To Kill the Mockingbird
Zafar Anjum August 5, 2003
#128 Posted by MantoLives on February 6, 2006 8:36:55 am
For an Indian with little or no sense of American history and cultural heritage, it is often very easy to confuse the Ivy League as a formal sports conference with its history and indeed the original sports league - the first college football game was between Princeton and Rutgers (Ivy till formal organization of the sports body in 1954) ...
In any event those who wish to read more about the originb
http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0101_Christians_Started_I.html
How Christians Started the Ivy League
..Columbia, William and Mary, Rutgers, Brown & UPenn
The first president of New York`s Columbia University, first known as ``King`s College,`` at one time served as a missionary to America under the English-based ``Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts.`` The Church of England established the College of William and Mary, near today`s colonial Williamsburg. Dutch Reformed revivalists founded Queen`s College (later Rutgers University) in New Jersey. Brown University originated with the Baptist churches scattered on the Atlantic seaboard. With the exception of the University of Pennsylvania, every collegiate institution founded in the colonies prior to the Revolutionary War was established by some branch of the Christian Church.
Even at UPenn, however, an evangelist played a prominent part. When Philadelphia churches denied revivalist George Whitefield access to their pulpits, forcing him to preach in the open, some of Whitefield`s admirers, among them Benjamin Franklin, decided to erect a building to accommodate the great crowds that wanted to hear him. The structure they built became the first building of what is now the University of Pennsylvania, and a statue of Whitefield stands prominently on that campus today.
Though the Ivy League schools eventually turned secular, they fed into the mainstream of society in those earlier days a great army of graduates who could claim Jesus Christ as personal Savior and Lord, and who left a strong impact on our nation. Their presidents and their faculties helped to set a high spiritual tone, and at times their campuses in turn felt the impact of revival. The educators of early America understood that the moral climate of its schools, colleges and universities would shape its future generations, and could ultimately decide the course of the nation.
Reprinted from The Rebirth of America, published by the Arthur S. DeMoss Foundation.
..
From wikipedia...
The Ivies have been competing in sports as long as intercollegiate sports have existed in the United States. Boat clubs from Harvard and Yale met in the first sporting event held between students of two U.S. colleges on Lake Winnipesaukee, New Hampshire, in 1852. As an informal football league, the Ivy League dates from 1900 when Yale took the conference championship with a 5-0 record. For many years Army (the United States Military Academy), Navy (the United States Naval Academy), and to a lesser extent Rutgers were considered members, but dropped out shortly before formal organization. For instance, Army traditionally had a rivalry with Yale, which some assert is set to resume in the next few years, and Rutgers had rivalries with Princeton and Columbia, which continue today in sports other than football
In any event those who wish to read more about the originb
http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0101_Christians_Started_I.html
How Christians Started the Ivy League
..Columbia, William and Mary, Rutgers, Brown & UPenn
The first president of New York`s Columbia University, first known as ``King`s College,`` at one time served as a missionary to America under the English-based ``Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts.`` The Church of England established the College of William and Mary, near today`s colonial Williamsburg. Dutch Reformed revivalists founded Queen`s College (later Rutgers University) in New Jersey. Brown University originated with the Baptist churches scattered on the Atlantic seaboard. With the exception of the University of Pennsylvania, every collegiate institution founded in the colonies prior to the Revolutionary War was established by some branch of the Christian Church.
Even at UPenn, however, an evangelist played a prominent part. When Philadelphia churches denied revivalist George Whitefield access to their pulpits, forcing him to preach in the open, some of Whitefield`s admirers, among them Benjamin Franklin, decided to erect a building to accommodate the great crowds that wanted to hear him. The structure they built became the first building of what is now the University of Pennsylvania, and a statue of Whitefield stands prominently on that campus today.
Though the Ivy League schools eventually turned secular, they fed into the mainstream of society in those earlier days a great army of graduates who could claim Jesus Christ as personal Savior and Lord, and who left a strong impact on our nation. Their presidents and their faculties helped to set a high spiritual tone, and at times their campuses in turn felt the impact of revival. The educators of early America understood that the moral climate of its schools, colleges and universities would shape its future generations, and could ultimately decide the course of the nation.
Reprinted from The Rebirth of America, published by the Arthur S. DeMoss Foundation.
..
From wikipedia...
The Ivies have been competing in sports as long as intercollegiate sports have existed in the United States. Boat clubs from Harvard and Yale met in the first sporting event held between students of two U.S. colleges on Lake Winnipesaukee, New Hampshire, in 1852. As an informal football league, the Ivy League dates from 1900 when Yale took the conference championship with a 5-0 record. For many years Army (the United States Military Academy), Navy (the United States Naval Academy), and to a lesser extent Rutgers were considered members, but dropped out shortly before formal organization. For instance, Army traditionally had a rivalry with Yale, which some assert is set to resume in the next few years, and Rutgers had rivalries with Princeton and Columbia, which continue today in sports other than football
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#127 Posted by rsridhar on August 9, 2003 9:16:20 pm
re:#126 by Maharana
An interesting post. The definition that Faruk gave of Hinduism can be applied to Spirituality itself.
As you rightly said, Hinduism is a broad spectrum from Tribal religion (with assorted Gods, animal sacrifices etc) to the highest form espoused in Advaita.
Advaita, as taught by Adi Sankara (and brought to light in this century by Ramana Maharishi) i believe is the pinnacle of Hindu spiritual thought. Advaita basically says that we are inseperable from God. It does not view God as seperate from humans. The jivatman (or soul inside human body) is thought of as an extension of the Paramatman. So, really speaking, we are all divine beings but are not aware because of our Ego, and the fact that we have lost touch with out inner divinity. This is symbolically described in Bible as Fall of Man (a Symbolism lost on the Christian world that has taken it to mean literally).
All the yogic sadhanas that we hear about (the Japas, various kinds of meditations etc) are attempts to establish contact with our ``inner divinity``.
Guatama became a ``buddha`` (or enlightened) when he established that contact. He was trying to wean the population of the time away from tiresome Vedic Rituals and practice of extreme self-deprivation that had come to take hold during that time. He taught a middle path. He did not speak about God directly. This fact has given rise to a lot of confusion. In a famous dialogue with one of his disciples, who asked him if God existed, he says ``Did i say that?``. The disciple, excitedly asks him ``you mean God does not exist?``, Buddha replies ``Did i say that ?``. This is a famous dialogue that has been interpreted in many ways by Buddhists and others. Buddhism became a Atheistic religion but Buddha never denied God! The reality was that, by establishing that contact with his Inner Self, he became one with God. He could say he was God himself but how was he to explain this to the novices who were just at the beginning of spiritual journey. Jesus Christ, because he was one with God, could claim he was Son of God and at other times, God himself, just like a wave in an ocean can say it is seperate from Ocean as well as a part of it.
