separate country. And they still don`t. But noone wants it now...it is history..

Only some.... mostly NRIs were misled by the paksitanis into creating terror in punjab once. But the native indian punjabis paid more than the price for it. I have seen it all first hand..the terrorism and the aftermath and all..the inocents paid the price for the deeds of a few.
And govt also went wrong that time..

That is why I asked pakis to part with thier punjab and not to create trouble in indian punjab or kashmir. Do you get it now?

For your country`s sake ..It is better to heal the forgotten wounds than to go on opening them.

#33 by dullabhatti on May 18, 2003 11:25am PT

“I am some times surprised talking to some of our Pakistani and Indian nationalists how they want smaller identities and groups back home intermingle and become one homogeneous country where no one ever mentions his or her kasmiriyat, Sidhiyat,Maratha, Punjabiyat etc(because doing so automatically is considered un-patriotic).”

Dullabhatti ji…This is something unuasual you told. I don’t think anyone in India would think it is unpatriotic to relate to any particular state…actually people do that all the time without being rebuked. If you hear people talking to each other while travelling by train..they take pride in being a maratha or a Punjabi and yet being an indian

“and same people living in USA are working tirelessly celebrating 14th and 15th of Ausgust, building separate community centers, teaching their kids languages “

Well…one can’t and should not forget one’s roots..we are Indians anywhere we stay..
But yes…back home..there is less of patriotism, more westernization..more internal politics

“bhai if it is not good for smaller groups back home to safeguard their identities, it is not good for you to do the same in USA either.”
People safeguard their identities in India as well as in other countries..everyone does that..Italians, veitnamese, chinese living in USA..


#32 by ajeet on May 18, 2003 10:07am PT

“Howver althought he is talking about us punjabi paying for blood for others, he did not advocate an independent nation of Punjab any where. He can clarify further if he feels like. “

I think I mentioned something about a Punjab being formed out of Pakistani Punjab. By this I didn’t mean any harm being done to Indian Punjab. I wanted Pakistanis to realise that if they are so sympathetic towards Kashmiris that they are helping them form their own nation..then why not give Paki Punjab away so that it can unite with Indian Punjab. Now we all know noone is going to do anything.

”However as of present, although I am nostalgic for west punjab, where our families lived for ages and some of our culture was born, I would not dream of a confederation of the two countries. “

And weren’t most of us were born in independent India..just like sadna..


“All said and done I hope one day the humanity matures enough so that national boundries are just lines on the map and people can go where ever they want because this earth belongs to all humans.”

That would be the best..

Sameer #37
``Basically you implied that homesickness and friendliness towards Pakistan or some Pakistanis make two of them less Indian nationalist/ patriotic than Rsaxena, harimau and m_souza. ``


No, I question their Punjabiyat if it doesnot extend to concern for Indian Punjabis.

How many times have they raised the question of Punjabi farmers` suicides in Parliament?

How many times have they discussed crop insurance or salination of aquifers? Have they addressed patent issues facing India in WTO wrt the crops grown in Punjab?

How many times have they raised the question of Punjabi youth are found dead in ship containers, or trapped in Europe or Mexico due to illegal migration and unscruplous body smugglers?

Why don`t they talk of how to generate employment for Punjabis so that the young men donot have to migrate?

How many times have these hazrats discussed the huge problem of female foeticide in Punjab and campaigned against it like the SGPC is doing?Has each of them even said one sentence about these?

I don`t question their Indian nationalism, I question their professed concern for Punjabiyat. Does Punjabiyat mean only nostalgia literature, poetry readings and socializing of rich Punjabis?

#47 by sadna on May 18, 2003 9:23pm PT
``Similarly if Indian Punjabis say, why doesnot India compromise with Pakistan, because we want to be friendly with Pakistani Punjabis -``

WHAT?? who said that..don`t we say the opposite always

``I am all for Pakistani-Indian Punjabi linkages. ``

Sadna ..you maybe...we don`t care.
Well, if things go right between our countries then maybe..but till then..
For me at least..I have Indian friends everywhere..of all states, langauges..etc..doesn`t matter if they can`t speak my language or not and we speak English together..
We have dinners together sharing dosas and paranthas..and roshogullas..

