Who Says You Cant Buy Love?

reply # 134 tehmed32

``most of us lost the type of fascination you seem to have with the female private parts by the time we were 10``

This has been a very well debated article and you have touched upon yet another angle.

I think the fascination is natural if you include the milk glands in the private parts. Surprisingly, the milk glands which are no more than lumps of flesh, do define not only beauty but also sexuality. I guess this is universal in all cultures and societies. I still remember that scene from Titantic where the hero makes that sketch and there is a brief but an exquisite shot of the heroine lying on the couch without the benefit of clothes.

farzana #133 In referring to ``oozing sexuality`` and ``pickles that spoil to the touch`` in the same paragraph, your post seems penetrated by freudian slips.

farzana

...... i know we can come up with all sorts of evidence and arguments to prove that arranged marriages are not all bad, just as we can defend slavery, bonded labor, military rule and other odious institutions like organized religion and village panchayats .............. but the fact remains that arranged marriages survive because of tradition, taboo, the second class status of women, limited economic opportunity for both men and women, lack of education and religious dogma ............ of course, as you point out, many people who make their own choices end up discovering that they are married to the wrong person - sometimes what you see during the courting rituals is not what you get............but at least they made an adult choice which can be easily reversed (at a emotional and financial cost) ................. arranged marriages, on the other hand, are contracts between two families and, in some cases, between two tribes or baradaris and are not that easy to get out of - consequences range from an upset chacha ji to many killed on both sides ..............

............most arranged marriages end up being rather unhappy unions of convenience based on children, financial security, extended family and habitual sex ........... have you ever heard desi couples say anything meaningful to each other other than, `` bhai dekhna, bacha kiyon ro raha hai`` or ``i am going shopping, there are left overs in the fridge`` ............and the men let the hair grow in their ears and noses and the women get broad in the behind and life goes on ...........they get together with other desis - the men stuff their faces with biryani and talk about politics and religion, the women stuff their faces with biryani and talk about god knows what .............mrs hamidm tells me they talk a lot about sex............

nazarhayat #129 most of us lost the type of fascination you seem to have with the female private parts by the time we were 10.

Just a few thoughts…
Re. coming in heat…. “just after menstruation, the human female specie also has a heightened desire for sex”…it is more likely before and during menstruation. Interestingly, while in other species being in heat has to do with readiness to conceive, in the woman it is during the period she is unable to do so. My take is that -- 1. the confirmation of potential fertility is always a reassurance; 2. the impossibility of being merely a progenitor makes sexuality come unburdened and therefore tempting. 3. The fullness due to hormonal changes, like tidal waves, imbues the woman with a wonderful sensuality and the oozing out is akin to peaking.

In many societies, during this period women are considered impure and not allowed into the kitchen or to touch certain foods (like pickles, which apparently spoil with their touch). Another theory is that this was an excuse to give home-bound women the much needed rest from drab household chores. The latter assumes menstruation to be an illness; the former I think would go with the theory of heightened sexual drive.

I would be interested in some clarification from the men here about the general attitude towards menstruating women…why do most men find it repulsive? Or is such a woman more desirable?

hamidm2 on arranged marriages…
“i submit that there is no emotional bonding in these pathetic and unhappy unions, there is only mutual dependence - insipid sex for financial security ............. and of course the survival of the species is insured, even though inbreeding over generations produces rather sorry specimens .............”

While not being a proponent of such alliances, I do not agree with you on the sexual aspect here. The assumption that there is large-scale inbreeding is untrue. In India at least it is common for people to arrange matches outside the family; if you look at the matrimonial web portals, they serve the same purpose… are you trying to say that in the so-called ‘love marriages’ the sex is always great? Many couples have a good time before marriage with the man being perfectly happy with the woman taking the initiative, but once the relationship gets legitimised, I know of at least one instance when the spouse was called a whore when she was more participatory. Financial security is an issue here too, as it is in any institutionalised relationship.

The emotional binding in an arranged marriage is different… which manifests itself when men feel a moral duty to fulfill their wife’s needs and therefore keep her fairly happy (she does not have any grand expectations, remember?), whereas in marriages of choice, the ‘responsibility of being happy is on the partners and therefore dissatisfaction is often kept under wraps because the woman has to be independent enough to understand the problems. The much-derided arranged marriages have a support system and, although interference by families is not desirable, they can be of immense help. And for one who has lived in India all her life, I can say that the woman who has had a traditional marriage is not likely to keep quiet if she does not get her due; in her silent way she is much more demanding than the independent woman because of the contractual nature of her alliance. Besides, haven’t we heard of so many couples who have got together on their own complain about their partners, that s/he was not the person they knew before marriage?

For most of us who cannot adjust to the idea of being with a ‘stranger’, the real issues are Power: of making a choice, and Idealism: of being in love.

Arranged marriage is nothing but a license for legalized sex, not that there is anything wrong with it.
Let’s look at the life cycle of a desi marriage - In the initial stages marriages are kept intact by pleasant sexual experiences and that also without any hunting or need to learn how to approach the opposite sex. Add lots of attention and respect from Sasural for men and jewelery and beautiful clothes for the brides and we are, temporarily, in 7th heaven. The whole thing is programmed to be an anesthesia for the deep invasive operation that we are going to be subjected to pretty soon.
Next, our children become the glue and before you know it, attention is not on whether you love your spouse or its just a routine “job”, we are kept busy with nursery activities, soccer games, SATs and college bills.
And finally, we are too old and it does not matter whether you love each other or not, the real focus is - will my IRA come back to previous levels, will my children carry forward “our values” (read - will they give us resistance to join the rat race or arranged marriages).
Desi marriages survive because a) we are not prepared in childhood to hunt for ourselves b) Social pressures (i.e., Khandan and Izzet business) keep both parties under control even if there are no common interests c) financial inter-dependence d) great freedom that spouses give each other to pursue useless activities (e.g., Chowk writing, shopping).
If you do not care about such trivial and meaningless stuff like love or simple pleasure of ability to bond together in common interests, desi marriages offer many benefits – marriages within your own religion, and even caste, insure that generation after generation we will continue to hate our enemies of previous generations, it insures that our simple minds will not be exposed to new ideas from spouses from different background, we will not be tortured to become tolerant on a day to day practical level the way intermarriages between catholics, jews and protestants force Americans to be and finally d) we south asians will continue to breed and multiply while love marriages as practiced in western countries will continue to negatively impact their numbers due to inherent instability that comes with this business of constant need for worrying about real love.