In Advaita, i see Hinduism getting away from ritualistic process that has come to dominate it and go to the very essence of divinity. Advaita is not Hindu religion. It is the Truth.
Sridhar
An interesting post. The definition that Faruk gave of Hinduism can be applied to Spirituality itself.
As you rightly said, Hinduism is a broad spectrum from Tribal religion (with assorted Gods, animal sacrifices etc) to the highest form espoused in Advaita.
Advaita, as taught by Adi Sankara (and brought to light in this century by Ramana Maharishi) i believe is the pinnacle of Hindu spiritual thought. Advaita basically says that we are inseperable from God. It does not view God as seperate from humans. The jivatman (or soul inside human body) is thought of as an extension of the Paramatman. So, really speaking, we are all divine beings but are not aware because of our Ego, and the fact that we have lost touch with out inner divinity. This is symbolically described in Bible as Fall of Man (a Symbolism lost on the Christian world that has taken it to mean literally).
All the yogic sadhanas that we hear about (the Japas, various kinds of meditations etc) are attempts to establish contact with our ``inner divinity``.
Guatama became a ``buddha`` (or enlightened) when he established that contact. He was trying to wean the population of the time away from tiresome Vedic Rituals and practice of extreme self-deprivation that had come to take hold during that time. He taught a middle path. He did not speak about God directly. This fact has given rise to a lot of confusion. In a famous dialogue with one of his disciples, who asked him if God existed, he says ``Did i say that?``. The disciple, excitedly asks him ``you mean God does not exist?``, Buddha replies ``Did i say that ?``. This is a famous dialogue that has been interpreted in many ways by Buddhists and others. Buddhism became a Atheistic religion but Buddha never denied God! The reality was that, by establishing that contact with his Inner Self, he became one with God. He could say he was God himself but how was he to explain this to the novices who were just at the beginning of spiritual journey. Jesus Christ, because he was one with God, could claim he was Son of God and at other times, God himself, just like a wave in an ocean can say it is seperate from Ocean as well as a part of it.
In Advaita, i see Hinduism getting away from ritualistic process that has come to dominate it and go to the very essence of divinity. Advaita is not Hindu religion. It is the Truth.
Sridhar
#126 Posted by Maharana on August 9, 2003 1:46:51 pm
Faruk # 125,
It would be difficult for anyone to pinpoint any specifics about the objective of Hinduism. You can merely consider it as intellectual, moral and spiritual freedom to profess one`s desire for union with truth at best. At worst, you can consider it a collection of common people`s way of worshipping the divine in any way they want to. These may include animal sacricfice at one end of the spectrum to appease god, and a strict enquiry into self knowledge by intellectual means at the other extreme.
My ``best`` and ``worst`` are themselves subjective and you`ll find no labelling of any method being good or bad espoused anywhere in this culture. From what little i know, i may dare to summarize it as ``an enquiry of truth``. If it leads you to believe in the non-existence of god, so be it. The vice versa is true as well.
As an extension to this culture you`ll find buddhism going a step further and declaring the uselessness of finding God. Gautam Buddha was more interested in finding a way to end all human miseries in a permanent way. Hence his eightfold path to nirvana ( or freedom from earthly bondage). You`ll find the same concept in Upanishads and Bhagvad geeta, though worded differently. Instead of Nirvana you have ``Mukti``.
In the olden times at least ,our culture can be considered to be devoid of religion. Mind you, the translation of the word ``Religion`` to ``Dharma`` is a modern one. Dharma only meant social duties in earlier days. However, constant inter-mingling with the victorious muslim invaders put them in a defensive position. The muslims and christians found no sign of a god sent message of common code/ laws existing in the sub-continent. It must have been a strange situation for all communities. One falling under the camp of ``everything is known and revealed to us``, the other being `` to know it, you must seek it yourself``. IMO this intermingling of faiths produced a long and arduous journey of the locals to define themselves as well with a ``religion``. Unfortuantely, as i see it, organizing spiritual quest leads to RSS, VHP and related fools. As you yourslef well know even a fool can tell you there is nothing spiritual about them. Merely an attempt to form a cohesive and exclusionary religion.
I`ve rambled on enough. So, i`ll sign off now...
Adios
It would be difficult for anyone to pinpoint any specifics about the objective of Hinduism. You can merely consider it as intellectual, moral and spiritual freedom to profess one`s desire for union with truth at best. At worst, you can consider it a collection of common people`s way of worshipping the divine in any way they want to. These may include animal sacricfice at one end of the spectrum to appease god, and a strict enquiry into self knowledge by intellectual means at the other extreme.
My ``best`` and ``worst`` are themselves subjective and you`ll find no labelling of any method being good or bad espoused anywhere in this culture. From what little i know, i may dare to summarize it as ``an enquiry of truth``. If it leads you to believe in the non-existence of god, so be it. The vice versa is true as well.
As an extension to this culture you`ll find buddhism going a step further and declaring the uselessness of finding God. Gautam Buddha was more interested in finding a way to end all human miseries in a permanent way. Hence his eightfold path to nirvana ( or freedom from earthly bondage). You`ll find the same concept in Upanishads and Bhagvad geeta, though worded differently. Instead of Nirvana you have ``Mukti``.
In the olden times at least ,our culture can be considered to be devoid of religion. Mind you, the translation of the word ``Religion`` to ``Dharma`` is a modern one. Dharma only meant social duties in earlier days. However, constant inter-mingling with the victorious muslim invaders put them in a defensive position. The muslims and christians found no sign of a god sent message of common code/ laws existing in the sub-continent. It must have been a strange situation for all communities. One falling under the camp of ``everything is known and revealed to us``, the other being `` to know it, you must seek it yourself``. IMO this intermingling of faiths produced a long and arduous journey of the locals to define themselves as well with a ``religion``. Unfortuantely, as i see it, organizing spiritual quest leads to RSS, VHP and related fools. As you yourslef well know even a fool can tell you there is nothing spiritual about them. Merely an attempt to form a cohesive and exclusionary religion.
I`ve rambled on enough. So, i`ll sign off now...
Adios
#125 Posted by Faruk on August 8, 2003 7:10:42 am
Re : Ferozk #120
Here is a description of Hinduism that I heard from Nafisa Ali some 9 years ago and it has stayed with me. “Hinduism is the search of your god. You are free to define your god and your search. “ She elaborated that you could you could find god in nature, a sprit, a divine being, a force or something else that appeals to you or you might just find the search more spiritually satisfying.
Ajeet, Maharana any comments ?
Regards,
Faruk
Here is a description of Hinduism that I heard from Nafisa Ali some 9 years ago and it has stayed with me. “Hinduism is the search of your god. You are free to define your god and your search. “ She elaborated that you could you could find god in nature, a sprit, a divine being, a force or something else that appeals to you or you might just find the search more spiritually satisfying.
