To Kill the Mockingbird

My reference was to the Jamiat-e-ulema-Hind... not Hindu...

sorry if I caused any offence to any hindu friends.

How is Jay`s post relevant, I will never know, but as far as I know every tom dick and harry these days in Pakistan has a foreign degree (meaning that they went abroad and returned)... Infact in the parliament of 1993-1996 it was rumored that there were more oxbridge people than in the British Parliament... at a recent Oxbridge reunion thrown by the British High commissioner around a 1000 of the most successful Pakistanis, including Najam Sethi, Jugnu Mohsin, Aitzaz Ahsan, etc

Comparisons like the kind Jay makes are pointless. Why aren`t posts like these by people motivated by an express desire to start an India-Pakistan match rejected outright?

Ok where is my post on Sir Syed Ahmed Khan? I am shocked that it got lost... I spent a lot of time on that... I don`t believe this..

Stuka,

Let me try and do this again...

Sir Syed Ahmed Khan is one of the most celebrated figures in the Pakistani History books. He forms a major portion of the Pakistan studies curriculum, infact more than Jinnah whose life Pakistani historians wish to obscure. I am sure you are aware of his role as the original idealogue of the two Nation theory. His attempts at modernizing muslim education are stressed even overemphasized by our history books. Infact my own estimate of the man is less admirable than the Pakistani official ideology makes him out to be.

After all it was Sir Syed Ahmed Khan and his Muslim Educational Conference which got transformed into the All India Muslim League. At partition, most of those who could be considered successors to that modernist Muslim movement sided with the league, whereas the Jamiat-e-Ulema-Hindu and Deobandis (who hated Sir Syed Ahmed Khan) opposed the creation of Pakistan bitterly. Like I said before, mere alliance with Congress should not be reason enough to think someone to be progressive. Infact most Aligarh educated Muslim modernists formed the vanguard of the Pakistan Movement, and most religious conservative Muslims were opposed to partition, reasons for which have been elaborated before. The history of the subcontinent can`t be compartmentalized as some wish to in both Pakistan and India.

Maudoodi by contrast doesn`t find any mention in Pakistani ideology or Pakistani History books, perhaps due to his opposition to partition which I am sure you know all about.
The problem with official Pakistani ideology isn`t what you make it out to be. Jamaat e Islami and its ideology are not the idealogues and the ideology of Pakistan... despite their best attempts. The problem with the Pakistani ideology as officially espoused is that while it makes all the right noises about freedom etc, it seeks to balance out modern concepts with an emotive adherence to Islam. It is that last part that gets abused by the Islamists. It is here, that I suggest an abandonment of this official ideology in favor of secularism.

-Manto

Stanford alumni meet on Aug. 6

By Our Special Correspondent



Bangalore Aug. 2 . Azim Premji, Mukesh Ambani, Naushad Forves, Jyotiraditya Scindia, and Nadir Godrej do not need an introduction.

Other than being successful in their respective domains, they are among the more than one thousand strong Stanford alumni in India.

//////

May be this should point to the situation in pakistan, other than the recent ones returned with chain and balls, how many pakistanis have come back from abroad.

Stuka,

Sir Syed Ahmed Khan is perhaps the most celebrated Muslim figure in Pakistani History along with Jinnah and Iqbal. Every History book in Pakistan dedicates a whole first part and section to him. He forms the core of the Pakistan Studies curriculum, infact there is more material on him than say Mohammed Ali Jinnah, whose life the Pakistani history books want to obscure. Sir Syed`s contributions to the modernization of Muslim thought are stressed, even overemphasized. Surely you must know that as the original idealogue of the Two Nation theory, which he certainly was, his importance in the `Pakistani ideology` is towering to those who wish to stress that part of his life. Maudoodi, given his inherent opposition to Jinnah and the League and partition, on the other hand finds no mention in Pakistani history books, despite attempts by the Jamaat to rewrite the History.

Your question made me think that you have an exaggerated idea about the Pakistani ideology whatever that is. Infact my own estimate of Sir Syed Ahmed Khan is less admirable than given in the Pakistani history books. However It is amazing when Pakistan studies teachers and experts go blank, when one shows them the inherent contradiction between the laudatory chapters on Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, and then the portions re written by Zia time historians.