tahmed

.... you ask, ``what makes you equate arranged marriages with inbreeding?`` ....... i guess it is a fair question, but the answer is obvious - just look at some of the interactors on the chowk !.........do you really think that jay and urstruly are the result of some environmental disaster ?............. and generally speaking, a lot of arranged marriages, specially in the rural areas, do take place within the family ......... do you know any arians or sheikhs who are not married to a first cousin, or at least another arian or sheikh? ........ only a few of us get lucky and end up with pathan mothers and punjabi fathers .........

nazarhayatkhan #129:
The phenomenon of heightened desire you suggesting might be psychological than biological. If a person is used to doing something pleasurable as sex daily, a break of 4-5 days might increase the appetite just as 4-5 days of power outage in small rural communities used to bring cheer when power was finally restored. A heightened level of activity was visibly noticed. Many cultural festivals around the world are also due to arrival of much awaited rain, spring, growing or reaping seasons with no biological basis. If you consider, day after menstruation cycle as rebirth of intercourse, it could be celebrated with heightened activity.

Saminashah: Brain is 24/7 busy controlling the necessary biological function for keeping it alive. Second degree functions are turned on and off automatically depending on the communication between brain and the local needs. We are talking about third level and rationally speaking third rate functions that are turned on and off on demand by the influences from outside the body.

You are in love with nobody when totally absorbed with work or any unrelated to sex activity. You are not in love with anything or anybody when sleeping. Statements like, ``I am in love with him/ her/ it all the time`` is factually wrong and so is ``to love and to cherish till death``. If it can be invoked or induced on demand, it can be induced, invoked post-marriage or with first cousin as with a blue-eyed blonde. The level and duration of ``on`` period may vary, not necessarily in favor of blue-eyed blonde. Beyond one powerful animal instict of procreation, there are many additional variable factors that determine the overall outcome of this equation. Some of these factors are perfectly conditionable from outer local factors.

hamidm2 #127 while i dont think arranged marriages is a good idea, you go too far in branding them all as ``pathetic and unhappy unions``. I for example have had an arranged marriage, and rest assured i would not change anything if i had to go back.
and what makes you equate arranged marriages with inbreeding? this is just another indication of your poor capacity for logic, just like your assumption about insipid sex in arranged marriages, and financial dependence.

your inability to stick to logic (which you demonstrate in every second post i think) is the result no doubt of inbreeding among past generations of hamidms...

Reply # 116 SR

``The human female is notably different from other mammels in that there is menstrural blood loss and hazardous and painful childbirth. This is where nature screwed up. Its an expensive overhead and one that takes a lot to pay for. Not so emmaculate a design after all is it? Other mammels reabsorb the endometrial tissue -- much more efficient. ``

So in simple english, you mean that the human female specie does not come in heat because she loses blood during her mensuration. But all other mammales do not lose blood during the mensuration/whatever.

Thanks.

(However, many girlie magazines point out that there is a heightened desire for sex by woman just after mensuration. Some of it I have observed in my home laboratory as well!)

saminashah,

.... i admire your effort to put a positive spin on the horrible institution of arranged marriages by saying , ``I`d speculate that part of the ``emotional bonding`` that happens among desis in arranged marriage is provided by spiritual belief?``.......... i submit that there is no emotional bonding in these pathetic and unhappy unions, there is only mutual dependence - insipid sex for financial security ............. and of course the survival of the species is insured, even though inbreeding over generations produces rather sorry specimens .............

Interesting discussion. I have noted down some of your points in my little black book - for the rainy days.

Hamidm2, Pankaj,

I`d speculate that part of the ``emotional bonding`` that happens among desis in arranged marriage is provided by spiritual belief? A religious/political/social identity? A larger identification to not only family values, but community values?

And if we accept this definition as one variable of emotional bonding, how can we situate the arranged marriages of Pakistani/Indian Americans?

Okay, something to throw out for discussion:

Are men always in the male equivalent of ``Pms`` due to their biochemistry?

This is a serious question. :)

pankaj,

.... your argument is logical and quite reasonable but it doesn`t apply to desis and other lower forms of homo-sapiens because it is based on the premise the ``A man/woman subconsciously evaluates the ``value`` of both the other partner as well as himself in the process of choosing his/her mate............since most desis have arranged marriages they don`t go through any evaluation process - conscious or subconscious .......... ours choices are based on physical attributes only, and our choices are somewhat constrained by class, baradri, caste, religion and a limited number of first cousins to pick from .............

.......... so as elegant and heart-warming your argument about ``love`` might be, it is a moot point for the horrible hindoos and their converted cousins ..............

ali87 #120 I was of course referring to women married the traditional way. In nontraditional marriages (``love`` marriages as they call them in the subcontinent), of course both partners have had the chance to get to know one another. What your wives friends etc tell them is the standard line handed out when a marriage does not work out in Pakistan (``the boy was impotent and/or badmash`` is what the bride`s side says, and ``the girl was mad`` is what the groom`s side says).

So dont go by what your wife tells you other people told her. Listen to Dr. Ahmed instead.