Women in Religious Scriptures

sure in what way it is more unreasonalble or illogical than a soldier killing himself for the honor of his country or what ever? Is it less logical than a 500000 thousand US men getting killed in a far away country which neither attacked it nor had any benifit to US or its citizens.
It is certainly more logical than Nepali Gurkhas fighting somebodyelses war and vying for honors in somebodyelses land that to after dying.

any way what happens after death is yet to be seen by people or reported back if there are 72 virgins or none what matters is what happens in life and what you do with it. Jumping in a pyre or killling a innocent child to ward of evil is far worse compared to somethings humuans have no knowledge about. If people die defending thier people and you consider that legitmate and if people are lead to belive that they get an addtional befifit of 72 it does not add or substract from the sacrifice.

Honorable_Syd#194
You are absolutely right about the low status of women accorded in the manusmriti.
But the hindus (most of them, anyway!) are willing to reject the Manusmriti and get over with it. Are the Muslims willing to do the same with their book providing them with their ``constitution``?

#194 by Honorable_Syed on May 30, 2003 0:09am PT
So you keep calling yourself an outsider.. one not belonging to India

Chalo..maan liya ....we do agree with you that you all are foreigners still living in the land of India which rightfully doesn`t belong to you ...which you invaded by force.

No wonder you guys are still not at peace and will never be..as you donot belong anywhere now...naa ghar(persia, arab, turkey etc),..naa ghat ke...baagi kahin ke..apna waatan bhi chor aaye aur jahan par ho ..wo bhi k(q?)abool nahi..

nafrat karte huey aaye they tum log...aur ab tak nafrat se bharey ho...
muddaton se hindustan me reh kar bhi ab tak hindustanion se nafrat hi nafrat...hindu dharam se nafrat...nafrat hi nafrat..

kya nafrat karna sirf tumhara hi haq hai!!! tumne hum logon ko itni nafrat di...to ab hum bhi nafrat hi dene par mazboor ho rahey hain.. hain...
pehley tum jab hamarey religion ka mazak banatey rahe paanch sau saal..mandir tortey rahey..to hum kuch na kar paye

ab humney apna seedha saa religion badal diya hai...ab jab tum train ko aag laga kar hindus ko jala dete ho...to ab hum bhi chup nahi rehtey....hamarey dil me barson se bhari nafrat saamney aa jati hai jab tum humarey 60 logon ko jalatey ho..to hum hazaar ko....

lo bhugto ab...

#194 by Honorable_Syed on May 30, 2003 0:09am PT
So you keep calling yourself an outsider.. one not belonging to India

Chalo..maan liya ....we do agree with you that you all are foreigners still living in the land of India which rightfully doesn`t belong to you ...which you invaded by force.

No wonder you guys are still not at peace and will never be..as you donot belong anywhere now...naa ghar(persia, arab, turkey etc),..naa ghat ke...baagi kahin ke..apna waatan bhi chor aaye aur jahan par ho ..wo bhi k(q?)abool nahi..

nafrat karte huey aaye they tum log...aur ab tak nafrat se bharey ho...
muddaton se hindustan me reh kar bhi ab tak hindustanion se nafrat hi nafrat...hindu dharam se nafrat...nafrat hi nafrat..

kya nafrat karna sirf tumhara hi haq hai!!! tumne hum logon ko itni nafrat di...to ab hum bhi nafrat hi dene par mazboor ho rahey hain.. hain...
pehley tum jab hamarey religion ka mazak banatey rahe paanch sau saal..mandir tortey rahey..to hum kuch na kar paye

ab humney apna seedha saa religion badal diya hai...ab jab tum train ko aag laga kar hindus ko jala dete ho...to ab hum bhi chup nahi rehtey....hamarey dil me barson se bhari nafrat saamney aa jati hai jab tum humarey 60 logon ko jalatey ho..to hum hazaar ko....

lo bhugto ab...