So the headless chickens found their heads.

m_souza #50

Of the following two common goals for identity politics

1. Emotional or ideological satisfaction/material success of a small number of elites at the cost of goal 2

2. Increased life options or opportunities for the large number of NONELITE to improve their standard of life while also holding on to their culture


I support India-Pakistan Punjabi cooperation and friendship to achieve goal 2 only.

Sadna, thanks for the clarification. I for one don`t support any Punjabi nationalism that excludes any other Punjabi group. I am actually in a head on conflict on the issue with my co-religionists in real life whom I openly accuse of attaching our mother language to the religion and hence contributing to further alienation of other Punjabis plus limiting the scope of the language. On me working for it in real life instead talking on chowk...I feel the biggest problem Punjabis everywhere including India and Pakistan face today is to keep alive their language.(same is true for many other sub-continental languages) It is under attack from Hindi, English, Urdu, Islamists, Hinduists, khalistanis alike in one form or the other. I live and breath my mother language every day, I can`t see that happen. My struggle is on in that direction.

As for Pakistani Punjabis in parliament passing resolutions on suicide deaths of Indian Punjabis..heck no...I am Indian, I am Punjabi, I am Sikh..I can`t get away with it without getting accused of being a separatist who only barks from a foreign land and will not go back, how those Pakistani Punjabis will be labeled is no guess work. Remember it was only few months ago(Dost-mittar ji was in India back then) when Pakistani Punjabi delegation was refused Visas by India to attend a purely literary conference in New Delhi. I did not see anyone condemning that here from Indian side?
In a nutshell, Punjabis are not in the way of peace between India and Pakistan, it is India and Pakistan which is in the way of any coperation between the two punjabis, cultural, arts, economic etc.

dullabhatti #51
``As for Pakistani Punjabis in parliament passing resolutions on suicide deaths of Indian Punjabis``

My post #49 was specifically about IK Gujral and Kuldip Nayar, not about Pakistani Punjabis.

IMO, India didnot approve of visas for the Punjabi literary conference because that was part of its general policy of Indo-Pak freeze at the time - it was not a Punjabi-specific action as far as one can tell.

Since then things are different. India allowed a unofficial group of Pakistani Parliamentarians to cross over at Wagah to visit and tour India and a return visit by an unofficial delegation of Indian MPs headed by Sharad Pawar is talked of.

Also BBC reported that the Indian tea company BrookeBond - Tetley signed a deal worth $5 million with a Pakistani tea company, including setting up a tea processing plant in Balochistan.

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You dumbass 12-head (is it one of the 12 heads, Sadna or Saminashah?) go read history and we are living in May 2003 and not in independence movement or 7th century Arabia.

Panjabis never wanted partition. Read the proceedings of roundtable conferences and the only Panjabi representatives there including Master Tara Singh. They were made helpless due to separate electorate that should have never been accepted by Congress. In 1946 elections, Muslim voter turn out was lower than Sikhs and Hindus (traditionally) and still divided between ML and Unionists. It was accummulation of failures by the national leaderships that caused riots by the criminals elements, goons and hooligans. Don`t you see the thin support of anti-India Islamic hardliners in P-Panjab and anti-Pakistan BJP hardliners in former I-Panjab (HP, Panjab and Haryana) even to this day?

More to sadna, m_souza and dullabhatti later today...........

Dilshad, you seem to be one of those who still believe partition happened because of riots in Punjab. Riots started in March in Punjab. Partition happened in August. Go figure that out.

If everyone was open enough to drink that great stuff coming out of brewary we would be hugging each other like crazy. try it some time brother.

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sadna:
I hope you don`t have any hard feeling interacting here. Some time it helps to lock horns towards better understanding. I compared Gujral with Advani and I have no idea of how poor or good he played internal Indian politics. The thing is and I hope you agree with me that Pakistanis do not have democracy and Indians do not have perfect democracy with representatives foremost responibility to serve their constituents in best possible way instead of joining the elite and powerful club and proper check and balances.

