To Kill the Mockingbird

Manto:

``Hence I am a little disappointed by the question because it exhibits a certain fallacious estimate of Pakistan and its people. ``

I am sorry. Can you elucidate on this sentence. I have not understood the reference to ``fallacious estimate.``



``The problem with the official Pakistani ideology is not that it is backward or the mistress of the sharia-honking mullahs, but that it still caught up in the Muslim nationalism of the 30s and the 40s. Infact my own issue is the attempt to balance an inherent modernity with an emotional attachment to Islam which is what the Pakistani ideology is all about... not that it isn`t a noble idea, but that it has failed over and over again. The islamic portions of this ideology thus have been abused by rigid elements. Hence we should abandon it for secularism.

Hope that makes you understand my position better vis a vis the official Pakistani ideology.``

I think so though I am not sure. I think what you are saying that because Pakistan is a reality it does not need the Muslim nationalism of the 1930s and 1940s. It can carry on being a republic and ``Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to be Muslims`` as a consequence. If I have understood you correctly, I agree. If not maybe you can help bridge the gap.

Naqshbandi,

You haven`t answered Sameer`s main question:

How come YOU opted for an education in modern medical science and not a madarsah education? Will you send your children to the Madarsah?

Many chowkies think you are a hypocrite #1. Please answer these questions and prove them wrong.

Nasbandhi,

{{Islam sees this world as a testbed for the Next World which is the real, infinite, life; in comparison this worldly life is just a dream.}}

Yes yes huzoor....I`ve heard that from you; ad nauseum.

A yr or so ago, you announced (with GREAT flourish...I might add..)
that you are concentrating your full life henceforth, to prepare for the Next World & had to wistfully bid a fond farewell to Chowk.

Well that fond farewell lasted exactly a few months...
Then you came back to Chowk with increasing vigor as the self appointed REAL muslim of Chowk (ofcourse you dont actually claim it...you just imply it, very humbly, in your sweet, informative, Islamic scholarly posts)...

I sincerely believe Almighty is so impressed by your piety that He gave you an advance visa to jannat. In fact, Allah`s miracles never cease to amaze me. I wouldnt be surprised if Allah send a pure Syed in your life`s path, who blessed you with a well placed kick in the skull. . May He continue to shower His divine benevolence on you, your future 4 loving, virtuous wives & 15 children.

Pakistan is lucky that real muslims like you are going back & reproducing at a very impressive rate (Allah`s blessings; ofcourse). Pakistan, no doubt is becoming the world magnet for real muslims (of course--some are more real muslims than others, in your egalitarian Islamic Republic...but then-- nobody`s perfect)... May Pakistan rise like a phoenix with a 150 million hafizs...that, in itself, will be more powerful than India`s dastardly nuclear bombs!

And; after all of you have made Pakistan the shining beacon of the world...you will be awarded 72 virgins in Jannat...
Man! I was THIS close to signing up; & then that outcast 12 head (may Allah bless all 12 of them) revealed that those virgins should be treated like your SISTERS!

ThankYou Allah, for not making me muslim...I could behave myself with 72 nubile ``sisters`` for maybe about 100 yrs....but for an ETERNITY!!
Wow! learning the Quran must give you guys incredible self-discipline!...
...either that or jannat has plenty of cold showers & all-you-can-eat Valium!

Thank You Allah for coming to me in 33 million shapes & forms (including the shape of a penis for Chris-sake!) ThankYou Allah for telling me that as a Hindu god; You can be mischievious & have a wicked sense of humor. ThankYou for not coming to me as an angry, shapeless, punitive though merciful parent. ThankYou for allowing me to question your word , from time to time-eventhough, I admit, I can be very wrong.

Lastly, ThanYou Allah for sparing me the fate of jannat...
I mean... I GUESS I can learn to accept celibacy & tolerate 72 nubile virgins...
but to pitch a tent next to qumquats like Nasbandhi, OBL & the Ayatollah Khoemeni..for an ETERNITY...nope...I`ll pass...NOT my idea of Heaven!

re: naqshabandi

{Islam sees this world as a testbed for the Next World which is the real, infinite, life; in comparison this worldly life is just a dream. }


...why don`t you hasten your departure into the real, infinite life and leave this ``worldly dream``...

Sameer, you asked me to tell you the benefits of being a Hafiz?

