Pakistan and India - Lets Compromise

#95 SADNA said

``Suppose, hypothetically, that Kashmir or the issue of Kashmir didnot ever exist, and India and Pakistan were at loggerheads exactly like they are now, for some OTHER unspecified reason and had now decided to bury the hatchet.

I am curious, in such a hypothetical situation, what is it that Pakistanis think, that as a country they would benefit the most from, from cordial association with India? ``

My response--

Very good question and it would be interesting to know what others think about this.

Perhaps the most important, in my opinion would be cultural, educational and scientific exchanges. I don`t think this is asking for too much as both sides will benefit greatly from such interactions immediately.

I will list three areas of immediate concern:

1.We need to look at alternative appropriate technologies that could reduce reliance of both countries on expensive and often inappropriate foreign inputs.

Take the case of water shortage, which now affects both countries seriously. Cooperation here is essential or else we could again go to war on this -- other countries in the Middle East are on the verge.

There is urgent need for joint action on food security. The number of people going without food in both countries is a disgrace. See for example Amartya Sen`s 2001 article in ``The Little Magazine`` in its special issue on ``Hunger``. It is an outstanding quarterly from Delhi, thankfully available in parts at

www.littlemag.com. Try it!

At Rs 75 an issue it should be available on bookstand in Pakistan if we adoped peace, and many people in Pakistan would be able to afford it.

I could go on...

Isa Daudpota
00:19 am PK time, 11 May 2003

you deserve to be rated---low i suppose

RE : #80 by daudpota on May 10, 2003 0:41am PT
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Would a confederation of South Asian States be desirable?
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Over the past few years I have noticed a change in India, especially after Kargil. The number Indian looking to build bridges to Pakistan has declined. This is true across India not just the northern India. A large chunk of the Indian population would like nothing better than building our own great wall on the border. I think you are socially and ideologically too different a nation for us to form a confederation with you. Its just great if we can avoid war or push it as far into the future as possible.

Regards,

Faruk

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Daudpota #80
Actually, as I think Mr LK hated Advani has pointed, a federation is different from a confederation - though don`t ask me details- after all a confederation can be what we make of it.

For example, confederation could be a union of sovereign states which retain their essential sovereignty wrt to their internal affairs, maintain their separate constitutions, government structures, armies, revenue structures but are associated with other sovereign states on the basis of a charter drawn up based on common interests. Something like the EU but less chaotic - (I happen to think the EU will become chaotic after some years- but then S.Asia doesnot have as many sovereign states as Europe).

Here is another hypothetical question about benefits of better relations :

Suppose, hypothetically, that Kashmir or the issue of Kashmir didnot ever exist, and India and Pakistan were at loggerheads exactly like they are now, for some OTHER unspecified reason and had now decided to bury the hatchet.

I am curious, in such a hypothetical situation, what is it that Pakistanis think, that as a country they would benefit the most from, from cordial association with India?

Increased trade and investment? Allies to protect national interests in globalizing economy? Tourism? Cooperation in defence? Industrial and technological knowhow exchange ?Opportunities for Islamic evangelism? Sociological change due to end of historic enmity? What?

Let us not lose any opportunity to take advantage of the current

peace momentum between India and Pakistan. And another thing

that is important to remember is not to keep your hopes too high.

We do not want to snuff out the light of reason in South Asia

as soon as it has been lit.

Ras

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Reply His Excellency

``killing of...Muslims in Godhra...``

Ya Muslim, I blush to point out to you that...

``Shakl bhi dekh saktey to kya hi achcha hotaa... chalo shakl naa sahi....apke itney achche `intellectual minds` ki jhalak hi sahi ``

m_souza, kya ho raha hai?!!! you wrote a post that enjoyed without qualification. are you well? doctor ko bulaun? or is it me? (mere sar men darad tho nahin...)

Reply ali87 #85

``Remember that terrorists need to have either cross border or Islamic or international preceeding their name to be to be called terrorists.``

uff, stop whining and pretending that the only reason the goons who killed those pandits in Nadimarg, and laid the bomb in Akshardham, etc. etc. etc. are called terrorists by reasonable people is that they were born Muslim.

(the way you go on and on and on and ooooooon: ``oh we are so misunderstood, oh we are so unfairly criticised, it`s not that we actually didn`t do these things, or that these things are indeed wrong, it`s just that if we were blond and blue eyed and whiiiiiiiiite we wouldn`t be called terrorists, oh don`t you feel guilty for calling us that now that we have pointed out your raaaaaaaaaacism?`` urgh! aadmi ho ya pajama? or at the heart of it, muslim ya jahil?)

You sound disturbingly like those responsible for the organised anti-Muslim violence in Gujarat who claim that the ONLY reason they are being criticised by India`s English Language Media is that they are Hindus. Just like them you are rather selective when citing `examples of similar behaviour (not that we condone it of course)` and like them you seem completely unaware of any moral dimension in assessing `your own` actions.

ps to ali

if it is any comfort to you, i think that the bjp led govt in india is doing exactly the same thing to india`s institutions of government (by using the insane elements of the sangh parivar as their stalking horse) as gop has been doing to its own long term authority (by using the paramilitary forces loose in pakistan in their proxy wars in kashmir and - ?? - afghanistan). foolish, greedy, short-sighted mongrels, all of them. what i do not understand is why you are so eager to join their company.