Sir Syed Ahmed Khan and his muslim education conference and movement came under sharp crticism from the deobandi ulema. Sir Syed`s Muslim conference was what transformed itself into the `Muslim League` in 1906. In 1940s, it was the same Muslim league which drew most support from the Muslim modernists of the sir syed camp and indeed the Ali garh university, while we know that the anti-Partition muslims were basically the successors of the deobandi ulema who hated Sir Syed Ahmed Khan. That is why in an earlier post, I pointed out that not everyone who allied themselves with the Congress should automatically be considered progressive...

Hence I am a little disappointed by the question because it exhibits a certain fallacious estimate of Pakistan and its people. The problem with the official Pakistani ideology is not that it is backward or the mistress of the sharia-honking mullahs, but that it still caught up in the Muslim nationalism of the 30s and the 40s. Infact my own issue is the attempt to balance an inherent modernity with an emotional attachment to Islam which is what the Pakistani ideology is all about... not that it isn`t a noble idea, but that it has failed over and over again. The islamic portions of this ideology thus have been abused by rigid elements. Hence we should abandon it for secularism.

Hope that makes you understand my position better vis a vis the official Pakistani ideology.

Authors:
Please give a brief account of Hindu Sikh and Christain religious schools in India as well. Are they also turning out bright learned people like the Jamia Millias do? Please understand that by learned it is not meant here the moneyed, powered , the corporate or IT kind or even the `scientist` who is servile to technology & Industry. By learned here is being refered to as the one excelling in pure basic ab-initio research & discovery in any endeavour be it Theology, philosophy or the sciences,--like the world renowned scientists of India who all were, invariably, from hindu/muslim/christain fundamentalist- religious schools.

Please elaborate and enlighten.

Naqshbandi,

I am sure you find Hamza Yusuf and his attempts to keep the Muslim Youth away from modern knowledge as very noble, but I think it is plain sick and disgusting ...

-Manto

sameerJB, #16,

You say to Naqshbandi: ``You have chosen worldly education in natural sciences for yourself in a non-Muslim environment. How can you suggest parents to send their children with potential to be doctors/ engineers to a madrasssah in Lahore or Karachi?``

I take exception and umbrage at this attack on Naqshbandi.

Has he not made it amply clear that he keeps his `personal and religious lives separate`??

:-)

This is good article to know the education of muslims in india of religious oriented schools.

As I said earlier there is unsaid , unorganised undirected emergence of Hindu Ummah. It has not relationship between BJP, congress or any other party as neither controls them. It is not a organised but under current is there just as Indian Muslim Unity or muslim Ummah.

It appears following challenges will have to be faced by both Ummahs of India

1. Uniform civil code.
I like above scholors to address what is there feeling about uniform codes. As uniform code will steamrolled many muslim different coustoms.
If they are opposed what is time frame? When they feel it cabn become acceptable and will hindu ummah has right to bring UCC.

2. Temple question.
It appears Ram Mandir/ Babri Mashid business will be tied in courts for even one more century.
I am thinking of mashi and Mathura temple question. There is no certainty about existance of ram temple.

The other two were officially destroyed and Mashids built upon them.

What and Muslim Ummah of India will protect them. I am aware as per govt of India Rules no change is permitted in existing things.

With rise of subtle hindu ummah it will demanding restoration of temples. How Muslim Ummah of India will counter act these things.

Can hindus go to court and ask for official demolishment of of above structures as they were accepted under duress.

I will appreciate if any legal person from india explain what is accepted norms?

What is position of Indian Muslim Ummah to counter act above mentioned duisputes?

Will it lead to civil war in india or is it ploy to force Muslims of India to force UCC.

These questions came to my mind after reading article and present happenings in India.

Also people from our country should express what we feel. Should pakistan get involved?

We are involved emotionally with Arab- Isrel conflit can Pakistan govt be silent observer?

Thanks.

Naqshbandi #35:

Thanks for an honest reply although many people will jump on you for this post. Apparently you have not lost your imaan despite western and scientific education and most of the Muslim interactors have never accepted the charge of losing imaan. I can point ot many many at chowk whose imaan is not lost. Losing one SameerJB once in a while among hundreds of thousands is not a bad price for western, liberal and scientific education. I am sure Muslims can throw away one bad apple from every 10 thousands or more. With so much non-Madrassah schooling and liberal education, number of blasphemy cases in Pakistani courts are less than 100. With so many newspapers coming out daily, only once a newspaper mistakenly published a letter from a foreigner and was burned down. Believe me Islam is not in any danger from few SameerJBs, it is in danger for just the oppisite reasons of too much of it, penetrating most of the private and public spheres of Muslims.