The benefits are the innumerable blessings of Allah in this world and the next; in this world you will be rewarded for protecting [hafiz] the Word of Allah from any alterations: as Sayyid Hashmi Mian said that the existence of millions of Muslims in the world at any one time who know the whole Quran by heart letter by letter is protection of it (in case some people try to alter parts of it they do not like--which has been attempted)--and it is a part of the Qur`an`s miraculous nature that it is the only Holy Book which can be memorised totally even by kids; no hafiz of other Holy Books exist who can recite the whole Bible, for example, by heart without a single mistake.

Apart from improving one`s discipline, memory and sharpening one`s intellect, the major rewards will be in the Next World; although even in this world people pay hafiz of the Qur`an great respect throughout the Muslim world. For Muslims the expectation of the unimaginable rewards to come from Allah in the Next World are what really matter. On that Day Huffaaz will be the winners.

In short the primary reasons Muslims do something should be for the pleasure of Allah and this leads to promised rewards in the Next World and as the blessing of such activities Allah blesses us with rewards in this world too if He wills but the main focus is for Next World.

Islam sees this world as a testbed for the Next World which is the real, infinite, life; in comparison this worldly life is just a dream.

Muslim employment and representation or massacres of Muslims......
Wonder what they say about conversions and massacre of Kafirs ?

but by no stretch of imagination are they pro-Pakistan or anti-India
Clever twist of words eh ? Are they ``pro-ummah`` or ``pro-shariat``(Vs the Indian consitution) or ``anti-kafir`` ?? Wouldn`t this put them into a ``anti-india`` bucket - atleast to some extent ?

There might be a few small Madarsahs along the India-Nepal border, which, unknown to them, have been used by Pakistani agencies for their own purposes, but if this is at all the case these must be very small in number.
Holy Cow/Pig.......so they are extremely innocent and if the fault is to put on anyobody`s door step, it`s the ISI or the Indian Govt !!!

as there is no evidence of Indian Madarsahs having anything to do with their counterparts across the border, or for that sake, even their counterparts within the country.
So Madrasahs are water tight compartments.....and they have nothing to do with each other - fine. Do they have something to do with the Masjids at all ? And the Masjids of the world have Rabid imams (UK, Indonesia, Pak, India etc etc and etc) and sure they leave Madrasahs alone. Since you said it and since nothing is to be questioned we take it that Madrasahs are the best places to send one`s kid to.

“The railway ministry has withdrawn concessions to our students`` says the maulana.
Sorry, but even this has not made them join a Govt school. No school in your area ? Well how about a Shah bano type agitation to get some schools in Muslim colonies that teach primary education @ a nominal fees or without it ? Religion can be taught an hour after school or on the weekends. Nah, Islam/Qaum Khatrein mein hain. And that stupid Syed Shahbuddin will see this as a ploy to breaks Indian Muslim`s backbone. Zafar & Co will write a Phd Thesis proving him. Sucks big time............

We assure Maulana Zubair and come out of the seminary. He escorts us till we finally depart from the place. We have the feeling that we have come out of an orphanage. We wonder: If these people had a little more money, they would eat better food and perhaps buy some more books, and surely some notebooks too. If you don’t believe this, go see for yourself.
Would you please compare a ``Hindu Orphanage`` Or ``any Orphanage`` with a ``Muslim Orphanage`` and write an article on what`s different ? How much time is spent on ``Islamisation`` Vs ``Skills to earn a livelihood`` in these orgns ?


(We visited the Jamia Arabia Shamsul Uloom on Sunday, April 6, 2003)
A visit to one = Character profile of ALL Madrasahs ????? Yes Sir, what next ?

and the increased mistrust [3] against the curricula of government schools, Madarsahs are often the only available educational option for children from poor Muslim families,
Mistrust against curricula ???? et tu Zafar ??? This is pathetic to say the least.


Why do we need Madrasahs at all ? Those who wd like to join the Imam-hood can take regular classes...the rest should join a Govt school ......or the same money that the current Madrasahs are getting should be utilised in brining in modern edn.

Dost Mittar ji, #57, and others, my optimism is based on a variety of observations, not the least of which are:-

a) Supplementing of retrospective religion attributes with consumerism as the major behaviour pattern.

b) Elimination of frugality as a virtue from the Indian psyche across religious and social mass barriers.

c) The visible emergence of women especially in the smaller cities / semi urban / semi rural areas all over the country and in rural areas in the South & West of India.

d) An increasing acceptance of realities (behind closed doors) by the most virulent of fundoos, of whom I assure you I know more than my fair share.

What I want to bring out on chowk is simply that the ``Qaum Khatre Mein Hai`` garden variety petro dollar sponsored Muslim ``leader`` in India never was and increasingly is not representative of anything except their own narrow interests.

