To Kill the Mockingbird
Zafar Anjum August 5, 2003
#96 Posted by ironman on August 5, 2003 7:08:51 am
#83
Naqshbandi,
You almost seem like 2 differnt people. Obviously at your current young age you don`t feel any great need for internal integration. Pursueing a career in science and mouthing medieval beliefs can co-exist without any problem within you.
Personally I think you are an intelligent person. However given that you are not anonymous (using your real name), perhaps you want to preserve your good name within your sect to persons who might be reading you at chowk. Or perhaps its simply the weight of tradition that you aren`t able to overthrow. Thats what I think of you.
As you grow older perhaps you`ll feel the need for integration.
- - - -
I don`t know if you`ve noticed, most `learned` persons of every religion seem like grumpy old men. Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, etc.
They might have a smile pasted on...but you can tell they`re all angry/depressed about something.
thx,
Naqshbandi,
You almost seem like 2 differnt people. Obviously at your current young age you don`t feel any great need for internal integration. Pursueing a career in science and mouthing medieval beliefs can co-exist without any problem within you.
Personally I think you are an intelligent person. However given that you are not anonymous (using your real name), perhaps you want to preserve your good name within your sect to persons who might be reading you at chowk. Or perhaps its simply the weight of tradition that you aren`t able to overthrow. Thats what I think of you.
As you grow older perhaps you`ll feel the need for integration.
- - - -
I don`t know if you`ve noticed, most `learned` persons of every religion seem like grumpy old men. Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, etc.
They might have a smile pasted on...but you can tell they`re all angry/depressed about something.
thx,
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#95 Posted by arjun_m on August 5, 2003 7:08:51 am
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#94 Posted by harimau on August 5, 2003 7:08:49 am
Ref dost-mittar #86
[soysauce#84
I am surprised that an intelligent poster like you would make such a statement supporting Madrassahs.]
It seems to be an infectious disease on Chowk, a new WMD, that makes one mistake a$$-kissing with intelligence.
Sudalikkannu has gone through a school and curriculum not far different from a madrassah in its imparting of hatred.
[soysauce#84
I am surprised that an intelligent poster like you would make such a statement supporting Madrassahs.]
It seems to be an infectious disease on Chowk, a new WMD, that makes one mistake a$$-kissing with intelligence.
Sudalikkannu has gone through a school and curriculum not far different from a madrassah in its imparting of hatred.
#93 Posted by dost_mittar on August 5, 2003 1:59:05 am
Mantolives:
``Another meaningful debate will now be replaced with an equally pointless debate about partition.``
....only if you accept their bait!
``Another meaningful debate will now be replaced with an equally pointless debate about partition.``
....only if you accept their bait!
#92 Posted by ECHOOOOBOOOM on August 4, 2003 11:42:27 pm
This is a special for Mr. Naqshbandi
Others may peruse it as well but please understand that reading this might effect a major paradigm shift in their thought process.
For a complete introduction to Harun Yahya--a major voice today please access www.harunyahya.com
This is from one of his 192 publications. Born 1956., ankara turkey. A madressah product.
The Information Beyond Matter
& Lawh-i Mahfuz
HARUN YAHYA
Information… This concept today means a lot more than it did even a half century ago. Scientists are developing theories to define information. Social scientists speak of ``the information age.`` Information is becoming a very important concept for humanity.
The discovery of information in the origin of both the universe and life itself is what makes this concept so important in the modern world. Scientists today are realizing that the universe is formed by ``matter, energy and information,`` and this is replacing the materialistic philosophy of the nineteenth century that defined the universe as being made up entirely of ``matter and energy.``
So, what does this all mean?
Let`s explain through an example, that of DNA. All living cells function according to the genetic information in the double helix structure of DNA. Our bodies are also formed by trillions of cells each with its own DNA, and all the functions of our bodies are registered in this giant molecule. Our cells use protein codes inscribed in the DNA to produce new proteins. The information that our DNA possesses is so large that if you wanted to write it down, it would fill up 900 volumes of encyclopedias, cover-to-cover!
So what is DNA made up of? Fifty years ago, scientists would have replied that DNA is formed by nucleic acids called nucleotides and the chemical bonds holding these nucleotides together. In other words, they used to list only the material elements of the DNA. But today, scientists have a different answer: DNA is composed of atoms, molecules, chemical bonds and, most importantly, information.
It`s just like a book. We would be quite mistaken to say that a book is only made up of paper, ink and binding for, alongside these materials, it is the information that truly makes it a book. It is information which separates a volume of the Encyclopedia Britannica from a ``book`` formed by randomly arranged letters like ABICLDIXXGGSDLL. Both have paper, ink and binding, but one has information while the other does not. The source of information is the author of that book, a mind with consciousness. Therefore we can`t deny that the information in DNA was placed there by an intelligent being.
The Information Dead End of Evolutionary Theory and Materialism
The discovery of this fact has sent materialist philosophy and Darwinism, its application to the natural sciences, into a dead end, because materialist philosophy claims that all living things are formed by matter alone and that genetic information appeared somehow by ``chance.`` This is like saying that a book could be formed from a random assemblage of paper and ink.
Materialism subscribes to the theory of ``reductionism,`` which claims that information can ultimately be reduced to matter. For this reason, materialists say that there`s no need to look for any source of information besides matter. But this assertion has been proven to be in error, and even materialists have started to owe up to this truth.