Ajeet, Maharana any comments ?
Regards,
Faruk
#124 Posted by ECHOOOOBOOOM on August 6, 2003 5:37:30 pm
Jay117
A praise for India should not be construed as an automatic indicment of Pakistan. Your greatness lies in your pathological concern for the well-being of Pakistan. My only worry is that you may not lose your health over it. Life is sacred--even yours.
Kerala is great. All of south India is great. Historians have written extensively of its virtues.
Contrasting it with Pakistan only ruins your case.
My knowledge is pathetic on many other subjects too--e.g; your pathological condition.
A praise for India should not be construed as an automatic indicment of Pakistan. Your greatness lies in your pathological concern for the well-being of Pakistan. My only worry is that you may not lose your health over it. Life is sacred--even yours.
Kerala is great. All of south India is great. Historians have written extensively of its virtues.
Contrasting it with Pakistan only ruins your case.
My knowledge is pathetic on many other subjects too--e.g; your pathological condition.
#123 Posted by Ajeet on August 6, 2003 5:37:29 pm
Ferozk, # 120
`Hinduism considers itself to be a monothestic religion because it believes in the oneness of the universe and considers all its gods to be the creation of the same universe. `
The quote that you have cited has a problem. The writer in effort to compare the world religions, has tried to compartmentalise Hinduism. You can`t compare Hinduism with any other religion, because it does not have any standard religious dogma. It is a amalgamation of hundreds of different religious philosophies often contradictory to each other. So one can read what ever one wants in this religion. Whether you are an arya smaji or jain or sanatni or many other things you are still a hindu. It would have amalgamated Islam too if Islam did not have the exclusive clauze.
So yes Hinduism can be a monothestic religion while being serving 33,00,00,000 different Gods.
`Hinduism considers itself to be a monothestic religion because it believes in the oneness of the universe and considers all its gods to be the creation of the same universe. `
The quote that you have cited has a problem. The writer in effort to compare the world religions, has tried to compartmentalise Hinduism. You can`t compare Hinduism with any other religion, because it does not have any standard religious dogma. It is a amalgamation of hundreds of different religious philosophies often contradictory to each other. So one can read what ever one wants in this religion. Whether you are an arya smaji or jain or sanatni or many other things you are still a hindu. It would have amalgamated Islam too if Islam did not have the exclusive clauze.
So yes Hinduism can be a monothestic religion while being serving 33,00,00,000 different Gods.
#122 Posted by pmishra2 on August 6, 2003 3:05:14 pm
Ferozk #120
[quote]
I came across this while reading about Hinduism, as a comparative religion, and would like any comments/feedback, which might explain this more. I am asking this, because it is a part of the history text, which I teach my students. The text book, which is an American text book for grade nine world history did not fully explain this statement. I am hoping that some can shed some more light on it, so I can explain this to my students.
[end-quote]
Feroz,
asian (e.g., taoism) and indic traditions are foundationally different from the abrahamanic religions. This is the first thing to understand. Terms like Monotheism and Polytheism arise primarily from the Abrahamanic tradition. If you look at hinduism, buddhism, jainism. sikhism etc. these terms are really not sensible. It is like trying to find where the lungs of a fish lie. These are completely different approaches to faith; indeed, I would prefer to call them faith traditions rather than religions.
Regrettably all of this has been muddled by contemporary usage. The other day I read some ignoramus refer to the Sikh ``prophets`` (i.e. Gurus). There is no such thing as a prophet in any indic tradition.
I realize this doesn`t help you much in a practical way. There are several good introductory texts now available that explain indic ways of seeing things. Diance Eck`s books on Religion are a good start (e.g. Darshan). There is also an australian hindu who has written good introductory texts that are sensitive to the native vocabulary of indic traditions. Regrettably his name escapes me at this time.
[quote]
I came across this while reading about Hinduism, as a comparative religion, and would like any comments/feedback, which might explain this more. I am asking this, because it is a part of the history text, which I teach my students. The text book, which is an American text book for grade nine world history did not fully explain this statement. I am hoping that some can shed some more light on it, so I can explain this to my students.
[end-quote]
Feroz,
asian (e.g., taoism) and indic traditions are foundationally different from the abrahamanic religions. This is the first thing to understand. Terms like Monotheism and Polytheism arise primarily from the Abrahamanic tradition. If you look at hinduism, buddhism, jainism. sikhism etc. these terms are really not sensible. It is like trying to find where the lungs of a fish lie. These are completely different approaches to faith; indeed, I would prefer to call them faith traditions rather than religions.
Regrettably all of this has been muddled by contemporary usage. The other day I read some ignoramus refer to the Sikh ``prophets`` (i.e. Gurus). There is no such thing as a prophet in any indic tradition.
I realize this doesn`t help you much in a practical way. There are several good introductory texts now available that explain indic ways of seeing things. Diance Eck`s books on Religion are a good start (e.g. Darshan). There is also an australian hindu who has written good introductory texts that are sensitive to the native vocabulary of indic traditions. Regrettably his name escapes me at this time.
#121 Posted by Maharana on August 6, 2003 1:10:03 pm
Ferozek # 120,
Reading a typical orthodox historian`s views we all might be tempted to believe that Abraham was the first monotheist in the world. Actually several cultures before that specially in India and china believed in a single divine being, be it Tao, Brahman, Purusha, Parmatman, Ishwara etc.
If I may provide a gist of some scriptures in this regard, it could be following.
Gods are not the ultimate truth in themselves, but mere symbols to aid a yogi reach the fountainhead. And further, a translation from a famous vedic saying `` Truth/God is one, yet the wise know it by many names``.
The plethora of gods is a human creation according to Sanatan dharma or bhagvada dharma (derogately called hinduism by outsiders). Actually the flavor of Hinduism is part Agnostic too. The highest human ideal as is claimed by many such sects is to seek the truth.
Which ofcourse brings to fore that, truth cannot and is not contained in merely any temple, book, etc.
So the staement that Hinduism considers itself to be a monotheistic religion is wrong. As the fact is that it is a monotheistic culture allowing people to worship the one in any form they like. Heck !! It could even be a tree.
Hope that partly satisfies your question (?) perhaps.
Adios
Reading a typical orthodox historian`s views we all might be tempted to believe that Abraham was the first monotheist in the world. Actually several cultures before that specially in India and china believed in a single divine being, be it Tao, Brahman, Purusha, Parmatman, Ishwara etc.
If I may provide a gist of some scriptures in this regard, it could be following.
Gods are not the ultimate truth in themselves, but mere symbols to aid a yogi reach the fountainhead. And further, a translation from a famous vedic saying `` Truth/God is one, yet the wise know it by many names``.
The plethora of gods is a human creation according to Sanatan dharma or bhagvada dharma (derogately called hinduism by outsiders). Actually the flavor of Hinduism is part Agnostic too. The highest human ideal as is claimed by many such sects is to seek the truth.