I might have been wrong in thinking that imaan meant to excel in education too, in all disciplines. It meant to prosper and succeed here and now too. It meant to have peaceful living and stable economy too.

You have gone many steps ahead of the intentions of the authors of this article. Many options have been ignored, e.g., part time madrassah which is lot more common with Muslim kids. Many parents send their children to Masjid school in the basements every Sunday for basic Islamic teachings and reading Quran.

Could you please tell us one simple advantage of becoming hafiz-e-Quran in this age of free excess of reading material vs. amount of time it takes for one to become hafiz-e-Quran. Except for Taraveeh, I don`t know of any major use of it and even now taraveehs can be conducted by imam from using computer monitors or Quran`s audio recordings. Please give serious consideration to it for the sake of your future generation.

I also read SATribune occasionally but this article (and quite a few others) confirm my impression that Chowk interActors and contributors are much more thorough in the quality of their comments and articles.

This was a fine article and the ensuing debate has also been quite interesting. Keep it up Mr.Zafar Anjum!

correction: the last reply #36:

btw these madrassahs which i am talking of and which Imam Hamza Yusuf has opened in ZAytuna are precisely teaching the same tolerant/sufi Islam which is popular in Pakistan (aka Ahle Sunnat).

Veeresh: An excellent post and optimistic as well. If only the Muslim politicians were far sighted enough to trade in their Personal Law and Haj to reservations for government jobs, their socio-economic improvement would be a reality.

Also, I did not realize, but agree that the bulk of the ``Qaum Khatrey Mein`` are Urdu speakers, same who provided fodder to Muslim League.

sameerjb: the honest answer to your question is that my parents always wanted me to go into science/medicine like most of their generation; if i could be 16 again though i would go to a madrassah without question. When I have my own children insha Allah I will make sure that at least 1 of them goes to a madrassah first before doing a wordly degree of his/her choice (if s/he wants) and i will want all of them to be hafiz of the qur`an.
why should everything be measured in terms of economic benefit? the ulama ensure that we do not lose the most precious thing of all: imaan.

my parents gen. had very strong imaan and so wanted their kids to do well in the society they came to but they did not realise that exposure to the same society would weaken the imaan of their children; the way to get it back is via these madrassahs. also i have many friends who are at such madrassahs in the UK and they go do well for themselves. many of them do another degree --eg teaching--from a western uni. after completing their madrassah educations.
i have yet to see a poor alim. people are generous to those with the knowledge of Islam and it will always be thus: i would be willing to pay someone handsomely to make my kids huffaaz eg. Allah provides for those who teach his Deen!

****
Manto:

Shaykh Hamza Yusuf is doing a great service to the Muslims of the world in general and of th USA in particular--may Allah reward him in both the worlds! You see, according to the MUslim understanding, the reason we as a Ummah are so backwards is because we have lost the knowledge of our deen and gone away from the teachings of Allah and His Messenger sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam. When we become better Muslims again Allah`s Help will surely come. Gaining traditional knowledge of the Deen via places like the Zaytuna Institute is a vital first step.

Also the noble Imam never stops people who want to from becoming doctors either etc. He himself is also a qualified nurse as well as being a top notch Islamic scholar. Out of the millions of Muslims in the USA only a tiny percentage will go on to become scholars of Islam in places like the Zaytuna Institute so your argument is not a good one. Yet these same blessed individuals will then take the light of traditional Sunni Islam/Sufism to their communities--transforming them into beacons of light for the rest of the nation. Also such moderate, traditional ulama who all have links with Sufi tariqahs (as Sufism is a core part of any traditional madrassah education) and thus help to prevent young Muslims from being lured into the extremist arms of the Wahabis.

May Allah bless Imam Hamza and all his teachers who are spreading the light of true Sunni Islam and turning people from sinners and druggies and pimps into pious and practising Muslims.

www.zaytuna.org

btw these madrassahs which i am talking of and which Imam Hamza Yusuf has opened in ZAytuna are precisely teaching the same tolerant/sufi Islam which is popular in Islam.

Manto:
How is Sir Syed looked upon in today`s Pakistani official history? How does he stand (not in your personal view but in the Pakistan Ideology view)as compared to Maudoodi.