Reply Daudpota #80

``Would a confederation of South Asian States be desirable? Can this region move towards the model that Europe has adopted? Kashmir and other part of South Asia could then become parts of such a picture. This idea has occasionally been floated, but how would it come about -- that`s if people find it attractive. Do the denizens of Chowk have a view on it?``

IMHO unlikely. Indian public might wear it, after a couple of decades of peace, but (at least from what I see here) the Pakistani public would not...unless a very very slick operator was able to persuade them that the real differences between being a member of a confederation (South Asian) and a federation (India) are substantial, and to their benefit, and put in the shade the ongoing priviledge of paying separate taxes for the upkeep of their own PM, President, Diplomatic Service and, of course, Army.

(Are you that man, sir? Can you rise to the occasion? I have great hopes, and we all knew you first here on chowk - something we can all look forward to reminiscing about, yesji?)

Vaisai Indian public is likely to be quite shaky on the deal as well. Right now aap baithe hain, na, between the punyabhumi and the taliban, whatever they will be calling themselves by that time. having spent a lot of pr time on the jihadi nature of pakistani society and the less frequented barasatis and godowns of the house of peace, GoI is going to have a rough time convincing said public ke abh sabh kuch theek ho gaya hai, hum south asian union bana ke bahaaaaaut bahauuut sukh, labh, sammathi, falanafalana saath payenge...only hope would lie in a spate of bollywood amar akbar anthony type movies, only this time tax free status is given when SAU is lauded (SAU, aap ne hamen bacha liya. chorus: SAU ki jai! SAU ki jai!) and any translation of the German forbidden by law. meaning, you can`t make a silk purse...

Arjun_m @ # 39:
You wrote:
``pray tell...why are pakis thought of as terrorists the world over and not hate mongering hindus like me? Why is Pakiland on the NSEER list and not India? Why did all the Sept 11 terrorists get some level of indoctrination in Pakistans madrassahs?``

My response:
Despite Pakistanis as being thought of as terrorists the world over, not a single Pakistani or Afghan has actually been caught and indicted in the world terrorism. All of them have middle-eastern connections. Not a single one of the 9/11 terrorists had any Pakistani or Afghan Madressa connection.

If Pakistan were an acknowledged terrorist country and India a totally pious and principled one, then the world would have given a total shut up call to Pakistan on Kashmir, would have cut Pakistan`s aid not increased it, would have isolated it not embraced it so as to e.g make it a non-permanent member of the UN Security Council.

Most of the news that comes in the western media is by anti-Muslim sources, who fade away as soon as an evidence is demanded. Rest assured, we will find a potion for this maligning activity too.

You wrote:
``Why are India`s IITs in the news for their education and Pakistan`s madrassahs for their ties to terrorism? ``

My response:
Pakistan madressas are in as much news about fundamentalism as are Indian extremist political parties and their followers. You have to watch BBC and CNN regularly. Good for us for we have made U-turn even here thus getting rid of our weaknesses. OTOH, you have increasing extremism in India. Compared to India, Islamic parties in Pakistan may be objecting to issues like LFO, but they are not defending Talibans or Al Qaeda.

Indian IIT are in the news, but remember that Pakistan is now getting back on the road that leads to development. An ideal thing for India was to keep Pakistan engaged with Talibans and Kashmiri struggle. That would have depleted our resources. But there is an Urdu idiom. `Nadaan dowst say daana dushman bahtar hota hay`` (tr: a wise enemy is better than an unwise friend). Talibans were our unwise friends. We got rid of that friendship. However, we are thankful that we did not have a wise enemy in India, who burnt its own resources in its obsession with coercive diplomacy against Pakistan.

``are you saying all this is because of ``hate mongering hindus`` like me?``

No. I am just trying to bring some sense into your posts that go beyond the fine line that divides sanity from insanity.

#80 by daudpota
``Would a confederation of South Asian States be desirable? Can this region move towards the model that Europe has adopted?``

You forget that such a model came into existence in 1947. India is not a nation state as the western world defines it. It has many cultures and subcultures woven into its fabric. The number of states, each with its own distict language, culture etc make India a mini-Europe. Its founding fathers erred only when it came to partition of the country. They could not convince some muslims that they too can have a stake in all this.

But i am only repeating what everyone knows. To answer your question, it is indeed possible and even desirable to move towards a south asian confederation but this has to follow solution to a Kashmir problem and complete victory over terrorism.
If both countries can agree to make LOC a defacto border and give complete autonomy to their respective Kashmiri states, and allow free mobility among Kashmiris across this border that seperates them, in 10-20 years the 2 parts will be well integrated. The animosity that Kashmiris have towards others will disappear. By this time, India and Pak should jointly fight terrorism. Pak Army should gracefully handover charge to civilian authorities and go to the barracks where they belong. When all this happen, public opinion in India may favor a Europe type cofederation.
Pak can start on a good note by giving India a MFN status in trade, which India has been demanding for sometime now.
We are far, far away from a Europe style confederation today. Europe had to go thr` 2 bloody world wars, several civil wars and a Nazi holocaust to realise the futility of war. People of our subcontinent have not reached that stage of political maturity yet.
Sridhar

Here is a websight India Pakistan fighters on chowk may go to: googlefight.com. Put in two keywords and it will come back and tell you which keyword is more popular on the web.
I tested India and Pakistan as keywords. India had 17.9 million web pages, Pakistan had 8.9 million web pages. As totally unbiased Pakistani referee, I declare Pakistan to have won on a per capita basis.
Heh! Heh! Take that jay and suck it!