Which ofcourse brings to fore that, truth cannot and is not contained in merely any temple, book, etc.
So the staement that Hinduism considers itself to be a monotheistic religion is wrong. As the fact is that it is a monotheistic culture allowing people to worship the one in any form they like. Heck !! It could even be a tree.
Hope that partly satisfies your question (?) perhaps.
Adios
#120 Posted by ferozk on August 6, 2003 10:48:45 am
re: Indians
Leaving Kashmir aside for a while, I have a question and would appreciate an answer if possible.
Hinduism considers itself to be a monothestic religion because it believes in the oneness of the universe and considers all its gods to be the creation of the same universe.
I came across this while reading about Hinduism, as a comparative religion, and would like any comments/feedback, which might explain this more. I am asking this, because it is a part of the history text, which I teach my students. The text book, which is an American text book for grade nine world history did not fully explain this statement. I am hoping that some can shed some more light on it, so I can explain this to my students.
Thanks!
Ciao
Leaving Kashmir aside for a while, I have a question and would appreciate an answer if possible.
Hinduism considers itself to be a monothestic religion because it believes in the oneness of the universe and considers all its gods to be the creation of the same universe.
I came across this while reading about Hinduism, as a comparative religion, and would like any comments/feedback, which might explain this more. I am asking this, because it is a part of the history text, which I teach my students. The text book, which is an American text book for grade nine world history did not fully explain this statement. I am hoping that some can shed some more light on it, so I can explain this to my students.
Thanks!
Ciao
#119 Posted by veeresh on August 6, 2003 7:56:31 am
Your nukes, our nukes, both blow high,
At the most, 15 million die?
Together we can crank back people in that number,
With a bit of effort in a year or under.
What matters, in my opinion,
Is that, you can`t eat religion.
(Concept inspired by Ahmed Madani)
At the most, 15 million die?
Together we can crank back people in that number,
With a bit of effort in a year or under.
What matters, in my opinion,
Is that, you can`t eat religion.
(Concept inspired by Ahmed Madani)
#118 Posted by yantric on August 6, 2003 6:39:18 am
Mantolives 103
Wow !!!
I thought I had brilliant idea of where part of Indian nukes should be stored. The best place for them I joked would be in Kashmir. Because in order to take out Indian nukes you pakistanis would have to destroy the Kashmir Valley. The ``core`` problem!!!
However your contention that ISI wants to concentrate the Indian Army to nuke them is so ridiculous. Why would ISI want to concentrate the Indian Army in kashmir and then nuke them. I guess this shows how much you guys like Kashmir. If you can`t have it then nuke it.
Wow !!!
I thought I had brilliant idea of where part of Indian nukes should be stored. The best place for them I joked would be in Kashmir. Because in order to take out Indian nukes you pakistanis would have to destroy the Kashmir Valley. The ``core`` problem!!!
However your contention that ISI wants to concentrate the Indian Army to nuke them is so ridiculous. Why would ISI want to concentrate the Indian Army in kashmir and then nuke them. I guess this shows how much you guys like Kashmir. If you can`t have it then nuke it.
#117 Posted by jay on August 6, 2003 6:39:04 am
echoo # 107
Meriting Attention
Maharashtra`s Muslim Schools are claiming top scores in public exams
M. H. Lakdawala
Mumbai: Just a couple of years ago, one had to search for even one Muslim name on the merit lists. Since 1998, Muslim students are appearing regularly on the merit list in Maharashtra. They have topped in BA., Higher Secondary School Certificate (HSC) and secondary School Certificate (SSC) examinations. ``
You the pathetic has no idea about the indian education system. All muslim schools are not madrassas. They admit people of all religion. Near my place in kerala, the top most school is a muslim school, they admit students based on entrance test, only 10 percent seats are alocated based on islam. They have learned long ago that the nemae of the school depends on its productas, and all lousy students, but all muslims will do harm to the school. Almost all of the teachers are hindus, the school charges high fees which in any case most muslims cannot afford. In fact my cousins studied in that school, and the facilities are outstanding.
Meriting Attention
Maharashtra`s Muslim Schools are claiming top scores in public exams
M. H. Lakdawala
Mumbai: Just a couple of years ago, one had to search for even one Muslim name on the merit lists. Since 1998, Muslim students are appearing regularly on the merit list in Maharashtra. They have topped in BA., Higher Secondary School Certificate (HSC) and secondary School Certificate (SSC) examinations. ``
You the pathetic has no idea about the indian education system. All muslim schools are not madrassas. They admit people of all religion. Near my place in kerala, the top most school is a muslim school, they admit students based on entrance test, only 10 percent seats are alocated based on islam. They have learned long ago that the nemae of the school depends on its productas, and all lousy students, but all muslims will do harm to the school. Almost all of the teachers are hindus, the school charges high fees which in any case most muslims cannot afford. In fact my cousins studied in that school, and the facilities are outstanding.
#116 Posted by rsaxena on August 6, 2003 6:39:03 am
{Maharashtra`s Muslim Schools are claiming top scores in public exams }
...so things aren`t so bad for muslims in india after all...
...so things aren`t so bad for muslims in india after all...
#115 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on August 6, 2003 6:39:03 am
Ironman # 114
Thank you for your comment. Let us agree to disagree on this issue.
I think everyone must have a choice as to his belief. Majority of the mankind has come to this conclusion after centuries of bitter experience of exploitation of common man in the name of God or faith.
#114 Posted by ironman on August 5, 2003 10:48:04 pm
nazarhayatkhan,
``Every one has the right to have his own faith and belief``
Is that the best you can do? A giant leap of thought.
I hate to ask, but would you like to do a simple experiment. Make a list of 10 father-child pairs you know. Ask each person what their favorite color is. Count how many father-child pairs like the SAME color.
Now do the same test about their religions...and let us know what you find.
(Off course, you say, you knew this all along.)
There is NO `choice` or `right` in the matter of religion/faith/belief, my friend.
Why isn`t this obvious to you? Deep waters here?
``Every one has the right to have his own faith and belief``
Is that the best you can do? A giant leap of thought.
I hate to ask, but would you like to do a simple experiment. Make a list of 10 father-child pairs you know. Ask each person what their favorite color is. Count how many father-child pairs like the SAME color.
Now do the same test about their religions...and let us know what you find.
(Off course, you say, you knew this all along.)
There is NO `choice` or `right` in the matter of religion/faith/belief, my friend.
Why isn`t this obvious to you? Deep waters here?
#113 Posted by rsridhar on August 5, 2003 9:16:28 pm
re:#84 by soysauce
You say madrassas only fill a vaccum. That is absurd as far as madrassas in Pak are concerned. They are regularly churning out hatred filled, highly indoctrinated specimens who are taught not just Qoran but also that 72 virgins are there for their taking if they participate in Jehad. Need i post a number of articles that have been regularly appearing in International newspapers?
