Women in Religious Scriptures

an examination of how things started and how they end.. which need not happen

#52 by Layman on May 21, 2003 6:40am PT


In Islam / Christianity etc, God is a He (God made Man in HIS image, Praise Be Upon HIM), whereas we have Lakshmi, Saraswati, Parvati... The most powerful mantra is the Gayatri mantra... Manu Smriti is a smriti, written by a man Manu in the material world. ........ It is thus a reflection of society,not Hindu religion, in my opinion.
...

My frist post was in response to two things one that Allah is HE and other that the treatment of women is ``reflection of society,not Hindu religion,``

This was my frist post::




#70 by ali87 on May 23, 2003 9:32am PT
#52 by Layman on May 21, 2003 6:40am PT

that you call yourself layman is apt. better say you are not aware.

Allah is has no gender. No description, Only some of his attributes are discribed. Like Rahim, Rahman , Jabbar etc.

As regards Manusmiriti Hindu religon is what is practiced for thousands of years to say now that Manu codes are not part of your religon is to say that for thosuands of years hindus (with many famous saints etc) have got every thing wrong. If such is the case what garuntee is there that your presents views reflect genuine hinduism.

Also if you read your religous Puranas and the various stories in it they clearly reflect the life being lead according to manus codes and even gods , saints aknowledging those codes including the now popular god ``Rama`` in the famous episode of eklavaya.

you will be left with the question then what exactly is real hindu religon? Ill leave that question to be answered by you and not venture into that teritory.


....


Note the last line....


The next post was



#148 by ali87 on May 28, 2003 10:16pm PT
#131 by tahmed32 on May 27, 2003 9:19am PT

Despite Gujarat and numerous other incidents Indians(I assume that you mean hindus here) are not as rabid as the bunch you see here on chowk. These guys take cue from the chirstian zealots in US. I fact some of these guys when they intially start critizing Islam they usually use the same references and points that US chirstian zealots use and only later on with more interaction etc they become more sophisticated in their barbs and insults. However one thing remains common is they all refuse to conduct an exhaustive comparitve analyiss of both the religions when challenged usually taking recourse to anger etc. to avoid indepth comparison


obviously some of you took that that as a challenge.. Only there wasnt any.. just a my view point about some on this board(you decide if it is true.) to tahamed32



... I saw M_souza posting this...



#128 by m_souza on May 27, 2003 6:52am PT
No need to panic over rights and wrongs of your religion now. You have the saviors approaching you for you salvation. Read this.
And then ...no harm in this...i suppose..
pehle hindu se muslim baney they naa...ab muslim se christian ban jao...
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quoting some of the old evagilical tirades..suitable for westerners(obviously souza has not come across this nor read the postions of the various orientialists in early 17th centrury thrugh early 18th centrury)

So I responded with::




#149 by ali87 on May 28, 2003 10:16pm PT
#128 by m_souza on May 27, 2003 6:52am PT

dont be so happy about this. This information is old hat. NOt many arabs are going to be too shocked about ``demon-possessed pedophile`` as except for ignorant americans and some westerners most socites in the world used to accept low marriage age as low as 12-15 just a few decades back Infact many arabs may have mothers or older female relatives who were married very young just as many hindus have know this just generation back in fact even present generation hindus in villages find nothing ethically wrong in marrying off young girls.

......

#154 by rsridhar on May 29, 2003 8:36am PT
re: #148 by ali87

The beauty of ``Sanatana Dharma`` (or Hinduism) is that individuals in this great religion still have a free choice. They are not bound by any rules or dogmas. No preacher can tell me what to do. I can go and seek God on my own term if i want to. I have scriptures and preachings of thousands of sages and seers to help me in that process.

....
outlining the free choice as per your understandign..

My response was:

#159 by ali87 on May 29, 2003 11:28am PT
#rsridhar
Sure there are rabid mullahs every where just as there are rabid brammins, pandits, sadhus etc.

....
On the tactics adopted by hindus on chowk I was not refering to the hindutvavadis in India. I clearly mentioned that the hindus on chowk adopt the postion of chirstain zealots of US meaning that they have the hate but no first hand information about muslims and choose to follow the stance and use the arguments of US christan zealots many times such arguments or stands would simply not be taken in india because the misinformation about Islam is less prevailant there and also some of the paractices critized by the Christian zealots are quite common in India in both Hindus as well as Muslims so it is funny to see inept hindus using those as basis of criticizim of Islam and muslims while the hindus themselves follow many of these practices

....
YOu had given example of christians adopting hindu practices probably hinting that muslims should do the same or trying to say that the christians are more reasonable than hindus because they adopt hindu practices..
I continued..