I also have different view about India not granting visas to Pakistani delegation for World Panjabi Conference. I think it has to do with internal Indian politics. India can not ask for any better group of Pakistanis to visit Delhi and condemn terrorism, terrorist camps, fundamentalism, suicide attacks and civilian massacres in Kashmir. These people are all left-of-center and most understanding and friendly towards India. The reason was that Indian hosts of WPC publicized it as a major major event with Sonia Gandhi at the center stage inaugurating it. The Congress had already won elections in Panjab and such show of fanfare would have given boast to Sonia among Panjabis. The BJP did not want to see Sonia Gandhi and Congress strengthening their lock on Panjabi voters and thus pulled the plug on it. Since Panjabi vote is rather small at national level Indian politics, it is dispensable for BJP whose strength comes from Gujrat, Maharashtra, Rajisthan, UP and MP. The Delhi and Panjab seats combined can not make or break any government in India.

As far Panjabi language is concerned, it is out of the bottle and can not be put back. Not only Mughal and British era is over but for liberal/ secular intellegntia, the partition and independent movement is also history. I personally do not see much difference between those wishing to go back to seventh century Arabia or to live by the events of 1940s. It is either living with the realities of today or all bets are off. That is why, you can`t find a single post of mine supporting plebisicite in Kashmir. I am also against terrorism, suicide bombing, civilain massacres, terrorist camps and ISI involvement. It is rather useless to argue with me about Kashmir because I diametrically oppose Pakistani stand. If Panjab can be divided, so is Kashmir along the line of control. Like Panjabis, Kashmiris can also find ways through some aspect of culture to connect/ interact with each other at cultural level. I also do not believe at all that Pakistan`s dignity and honor is in anyway tied to Kashmir. The dignity and honor of both countries is tied to serving people of their respected countries through good economy, better education, opportunities and justice for all. Nothing helps achieve these goals better than peace. Only stupids do not understand the high margin yields and dividends of peace in the region.

I sincerely hope that US puts as much pressure as possible on Pakistan to end their side of involvement in the internal affairs of India in Kashmir and elsewhere.

m_souza:
I am glad to see some reflection of intra-Indian dialogue which is a rarity at chowk while Pakistanis are comfortable with tearing each other apart on internal and external affairs. I think it is healthy sign. I am sure, Indians do argue each other as vigorously as Pakistanis but for some reason, perhaps not to give the impression of division among Indians dealing with Pakistanis. However, dealing with the official policies of Pakistan is very different than dealing with average Pakistanis. The open minded Pakistanis are as liberal, secular, peaceniks as their Indian counterparts. I must say that your interaction at this thread is much less aggreessive as your image on other threads and I truly appreciate that.

One of the reason that other languages are much ore easily accepted as separate because of the extnt of linguistic differences whereas Panjabis would have probably accepted Panjabi as an accent of Hindi/ Urdu if not for Sikhs whose religious literature and development of script made it independent language. From there on it is human nature - to taste once independence or uniqueness of culture, not to accept a subordinate status of accent. Moreover, persianization of Urdu by classical writers made it distant from colloquial Panjabi. Then there is equal and opposite reaction to everything. More Panjabi writers prefered to write in Persian, more Panjabi backers felt alienated. With no backing from British or Mughals before them and Pakistani government after them, it became almost orphan language. Not much development in literature as compared to other languages and less vocabulary. However, relative economic success both in rural and urban environments and coupled with larger than other diaspora from subcontinent is making some efforts to put it on fast track to catch up up with other much developed southasian languages of south and bengali in particular. It is either going to be irrelevent to India-Pakistan politics or help normalizing relations among some people or even both governments but it can not hurt either of the nations as things stand now. All well-known Panjabi activists even living in India and Pakistan are left leaning and carry soft feelings for people across the border.

