Atif Mian August 5, 2003
#1 Posted by MantoLives on August 5, 2003 12:49:46 am
PS: You will do well to ignore the abuse from the myopic anti-Pakistan brigade that will come your way now.
#2 Posted by MantoLives on August 5, 2003 12:49:46 am
Atif Mian sahib,
My sentiments exactly. Read this a while back in the Friday times also. I have faith that we will fight back, and win back what is truly ours... this nationstate which has been hijacked by fanatics... Obviously the problem with our secular and idealistic foundations is the apparent anomaly of the separate muslim state. This issue has been discussed in great detail before on this board. In any event nation-states are evolutionary, and Pakistan doesn`t need to be wedded to Muslim Nationalism. Hence Jinnah`s speech where he says:
`Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to be Muslims, not in a religious sense for that is personal faith of an individual, but in a political sense and we shall all become equal citizens of one state`
How can these ignorant mullahs argue for the ideological islamic state then, I will never know...
-Manto
My sentiments exactly. Read this a while back in the Friday times also. I have faith that we will fight back, and win back what is truly ours... this nationstate which has been hijacked by fanatics... Obviously the problem with our secular and idealistic foundations is the apparent anomaly of the separate muslim state. This issue has been discussed in great detail before on this board. In any event nation-states are evolutionary, and Pakistan doesn`t need to be wedded to Muslim Nationalism. Hence Jinnah`s speech where he says:
`Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to be Muslims, not in a religious sense for that is personal faith of an individual, but in a political sense and we shall all become equal citizens of one state`
How can these ignorant mullahs argue for the ideological islamic state then, I will never know...
-Manto
#3 Posted by arjun_m on August 5, 2003 7:08:51 am
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#4 Posted by arjun_m on August 5, 2003 7:08:51 am
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#5 Posted by 87msa on August 5, 2003 7:08:51 am
It amazes me that things could have gotten so bad in Pakistan. As a child I always used to tell off religious neighbours who were shocked that I offerred prayers in jeans or trousers, by suggesting that it was my choice. I never believed that Pakistan would get to such a state.
#6 Posted by Faruk on August 5, 2003 7:08:51 am
Re Article
So what’s your point. Pakistan should become a secular state ?
Faruk
So what’s your point. Pakistan should become a secular state ?
Faruk
#7 Posted by Inquirer on August 5, 2003 8:41:39 am
Educated people in Pakistan need to take stand to separate religion from politics. Relgion should be consigned to its appropriate place, namely, personal homes.
Communal people will have to be barred from holding political offices. That absolutely requires removal of masjid staff from standing in elections. The right of vote itself will have to be restricted to at least high school graduates and the candidacy to secular university graduates.
Communal people will have to be barred from holding political offices. That absolutely requires removal of masjid staff from standing in elections. The right of vote itself will have to be restricted to at least high school graduates and the candidacy to secular university graduates.
#8 Posted by Inquirer on August 5, 2003 8:41:39 am
Educated people in Pakistan need to take stand to separate religion from politics. Relgion should be consigned to its appropriate place, namely, personal homes.
Communal people will have to be barred from holding political offices. That absolutely requires removal of masjid staff from standing in elections. The right of vote itself will have to be restricted to at least high school graduates and the candidacy to secular university graduates.
Communal people will have to be barred from holding political offices. That absolutely requires removal of masjid staff from standing in elections. The right of vote itself will have to be restricted to at least high school graduates and the candidacy to secular university graduates.
#9 Posted by vanguard on August 5, 2003 9:08:12 am
Though I don`t support the mullahs but the fact remains that mullahs won the seats in the parliament fair and square. At least they did not get 98% votes in a referendum with a turnout of 71%.
The bill was presented in the parliament and was stamped by the majority. Can we say the same for our LFO that is keeping His Highness Mr. MAcho Musharraf on the throne. I think not. Dont you forget that NWFP budget has the highest percentage dedicated to education. How many of our other assemblies and governments can claim that.
And who in NWFP except for those going to Burn Halls and Cadet Colleges or Private colleges where trousers. The majority of the population already wears Shalwar Qameez.
I think we are making a mountain out of an ant hill.
Take care
The bill was presented in the parliament and was stamped by the majority. Can we say the same for our LFO that is keeping His Highness Mr. MAcho Musharraf on the throne. I think not. Dont you forget that NWFP budget has the highest percentage dedicated to education. How many of our other assemblies and governments can claim that.
And who in NWFP except for those going to Burn Halls and Cadet Colleges or Private colleges where trousers. The majority of the population already wears Shalwar Qameez.
I think we are making a mountain out of an ant hill.