..on the matter of chirstians adopting hindu pratices you dont need to be too hopeful. They even do the same in Muslim countries have muslim names, pretend respect for the Quran and even going to the extent of observing Ramzan etc


I went on to jusxtapose how many odinary hindus I interact with find some aspects of Islam pretty nice and also highlighted the various aspects of Hindu culuture that I belived you tried to gloss over in you ``freedom to do what one wants`` argument Including the caste system etc.
This had two purposes , one to show how the particpants (ieMost)hindus are different from the normal hindus one meets in life as well the hindutvavadis(in using the christian borrowed terms references to attack Islam).

You keep harping on the rigidity of muslims as well as Islam so I expalained how some of that is not true.


and ended with...

If you are satisfied with the santatam dharma it is your choice and if you think that Islam is restrective then I would Invite you to study Islam more deeply than what you know. It is pretty easy go to the right sources there are no preists in Islam nor will any one (except the most crude uneducated and unclutured muslims) try to impose one view or the other on you. All your requests for Information will be met with respect and I can assure there will be no pressure to convert if you want to gain knowledge about Islam.
..........



#171 by sadna on May 29, 2003 3:47pm
Sadna responded with reference to my mention of sati and tantric practicesI had mentioned (to show that the question of free choice in religion was not free to some )

...After a lifetime of living among Hindus, you have to be a very sick person to imply that these are normal practices among Hindus. Just who are you trying to fool here
..

Obviously sadna(and others) argument was that this is not part of hinduism, My stand was its practice for centuries (no matter if rare)and its mention in books and acceptance by the characters of the scriputures meant that it was part of hinduism at least in the past.

This is when all the heat started..

With arguments saying that the hindus are not required to follow any scripture that they dont want. My argument to that is sure but threre are a great majority who simply had no choice in this so if a powerful section of bhramins decided that the shudras were inhumuan then those shudras had no choice in that but to accept it. We went on to how actuall the shudras or women were or were not.

then sadna and others refered to the usual sucide bombing, Jihad etc I excused Islam for one and explained the other. we went on to treatement of women etc.

However all this is not the point at all

What is the point is that that and one which I have made earlier is there are many of us who calim to be very reasonable and free of blame of all the misunderstanding b/w Islam, mulsims on one side and hindus, and hindu religion on the other side. Always beliving that you dont contribute to this misunderstanding. My aim in participating in this debates is not to make religious brownie points but to show a mirror to those who think they are very moderate.

I belevive that is the problem in India the actions of people who consider themsevles to be moderate and how it contributes to the current stalemate(after all the rabid types are in a minority so where does the present suppourt to the sangh comes from?). Afterall there are those Sangh supppuurters in India represented in every section of the socitey.Why are they absent here? or Why are they reluctant to admit their ideology here. What I mean by that may be they themeselves dont realise howmuch they are part of the problem.

That is my goal here. In dissecting religion. I dont want to discuss it but nobdy seems to want to discuss anything else.

#293 by Inquirer on June 5, 2003 12:43pm PT


am still waiting for input from you about my inquiry in # 269.


.. I will when you come back

#296 by Inquirer on June 5, 2003 3:48pm PT
Acutally I feel discussing religon is a waste of time.. at least in this manner. But nobody seems to be intrested in anything else

To all active participants:Sridhar, m_souza and ali87: I just got your latest inputs. Unfortunately, I have to rush out for several days. Hence I can not respond to you individually but I am really heartened by the turn toward greater understanding and dialog.

WE NEED TO LEARN FROM EACH OTHER AND THAT IS DONE BEST BY GIVING RESPECT TO EACH OTHER. I AM SURE WE ARE PEOPLE OF ABOVE AVERAGE INTELLIGENCE BUT WE NEED TO ACCOMODATE TO EACH OTHER.

Hoping, I would have pleasant things to read and we might even turn to the subject I would want all you guys (and gals, if you are interested) to talk about your own religion - not past each other - but to each other upon my return on Monday.

ali87

Firstly, I have always revealed myself for what I am. I don`t hate anyone. I don`t approve fo any riots thart happened..all I am saying is taht possibly thsi could have been a `built-up` reason for them...this too much of criticism of hinduism by muslims.