Sameer #58
After searching around I find visas were also denied to Pakistanis to attend a leftist forum in Hyderabad, AP. I believe Asma Jahangir was also denied a visa for some other event - though I cannot confirm this.

I believe the International Punjabi writers conference did go ahead as planned - I am not sure whether the absence of Pakistani writers took away any of the Congress`s brownie points.

A language conference is a relatively small thing - don`t underestimate the political pull of farmers, including Punjabi farmers, in India. If I am not mistaken, last year the Indian government went ahead and procured millions of tonnes of substandard wheat to avoid widespread insolvency of farmers and a consequent political crisis - a decision which lead to resignation in protest of the Food Corporation of India chief( a bureacrat most likely).

Some people say that poor availability of food to poor people even with food surpluses is because these surpluses arenot in the open market, but procured by the govt. for redistribution. IMO, the govt. will not be able to re-examine this procurement policy because farmers` lobbies(including Punjabi farmers) are just too powerful for any party in any govt. to attempt it any time soon.


Re imperfectness or absence of democracy:
I seriously doubt there is a fairy godmother out there who will come one day and wave a magic wand over our politicians heads and say `from today you are a perfect democracy so you will behave well henceforth`. Better not wait for that day.

#58 by sameerJB on May 19, 2003 8:19pm PT
``If Panjab can be divided, so is Kashmir along the line of control. Like Panjabis, Kashmiris can also find ways through some aspect of culture to connect/ interact with each other at cultural level. ``

YES...this was the only point I was trying to bring home. That if Punjab could be divided..then why can`t kashmir survive after being bifurcated between two countries.

I was trying to say: Should Punjabis (or Bengalis for that matter) also start a new revolution of bringing the seperated parts together?

If yes..then paksitan should give us their paki punjab..otherwise it should stop fuelling and instigating the socalled..Kashmiri freedom movement

If no...then kashmiris should also learn not to bother so much about their seperated parts..

Dilshad, rioting started in March 47 while movement for Pakistan was on for last two decades (compared to 5 months bewteen Mar and Aug). My point is partition caused rioting not other way around.

There seems to be a raging discussion here over a non-issue. No one suggested that the two Panjabs should become a separate country. And one may disagree with Kuldip Nayar and I.K.Gujral, but it would be cynical to brand them as anti-Indian while the types of sadna, myself or dullabhatti sit on judgements over them while eking our livelihood thousands of miles away from that country. Nayar and Gujral may be smitten by Panjabiyat (why shouldn`t they be?) but they also have first-hand experience of the partition and would be the first to oppose the idea of a united Panjab. What they and many of us yearn for is a time when Panjabis from both sides of the border can revel in their common cultural and linguistic heritage. This is no different from what happens between Bangladesh and Indian Bengal, without ever threatening the Indian union.
When some of us state that Panjabis bear the brunt of all fights between India and Pakistan, we are merely stating the obvious. If Lahore is nuked, can the fallout of an ill-wind on Amritsar be prevented? And it is also obvious to us that Panjabis on both sides will live more secure and stable lives if the threat of war between the two countries is reduced.
Panjabi peaceniks on both sides also realise that their brethren on each side of the border also tend to be quite belligerent (the sikhs on the Indian side are less so now but this is a recent phenomenon) and if the panjabis on the two sides can warm up to each other, they will act as a bridge between the two countries, not burn the bridges of either panjabis to their respective countries.

SameerJB:
The relative agreement among Indians on chowk is a funtion of the topics discussed on chowk; they mainly deal with islamic fundamentalism, Kashmir and India-Pakistan. On these issues, there is little disagreement among Indians, or Hindians to be more precise!

dost-mittar #64

I think its cynical to say that I called IK Gujral and Kuldip Nayar anti-national.

I said they seem to care more for Punjabiyat when it comes to Pakistanis than when it comes in Indians and I explained that too in #49. I have not seen a rebuttal of that post.

These people are public figures, (who happen to be Members of Parliament currently) who take public stances as public representatives and we must accept that what public figures say or do will be discussed.