One of the leading defenders of the theory of evolution, George C. Williams, pointed in a 1995 essay to the mistake of materialism (reductionism), that is, assuming everything to consist of materials:
Evolutionary biologists have failed to realize that they work with two more or less incommensurable domains: that of information and that of matter… These two domains will never be brought together in any kind of the sense usually implied by the term ``reductionism.`` …The gene is a package of information, not an object... In biology, when you`re talking about things like genes and genotypes and gene pools, you`re talking about information, not physical objective reality... This dearth of shared descriptors makes matter and information two separate domains of existence, which have to be discussed separately, in their own terms. 1
Stephen C. Meyer, a philosopher of science from the Cambridge University and who is critical of the theory of evolution as well as materialism, says in an interview:
One thing I do in classes to get this idea across the students is that I hold up two computer disks. One is loaded with software, the other one is blank. And I ask, ``What is the difference in mass between these two computer disks as a result of the difference in the information content that they possess``? And of course the answer is zero, none, there is no difference as a result of the information. That is because information is a massless quantity. Information is not a material entity.
Then how can any materialistic explanation explain its origin? How can any material cause explain its origin?... This creates a fundamental challenge to the materialistic evolutionary scenarios.
In the 19th century, we thought that there were two fundamental entities of science: Matter and energy. At the beginning of the 21st century, we now recognize that there is a third fundamental entity, and it is information. It is not reducible to matter; it is not reducible to energy. 2
All theories put forward in the twentieth century to reduce information to matter-like the random origin of life, self-organization of matter, the biological theory of evolution that has tried to explain species` genetic information through the mechanism of mutation and natural selection-have failed. Professor Phillip Johnson, a leading critic of Darwinism, wrote:
The real duality at every level of biology is the duality of matter and information. The philosophers of mind-science fail to understand the true nature of information because they assume that it is produced by a material (i.e. Darwinian) process and hence is not something fundamentally different from matter. But this is merely a prejudice that would be swept away by unbiased thinking. 3
As Johnson states, ``information is not matter, although it is imprinted on matter. It comes from elsewhere, from an intelligence....`` Dr. Werner Gitt, a director and professor at the German Federal Institute of Physics and Technology, expressed much the same thought:
A coding system always entails a nonmaterial intellectual process. A physical matter cannot produce an information code. All experiences show that every piece of creative information represents some mental effort and can be traced to a personal idea-giver who exercised his own free will, and who is endowed with an intelligent mind.... There is no known law of nature, no known process and no known sequence of events which can cause information to originate by itself in matter... 4
As we discussed above, a book is formed by paper, ink and the information it includes. The source of this information is the mind of the author.
And there is one more important point: This mind comes prior to the material elements and it decides how to use them. A book first appears in the mind of the person who will write that book. The author makes logical connections and comes up with sentences. Later, in the second stage, he gives these ideas a material form. By using a typewriter or computer, he turns the information contained within his mind into letters. Later these letters go to a printing house and they make up a book.
So here, we can reach the following conclusion: ``If matter includes information, then that material has been pre-organized by a mind possessing that information. First there was a mind, and then the owner of that mind turned that information into matter and thus created a design.``
The Mind That Existed Before Matter
Therefore, the source of the information in nature cannot be the matter itself, as the materialists claim. The source of information is not matter, but rather a supra-material Mind. This Mind existed before matter. The Mind created, shaped and organized the whole material universe.
Biology isn`t the only branch of science leading us to this conclusion. Twentieth century astronomy and physics also demonstrated the existence of an astonishing harmony and design, pointing to the existence of a Mind that existed before the universe and created it.
Israeli scientist Gerald Schroeder who studied physics and biology in universities like the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), and the author of the book The Science of God, makes some important remarks on this subject. In his new book entitled The Hidden Face of God: Science Reveals the Ultimate Truth, he explains the conclusion reached by molecular biology and quantum physics as follows:
A single consciousness, a universal wisdom, pervades the universe. The discoveries of science, those that search the quantum nature of subatomic matter, have moved us to the brink of a startling realization: all existence is the expression of this wisdom. In the laboratories we experience it as information that first physically articulated as energy and then condensed into the form of matter. Every particle, every being, from atom to human, appears to represent a level of information, of wisdom. 5
According to Schroeder, the scientific results of our age lead science and theology to meet at a common truth. This is the truth of Creation. Science is now re-discovering this truth that divine religions have actually taught to humanity for millennia.
The Lawh-i Mahfuz (The Preserved Tablet)
So far, we have looked at science`s conclusions about the universe and the origin of living things. The conclusion is that the entire universe and life itself were created using a blueprint of magnificent information that existed before.
This conclusion reached by modern science is strikingly in agreement with a secret that was laid out in the Qur`an some 14 centuries ago. In the Qur`an, a book sent to people as a guide, God announced that the Lawh-i Mahfuz (the Preserved Tablet) existed before the creation of the universe and that it furthermore explained all creation and events in the universe.
The Lawh-i Mahfuz was ``guarded`` (mahfuz) so the things written there were not changed or spoiled. In the Qur`an, this is called ``Ommu al-Kitabi`` (The Mother of the Book), ``Kitabun Hafeethun`` (All-Preserving Book), ``Kitabin Maknoonin`` (Well-Protected Book) or just the book. It is also called Kitabin min Qabli (The Book of Decrees) since it also tells of the events that humanity will face.