I have many muslim friends, including Indian muslims. When face to face with Indian muslims, and when I am in India..none of them goes on arguing about Shiva or Indra etcetc..we talk other stuff..
Actually..I am gaining my knowledge about all this from you and also honerable_syed..

Yes..the TV lately has become obsessed with showing every old epic tales
..but Mahabharta Ramanyana were good...so are the moral discourses by saints in the morning show...so are the excerpt sfrom Geeta....but I am sure you didn`t like these too...

In western countries..they show on TV..all the time..esp around Easter/Christmas..the epics and tales from Old Testament..all unbelievable things like jadoo-tonaa..
So what!!!...does that mean people are banned from watching it? or is it that they will lose their sense of judgement?
I myself was concerned once about one such issue so I studied Old testament of Bible..and also read Qurran...guess what!! I found them much worse. So better stick to hinduism and get all the nice things available for spirit..plenty there is..only u ignore it..

ali87 ...go through all your previous posts. You will yourself find yourself getting too obsessed about this `hinduism` issue. Why are you so very concerned about highlighting the ??

I mean ..are you actually concerned about the fate of hinduism?
are u worried about the fate of your country?
are you trying to say that everyone should convert to Islam?
are you trying to justify why so many indians converted to islam? OK they di..but why expect everyone to fell liek you do??

Even if ever there are a few drawbacks here and there in any religion..even then conversion is never an answer..Improving it and interpreting it rightly is the solution.
AFter all what the `converts` go through mentally for many generations is worse than selectively following your own relgion of your own country..

re:#282 by Inquirer
As far as the tone of my interaction is concerned, i set the tone depending on the response i get. Nasty posts cannot expect a decent response. I do not like it when people put down other religons to make a point. I have never criticised Islam or its prophet or the belief system. My criticisms have so far been confined to some of its practitioners.

You may be a new comer. So, you are not aware but we have discussed Mahabharat at length in one of the forums and i had posted the symbolic meaning of its characters and the story. You can search the posts. I do not have time to waste on people like Ali who are unwilling to see anthing good in religions other than their own.
Sridhar

ali87:
There is always the danger of misunderstanding and deterioration of level of conversation when you say things to ``just ruffle people.`` Religion is certainly not a thing for that kind of treatment. As a matter of fact unless we are discussing explicitly frivolously, it is better to maintain a dour and serious attitude.

PS
I am still waiting for input from you about my inquiry in # 269.

re: Problems with Islam
Problem with Islam is not with the religion but with its followers who seem lost as to how to reconcile modern belief system with their glorious (some real, some perceived) islamic past.
Islam has several good things to its credit. It brought emphasis on brotherhood among its followers and did away with slavery (in theory though Arabs, Mughal rulers etc continued to indulge in slave trade) at a time when it was the widely prevalent. Common prayer halls, simple belief system all made this a potent religion. Why is it in conflict with modernity then. The issue is discussed well in the following article:
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/56oct/husseini.htm

A religion which had spread rapidly across continents and which dominated the world in science and technology in the middle ages is finding it hard to reconcile and adjust to the fast changing world of technology. One Islamic Cleric traces the genesis of this problem: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1679397.stm
One idiot in this forum is criticising the seiral ``Om namah Shivayah``. Now, this is based on some ancient text and someone has made it into a serial and people are watching it for fun. They may or may not find it of any religious or spiritual value but they do not complain. We do not find Shankaracharyas shouting basphemy or some fringe group threatening violence because of this or any other such serials. Here is a perfect eg of how Hindus have managed to accept modernity and revive their ancient texts thr` modern innovations like T.V. An entire nation watched when Mahbharat and Ramayana were shown on T.V. A few got the symbolic message but for the most, it was just fun.
Hindus have learnt not to take their religion seriously. That does not mean they are not religous. You do not have to be pretentious to be religious. Hindus do not have to prove anything. Their belief system, which has survived centuries of exploitation and domination, is proof enough. All older civilisations of the world: the Aztecs, the Incas, the early Greeks, the early Romans, the early Egypt, all have gone by the wayside. Only Indian (Hindu) civilisation survives. Intact. all the Gods and Goddesses that you read about or see on the T.V serials have survived the faith of the followers. If you want to read about the Greek, Egypt or other ancient civilisations (there is a lot of talk about Babylon now-a-days after Iraq is conquered!), you have to turn to history books. If you want to learn about hindu civilisation, you only have to visit India. Now, that i think is some achievement.
I said the hindus do not take their religion seriously. By which i mean, serioulsy like the muslims or fundamentalist christians do. That is why politicians like L.K.Advani have to come up with some controversies that would arrest the attention of hindus. Modi had to unleash terror. All for votes. But hindus revel in their Gods and their antics and do not take any of this seriously.
While all this is going on, IT in India is booming. India is sending satellites in space and breaking new frontiers. An old nation is now coming on its own and doing this without discarding anything ancient or what it considers sacred. That i think is worth celebrating.
Sridhar

#285 by m_souza on June 4, 2003 10:02pm PT

well at least it leads you to drop your pretentions and reveal yourself as what you actually are.