Sridhar
You say madrassas only fill a vaccum. That is absurd as far as madrassas in Pak are concerned. They are regularly churning out hatred filled, highly indoctrinated specimens who are taught not just Qoran but also that 72 virgins are there for their taking if they participate in Jehad. Need i post a number of articles that have been regularly appearing in International newspapers?
Sridhar
#112 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on August 5, 2003 7:35:55 pm
People can learn about the religion till cows come back as long as they keep the views to themselves:
And not try to impose them on the society.
Every one has the right to have his own faith and belief.
#111 Posted by arjun_m on August 5, 2003 4:52:31 pm
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#110 Posted by ECHOOOOBOOOM on August 5, 2003 4:26:02 pm
Maybe this helps in Reality-Check
From madressah, to Aligarh, to ShantiNikaten, to Harvard............
Dr. Abdul Huq- New President of Jamaat- e- Islami
New Delhi: Dr. Mohammad Abdul Huq has been elected the new Ameer (President) of the Jamaat-e-Islami Hind. He was elected by the 119-member Council of Representatives (Majlis-e-Numaindagan) of the Jammat at its headquarters in Markaz here on April 5. Dr Huq is more a religious scholar than an activist. He has taught religion and philosophy at universities of Viswa Bharti at Santiniketan in West Bengal, Umme Durman University in Khartoum, University of Petroleum in Dhahran and Imam Muhammad bin Saudi University in Riyadh. At the age of 72, Dr. Huq is an author of nearly a dozen books on religion, ethics, philosophy etc. Born in 1931 in Deoria district of Uttar Pradesh, Dr. Huq was educated at Jamaat’s Darsgah-e-Saanvia at Rampur, Aligarh Muslim University and Harvard University from where he received a TMS degree. Dr. Huq succeeds Maulana Sirajul Hassan who held the post for 13 years. Hassan had refused to be considered for the position for another tenure. Dr. Huq will hold the position for the next four years. Mohammad Jaafar has been retained as the general secretary (Qayyim) of the Jamaat by the new President. The Council also elected an 18-member Majlis-e-Shoora.
From madressah, to Aligarh, to ShantiNikaten, to Harvard............
Dr. Abdul Huq- New President of Jamaat- e- Islami
New Delhi: Dr. Mohammad Abdul Huq has been elected the new Ameer (President) of the Jamaat-e-Islami Hind. He was elected by the 119-member Council of Representatives (Majlis-e-Numaindagan) of the Jammat at its headquarters in Markaz here on April 5. Dr Huq is more a religious scholar than an activist. He has taught religion and philosophy at universities of Viswa Bharti at Santiniketan in West Bengal, Umme Durman University in Khartoum, University of Petroleum in Dhahran and Imam Muhammad bin Saudi University in Riyadh. At the age of 72, Dr. Huq is an author of nearly a dozen books on religion, ethics, philosophy etc. Born in 1931 in Deoria district of Uttar Pradesh, Dr. Huq was educated at Jamaat’s Darsgah-e-Saanvia at Rampur, Aligarh Muslim University and Harvard University from where he received a TMS degree. Dr. Huq succeeds Maulana Sirajul Hassan who held the post for 13 years. Hassan had refused to be considered for the position for another tenure. Dr. Huq will hold the position for the next four years. Mohammad Jaafar has been retained as the general secretary (Qayyim) of the Jamaat by the new President. The Council also elected an 18-member Majlis-e-Shoora.
#109 Posted by soysauce on August 5, 2003 3:32:40 pm
#105
Haha, weak come back.
When are you going to get yourself a life?
Haha, weak come back.
When are you going to get yourself a life?
#108 Posted by ECHOOOOBOOOM on August 5, 2003 2:55:29 pm
Back to the subject:
Further Reality-Check
In the prevailing circumstances, the presence of bin Laden in any Pakistani
madrassa is impossible,`` commented Javed Iqbal Cheema, chief of the crisis
management cell of the Interior Ministry, in response to reports that bin
Laden had taken refuge in a madrassa in Karachi. ``All Madrassas are under
the strict vigilance of not only Pakistan, but of the United States,`` he
added.
Records show that madrassa students are not widely a part of the jihad in
Kashmir. To name a few, Ghulam Abbas, Arif Hussain, Usman Atique, Mudassir
Rashid, Mehmood Riaz, Abul Asim, Mohammad Sabir Shahid Mehmood Shafqat,
Abdul Sattar, Faisal Mahmood, Sadaqat, Naweed and Niaz all died in
Indian-administered Kashmir in different skirmishes with Indian security
forces, and they were all from the regular Pakistani education system,
mostly Christian missionary schools, such as Saint Patrick`s Karachi, La
Salle Multan, Atchison Lahore, Cathedral Lahore and Saint Patrick`s Quetta,
or government high schools and colleges.
content@a... for information on our sales and syndication policies.)
Further Reality-Check
In the prevailing circumstances, the presence of bin Laden in any Pakistani
madrassa is impossible,`` commented Javed Iqbal Cheema, chief of the crisis
management cell of the Interior Ministry, in response to reports that bin
Laden had taken refuge in a madrassa in Karachi. ``All Madrassas are under
the strict vigilance of not only Pakistan, but of the United States,`` he
added.
Records show that madrassa students are not widely a part of the jihad in
Kashmir. To name a few, Ghulam Abbas, Arif Hussain, Usman Atique, Mudassir
Rashid, Mehmood Riaz, Abul Asim, Mohammad Sabir Shahid Mehmood Shafqat,
Abdul Sattar, Faisal Mahmood, Sadaqat, Naweed and Niaz all died in
Indian-administered Kashmir in different skirmishes with Indian security
forces, and they were all from the regular Pakistani education system,
mostly Christian missionary schools, such as Saint Patrick`s Karachi, La
Salle Multan, Atchison Lahore, Cathedral Lahore and Saint Patrick`s Quetta,
or government high schools and colleges.
content@a... for information on our sales and syndication policies.)
#107 Posted by ECHOOOOBOOOM on August 5, 2003 2:55:28 pm
Further in the series of Reality-Check
Meriting Attention
Maharashtra`s Muslim Schools are claiming top scores in public exams
M. H. Lakdawala
Mumbai: Just a couple of years ago, one had to search for even one Muslim name on the merit lists. Since 1998, Muslim students are appearing regularly on the merit list in Maharashtra. They have topped in BA., Higher Secondary School Certificate (HSC) and secondary School Certificate (SSC) examinations.
This year SSC results also has a number of Muslims particularly Urdu medium students in the merit list. Out of 100 students in the general category of Mumbai division, three are Muslims. Kausar Qazi Hadiya from Farooq High School, Jogeshwari, stood fifth in the general category and first in the girls’ category. S.A. Ansari of Anjuman Khairul Islam girls High School stood ninth in the general category and fourth in the girls’ category with 92 per cent marks.