In many verses, God tells about the characteristics of the Lawh-i Mahfuz. First of all, there is nothing missing from this book:
The keys of the Unseen are in His possession. No one knows them but Him. He knows everything in the land and sea. No leaf falls without His knowing it. There is no seed in the darkness of the earth, and nothing moist or dry which is not in a Clear Book. (Qur`an, 6: 59)
One verse says that all life in the world is recorded in the Lawh-i Mahfuz:
There is no creature crawling on the earth or flying creature, flying on its wings, who are not communities just like yourselves —We have not omitted anything from the Book— then they will be gathered to their Lord. (Qur`an, 6: 38)
In another verse, it is stated that ``on earth and in the heavens,`` in the entire universe, all creatures and things, including the smallest speck, are known by God and recorded in the Lawh-i Mahfuz:
You do not engage in any matter or recite any of the Qur`an or do any action without Our witnessing you while you are occupied with it. Not even the smallest speck eludes your Lord, either on earth or in heaven. Nor is there anything smaller than that, or larger, which is not in a Clear Book. (Qur`an, 10: 61)
All information concerning humanity is in the Lawh-i Mahfuz, and this includes the genetic code of all people and their destinies:
Nonetheless they are amazed that a warner should have come to them from among themselves and those who disbelieve say, ``What an extraordinary thing! When we are dead and turned to dust? That would be a most unlikely return!`` We know exactly how the earth eats them away. We possess an all-preserving Book. (Qur`an, 50: 2-4)
The following verse states that God`s words in the Lawh-i Mahfuz are endless, and this is explained through an example:
If all the trees on earth were pens and all the sea, with seven more seas besides, was ink God`s words still would not run dry. God is Almighty, All-Wise. (Qur`an, 31: 27)
Conclusion
The facts that we explored in this article prove yet again that the findings of modern science confirm what religion teaches to people. The materialist dogmatism that has been imposed on science is in fact rejected by science itself.
The conclusions of modern science about information serve to objectively demonstrate who is right in a dispute that has been raging for thousands of years. This dispute has been waged between materialist thought and religion. Materialist thought claims that matter is without beginning and that nothing existed before matter. Religion, on the other hand, states that God existed before matter, and that matter is created and ruled by God`s endless knowledge.
The fact that this truth, which has been taught by divine religions - like Judaism, Christianity and Islam - since the dawn of history, has been proved by the findings of science, is an indication of the impending post-atheist age. Humanity is getting closer to realizing that God truly exists and He is the ``All-Knowing.`` Just as reminded to people in the following verse of the Holy Qur`an:
Do you not know that God knows everything in heaven and earth? That is in a Book. That is easy for God. (Qur`an, 22: 70)
Others may peruse it as well but please understand that reading this might effect a major paradigm shift in their thought process.
For a complete introduction to Harun Yahya--a major voice today please access www.harunyahya.com
This is from one of his 192 publications. Born 1956., ankara turkey. A madressah product.
The Information Beyond Matter
& Lawh-i Mahfuz
HARUN YAHYA
Information… This concept today means a lot more than it did even a half century ago. Scientists are developing theories to define information. Social scientists speak of ``the information age.`` Information is becoming a very important concept for humanity.
The discovery of information in the origin of both the universe and life itself is what makes this concept so important in the modern world. Scientists today are realizing that the universe is formed by ``matter, energy and information,`` and this is replacing the materialistic philosophy of the nineteenth century that defined the universe as being made up entirely of ``matter and energy.``
So, what does this all mean?
Let`s explain through an example, that of DNA. All living cells function according to the genetic information in the double helix structure of DNA. Our bodies are also formed by trillions of cells each with its own DNA, and all the functions of our bodies are registered in this giant molecule. Our cells use protein codes inscribed in the DNA to produce new proteins. The information that our DNA possesses is so large that if you wanted to write it down, it would fill up 900 volumes of encyclopedias, cover-to-cover!
So what is DNA made up of? Fifty years ago, scientists would have replied that DNA is formed by nucleic acids called nucleotides and the chemical bonds holding these nucleotides together. In other words, they used to list only the material elements of the DNA. But today, scientists have a different answer: DNA is composed of atoms, molecules, chemical bonds and, most importantly, information.
It`s just like a book. We would be quite mistaken to say that a book is only made up of paper, ink and binding for, alongside these materials, it is the information that truly makes it a book. It is information which separates a volume of the Encyclopedia Britannica from a ``book`` formed by randomly arranged letters like ABICLDIXXGGSDLL. Both have paper, ink and binding, but one has information while the other does not. The source of information is the author of that book, a mind with consciousness. Therefore we can`t deny that the information in DNA was placed there by an intelligent being.
The Information Dead End of Evolutionary Theory and Materialism
The discovery of this fact has sent materialist philosophy and Darwinism, its application to the natural sciences, into a dead end, because materialist philosophy claims that all living things are formed by matter alone and that genetic information appeared somehow by ``chance.`` This is like saying that a book could be formed from a random assemblage of paper and ink.