After all, what and who is a Muslim leader in India? Is it the President of India? Is it the richest man in India? Is it the winner of Wimbledon? Is it Ismail Langda?

And likewise, what and who is a Hindu, Christian or Sikh leader in India?

For sure, the religious heads of these religions in India are not their real mass leaders, so why should we assume that the religious heads of the Muslims are their real leaders?

My reaction to Zafar`s presentation is that some sort of an objection to Madarsas can under no circumstances be projected as any sort of discrimination against a complete community or religion.

To take this further, I would say that Zafar and his ilk have a hidden agenda in trying to portray this as some sort of attack on the complete Muslim presence in India, and that is more dangerous than anything the Government or Hindutva can ever manage.

In brief, if there has to be a single one-liner to Zafar and his sort from other Indians, then it is this : Let my People Go.

Please note, as you land at a vast variety of Indian airports, that the predominant colour of plastic roof coverings in shanty towns/slums is no longer saffron/yellow or green, to signify dominant communities. It is now a fairly universal deep blue, and if anybody thinks they understand Indian political-religious issues, then let me know here what they think this may indicate?

Please also note, co-operative banks (operating no doubt under religious and community lines), now bye-pass the old order, and provide loans for small businesses at interest rates almost one third of the traditional 3 percent a month that used to be charged by religious trusts. Likewise MNC foreign banks, reaching out to the small retail customer. In my humble opinion, this is the main problem we are facing in India, that the religious linkage with commerce is now running out of steam.

How many of us know this simple little fact? That micro-finance, which used to be the mainstay of existence for religious activities, is now moving out of their control? Along with communications and information?

Do I see that in Zafar`s article? No, according to him, religion is a stand-alone? And Islam especially is a stand-alone? In INDIA?? How much more removed from reality can Zafar be?

We should be thankful to the authors for writing on a very important subject. Their detailed article provides ammunition for both sides of the divide, those who are for or against Madrrasa, although it is quite clear where the authors’ sympathies lie.

Madrassas have historically fulfilled an important function of providing literacy to thousands of villages and communities, in addition to producing many Alam-Fazils from those institutions. But they have not been able to keep up with the times and it is in the nature of the institution that the room for change is limited. The formula has gone well beyond its expiry date. Now, the state is obligated to assume the educational function that had earlier befallen to the Madrassas by default.

I am against children starting their learning process with the instructions that “Nothing in this Book is to questioned.” Or that the Book and the hadith provide a complete guide to all aspects of a person’s life, spiritual and temporal. Such teachings should remain within the four walls of household and religious congregations or some version of Sunday schools.

I think that Indians have been spending too much time on the issue of Uniform Civil Code. They should be focussing more on a Uniform Educational Code. Although I would prefer to have a UCC, the issue is of importance primarily to Muslims. Non-Muslims should adopt a passive attitude towards it until the victims of the Muslim Personal Law, Muslim women, start protesting against it. A uniform education code is needed, however, to ensure that every child of India has an equal opportunity to access all opportunities available to Indian citizens and also to contribute equally to their nation, regardless of whether she/he goes to a an institution run by a Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Sikh or a secular institution – public or private.

The state in India has been derelict in its responsibility to provide quality education to all Indians. In the case of Muslims, in particular, it has failed to provide access to them education in Urdu, their mother-tongue. Until it does so, it has no right to close down the Madrassas. But it has every right to regulate their teachings. You quote Shahabudin’s objection that:
“(the state motivation) It is to penetrate the Madarsah system, to monitor what goes on there, what is taught, whether the students are motivated to become militants and trained in the use of fire arms, whether the Madarsahs serve as shelters for the ISI!”

I don’t see any reason to object monitoring even if it is true. The State has every right to monitor all educational institutions, especially Madrassas, because of the nature of the potentially subversive ideology that can be taught in them. Why subversive? Because the Book (1) uses the harshest language for those who do not believe in God or do not believe in the Prophet (2) tells them that they are living in a world of confrontation/discord/enemies (dar-ul-harb); (2) jihad is the noblest of endeavours and the Prophet had the strongest words of condemnation for those who did not participate in his jihad (we are not talking about the so-called jihad-ul-akbar, folks!) (3) teaches concepts like blasphemy, apostacy and associated punishments (4) that it was alright to demolish other people’s places of worship, derisivelycalled but-khanas, just like the Prophet did, (5) teaches them that the laws of their country are contrary to the laws prescribed by their religious book and sharia and (6) teaches them that their loyalty to a supra-national Umma exceeds their loyalty to every other institution. It is a wonder, indeed, how most of the graduates of these institutions turn out to be law-abiding citizens.