(Dis)honorable_Syed

The interesting facts you have given about hindu women..wow...how chaste and pure and good indeed are hindu women !!
But don`t you muslims guys always abuse hindu women on account of thier chastity..So all your insults abt hindu women were wrong..and biased..

just have look at the progress hindu women have made and are still making...is an ample proof of thier servitude to their Lord(master haa)

and also look at the muslim women the world over..if not just india or pakistan..are they more progressive and in better condition than hindu women??

ali87 #various
I can also pull out stuff from the Quran and Hadiths which I donot think you follow and hence shouldnot have been there in the first place and question your religious beliefs on `reason and logic` But why the heck should I? Why is it your business what a Hindu believes and why is it my business what a Muslim believes?(as long as we donot harm each other).

Regarding unbridled freedom - this is an advantage not a disadvantage. This is my personal opinion - IMO the popular Muslim fixation in most countries with ABSOLUTE political and economic sovereignty and strict implementation of Sharia as a solution to all issues facing Muslims is an inadequate response to modern circumstances.

IMO, these are top-down measures which are not yielding adequate results in Muslim majority countries because actually Muslims need to be empowered bottom-up with better standards of living and unhindered access to modern ideas and education.

You talked of `unbridled freedom`. My suggestion is, it can be an advantage for Indian Muslims if the Indian state is less of a religious watchdog than in Islamic countries.

IMO instead of sharing this fixation for topdown measures with the world`s other Muslims and going down the `Islam ki fateh` and `cut off hands for stealing` route, Indian Muslims might do well to utilize any unbridled freedom that comes their way and bring about the social and attitudinal changes they wish to in their communities, to improve living and education standards and rights of their women without worrying as much about landing in jail for offending state-sponsored ulema, watching over their shoulders.

re:#190 by ali87
In the hindu context, rituals are to be observed only if one feels like it. Some people feel good if these rituals are observed and if there is a priest chanting holy mantras. There is no compulsion. Your friend who spent Rs 25000 for his father`s shraddha (ritual done after one`sdeath) was stupid. Many who cannot afford a priest go to Benaras or some such place and do a once in a lifetime shraddha and be done with it. There are ways of circumventing the rituals and these ways are well documented in the scriptures. Then, there are people who do not believe in this kind of thing and stay away from these rituals. Would the priest have sued your friend if he did not perform the rituals. I bet your friend felt the inner compulsion to perform the last rites for his father. He should not have done it if he could not afford it.
Sridhar

re:#188 by ali87
I would like to see what the response of hindus would be if, for eg., Shankaracharya of Kanchi were to say that moksha (liberation from the cycle of death and rebirth) is assured for those who voluntarily go out and kill muslims.
First of all, no Shankaracharya will say that. Secondly, even if someone did, the followers (ie the hindus) have enough sense to introspect and see if this is acceptable.
Can any religious leader say that killing others is O.K if the victim is a non-muslim and the act is a part of the so called ``jehad``? There is something basically wrong with the thinking process of the mullahs. The so called ``martyrs`` are fools who follow the dictates of these mullahs like the ``sacrificial sheep``.
Sridhar

#187 by sadna on May 29, 2003 10:08pm PT

Obviously when we are doing a comparison we will discuss the points of contention. What is accepted by all hardly merits a discussion, it is simply accepted.

the conteious practices whether obscure or not now are part of the religon. similarly people now try to gloss over the Utouchability issue as something irrelavent or as something of no consequence this hardly seems to be the case.

my point is precisily this pick and choose freedom is what gets people to choose the wrong things even souza is pointing to the same argument. Perhaps this pick and choose freedom lead to sati or untouchability or whatever. Why should it be a part of religion anyway?
similarly there are other practices which I will not mention now that you may find embrassing a few decades from now and and abaandon them later on. what does it mean? that you were following some thing that you consider wrong, so why follow it now?

Where does god come into this? If he does not give the right path for one to lead life the people have to edit or add stuff then you can hardly call that religous stuff. Surely there must be some definititon of religon. Having options to chose from is fine and may be considered a plus but having practices which you consider wrong and sick to chose from defies logic.

However my wish is not to impose my belif on you. YOu can choose to follow what ever you think right. If you want to dicuss merits or dismerits vis a vi Islam then I must have the right to present facts as they are.

ali78#188
``either you live in a dream world or the Newspapers are lying. But you your self say that there are religious books which sanction sati and that sati was pravelant earlier and thus you continue to worship satis of earlier years. ``

Which religious books? Which newspapers?