Materialism subscribes to the theory of ``reductionism,`` which claims that information can ultimately be reduced to matter. For this reason, materialists say that there`s no need to look for any source of information besides matter. But this assertion has been proven to be in error, and even materialists have started to owe up to this truth.
One of the leading defenders of the theory of evolution, George C. Williams, pointed in a 1995 essay to the mistake of materialism (reductionism), that is, assuming everything to consist of materials:
Evolutionary biologists have failed to realize that they work with two more or less incommensurable domains: that of information and that of matter… These two domains will never be brought together in any kind of the sense usually implied by the term ``reductionism.`` …The gene is a package of information, not an object... In biology, when you`re talking about things like genes and genotypes and gene pools, you`re talking about information, not physical objective reality... This dearth of shared descriptors makes matter and information two separate domains of existence, which have to be discussed separately, in their own terms. 1
Stephen C. Meyer, a philosopher of science from the Cambridge University and who is critical of the theory of evolution as well as materialism, says in an interview:
One thing I do in classes to get this idea across the students is that I hold up two computer disks. One is loaded with software, the other one is blank. And I ask, ``What is the difference in mass between these two computer disks as a result of the difference in the information content that they possess``? And of course the answer is zero, none, there is no difference as a result of the information. That is because information is a massless quantity. Information is not a material entity.
Then how can any materialistic explanation explain its origin? How can any material cause explain its origin?... This creates a fundamental challenge to the materialistic evolutionary scenarios.
In the 19th century, we thought that there were two fundamental entities of science: Matter and energy. At the beginning of the 21st century, we now recognize that there is a third fundamental entity, and it is information. It is not reducible to matter; it is not reducible to energy. 2
All theories put forward in the twentieth century to reduce information to matter-like the random origin of life, self-organization of matter, the biological theory of evolution that has tried to explain species` genetic information through the mechanism of mutation and natural selection-have failed. Professor Phillip Johnson, a leading critic of Darwinism, wrote:
The real duality at every level of biology is the duality of matter and information. The philosophers of mind-science fail to understand the true nature of information because they assume that it is produced by a material (i.e. Darwinian) process and hence is not something fundamentally different from matter. But this is merely a prejudice that would be swept away by unbiased thinking. 3
As Johnson states, ``information is not matter, although it is imprinted on matter. It comes from elsewhere, from an intelligence....`` Dr. Werner Gitt, a director and professor at the German Federal Institute of Physics and Technology, expressed much the same thought:
A coding system always entails a nonmaterial intellectual process. A physical matter cannot produce an information code. All experiences show that every piece of creative information represents some mental effort and can be traced to a personal idea-giver who exercised his own free will, and who is endowed with an intelligent mind.... There is no known law of nature, no known process and no known sequence of events which can cause information to originate by itself in matter... 4
As we discussed above, a book is formed by paper, ink and the information it includes. The source of this information is the mind of the author.
And there is one more important point: This mind comes prior to the material elements and it decides how to use them. A book first appears in the mind of the person who will write that book. The author makes logical connections and comes up with sentences. Later, in the second stage, he gives these ideas a material form. By using a typewriter or computer, he turns the information contained within his mind into letters. Later these letters go to a printing house and they make up a book.
So here, we can reach the following conclusion: ``If matter includes information, then that material has been pre-organized by a mind possessing that information. First there was a mind, and then the owner of that mind turned that information into matter and thus created a design.``
The Mind That Existed Before Matter
Therefore, the source of the information in nature cannot be the matter itself, as the materialists claim. The source of information is not matter, but rather a supra-material Mind. This Mind existed before matter. The Mind created, shaped and organized the whole material universe.
Biology isn`t the only branch of science leading us to this conclusion. Twentieth century astronomy and physics also demonstrated the existence of an astonishing harmony and design, pointing to the existence of a Mind that existed before the universe and created it.
Israeli scientist Gerald Schroeder who studied physics and biology in universities like the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), and the author of the book The Science of God, makes some important remarks on this subject. In his new book entitled The Hidden Face of God: Science Reveals the Ultimate Truth, he explains the conclusion reached by molecular biology and quantum physics as follows:
A single consciousness, a universal wisdom, pervades the universe. The discoveries of science, those that search the quantum nature of subatomic matter, have moved us to the brink of a startling realization: all existence is the expression of this wisdom. In the laboratories we experience it as information that first physically articulated as energy and then condensed into the form of matter. Every particle, every being, from atom to human, appears to represent a level of information, of wisdom. 5
According to Schroeder, the scientific results of our age lead science and theology to meet at a common truth. This is the truth of Creation. Science is now re-discovering this truth that divine religions have actually taught to humanity for millennia.
The Lawh-i Mahfuz (The Preserved Tablet)
So far, we have looked at science`s conclusions about the universe and the origin of living things. The conclusion is that the entire universe and life itself were created using a blueprint of magnificent information that existed before.
This conclusion reached by modern science is strikingly in agreement with a secret that was laid out in the Qur`an some 14 centuries ago. In the Qur`an, a book sent to people as a guide, God announced that the Lawh-i Mahfuz (the Preserved Tablet) existed before the creation of the universe and that it furthermore explained all creation and events in the universe.