As a digression, I would go even further. I would suggest that all countries, especially those where Muslims are a minority, should follow the recent Egyptian ruling that all mosques in the country use the same khutbas in their Friday prayers.

Veeresh:
Good post. Hope your optimism is well-founded.

Yantric says @ 24

``.................The students that are indoctrinated in these schools will find it harder to assimilate and become part of the American society. This will lead to further alienation of muslims and the main stream. Moreover, the kids coming out of these schools will have much harder time dealing with people of other faiths when these kids go to the .............``

Sometimes it is very difficult for those who worship money-godess, and are indoctrinated to cooperate with paymasters, to comprehend this.

Unless one is afraid of such zeal and determination there is no need to worry about their `welfare`. The criteria are different.

sameerJB

Could you please tell us one simple advantage of becoming hafiz-e-Quran...

...this was directed at asif...and he may answer you if he so choses...

...there is one immediate advantage that i have seen replicated with great success later in their (huffaz`s) lives is the development of photographic memory...

...let me elaborate...i know several professional muslims who are hafiz and have excelled at non-madressah secular education...(they hail from different classes...some of them realised this and most did not)...but a great deal of their success in later educational endeavours was the development of this photographic ability...

...t

One does not have to abandon religious zest to excel in the scientific pursuit; One need not abandon science to be counted among the ones who necessarily listened to God.

Balance is the key and compliments to those who consider the pursuit of both as complementing or rather reinforcing each other.

It is sometimes not easy for either the dyed-in-wool (suf) or dyed-in-the polyester to comprehend this. Both serve mankind well!


Muslim, Jewish, and Christian Scientists Hold International Summit to Call for Peaceful Dialogue
Story Filed: Monday, August 12, 2002 10:46 PM EST

GRANADA, Spain, Aug 11, 2002 (ASCRIBE NEWS via COMTEX) -- Ten days from today, leading scientists from the Middle East, Europe, and North America will gather to call for peaceful dialogue among Muslims, Jews, and Christians. The unprecedented summit meeting in Granada, Spain is a response to religiously motivated conflicts around the world, including the September 11 attacks in the United States and the global rise in terrorism. The scientists will meet with over one hundred scholars and religious leaders to face two major geopolitical threats: erupting cultural conflicts among the three monotheisms, and rising tensions between modern technological society and religious fundamentalism. The Science and the Spiritual Quest Spain Symposium will provide a public forum for debate Friday evening, August 23 - Sunday evening, August 25, 2002 at the historic Alhambra Palace Hotel. For more information and registration, visit www.ssq.net or call +1-510-848-2355.

On the eve of the summit, some of the scientists were already speaking out. ``Our era cries out for a new political vision that can take care of the spiritual and environmental crises of our time-specifically moral void, injustice, violence, and war,`` asserted Iranian physicist and Muslim scholar Mehdi Golshani. Meanwhile Tsevi Mazeh, an Israeli astrophysicist and longtime Orthodox Jewish peace activist, expressed hope and caution: ``Objectivity and rationalism, two of the pillars of modern science, can be used to balance the strong trends of particularity within the three major monotheistic faiths. . . but the main source of openness and respect for the `other` should be found within the core of each tradition.``

British astrophysicist S. Jocelyn Bell Burnell, renowned for co-discovering pulsars, recalled that Albert Einstein, Bertrand Russell, and other famous scientists assembled to respond publicly to the Cold War peril of thermonuclear warfare. Herself a national leader in the Quaker tradition, Bell Burnell raised a challenge for the summit in Spain: ``Do we need something similar for today`s `hot` wars? Are we the people to do it?``

Observers note the uniqueness of a meeting that features devout Jews, Muslims, and Christians who are also scientists at the cutting edge of their research disciplines. Jim Schaal, Program Director of the symposium`s sponsoring organization Science and the Spiritual Quest, commented: ``In more settled times, the academic discussion of science and religion could afford to dwell primarily on theoretical questions of theology and philosophy. Now scientific developments in fields like genomics and neuroscience join longstanding concerns, such as environmental degradation and weapons of mass destruction, to bring urgent and practical issues of ethics and politics to the forefront of debate. We believe that religiously committed scientists must be heard-not only in academic discourse, but also in the public and policymaking arenas.``

Although Christianity and Judaism have long struggled to come to terms with the modern sciences to which they played midwife, Islam has until recently been less engaged in the Western scholarly dialogue with science-despite the legacy of high scientific accomplishments in the Muslim world during the medieval era. This, too, is changing as both Muslims and non-Muslims recognize science and its technological offspring as central players in widespread religious conflicts.