Take care
#10 Posted by ferozk on August 5, 2003 9:15:36 am
re: Atif Mian
Jinnah is dead and Jinnah`s Pakistan died in 1971. Stop dreaming the impossible and realize that Pakistan of today was created in December 1971. Pakistan of today is an ideological state fasting becoming a theocracy of a politically exclusive minority. The consitution of 1973, which is the holy grail of any liberal Pakistani states quite clearly that sovernity belongs to Allah and national leaders are its rightful trustees. What we have in Pakistan is nothing less than a divine right of the kings and the feudals have replaced the kings, but the excesses of power are still the same.
Do not blame the mullah; blame your beloved consitution, which gives them the right to legalize your dress code. Mullahs did not make Pakistan a theocracy. It was made into a theocracy by those enfeebled liberals, who wrote the 1973 consitution. You wish to reclaim Pakistan, then write another constitution, which gives you the right. You hate the mullah and you cast blame towards him, but remember it was the politicans of Pakistan who went begging bowl in hand to the mullah to give them legitimacy when they grabbed power illegally. Every politican in Pakistan, who was illegitmate asked for mullah`s help to make himself absolved of sins. Who let the mullah into politics? Who allowed the mullah to grab the armalite and raise the banner and kill? While the killing was going on, who turned a blind a eye to it all? Blame the army if you want, but blame yourself because in the name of Kashmir you thought that you could wash away the spot on your conscience. You cried ``out damned spot`` but the spot refused to wash away!
Blame the mullah, but remember that it was the educated class of Pakistan which failed Pakistan and not the mullah. The mullah knew what he wanted, but the educated elite of Pakistan; the guardians of its liberal dreams was confused. We never knew what we wanted and when the people of Pakistan dispised us, they stood behind the mullah, because we raped the very people we promised to hold inviolate. The mullah came to power, because we gave up that power to him; we who were busy amassing wealth and hounding our opponents. While we killed each other, the mullah counted his roseries and waited and he waited till we had proven ourselves to hopless to the people of Pakistan.
By all means blame the mullah and blame the army and blame the bureaucracy and blame the Indians and blame the zionist and blame the Americans and blame the cosmos! Also blame yourself, because you did nothing to stop it all. Where were you in all of this? Blame yourself, because your sin is greater; you are educated and to those whom much is given, much is expected from and yet, you were found wanting.
Yours and my generation has failed Pakistan. Let us accept this fact and not blame others for our short comings.
Ciao
Jinnah is dead and Jinnah`s Pakistan died in 1971. Stop dreaming the impossible and realize that Pakistan of today was created in December 1971. Pakistan of today is an ideological state fasting becoming a theocracy of a politically exclusive minority. The consitution of 1973, which is the holy grail of any liberal Pakistani states quite clearly that sovernity belongs to Allah and national leaders are its rightful trustees. What we have in Pakistan is nothing less than a divine right of the kings and the feudals have replaced the kings, but the excesses of power are still the same.
Do not blame the mullah; blame your beloved consitution, which gives them the right to legalize your dress code. Mullahs did not make Pakistan a theocracy. It was made into a theocracy by those enfeebled liberals, who wrote the 1973 consitution. You wish to reclaim Pakistan, then write another constitution, which gives you the right. You hate the mullah and you cast blame towards him, but remember it was the politicans of Pakistan who went begging bowl in hand to the mullah to give them legitimacy when they grabbed power illegally. Every politican in Pakistan, who was illegitmate asked for mullah`s help to make himself absolved of sins. Who let the mullah into politics? Who allowed the mullah to grab the armalite and raise the banner and kill? While the killing was going on, who turned a blind a eye to it all? Blame the army if you want, but blame yourself because in the name of Kashmir you thought that you could wash away the spot on your conscience. You cried ``out damned spot`` but the spot refused to wash away!
Blame the mullah, but remember that it was the educated class of Pakistan which failed Pakistan and not the mullah. The mullah knew what he wanted, but the educated elite of Pakistan; the guardians of its liberal dreams was confused. We never knew what we wanted and when the people of Pakistan dispised us, they stood behind the mullah, because we raped the very people we promised to hold inviolate. The mullah came to power, because we gave up that power to him; we who were busy amassing wealth and hounding our opponents. While we killed each other, the mullah counted his roseries and waited and he waited till we had proven ourselves to hopless to the people of Pakistan.
By all means blame the mullah and blame the army and blame the bureaucracy and blame the Indians and blame the zionist and blame the Americans and blame the cosmos! Also blame yourself, because you did nothing to stop it all. Where were you in all of this? Blame yourself, because your sin is greater; you are educated and to those whom much is given, much is expected from and yet, you were found wanting.
Yours and my generation has failed Pakistan. Let us accept this fact and not blame others for our short comings.