The Lawh-i Mahfuz was ``guarded`` (mahfuz) so the things written there were not changed or spoiled. In the Qur`an, this is called ``Ommu al-Kitabi`` (The Mother of the Book), ``Kitabun Hafeethun`` (All-Preserving Book), ``Kitabin Maknoonin`` (Well-Protected Book) or just the book. It is also called Kitabin min Qabli (The Book of Decrees) since it also tells of the events that humanity will face.
In many verses, God tells about the characteristics of the Lawh-i Mahfuz. First of all, there is nothing missing from this book:
The keys of the Unseen are in His possession. No one knows them but Him. He knows everything in the land and sea. No leaf falls without His knowing it. There is no seed in the darkness of the earth, and nothing moist or dry which is not in a Clear Book. (Qur`an, 6: 59)
One verse says that all life in the world is recorded in the Lawh-i Mahfuz:
There is no creature crawling on the earth or flying creature, flying on its wings, who are not communities just like yourselves —We have not omitted anything from the Book— then they will be gathered to their Lord. (Qur`an, 6: 38)
In another verse, it is stated that ``on earth and in the heavens,`` in the entire universe, all creatures and things, including the smallest speck, are known by God and recorded in the Lawh-i Mahfuz:
You do not engage in any matter or recite any of the Qur`an or do any action without Our witnessing you while you are occupied with it. Not even the smallest speck eludes your Lord, either on earth or in heaven. Nor is there anything smaller than that, or larger, which is not in a Clear Book. (Qur`an, 10: 61)
All information concerning humanity is in the Lawh-i Mahfuz, and this includes the genetic code of all people and their destinies:
Nonetheless they are amazed that a warner should have come to them from among themselves and those who disbelieve say, ``What an extraordinary thing! When we are dead and turned to dust? That would be a most unlikely return!`` We know exactly how the earth eats them away. We possess an all-preserving Book. (Qur`an, 50: 2-4)
The following verse states that God`s words in the Lawh-i Mahfuz are endless, and this is explained through an example:
If all the trees on earth were pens and all the sea, with seven more seas besides, was ink God`s words still would not run dry. God is Almighty, All-Wise. (Qur`an, 31: 27)
Conclusion
The facts that we explored in this article prove yet again that the findings of modern science confirm what religion teaches to people. The materialist dogmatism that has been imposed on science is in fact rejected by science itself.
The conclusions of modern science about information serve to objectively demonstrate who is right in a dispute that has been raging for thousands of years. This dispute has been waged between materialist thought and religion. Materialist thought claims that matter is without beginning and that nothing existed before matter. Religion, on the other hand, states that God existed before matter, and that matter is created and ruled by God`s endless knowledge.
The fact that this truth, which has been taught by divine religions - like Judaism, Christianity and Islam - since the dawn of history, has been proved by the findings of science, is an indication of the impending post-atheist age. Humanity is getting closer to realizing that God truly exists and He is the ``All-Knowing.`` Just as reminded to people in the following verse of the Holy Qur`an:
Do you not know that God knows everything in heaven and earth? That is in a Book. That is easy for God. (Qur`an, 22: 70)
#91 Posted by stuka on August 4, 2003 6:16:51 pm
Manto:
``My concern is the belated arrival of the tormentors of my previous incarnation. I am sorry but I consider Arjun-m and P-Mishra the card carrying members of this brigade... it is only a matter of time before they indulge in their favorite past time. ``
I was talking about the same thing. My point is that I don`t think they have posted any such remark and more importantly this debate is not about India-Pakistan. For a change, this debate is about an issue that affects both countries. Therefore I don`t expect it to become a slanging match.
Well, at least I hope not...
``My concern is the belated arrival of the tormentors of my previous incarnation. I am sorry but I consider Arjun-m and P-Mishra the card carrying members of this brigade... it is only a matter of time before they indulge in their favorite past time. ``
I was talking about the same thing. My point is that I don`t think they have posted any such remark and more importantly this debate is not about India-Pakistan. For a change, this debate is about an issue that affects both countries. Therefore I don`t expect it to become a slanging match.
Well, at least I hope not...
#90 Posted by MantoLives on August 4, 2003 2:48:38 pm
Stuka,
I am not sure I get your post. Infact I am in total agreement as you know with the anti-Madrassah stance... I am not talking about that... My concern is the belated arrival of the tormentors of my previous incarnation. I am sorry but I consider Arjun-m and P-Mishra the card carrying members of this brigade... it is only a matter of time before they indulge in their favorite past time.
Another meaningful debate will now be replaced with an equally pointless debate about partition.
-Manto
I am not sure I get your post. Infact I am in total agreement as you know with the anti-Madrassah stance... I am not talking about that... My concern is the belated arrival of the tormentors of my previous incarnation. I am sorry but I consider Arjun-m and P-Mishra the card carrying members of this brigade... it is only a matter of time before they indulge in their favorite past time.
Another meaningful debate will now be replaced with an equally pointless debate about partition.
-Manto
#89 Posted by stuka on August 4, 2003 2:28:57 pm
Manto:
Now that the `I hate Pakistan brigade` is fully operational, We can expect this board to deteriorate in a personal mudslinging match. My solace is the vindication by Stuka in post #73
Why do you say ``hate pakistan``? Most of the posts are with regards to internal problems of Iindia ie pro versus anti Madarsa which coincidentally are also relevant to Pakistan as well.