``So whats your girpe? My point is that such practices were part of hinduism and still are in many sections and as such you cannot claim that they are not and present some kind of glossed over and sanitised form of Hinduism for comparison with Islam. ``

``as regards to taliban or who ever does what ever I do not think that you will find any justification of those things in Islam. That some muslims do that cant be held against Islam. ``

Where is sati is practised in modern day India? You say it is, please prove it. And also why you say it is an element of Hinduism. On the other hand you say that Islam as a religion has nothing to do with present-day jihad - and based on these lies, you want to do a comparison of Hinduism with Islam.

Why? Why is your business what Hindus do or what they worship?

``as regards the attacks and promise of heaven and its attendant descriptoons I think that you are hardly in a positon to complaint or critize. ``

Just now you said jihad and suicide for 72 virgins is not part of the Islam religion, so why are you defending it? Is it linked to Islam or not?

And why cannot I complain when the promise of heaven and 72 virgins is declared as a reward for killing Indians? Just how do you propose to stop me from complaining?

``On the other hand every nation honors its Martyrs.``

Which nation? Pakistan routinely denies its martyrs - there is NO official acknowledgement of the thousands of men headed for 72 virgins reward who fought and died in Afghanistan in 20 years of civil war. Pakistan still denies that Pakistanis die in J&K. Pakistan even refused the bodies of the Northern Light Infantry after they were killed in Kargil, its UNIFORMED soldiers. Jihadis are routinely abused by some as fanatics when convenient. What honor are you talking of?

``do you see any prosequtions after nearly 2 decades of the sikh roits? whydoes your concience leave you in this case?``

Where did I say this is justified? You are the one justifying mass killings here, not me.


``Since every one knows how Sati had to be removed by a very concerted social movemnt and even the untouchabilty reqired decades of effort against stiff resistance and still continues in many pockets of India and among the educated in a sophistictated way.``

Yes but sati WAS abolished 200 years ago and a Dalit woman is the CM of UP but as of 2003, we have not yet succeeded in giving divorced Indian Muslim women the right to adequate maintenance from their husbands. I wonder what sort of concerted effort in the Muslim community THAT will take.

``Hindusm by your own admisson used to and by my observation still sanctions many practices, Your only defence is that these are not compulsury does not cut the ice``

For me it DOES very much cut the ice - this is a strength not a weakness - and this is the fundamental difference between your beliefs and mine. And just why must I have the same value system as you?

`` So when you want to compare Hinduism with Islam please present the facts as they are not as you wish or belive they should be. ``

I am not interested in comparing Islam and Hinduism, I donot have to explain myself or my religion to any Muslim but I will not stand for the lies you keep telling about Hindus.

#187 by sadna on May 29, 2003 10:08pm PT

here is where I remind my self of the prophets advice. I hope Im not going out of the line when I point out that I have seen many stories even on doordarshan for eg Om Namah Shiva which I could refer to which I have earlier read in books which let us say....show things gods shouldnt be doing.

Ill leave it at that. your claim about obscure practices is not so right there are prevalant practices even now which I would not care to disucss suffice to say they are common. Sure there are many things that are good in Hinduism but we are not disucssing that right now. Im not writing a white paper on hinduism we are discussing some of the practices which are considered wrong even by hindus which is why they had to be banned or stopped which are part of hindureligon and not as you say obsucure or as other say not a part of the religon at all. We are not discussing the merits or dismerits of the practices we agree both agree that they are not good practices. Our point of contention is that you say they are obscure or were practiced earlier my point is that they are not that obsucre and at least some of them were quite prevelant and by your own admission are sanctinoned by the religious books. My point is that they shouldn not have been part of religion in the first place if they are wrong. After all one supposses the purpose of religon is to guide to the right path. If all good as well as bad is present then why take up religon when man can manage very well by himself to pick good or bad from his life whithout going to religon.