The shift in emphasis was compelling at the SSQ Boston Conference at Harvard in October 2001, when eminent French astrophysicist and Sufi Muslim scholar Bruno Abd-al-Haqq Guiderdoni delivered an impassioned plea for ethical reflection and cultural reconciliation in the wake of September 11. In a nationwide telecast, he said: ``I am a scientist and I am a believer. . . (and) I feel deeply concerned by our twenty-first century. The terrible events of September 11 cast a dark shadow on it. . . Do we have reasons to hope again?`` An attainable vision of peace with justice, Guiderdoni argued, demands shared understandings of the human condition informed by open-minded, humble approaches to both scientific and religious truth. To rousing applause, he concluded: ``The fundamental issue we have to address is clear: do we believe in the human as much as God believes in the human?``

Guiderdoni will be a keynote speaker in the opening session of the public SSQ symposium in Granada. The closing session, entitled ``Modern Science, Contemporary Politics, and Living Religions: Is There Hope for Peace?,`` will directly confront the political realities besetting the world today.

The three ``Abrahamic`` monotheisms will be broadly and fairly represented in Spain, with one speaker from each tradition featured in most sessions. Joining Guiderdoni and Mehdi to speak from a Muslim perspective at the Spain Symposium are Ayub Ommaya, a well-known Pakistani-American neuroscientist, and Munawar Anees, a Pakistani biologist and social critic hailed for his outspoken resistance while imprisoned by Malaysian authorities. Also featured is a speaker from the Baha`i Faith, a tradition rooted in Islam and dedicated to world peace: the Iranian-British scientist Faraneh Vargha-Khadem, noted for her research on cognitive and behavioral neuropathology in children.

Along with Mazeh, Jewish speakers include distinguished eminent Harvard neuroscientist and vision expert Stephen Kosslyn; Carl Feit, a respected cancer researcher and Talmudic Jewish scholar; Israeli historian of science and religion Noah Efron; American philosopher Norbert Samuelson; and Andrew Newberg, a noted American researcher in brain function and mystical experience.

Joining Bell Burnell from a Christian viewpoint are Cambridge mathematical physicist and Anglican priest and theologian John Polkinghorne, who recently won the coveted Templeton Prize; William Hurlbut, a Stanford physician and biomedical ethicist recently appointed to the Presidential Council on Bioethics; Ted Peters, a noted theologian and consultant on issues in genetics; and eminent South African cosmologist and Quaker scholar George F. R. Ellis.

Ref stuka #33

[Harimau: Are you talking about that haraami from DMK? He openly sided with the LTTE when the IPKF was in Sri Lanka. It is only after Rajeev Gandhi`s assasination that he quickly and hypocritically changed his views in public about the LTTE.]

Yes, I am. No, he hasn`t changed his views on the LTTE; he is just keeping quiet because Jayalalitha has thrown the MDMK leader Vaiko and a couple of others into jail under POTA for supporting the LTTE and those guys are not getting bail either. Vajpayee & Co are totally powerless to get him released (it might have happened in the last few months when I have been away from India) since Jayalalitha is able to point out that LTTE IS a terrorist organization for assassinating Rajiv Gandhi if not anything else.

It is great reief to see that so many people share the thought that Madressa be confined to some basic part time religious education - and no more.

Surprisingly, a completely illeterate is not confused on the issue. It is only semi-educated man who is gets confused - and tries to find knowledge i.e. physics, chemistry, maths, socialogy etc through this education. He is more dangerous since he professes to be educated.

my two pence:

Real Education instills an urge for inquiry.
This urge for inquiry results in creativity and adds to the knowledge base.
Religious education dampens the sense of inquiry ; and all gospals ae to be accepted without any reservations.

Education, creativity and inquiry can function fully only in a secular environment. (I hope it makes some sense!)

So the madressa issue in Pakistan is serious and needs to be dealt with the seriousness it deserves lest our future generations are hurled back into the dark ages.

re: jay

{ May be this should point to the situation in pakistan, other than the recent ones returned with chain and balls, how many pakistanis have come back from abroad.}

....of the thousands of indian IIT grads educated with indian taxpayer subsidies, a majority leave the country but only a tiny fraction return...they start salivating the moment they step into IIT to somehow get to the US...

...let us not point fingers at pakis on this point...

..is this naqshabandi dude for real?...i find it hard to believe that this is not a joke...

Chowkstaff,

Thankyou for replacing the repeated post with my original Sir Syed post.#42

-Manto