Now that the `I hate Pakistan brigade` is fully operational, We can expect this board to deteriorate in a personal mudslinging match. My solace is the vindication by Stuka in post #73
Why do you say ``hate pakistan``? Most of the posts are with regards to internal problems of Iindia ie pro versus anti Madarsa which coincidentally are also relevant to Pakistan as well.
#88 Posted by MantoLives on August 4, 2003 1:54:47 pm
Arjun-M,
Clearly you haven`t been reading my posts then. Waisay aj I admit, Stuka took the lead in quoting the Jinnah speech I wanted to quote.
Naqshbandi,
``all those modernists you mentioned were and are considered heretics/apostates``
I am sorry to hear your views on the great muslims I mentioned... I might point out that you are right... the traditional ulema did consider all of them heretics, including Iqbal and Jinnah (who in the last years of his life got the great distinction of being `Kafir-e-Azam` or the Great Kafir according to traditional Ulema`)... given your standards i am a little disappointed that you seem to think that in his last days Jinnah gave up his heresy.
Who gave the traditional ulema the right to `takfir` anyway? Isn`t that God`s domain?
-Manto
PS: Now that the `I hate Pakistan brigade` is fully operational, We can expect this board to deteriorate in a personal mudslinging match. My solace is the vindication by Stuka in post #73
Clearly you haven`t been reading my posts then. Waisay aj I admit, Stuka took the lead in quoting the Jinnah speech I wanted to quote.
Naqshbandi,
``all those modernists you mentioned were and are considered heretics/apostates``
I am sorry to hear your views on the great muslims I mentioned... I might point out that you are right... the traditional ulema did consider all of them heretics, including Iqbal and Jinnah (who in the last years of his life got the great distinction of being `Kafir-e-Azam` or the Great Kafir according to traditional Ulema`)... given your standards i am a little disappointed that you seem to think that in his last days Jinnah gave up his heresy.
Who gave the traditional ulema the right to `takfir` anyway? Isn`t that God`s domain?
-Manto
PS: Now that the `I hate Pakistan brigade` is fully operational, We can expect this board to deteriorate in a personal mudslinging match. My solace is the vindication by Stuka in post #73
#87 Posted by stuka on August 4, 2003 1:54:46 pm
Dost Mittar: Are you sure they are two different people? Hmm. Okay, I assumed they were the same person. Even the ex-IFS chap is a Bihari.
Anyways, I was talking about the ex-IFS chap who made the call of boycott of Republic Day.
Soyasauce: Yes, it is only my personal opinion.
Keep in mind though, I am the sort of person who will oppose Madarsas in a knee jerk manner. Okay? Now, my point to Zafar was that if you want to make a good case, you have to go to those who will oppose you, not those who already support you. Therefore, if he was making the case to the Hindu middle class (which may not have much voting power but seems to be the political barometer) then bringing forth Shahbuddin`s name is not helpful. Hhe is closely identified with Shah Bano case at least in North India.
Anyways, I was talking about the ex-IFS chap who made the call of boycott of Republic Day.
Soyasauce: Yes, it is only my personal opinion.
Keep in mind though, I am the sort of person who will oppose Madarsas in a knee jerk manner. Okay? Now, my point to Zafar was that if you want to make a good case, you have to go to those who will oppose you, not those who already support you. Therefore, if he was making the case to the Hindu middle class (which may not have much voting power but seems to be the political barometer) then bringing forth Shahbuddin`s name is not helpful. Hhe is closely identified with Shah Bano case at least in North India.
#86 Posted by dost_mittar on August 4, 2003 10:55:10 am
stuka:
There are two Shahabbudins. There is Syed Shahabuddin, a former IFS officer, who runs the organ Muslim India, is involved with Muslim Law Board and is a forceful spokespersons for Muslim causes, such as Madrassa, Persona Law and Babri Masjid.
The other is a scoundrel politician of Bihar. An MP from Siwan and a close ally of Laloo and part of the Muslim-Yadav alliance, he is involved in several high profile murders and crimes and is supposed to have an army of outlaws under him. He is the one that is the subject of unbailable warrant by the Bihar police.
It is easy to mix the two.
soysauce#84
I am surprised that an intelligent poster like you would make such a statement supporting Madrassahs. As I said earlier (#57) while the govt. cannot close down Madrassahs until it provides access to quality education for everyone, it can and it must regulate and monitor what`s going on there.
There are two Shahabbudins. There is Syed Shahabuddin, a former IFS officer, who runs the organ Muslim India, is involved with Muslim Law Board and is a forceful spokespersons for Muslim causes, such as Madrassa, Persona Law and Babri Masjid.
The other is a scoundrel politician of Bihar. An MP from Siwan and a close ally of Laloo and part of the Muslim-Yadav alliance, he is involved in several high profile murders and crimes and is supposed to have an army of outlaws under him. He is the one that is the subject of unbailable warrant by the Bihar police.
It is easy to mix the two.
soysauce#84
I am surprised that an intelligent poster like you would make such a statement supporting Madrassahs. As I said earlier (#57) while the govt. cannot close down Madrassahs until it provides access to quality education for everyone, it can and it must regulate and monitor what`s going on there.
#85 Posted by soysauce on August 4, 2003 10:38:45 am
#19 Stuka
So it`s only your opinion. All right. (I don`t know punjabi, btw).