..But the way he goes on to put hinduism down with all those irrelevant obsolete connotations,...the `baal ki khaal utaarna`

Now who is to know what is obselete, what is connotations, what is Irrevant... Now dont blame me for using these words for your scriptures.
I did not present this baal up for discussion. If you present an incident then all aspects related to it are up for discussion not just what you extract from it. That after all is your view of it.

on the other hand what you call irrelevant, blah blah .. is not considered to be so by other hindus and probably I can find some post where you too havent considered it so.

Now consider something that is not considered as irrelevant and has millons watching it on prime time. Serial ``Om Namah Shiva`` There is a goddess or somebody celesital who is cursed and is born in a jungle as the daughter of a Sadhu. the little child desires to be united with Siva(read have a union.. whatever that can mean) and starts meditating from a very small age to the exclusion of every thing else. We are told told about the devotion incredible devotion of the girl in hushed tones with appropitate music. Narad passes by and notes this with satisfaction. He mentions this to shiva who (probably needs to be informed by some one else) who doesnt give much importance to it. We are informed that the girl is growing not yet an adolocent(probably b/w 10-13 going by the girl shown in the serial) Shiva hears about this girl again by another god and decides to view her. He is imppressed by her devotion as well as her good looks. The other god teases shiva about it who dismisses the suggestion. A few years later (the girl shown on TV couldnt be more than 15) narad with and few other gods bring the devotion of this girl to sivas attention (Probably Shiva has to release her from the curse of being born a human) . Shiva agrees is persuaded to view the devotion of this girl himself after great reluctance and goes down to earth with narad.
Siva is immediately smitten with this girl, his eyes roll he goes goggle eyed and lost to narad who smiles knowingly. Narad has to get shivas attention back to get him back to hevean. Shiva spends time dreaming about the girl(the scenes are seen to be belived)parvati is concerned and teases him if he is thinking of someone else(qutie prectiive) few days (or short period of time may be days , months whatever ) Shiva is completely besotted and unable to do routine work(or whatever , this is what parvati complaints to Narad who simply smiles beatificaly). Finally we are shown shivas (anguish, for what you can guess) and finally goes down to meet the girl who informs shiva that she is waiting to become one with him and that being the purpose of her being born. We are treated to some very very suggestive scenes of shiva unable to resist being near her and finally he connsumates the union.. End of the episode I couldnt watch the next installment.

Tell me what was the symbolism in this. That a god ,married is over come with lust and cumiliates a sexual union with another girl who seems to be quite young barely a teenager. Int his case the symbolisim was extreemly difficult to dechiper what came accross is what we say. Millions of sedate family people saw this and obviously accepted this as it must have been part of the acutal accepted texts. One of my friends with whom I say this jokingly told me bhagwan ka ye haal hai to ham to bechare insane hain. Obviously he did not get any higher symbolism that was hidden in the story.

Now would you hate me for this retellign this story. But why? this is your story not mine.Ie what you accept. why tell that it is irrelevant, It certainly wasnt irrelevant to the millons who saw it and im sure at least a few out of devotion.
you will hate me for even ackowledging the presence of your own scriptures or stories. But you are yet to mention wether why you consider why they are wrong.

IM confused here, do you consider that they are wrong? or do you consider my recalling them as wrong. Now you call them irrelevant , obselete, connotations, whose connations? (I hope you are not blaming me for inventing them) on the other hand you say that there is absolute freedom to worship in whatever way one wants (probablay the story above or similar stories are to be seen in context of this worship).