Ciao
#11 Posted by MantoLives on August 5, 2003 9:49:01 am
Arjunm,
Obviously the saying `little knowledge is dangerous` holds true. You are the living example of it. YLH is under no obligation to educate every tom di-ck and harry with facts.
-Manto
#12 Posted by rozaiba on August 5, 2003 9:49:01 am
came across this item. when people`s party asked fazlu to not accept the agreement on LFO (recent event), fazlu`s response was in the form of a retort to BB: `would you do the same if you controlled two provinces?`
mullah or not, they are politicians first and are being played around with by the faujiz who have no interest apart from their own. similarly, i dont know how long the mullah`s can live off of slogans. i always get the sense that if BB were allowed to return and contest free and fair elections, she`ll win hands down. not cause she`s forgiven, but because in the carnival of free elections, the `chamchay` and `mullay` are always thrashed. of course this would not be acceptable to our dime a dozen faujiz.
i never thought a day would come when i`d despise the faujiz and the conservative establishment so much, i`d prefer to see someone like BB come in thrash them.
mullah or not, they are politicians first and are being played around with by the faujiz who have no interest apart from their own. similarly, i dont know how long the mullah`s can live off of slogans. i always get the sense that if BB were allowed to return and contest free and fair elections, she`ll win hands down. not cause she`s forgiven, but because in the carnival of free elections, the `chamchay` and `mullay` are always thrashed. of course this would not be acceptable to our dime a dozen faujiz.
i never thought a day would come when i`d despise the faujiz and the conservative establishment so much, i`d prefer to see someone like BB come in thrash them.
#13 Posted by 87msa on August 5, 2003 9:49:01 am
This is for `ENQUIRER`. Perhaps I am mistaken but did you suggest that non-high school graduates should not be allowed to vote. You`re kidding, right. Tell me you`re joking. Or have I completely misunderstood. Cuz, if you mean what I think you mean, you`ve just recommended that we have an undemocratic, elitist electoral system. That definitely cannot be the solution.
Oh, and `vanguard`, it does not matter what the majority of people wear in NWFP or anywhere. The choice to wear what they want is what is important. With regards to the highest education budget in the NWFP. It would have been an encouraging sign if it were less brainwashing and more education.
Oh, and `vanguard`, it does not matter what the majority of people wear in NWFP or anywhere. The choice to wear what they want is what is important. With regards to the highest education budget in the NWFP. It would have been an encouraging sign if it were less brainwashing and more education.
#14 Posted by MantoLives on August 5, 2003 9:55:50 am
Those dailytimes people censored the word `phallic` from my letter... tsk tsk...
Ferozek,
I agree with you ... I have always told people that the basis of the problem is the constitution of 1973 ... though some might argue that the problem started in 1949, when Liaqat Ali Khan ignored very reasonable and sane advice from the Hindu MPs who were invoking Jinnah`s promise. Yet, if this Pakistan was created on 16th December 1971, the time has come for another Pakistan... a Pakistan which is peace with its past.
I was looking through the Chambers dictionary once, and I came across 2 meanings for Pakistan ... 1) A republic in South Asia. 2) A former Republic (1947-1971) with East and West Wings.
-Manto
Ferozek,
I agree with you ... I have always told people that the basis of the problem is the constitution of 1973 ... though some might argue that the problem started in 1949, when Liaqat Ali Khan ignored very reasonable and sane advice from the Hindu MPs who were invoking Jinnah`s promise. Yet, if this Pakistan was created on 16th December 1971, the time has come for another Pakistan... a Pakistan which is peace with its past.
I was looking through the Chambers dictionary once, and I came across 2 meanings for Pakistan ... 1) A republic in South Asia. 2) A former Republic (1947-1971) with East and West Wings.
-Manto
#15 Posted by Inquirer on August 5, 2003 10:00:51 am
TRUE. IT IS THE CONSTITUTION OF PAKISTAN, NAY THE PREMISE OF PAKISTAN THAT IS THE ROOT CAUSE OF THE PRSENT WOES. I do not say that we have to undo the Partition of 1947, the thinking in Pakistan have to reassess the communalistic foundation on which the country rests. NO DOUBT THE CONSTITUTION OF PAKISTAN HAS TO BE REWRITTEN. Furthermore, there is no need to rule out the unification of India PROVIDED IT IS DONE RATIONALLY INCLUDING THE rights and RESPONSIBILITY OF ALL. If East Germany and West Germany can unify so can India and Pakistan. Of course, Indians have to accept this too since they stand to lose by unification.
#16 Posted by ferozk on August 5, 2003 10:14:08 am
re: Inquirer & Mantolives
Yes, the preamble to the consitution is a problem and since we are mindlessly devoted to that document, we create our own problems.
Ciao
Yes, the preamble to the consitution is a problem and since we are mindlessly devoted to that document, we create our own problems.
Ciao
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