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Sadhana, various.
I think your stance is rather unreasonable. It presumes that whatever public position that Gujral or Nayar have taken on the issues you outlined are widely publicized at least to the extent of reaching you. I don`t think this presumption can be correct.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_18-5-2003_pg3_2

Op-ed: Let Punjabis show the way to peace

These days the governments of India and Pakistan are making sensible moves towards normalisation of relations. We can only hold our breath and hope that this time the spoilers, who are well-entrenched on both sides and are proud to be known as hawks, will not gain the upper hand and bring to nought the positive statements and friendly gestures of preceding weeks by taking maximalist positions that the other side cannot possibly accept.

Past efforts by the governments of India and Pakistan have followed a set pattern. Hopes have been raised high with the heads of the two governments meeting and proclaiming an end to the era of confrontation and the opening of a new chapter in their relations which would include easing of travel facilities and expansion of trade. An important feature of such declarations has been the acknowledgement that the Kashmir dispute (the Indians prefer to call it an “issue”) needs to be resolved peacefully. Thereafter, nothing substantial happens and after a while things go awry.

Just to recall the latest such events, it was in February 1999 when things looked truly bright on the peace front. Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee had made the historic visit to the Minar-e-Pakistan where he publicly acknowledged that despite opposition to the idea of Pakistan the Hindu nationalist forces were now ready to accept the reality of Pakistan. But the architects of Kargil had other plans and a wasteful border war left hundreds of young men dead and wounded on both sides.

Another opportunity arose at the time of the Agra Summit in July 2001. On that occasion the Indian side assumed an intransigent position only hours before a joint declaration was to be made by Mr Vajpayee and General Pervez Musharraf affirming their commitment to peace and friendly relations.

It is an old, well-established principle that when two antagonists cannot resolve their disputes and conflicts peacefully they are advised to invite a third party to mediate between them and find fair solutions. In this regard, Pakistan has been willing to accept third party mediation but India remains adamant not to submit their claims on Kashmir to any third party. As I have argued in earlier articles relating to Kashmir, the Indian and Pakistani positions on that dispute pertain to security and economic concerns. Unless we create a climate whereby both sides may learn to appreciate that their security and economic prosperity, along with that of the people of Kashmir, is actually enhanced from a rational sharing of its resources no real progress can possibly be made on Kashmir.

Under the circumstance, would it not be worthwhile to introduce new actors into the process of conflict resolution? These have to be found from within India and Pakistan. They should not be government officials and functionaries because that has already been tried unsuccessfully. It would also not suffice to have the annual meets of civil society actors such as the Pakistan-India Peoples Forum for Peace and Democracy in various Indian and Pakistani cities. The Forum has done much good work in the field but it is constrained by both the delegations upholding the official positions of their governments on Kashmir. The net result is that nothing happens that can break the deadlock.

I should like to propose an entirely new way of approaching India-Pakistan relations. Let the people of the two countries meet without any fixed political agenda to deal with. For a start it must be the Punjabis on both sides of the Wagah-Attari Border who need to be engaged in the peace process.

Contrary to the official rhetoric about the 1947 Punjab riots, my own research shows that most of the people of Punjab did not want to abandon their hearth and home and wanted to stay put despite their province being partitioned on the basis of religious majorities. Even when they were leaving their villages and towns they were hoping to return as soon as the communal madness was brought under control. That of course could not happen.

In the 1950s the Pakistan High Commissioner to India Raja Ghazanfar Ali Khan allowed East Punjabis to freely visit West Punjab during an India-Pakistan cricket match at Lahore. The people of Lahore and Punjab offered the visitors such moving hospitality and generosity that the bloody riots of only a few years earlier seemed to be an unreal nightmare. Grown up men of all religions were seen embracing each other and crying and asking each other for forgiveness.