So which is it? what is your ideological position exactly. YOu may hate me for what ever you like I suspect that it doesnt take much for you to hate anyone. However that is besides the point here. There is very little I can do about your hate.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

oops that should read agree insteadof disagree

#274 by Tipu on June 3, 2003 9:55pm PT

For the west our countries are a big dark area with some flags standing out like poverty, roits, Diseases or Missiles etc. they do not think of us leading normal lives.

there are many times where we can indicate the nature of our lives for better visulaisaton. What better to say that one can get a heart bypass surgery for $4000.00 to a 55 year old lady without job and insurance or savings and in possible need of a Bypass surgery in near future? It brings up all kinds of questions Like ``Oh they do bypass surgeries in India?`` This gives a chance to give some statistics like say 10000 thousand surgeries carried out last year at which point you can see the gears of visualisation whirring. the elephants and snakes seem to merge into modern hospital buildings. Then comes the questions that these must be govt sponsered operations the answer to that no it is market economics which determine the rates. You feel the sense of disbelief along with a hint of feelign that they are being shortchanged by the much publicised American Dream. Usually the question of education of doctors also comes up. I point out that like software engg the doctors are also available in plenty of number even in the US despite strict restrictons due to political reasons. I point out that the present doctor and nurse shortage as well as cost can come down drastically if Indian doctors are allowed to work here.

I have even advised quite a few poor and average students here to consider studying enggniering in India which may cost only 20-30 thousand in India. Or do their BCA and MCA (bachelors and masters in computer applications) which may only cost about 10 thousand dollars put together. This is more well recived. One white american and another afghan refugee kids are right now enquirng about the possibility.

#271 by sadna on June 3, 2003 7:11pm PT
ali87 #264

For the last few posts, I have found your attitude very demeaning to me and my religion. I donot need to take this cr_p from you and will not be wasting any more of my time on you.
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sadna..thsi is exactly how I felt with ali87 many times..and so I wrote that he is pro-paksitani..because of his shrewd petty style and his demeaning attitude..the type shown by some pakis here at chowk

He may not like one of the major religions of his secular country ..it is all right..nothing we can do..
But the way he goes on to put hinduism down with all those irrelevant obsolete connotations,...the `baal ki khaal utaarna`..... it forces us to dislike his religion(which is after all not even one of the native relgions)

I can see now what led to `gujrat riots` after all...with people calling us kafirs and this and that..for how long can anyone maintain one`s cool....

#284 by ali87 on June 4, 2003 2:51pm PT
#282 by Inquirer on June 4, 2003 8:46am PT

I just like to ruffle people sometimes.
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This `ruffling` habit amongst muslims brought `gujrat riots` on them
For sure, It didn`t happen in one day. It was all slowly building up in the hindu hearts....over the years decades..nono...centuries...

what goes around comes around..keep it up...

Sadna

If you are still around Just check this reality of hinduism and its treatment of women. Present Indian socitey is a different matter as many people are only symbolic hindus. However this is an indication of the reality of the religion as it was very recently and as some of its adherents(who similarly gloss over facts) want it to be.

AVBP is not a small time player and sonia is not some small personality in Indian political life..



`Sonia violated Hanuman shrine sanctity`

http://headlines.sify.com/2431news3.html?headline=`Sonia~violated~Hanuman~shrine~sanctity`

Katni: Bharatiya Janata Yuva Morcha workers washed a Hanuman temple and its deity with Ganga water, alleging that Congress President Sonia Gandhi violated the shrine`s sanctity by offering prayers to the idol from proximity during her recent tour of Madhya Pradesh.

Meanwhile, Bharatiya Janata Party District President Chamanlal Anand and 40 other workers, who were shouting slogans, were arrested for disturbing the peace. They were later released on bail.

However, the temple`s priest Sushil Tyagi said, ``Sonia was standing in that area of the shrine where women are permitted. That is also the place from where ladies perform `parikrama`. She gave me a garland which I offered to the deity.`` ``The BJP workers are presenting the matter wrongly,`` said Police Superintendent R B Sharma.






UNI

#271 by sadna on June 3, 2003 7:11pm PT

No you shouldnt have to suffer anything from me. But what is it that Im doing that you are not?

Sridhar.. various.

The difficulty in symbolism argument is that it seems as an explanation after the fact (ie of finding that the story,epic,scripture seems to conflict with the reasoning of the existing time.)
What was considered Ok at one time is not suitable for another time. However not every thing can be abandoned thus the symbolism argument.
But each to himself. As a muslim In not required to like your belifes neither do I need to hate you.
In fact im sure that if I came across you in real life I would like you a lot. I suspect that you may be a bit partonising but I would not have any problem with it, Im a pretty strong individual.