Those who are righteously condemning the proliferation of madrassahs have probably never been to a village or a village school where rote learning and memorization are what education has become. There are few facilities and, in many cases, a functioning building itself is a luxury. Speaking for myself, most of my classmates were there because of the free meal. You didn`t necessarily learn anything by going to school. There were exceptions of course but the quality of education that the vast majority of students get is probably no better than what madrassah students get.
Perhaps you all just want to exchage indoctrination by state with indoctrination by non-state actors. If madrassahs bother you, then you should work to have more schools with curricula that lead to productive employment. Madrassahs mostly fill a vacuum.
So it`s only your opinion. All right. (I don`t know punjabi, btw).
Those who are righteously condemning the proliferation of madrassahs have probably never been to a village or a village school where rote learning and memorization are what education has become. There are few facilities and, in many cases, a functioning building itself is a luxury. Speaking for myself, most of my classmates were there because of the free meal. You didn`t necessarily learn anything by going to school. There were exceptions of course but the quality of education that the vast majority of students get is probably no better than what madrassah students get.
Perhaps you all just want to exchage indoctrination by state with indoctrination by non-state actors. If madrassahs bother you, then you should work to have more schools with curricula that lead to productive employment. Madrassahs mostly fill a vacuum.
#84 Posted by arjun_m on August 4, 2003 10:38:45 am
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#83 Posted by Naqshbandi on August 4, 2003 10:03:43 am
ironman==i answered that question in detail by sameer in one of my earlier posts==please see that. also there is no traditional muslim who says that muslims can`t get a modern education either. just as not everyone in a society can be a doctor for it to function likewise not everyone can be an alim. BUT alims are necessary and the madrassahs are there to produce them. the lack of great alims is what has necessitated the creation of institutes like the Zaytuna Institute so this shortfall can be reversed. if i could be 16 again i would not go into science as a career. when i was 15/16 that is what i wanted to be. when i learned more about islam for myself via ulama and mashaikh etc. my interest in it got more and more. now i wish i had become an alim. as for my kids i will definitely encourage at least one of them to be an alim and all of them to be a huffaaz and if they all wanted to i would be happy too. i dont have any yet though...
***
manto/ylh...
in all honesty with the exception of Iqbal and JInnah at the end of his life all those modernists you mentioned were and are considered heretics/apostates by the traditional ulama of the Ahlus Sunnah. We do not need such modernists. indeed they are the problem!
Shaykh Hamza is a traditional, moderate, Sunni =Sufi scholar. (He has been initiated into the Sufi order of the great, late, Yemeni Sufi Shaykh Hadrat Sayyid Habib Ahmad Mashur al Haddad--may Allah perfume his resting place.)
There is no confrontation between learning traditional islam and learning modern scientific knowledge. For exampe another American Muslim scholar--the lebanese Shaykh HIsham Kabbani Naqshbandi is a Sufi shaykh and an great alim but he also holds a medical degree from a European University! There is no contradiction. So Muslims going to madrassahs doesn`t mean we cant have modern knowledge too but if our generation and the next generations are to maintain their traditional islamic values and aqaid then these madrassahs are vital to impart this knowledge.
***
manto/ylh...
in all honesty with the exception of Iqbal and JInnah at the end of his life all those modernists you mentioned were and are considered heretics/apostates by the traditional ulama of the Ahlus Sunnah. We do not need such modernists. indeed they are the problem!
Shaykh Hamza is a traditional, moderate, Sunni =Sufi scholar. (He has been initiated into the Sufi order of the great, late, Yemeni Sufi Shaykh Hadrat Sayyid Habib Ahmad Mashur al Haddad--may Allah perfume his resting place.)
There is no confrontation between learning traditional islam and learning modern scientific knowledge. For exampe another American Muslim scholar--the lebanese Shaykh HIsham Kabbani Naqshbandi is a Sufi shaykh and an great alim but he also holds a medical degree from a European University! There is no contradiction. So Muslims going to madrassahs doesn`t mean we cant have modern knowledge too but if our generation and the next generations are to maintain their traditional islamic values and aqaid then these madrassahs are vital to impart this knowledge.
#82 Posted by pmishra2 on August 4, 2003 9:53:26 am
Summary of Article: certain Muslim groups have a right in India to be as obscurantist as possible. They should have the right to run schools based on a curriculum which was obsolete in the 19th century. After all, a 100 years ago the schools had a positive impact on indians (for example, Rajendra Prasad). Why change a ``good`` thing? There is no need to move along and change. Also, they need to control their vote banks and what better thing to do then to isolated students starting from school. Keep in mind that in school impressionable minds might be given a broader orientation.
[begin-sarcasm]
The output of these schools will not be able to get any job in the economy. But that is their democratic right! If a few of the outputs become jihadi islamists, what can you expect? Did the society help these people by giving them jobs? See, this is all sarkari discrimination.
[end-sarcasm]
The giveway in this article is the repeated reference to the opinions of the great Syed Shahabuddin. It is rare to find a person (maybe Modi and Lallo are worse) who personifies the ugliest form of vote bank politics than this buffoon. This is a person who himself is finely educated but believes that all muslims (at least ! maybe he believes that everyone should) be kept in the 1400 century.