#106 Posted by MantoLives on August 5, 2003 1:34:54 pm
Arjun,
Which part of ``Did I ever say I agree with or condone that strategy? I have always been critical of ISI`s stupid games, that it plays in the name of national security. Perhaps now for once you will explain to me what the point is behind repeating that statement so selectively?`` did you not understand? This is what I mean when I say poor English Comprehension skills.
`As to your plans to bleed India`
Hold on buddy ... I am not the one bleeding India, I am not the one who is sending jehadis into India. As a patriot of Pakistan and a human being, I distance myself from the actions of ISI... I think the whole idea is idiotic. I still don`t understand why you are attacking me. I find it not the bit surprising that of all the people you could have chosen, you chose me to vent out your frustration. Perhaps it is because as your own compatriot, Stuka, says in Post #73 that I am living rebuttal of the myopic views put out there by the anti-Pakistan brigade.
-Manto
Which part of ``Did I ever say I agree with or condone that strategy? I have always been critical of ISI`s stupid games, that it plays in the name of national security. Perhaps now for once you will explain to me what the point is behind repeating that statement so selectively?`` did you not understand? This is what I mean when I say poor English Comprehension skills.
`As to your plans to bleed India`
Hold on buddy ... I am not the one bleeding India, I am not the one who is sending jehadis into India. As a patriot of Pakistan and a human being, I distance myself from the actions of ISI... I think the whole idea is idiotic. I still don`t understand why you are attacking me. I find it not the bit surprising that of all the people you could have chosen, you chose me to vent out your frustration. Perhaps it is because as your own compatriot, Stuka, says in Post #73 that I am living rebuttal of the myopic views put out there by the anti-Pakistan brigade.
-Manto
#105 Posted by harimau on August 5, 2003 11:47:58 am
Ref soysauce #102
[Unkalji, judging by your constant presence here, you must be on vacation, huh?]
Better to be on a physical vacation than a mental vacation like you have been all your life.
[Unkalji, judging by your constant presence here, you must be on vacation, huh?]
Better to be on a physical vacation than a mental vacation like you have been all your life.
#104 Posted by arjun_m on August 5, 2003 11:20:46 am
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#103 Posted by MantoLives on August 5, 2003 10:38:20 am
Arjunm,
I see that you are still repeating the same old same old. I suppose by repeating the same old lies about me, you do get some satisfaction ... chalo be happy about that. Waisay does an Ivy League graduate lack English comprehension skills as well?
By the way I still maintain the ISI is not working to free Kashmir. Its strategy is to keep the Indian troops concentrated in one region where a nuclear strike would take them out all at once. Did I ever say I agree with or condone that strategy? I have always been critical of ISI`s stupid games, that it plays in the name of national security. Perhaps now for once you will explain to me what the point is behind repeating that statement so selectively? Are you trying to prove that I stand for nuking a whole region in the name of national security? Ofcourse you will not answer me, and repeat the same old a few months from now.
However I will call your bluff now that Chowk has provided us with the tools: Since you have hinted to a false accusation against my incarnation ... here is a complete record of all the Posts YLH ever made on chowk:
http://www.chowk.com/show_user_replies.cgi?membername=ylh&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1
Show me the exact post where YLH claimed that his university was Ivy league. (Don`t say you don`t have time... You`ve dug out many of his posts before when such facility wasn`t even available). The poor guy did once mention the harmless fact that Rutgers College was part of the Ivy League (a sports League) till 1954 which was made in context of the History of American College Football ... historically the very first College Football game was played between Rutgers College and Princeton in the 19th century. But I guess lying, twisting words, and making up stories seems to be the favorite past time of the anti-Pakistan brigade on these boards... especially if one can`t say anything which has an academic value... I guess these are typical Ivy League tactics eh? If you can`t beat them legit. get personal and lie about them.
No wonder the best of the chowkies are from state schools and not the Ivy League...
-Manto
I see that you are still repeating the same old same old. I suppose by repeating the same old lies about me, you do get some satisfaction ... chalo be happy about that. Waisay does an Ivy League graduate lack English comprehension skills as well?
By the way I still maintain the ISI is not working to free Kashmir. Its strategy is to keep the Indian troops concentrated in one region where a nuclear strike would take them out all at once. Did I ever say I agree with or condone that strategy? I have always been critical of ISI`s stupid games, that it plays in the name of national security. Perhaps now for once you will explain to me what the point is behind repeating that statement so selectively? Are you trying to prove that I stand for nuking a whole region in the name of national security? Ofcourse you will not answer me, and repeat the same old a few months from now.
However I will call your bluff now that Chowk has provided us with the tools: Since you have hinted to a false accusation against my incarnation ... here is a complete record of all the Posts YLH ever made on chowk:
http://www.chowk.com/show_user_replies.cgi?membername=ylh&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1
Show me the exact post where YLH claimed that his university was Ivy league. (Don`t say you don`t have time... You`ve dug out many of his posts before when such facility wasn`t even available). The poor guy did once mention the harmless fact that Rutgers College was part of the Ivy League (a sports League) till 1954 which was made in context of the History of American College Football ... historically the very first College Football game was played between Rutgers College and Princeton in the 19th century. But I guess lying, twisting words, and making up stories seems to be the favorite past time of the anti-Pakistan brigade on these boards... especially if one can`t say anything which has an academic value... I guess these are typical Ivy League tactics eh? If you can`t beat them legit. get personal and lie about them.
No wonder the best of the chowkies are from state schools and not the Ivy League...
-Manto
#102 Posted by soysauce on August 5, 2003 9:49:01 am
Harimau Iyer,
Unkalji, judging by your constant presence here, you must be on vacation, huh?
Unkalji, judging by your constant presence here, you must be on vacation, huh?
#101 Posted by harimau on August 5, 2003 9:08:24 am
Dear Naqshbandi Saheb,
You know we have had our differences but I would like you to consider this proposition and answer me.
Would it be a sacrifice acceptable to Allah for the next couple of generations of Muslims to spend their efforts not in learning the Quran but in learning the necessary science and technology that would put the Muslim nations at a par with Western nations so that they could deal with the West from a position of strength? Would not Allah recognize that these people have made a conscious and willing sacrifice of even their afterlife for the benefit of the Ummah? And then would not Allah in His infinite mercy and compassion reward these people for their sacrifice on Judgment Day?
I am speaking this as a Hindu whose religious instruction (as opposed to his religious obligations) has been minimal and who has seen the abandonment of the Hindu way of life in the last 50 years. While it may not be a direct correlation, I have also seen the improvement in the standard of living in India. Thai is what prompts my question.
You know we have had our differences but I would like you to consider this proposition and answer me.