Some interesting facts about hinduism and women:
``Now the duties of a woman (are as follows): To live in harmony with her husband; To show reverence (by embracing their feet and such-like attentions) to her mother-in-law, father-in-law, to Gurus (such as elders), to divinities, and to guests; To keep household articles (such as the winnowing basket and the rest) in good array; To maintain saving habits; To be careful with her (pestle and mortar and other) domestic utensils; Not to practice incantations with roots (or other kinds of witchcraft); To observe auspicious customs; Not to decorate herself with ornaments (or to partake of amusements) while her husband is absent from home; Not to resort to the houses of strangers (during the absence of her husband); Not to stand near the doorway or by the windows (of her house); Not to act by herself in any matter; To remain subject, in her infancy, to her father; in her youth, to her husband; and in her old age, to her sons. After the death of her husband, to preserve her chastity, or to ascend the pile (funeral pyre) after him. No sacrifice, no vow, and no fasting is allowed to women apart from their husbands; to pay obedience to her lord is the only means for a woman to obtain bliss in heaven. A woman who keeps a fast or performs a vow (apart from her master) in the lifetime of her lord, deprives her husband of his life, and will go to hell. A good wife, who perseveres in a chaste life after the death of her lord, will go to heaven like (perpetual) students, even though she has no son.`` -- Visnusmrti 25:1-17.
As regards to sridher`s reply, i guess he is a little slow. My contention is not that there hasn`t been genetic mixing in India, but traditionally when someones genealogy is studied you consider the progenitors, therefore people refer to ``forefathers``. As such there is no race that hasn`t had genetic mixing. Actually an interesting fact was the demographic study i referred to in my earlier post, used British records to come up with numbers, as the Britishers used to distinguish between indigenous Muslims and foreign Muslims.

PS:
ali78 #188
``If 72 virgins are promised then what is wrong have you seen what happens after death? ``

No doubt this is the reason and logic which you were talking of.

#185 by m_souza on May 29, 2003 10:08pm PT

..and that too without any inhibitions, restrictions, strict rules..

This has to be a joke..

no strict rules.. ask the shudras what restrictiosn they faced. How many Hindus I have met who talk about strict rules. Why I met my friends this weekend who has his parents visiting him was telling me how they take have to take bath on festival days and cook food and not go out of the kitchen till it is cooked. If a trip is made out of the kitchen one has to take bath before entering the kitchen again. He kindly asked me not to mind if he gives me water and tea in a seperate and distinct cup as his mother and father are very particular.

or have did I dream about the strict rules in the neighbours families in India where they would not attend any wedding or function or celeberation for a year after the death of their father. Or of the strict rules which were given to my frineds mother who upon beign widowed was told to visit her sister and a couple of relatives before the 13th day ceremonies otherwise she would not be able to visit them for the next whole one year. In her greif she had to make these visits to other cities where they lived.

Or did I dream up the conversation with my friend who told me that he wants to do all the proper rituals on his fathers death as his fathers elder brother is very particular about this. He had to spend 25 thousand rupees for the preists to come and do the necessary rituals!! this over and above the other expenses of food ect of the 9th day, 10 th day, 11th day, 13 day ceremonies which all put together set him back by nearly a lakh of rupees which he could Ill afford.later on he had to spend 500 rupees a month every month for monthly cremonies for a year! Or did I dream up the many envious comments by my hindu friends as to how easy we have it with no rituals!! did I dream up the rituals practiced earlier when a woman is widowed is not allowed to wear a blouse and has to wear only white and only drape her sari over her breasts. This can still be seen in conservative village women In Tamil Nadu.

may be I dreamt of all that..

#173 by tahmed32 on May 29, 2003 5:03pm PT

I think your experinece is peciularly pakistani. I too find that pakistanis are the most disenchanted lot. However you cannot blame the mullahs if your yourself have given up. Nobody asked you to give your rights up and bring the Mullahs in between yourself and Islam.

I agree that there is lot of Intrest in Islam in the west which is just courisity. However I find in India or Malayisa, or US and even in some Arab countries my friends tell me that many muslims who wouldnt care much about religion are flocking to the mosques in greater numbers.