Here are a few of his gems from the past 20 years:
``Syed Shahabuddin and his pet theme: Islam Khatre mein Hain``
http://www.media-watch.org/articles/0299/517.html
But while it has become politically incorrect to acknowledge this, secularists
must also admit that part of the problem was the attitude of the
fundamentalists within the Muslim community. The Muslim leadership never
bothered to explain to Hindus why it regarded the right to refuse to pay
maintenance to ex-wives as being so important. Nor did it explain its
opposition to a common civil code in terms that most Hindus found reasonable.
However, no issue contributed to the Hindu backlash quite as much as the
uproar over The Satanic Verses. This was a book that the overwhelming majority
of Indian Muslims would never have read. Even those who called for a ban on
The Satanic Verses — such as Syed Shahabuddin — cheerfully admitted that not
only had they not read the book but that they had no intention of doing so.
Despite this, the government of Rajiv Gandhi, out of some misplaced sense of
secularism, immediately acceded to the demand for a ban. But even this did not
satisfy sections of the Muslim leadership. Rent-a-crowd demonstrators were
made to storm the British Deputy High Commission in Bombay, apparently on the
ground that the book had been published in England. Rallies condemning Rushdie
were held all over the country. The level of the opposition was laid bare by
the Shahi Imam’s famous sermon against ‘this perfidious Salman’, in the course
of which it became clear that he thought that Salman Rushdie and Salman
Khurshid were the same person.
+++++++++++++++++++
Here is another comment by M. J. Akbar on the AIMPLB (All India Muslim Personal Law Board) whose agenda is preservation of Sharia and otherwise death to all indians, muslim or not. Shri Shahabuddin is a guiding light of the AIMPLB. You can find this article at Asian Age (http://www.asianage.com), which for some reason has one of these eccentric URL schemes that are private to the site.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In 1972, the late Qari Mohammed Tayyab suggested the formation of a lobby group at a meeting in the seminary of Deoband. A convention was held in Mumbai on 27-28 December 1972 to establish the All-India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB), with Tayyab as the first president. It had an uncomplicated agenda: to thwart any effort to interfere, by either the government or the courts, with its interpretation of the Islamic law (or Sharia). In effect it meant that this body of clergy and like-minded politicians and activists would oppose any change, even if that change was beneficial to the community. It gave to itself veto rights on Islamic law; its continual slogan was ``Islam is in danger!``; and its mission was to herd an insecure community into a vote bank that it would deliver to those who were ready to recognise its sole spokesman role for the Indian Muslim community.
So far it has held ten all-India sessions. Its 41 executive members are not elected by Muslims, but inducted in the manner of a private club. It would be unfair to suggest that everything it has done is necessarily regressive, but it would be fair to say that this has been its broad thrust, as can only be expected of a body so heavily weighted by the influence of the clergy. Its attitude towards social reform is best summed by the position it took on family planning. It is interesting that political parties ideologically close to the Board, like the Muslim League, supported the imposition of the Emergency by Mrs Indira Gandhi in 1975. But what might be called the ``Muslim Parivar`` changed tack when Mrs Gandhi used the Emergency to push some overdue social programmes like family planning. At an extraordinary meeting held on 17-18 April 1976 the Board declared that sterilisation (nasbandi) was haram or prohibited.
In all matters of family law the Board has taken a male-oriented view. Its most dramatic success was the blackmail of an inexperienced Rajiv Gandhi over the Supreme Court decision in the Shah Bano case. The Board mobilised Muslims and forced Rajiv Gandhi to deny a poor, ageing divorcee minimal maintenance from her estranged husband. I daresay that if among Muslims only women for some reason were thieves, the Board would have demanded that their hands be cut off. However, the Board has not suggested that Muslim thieves should be awarded the Quranic punishment irrespective of how Indian law treats non-Muslim thieves. It accepts reform for thieves, but not for divorcees. I find it appalling.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
So we should understand the basic thrust of this article as reflective of the AIMPLB mindset. I completely accept that forces like VHP/RSS are unfairly targetting the muslim community.
BUT WHAT SHOULD THE RESPONSE BE? More segregration? Refusal to acknowledge that ALL indians should have some similar curriculum? That an educational system that does not teach basic job skills is outmoded and ultimately harmful to its own students?
One respondent raised the question of schools run by RSS or Christian groups being fundamentalist in orientation. You should be aware that ALL such schools emphasize performance in board exams (what does that mean about their curriculum, dunderhead??).
Recently, Somini Sengupta of the NYTimes visited one such RSS school. She found it narrow minded and somewhat backward. However, EVERY student in the school took the central board exams after standard 10. She interviewed a ``hindu fundamentalist`` student who was not very informed about muslims and other indian cultures. This student was planning to go to Law School so that he could fight for ``hindu rights``!! I will not comment any further on the difference between this fundamentalist and others. You can come to your own conclusion about an aspiration that seeks to use the tools of modern society (law!) and the organs of the state, and decide whether it is true ``fundamentalism``.
#81 Posted by MantoLives on August 4, 2003 9:53:26 am
Yantric has made some valid points... however I would also say that a large portion of the Islamic mysticism was based on the idea that God is infinite. Hence our Monotheism might well be polytheism, for if God is infinite, God is everything.... right?
Please excuse my poor command over poetry but here is a couplet from Iqbal I think:
Mujhe daboya honay nay
Agar na hota to Khuda hota
-Manto
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