It is my contention that under international law and the higher moral law deriving from the universal conscience, the right to visit one’s place of birth is an inalienable human right and must be granted to all human beings. In my interviews relating to the 1947 riots conducted recently in Pakistan, I was quite surprised how greatly Punjabi Muslims valued the right to go back and visit not only their homes but particularly their ancestral graveyards. Many of them want to go back at least once and offer fateha at the graves of their parents. They could not do that because at that moment the main consideration was to save their lives and quickly cross the border into Pakistan. The Hindus and Sikhs who fled West Punjab are equally emotional and they would like to visit their ancestral homes, schools and colleges.

I don’t believe for a moment that Punjabi Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Christians and others bear a permanent grudge against each other. On the other hand, my research shows that on both sides there is a realisation that India and Pakistan are two separate and independent states and they will and should remain so in the future.

There is no reason to fear that any open and unrestricted contact between the peoples of the two Punjabs will undermine the two-state solution that was agreed upon in 1947. On the contrary what is likely is that they will in their traditional wisdom generate enough good will that resolving the Kashmir dispute to the advantage of all the peoples of this region will appear to be the only sound option. So let’s allow Punjabis to meet and mix freely for three months.

The author is an associate professor of Political Science at Stockholm University. He is the author of two books. His email address is Ishtiaq.Ahmed@statsvet.su.se

Dilshad, veer haan bach ke rahiN asiN jehRa vi banda nazar aawe ohnu maar suttday aan.

Sadna, to your point why Gujral and Naiyar are not interested in issues particularly related to Indian Punjab: They can tell you better but my impression is that inspite of dozens of people of Punjabi origin in national level politics and some influential beurocratic positions due to their personal capabilities, advocating any kind of cause for Punjabis in New Delhi has been a politically incorrect thing to do for any politician or beaurocrat with ambitions beyond Punjab. Even if they felt in their heart they restrained from saying anything in parliament. Only 2 MPs from Punjab since I am aware of had spoken for Punjabi issues Balwant Singh Ramoowalia and Jagmeet Brar. Jagmeet inspite of in head on collision with Akali magnet Badal for 2 generations have not gotten any power with in his party, congress for the very same reason - his outspoken views on Punjab are not very welcome by his party. I think he is the best parliamentarian reprsentative Punjab have had in long time.

This twisting of tongues by Punjabis when comes to Punjabi issues is even evident here on Chowk. Many of them might have pro-punjabi feelings but they don`t let them get in their way.
I have met so many Pakistani Punjabis who privately admit that they are saddened by the fate being met to Punjabi language but they won`t dare to say so in a public Pakistani forum. It is akin to suicide for them.

sadna:
People did not offer a rebuttal because, like me, they have not been following the statements of these people closely on these and other issues.

soysauce #68
`` It presumes that whatever public position that Gujral or Nayar have taken on the issues you outlined are widely publicized at least to the extent of reaching you.I don`t think this presumption can be correct. ``

You could be right and I will be happy to be proved wrong, but Kuldip Nayar is a regular columnist in a national newspaper, IK Gujral is a former prime minister who is still quoted on other issues- (and perhaps his son was trying to enter Punjab politics too). There has been sufficient opportunity for them to get the word out on any issue.

It could just be that these subjects are not in their particular sphere of interest/expertise, I just wish they were.

And it could be part of a general apathy. The last time I read of Sikh/Punjabi/Gujarati immigrants being confined in Guatemala (which apparently earns money from INS doing so) and awaiting deportation, was in a foreign newspaper, not an Indian newspaper. Indian newspapers are more interested in Je Lo`s wardrobe or Saddam Hussein perhaps.

sadna, dullabhatti, dost-mittar, ajeet and others:
I don`t know about you but I really enjoy the discussion here. I hope to see it continue. Imust also thank Ajeet for providing an opportunity to discuss, misconceptions, prejudices, fears and yo my utmost disgust, characters like Dilshad opening mouth with some stereotypical comments about 120-130 million people in two lines, ignoring that 2 out of 5 Noble laureates of subcontinent are Panjabis and countless Panjabi contributions to agriculture, music, movies, academic excellence, literature, government, sacrifices and armed forces.

I would like to point out two