Would it be a sacrifice acceptable to Allah for the next couple of generations of Muslims to spend their efforts not in learning the Quran but in learning the necessary science and technology that would put the Muslim nations at a par with Western nations so that they could deal with the West from a position of strength? Would not Allah recognize that these people have made a conscious and willing sacrifice of even their afterlife for the benefit of the Ummah? And then would not Allah in His infinite mercy and compassion reward these people for their sacrifice on Judgment Day?
I am speaking this as a Hindu whose religious instruction (as opposed to his religious obligations) has been minimal and who has seen the abandonment of the Hindu way of life in the last 50 years. While it may not be a direct correlation, I have also seen the improvement in the standard of living in India. Thai is what prompts my question.
#100 Posted by pmishra2 on August 5, 2003 8:41:39 am
#90 Mantolives
I do hate to bring up inconvenient matters like facts. Could you please explain to me where my posting makes reference to any India-Pak issue?
I do hate to bring up inconvenient matters like facts. Could you please explain to me where my posting makes reference to any India-Pak issue?
#99 Posted by ferozk on August 5, 2003 8:40:31 am
re: Dost-Mittar # 93
Hear! Hear! I second your motion!
Ciao
Hear! Hear! I second your motion!
Ciao
#98 Posted by harimau on August 5, 2003 7:20:38 am
Ref Mantolives #90
[... My concern is the belated arrival of the tormentors of my previous incarnation. I am sorry but I consider Arjun-m and P-Mishra the card carrying members of this brigade... ]
Out of sight, out of mind...... Sigh.......!
Harimaulives
[... My concern is the belated arrival of the tormentors of my previous incarnation. I am sorry but I consider Arjun-m and P-Mishra the card carrying members of this brigade... ]
Out of sight, out of mind...... Sigh.......!
Harimaulives
#97 Posted by harimau on August 5, 2003 7:11:43 am
Ref Maasanamuthu aka Kulamutrathuthunjiya Killivalavan #84
[Speaking for myself, most of my classmates were there because of the free meal.]
That is because for centuries your family has stolen the food from their mouths.
[You didn`t necessarily learn anything by going to school. There were exceptions of course but the quality of education that the vast majority of students get is probably no better than what madrassah students get.]
Yet you are in the US of A making big bucks. I agree with you: if they could let you in, why can`t they let madrassah-graduates in?
[Perhaps you all just want to exchage indoctrination by state with indoctrination by non-state actors.]
Hasn`t that already happened in Tamil Nadu? How many doctoral dissertations are written on the social effects of the ``literature`` of the Great Intellectual and Doctor Artist Leader? Would those be much different than a doctorate-equivalent from Al Azhar University?
[If madrassahs bother you, then you should work to have more schools with curricula that lead to productive employment.]
Do you mean you would be willing to give up your quota-based medical seat to a Muslim? That IS rich, coming from you!
[Speaking for myself, most of my classmates were there because of the free meal.]
That is because for centuries your family has stolen the food from their mouths.
[You didn`t necessarily learn anything by going to school. There were exceptions of course but the quality of education that the vast majority of students get is probably no better than what madrassah students get.]
Yet you are in the US of A making big bucks. I agree with you: if they could let you in, why can`t they let madrassah-graduates in?
[Perhaps you all just want to exchage indoctrination by state with indoctrination by non-state actors.]
Hasn`t that already happened in Tamil Nadu? How many doctoral dissertations are written on the social effects of the ``literature`` of the Great Intellectual and Doctor Artist Leader? Would those be much different than a doctorate-equivalent from Al Azhar University?
[If madrassahs bother you, then you should work to have more schools with curricula that lead to productive employment.]
Do you mean you would be willing to give up your quota-based medical seat to a Muslim? That IS rich, coming from you!
#96 Posted by ironman on August 5, 2003 7:08:51 am
#83
Naqshbandi,
You almost seem like 2 differnt people. Obviously at your current young age you don`t feel any great need for internal integration. Pursueing a career in science and mouthing medieval beliefs can co-exist without any problem within you.
Personally I think you are an intelligent person. However given that you are not anonymous (using your real name), perhaps you want to preserve your good name within your sect to persons who might be reading you at chowk. Or perhaps its simply the weight of tradition that you aren`t able to overthrow. Thats what I think of you.
As you grow older perhaps you`ll feel the need for integration.
- - - -
I don`t know if you`ve noticed, most `learned` persons of every religion seem like grumpy old men. Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, etc.
They might have a smile pasted on...but you can tell they`re all angry/depressed about something.
thx,
Naqshbandi,
You almost seem like 2 differnt people. Obviously at your current young age you don`t feel any great need for internal integration. Pursueing a career in science and mouthing medieval beliefs can co-exist without any problem within you.
Personally I think you are an intelligent person. However given that you are not anonymous (using your real name), perhaps you want to preserve your good name within your sect to persons who might be reading you at chowk. Or perhaps its simply the weight of tradition that you aren`t able to overthrow. Thats what I think of you.
As you grow older perhaps you`ll feel the need for integration.
- - - -
I don`t know if you`ve noticed, most `learned` persons of every religion seem like grumpy old men. Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, etc.
They might have a smile pasted on...but you can tell they`re all angry/depressed about something.
thx,
#95 Posted by arjun_m on August 5, 2003 7:08:51 am
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#94 Posted by harimau on August 5, 2003 7:08:49 am
Ref dost-mittar #86
[soysauce#84
I am surprised that an intelligent poster like you would make such a statement supporting Madrassahs.]
It seems to be an infectious disease on Chowk, a new WMD, that makes one mistake a$$-kissing with intelligence.
Sudalikkannu has gone through a school and curriculum not far different from a madrassah in its imparting of hatred.
[soysauce#84
I am surprised that an intelligent poster like you would make such a statement supporting Madrassahs.]
It seems to be an infectious disease on Chowk, a new WMD, that makes one mistake a$$-kissing with intelligence.
Sudalikkannu has gone through a school and curriculum not far different from a madrassah in its imparting of hatred.
#93 Posted by dost_mittar on August 5, 2003 1:59:05 am
Mantolives:
``Another meaningful debate will now be replaced with an equally pointless debate about partition.``
....only if you accept their bait!
``Another meaningful debate will now be replaced with an equally pointless debate about partition.``
....only if you accept their bait!
#92 Posted by ECHOOOOBOOOM on August 4, 2003 11:42:27 pm
This is a special for Mr. Naqshbandi
Others may peruse it as well but please understand that reading this might effect a major paradigm shift in their thought process.
For a complete introduction to Harun Yahya--a major voice today please access www.harunyahya.com
This is from one of his 192 publications. Born 1956., ankara turkey. A madressah product.
The Information Beyond Matter
& Lawh-i Mahfuz
HARUN YAHYA
Information… This concept today means a lot more than it did even a half century ago. Scientists are developing theories to define information. Social scientists speak of ``the information age.`` Information is becoming a very important concept for humanity.