As regards conversions I suppose it depends on whom you interact with. 5 of my college mates have married Non muslims after conversion. I have at least 6 relatives who have married non muslims. Here in the 5 masjids that I have attended for some length of time there are always 3-4 white people who have accpeted Islam. Funny thing is that the so called cultural muslims too come to the mosque with greater frequency and often try to change the traditional stance to suit their needs only to fall back to known and proven polices after accepting their logic and utility.

as for your comment that the west has far more to teach us you may be right to some extent however what does the west teach that Islam does not teach. What exactly is the dogma of the west ? sure there are plenty of honest and decent people here. But what can people who take vows of eternal marriage and then goabout to break them regulary teach us. What can you learn from people where ``as one commentator in Washington post said that ``we have reached a stage where we call pimping for mother a reality show`` What can we learn from the west which threatens and bullies countires into submission including european allies? What can we learn from a america now by self admission which played a major role in the Iranian coup and subsequent destablisation of the whole region? What can we learn from people where prosperity has not lead to peace but same levels of voilence among people. Crime rate in US is no less than in India? Well we could learn to regulate ourselves better if that is what you mean in terms of courts and rule of law. We could learn some tolerance from them but what are we to infer their intolerance as in ``we will allow no country even an ally to become as big us militiarly``
If we need to learn then let us learn form better sources and from better people instead of half hearted practiconeres of morality. What can we learn from people who are eager to kick out thier children as soon as possible and from people who consider their parents as a burden?

Sure we could learn a few things form them. However let me point out that the same people who consider saying Salam Alaikum as silly cant stop going gaga about how polite the westerners are as they wish you good morning as you go about your morning walk. If we need to learn anything lets us learn selfrespect and start from there.

#177 by sadna on May 29, 2003 6:59pm PT

either you live in a dream world or the Newspapers are lying. But you your self say that there are religious books which sanction sati and that sati was pravelant earlier and thus you continue to worship satis of earlier years.

So whats your girpe? My point is that such practices were part of hinduism and still are in many sections and as such you cannot claim that they are not and present some kind of glossed over and sanitised form of Hinduism for comparison with Islam.

In comparing these practices with Islam please point out what part of the Quran is not relevant today.

as regards to taliban or who ever does what ever I do not think that you will find any justification of those things in Islam. That some muslims do that cant be held against Islam. as regards the attacks and promise of heaven and its attendant descriptoons I think that you are hardly in a positon to complaint or critize. If 72 virgins are promised then what is wrong have you seen what happens after death?
On the other hand every nation honors its Martyrs. By your stand no soilder should give up his life for his country and protection of his kinsmen after all what benfiit can one get after dying? Sucicide or voluntary squads are used by all militaries including Indian where volunters are called for in operations where there is sure chance of death. This was carried out by the Japanese Kimase pilots in ww2 and by the allied soldiers too and even by Indian soldiers who were defending the might britain in a fight that they were not involved. How come your critisism is reserved only if muslims practice this.

However killing of civilians is another issues by delibrate targetting and is not sanctioned in Islam. What do you think of the Indian socitey (aka hindu majority)which killed 3000 sikhs in cold blood in 1984 and 2000 mulsims in gujrat which combined together exceedes the toll of those killed in 9/11 and the palestinian fight in the last one decade? do you see any prosequtions after nearly 2 decades of the sikh roits? whydoes your concience leave you in this case? do you want to add the Toll of LTTE to this figure and its recruitment of small kids and Indias suppourt to it for a long time?

What do you think of your co relgionists who got funds from india and then asasinated rajiv gandhi? or do you forget the litracy level in India or nepal?

as regards...I think you should remember what the Prophet Mohammed said. If I am not mistaken he said if you abuse others beliefs they will abuse yours........

I try to keep that in mind always howver I do stray from that advice some times. However is it abuse to point out facts? When some one makes comparison with Islam on basis of glossed over facts then I think I am justified in at least pointing out the facts as they are.

the point Im making is that Islam doesnot sanction some of the things muslims commit where as Hindusm by your own admisson used to and by my observation still sanctions many practices, Your only defence is that these are not compulsury does not cut the ice. Since every one knows how Sati had to be removed by a very concerted social movemnt and even the untouchabilty reqired decades of effort against stiff resistance and still continues in many pockets of India and among the educated in a sophistictated way. So when you want to compare Hinduism with Islam please present the facts as they are not as you wish or belive they should be.