The discovery of information in the origin of both the universe and life itself is what makes this concept so important in the modern world. Scientists today are realizing that the universe is formed by ``matter, energy and information,`` and this is replacing the materialistic philosophy of the nineteenth century that defined the universe as being made up entirely of ``matter and energy.``
So, what does this all mean?
Let`s explain through an example, that of DNA. All living cells function according to the genetic information in the double helix structure of DNA. Our bodies are also formed by trillions of cells each with its own DNA, and all the functions of our bodies are registered in this giant molecule. Our cells use protein codes inscribed in the DNA to produce new proteins. The information that our DNA possesses is so large that if you wanted to write it down, it would fill up 900 volumes of encyclopedias, cover-to-cover!
So what is DNA made up of? Fifty years ago, scientists would have replied that DNA is formed by nucleic acids called nucleotides and the chemical bonds holding these nucleotides together. In other words, they used to list only the material elements of the DNA. But today, scientists have a different answer: DNA is composed of atoms, molecules, chemical bonds and, most importantly, information.
It`s just like a book. We would be quite mistaken to say that a book is only made up of paper, ink and binding for, alongside these materials, it is the information that truly makes it a book. It is information which separates a volume of the Encyclopedia Britannica from a ``book`` formed by randomly arranged letters like ABICLDIXXGGSDLL. Both have paper, ink and binding, but one has information while the other does not. The source of information is the author of that book, a mind with consciousness. Therefore we can`t deny that the information in DNA was placed there by an intelligent being.
The Information Dead End of Evolutionary Theory and Materialism
The discovery of this fact has sent materialist philosophy and Darwinism, its application to the natural sciences, into a dead end, because materialist philosophy claims that all living things are formed by matter alone and that genetic information appeared somehow by ``chance.`` This is like saying that a book could be formed from a random assemblage of paper and ink.
Materialism subscribes to the theory of ``reductionism,`` which claims that information can ultimately be reduced to matter. For this reason, materialists say that there`s no need to look for any source of information besides matter. But this assertion has been proven to be in error, and even materialists have started to owe up to this truth.
One of the leading defenders of the theory of evolution, George C. Williams, pointed in a 1995 essay to the mistake of materialism (reductionism), that is, assuming everything to consist of materials:
Evolutionary biologists have failed to realize that they work with two more or less incommensurable domains: that of information and that of matter… These two domains will never be brought together in any kind of the sense usually implied by the term ``reductionism.`` …The gene is a package of information, not an object... In biology, when you`re talking about things like genes and genotypes and gene pools, you`re talking about information, not physical objective reality... This dearth of shared descriptors makes matter and information two separate domains of existence, which have to be discussed separately, in their own terms. 1
Stephen C. Meyer, a philosopher of science from the Cambridge University and who is critical of the theory of evolution as well as materialism, says in an interview:
One thing I do in classes to get this idea across the students is that I hold up two computer disks. One is loaded with software, the other one is blank. And I ask, ``What is the difference in mass between these two computer disks as a result of the difference in the information content that they possess``? And of course the answer is zero, none, there is no difference as a result of the information. That is because information is a massless quantity. Information is not a material entity.
Then how can any materialistic explanation explain its origin? How can any material cause explain its origin?... This creates a fundamental challenge to the materialistic evolutionary scenarios.
In the 19th century, we thought that there were two fundamental entities of science: Matter and energy. At the beginning of the 21st century, we now recognize that there is a third fundamental entity, and it is information. It is not reducible to matter; it is not reducible to energy. 2
All theories put forward in the twentieth century to reduce information to matter-like the random origin of life, self-organization of matter, the biological theory of evolution that has tried to explain species` genetic information through the mechanism of mutation and natural selection-have failed. Professor Phillip Johnson, a leading critic of Darwinism, wrote:
The real duality at every level of biology is the duality of matter and information. The philosophers of mind-science fail to understand the true nature of information because they assume that it is produced by a material (i.e. Darwinian) process and hence is not something fundamentally different from matter. But this is merely a prejudice that would be swept away by unbiased thinking. 3
As Johnson states, ``information is not matter, although it is imprinted on matter. It comes from elsewhere, from an intelligence....`` Dr. Werner Gitt, a director and professor at the German Federal Institute of Physics and Technology, expressed much the same thought:
A coding system always entails a nonmaterial intellectual process. A physical matter cannot produce an information code. All experiences show that every piece of creative information represents some mental effort and can be traced to a personal idea-giver who exercised his own free will, and who is endowed with an intelligent mind.... There is no known law of nature, no known process and no known sequence of events which can cause information to originate by itself in matter... 4
As we discussed above, a book is formed by paper, ink and the information it includes. The source of this information is the mind of the author.
And there is one more important point: This mind comes prior to the material elements and it decides how to use them. A book first appears in the mind of the person who will write that book. The author makes logical connections and comes up with sentences. Later, in the second stage, he gives these ideas a material form. By using a typewriter or computer, he turns the information contained within his mind into letters. Later these letters go to a printing house and they make up a book.
So here, we can reach the following conclusion: ``If matter includes information, then that material has been pre-organized by a mind possessing that information. First there was a mind, and then the owner of that mind turned that information into matter and thus created a design.``
The Mind That Existed Before Matter
Therefore, the source of the information in nature cannot be the matter itself, as the materialists claim. The source of information is not matter, but rather a supra-material Mind. This Mind existed before matter. The Mind created, shaped and organized the whole material universe.
Biology isn`t the only branch of science leading us to this conclusion. Twentieth century astronomy and physics also demonstrated the existence of an astonishing harmony and design, pointing to the existence of a Mind that existed before the universe and created it.
Israeli scientist Gerald Schroeder who studied physics and biology in universities like the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), and the author of the book The Science of God, makes some important remarks on this subject. In his new book entitled The Hidden Face of God: Science Reveals the Ultimate Truth, he explains the conclusion reached by molecular biology and quantum physics as follows:
A single consciousness, a universal wisdom, pervades the universe. The discoveries of science, those that search the quantum nature of subatomic matter, have moved us to the brink of a startling realization: all existence is the expression of this wisdom. In the laboratories we experience it as information that first physically articulated as energy and then condensed into the form of matter. Every particle, every being, from atom to human, appears to represent a level of information, of wisdom. 5
According to Schroeder, the scientific results of our age lead science and theology to meet at a common truth. This is the truth of Creation. Science is now re-discovering this truth that divine religions have actually taught to humanity for millennia.
The Lawh-i Mahfuz (The Preserved Tablet)
So far, we have looked at science`s conclusions about the universe and the origin of living things. The conclusion is that the entire universe and life itself were created using a blueprint of magnificent information that existed before.
This conclusion reached by modern science is strikingly in agreement with a secret that was laid out in the Qur`an some 14 centuries ago. In the Qur`an, a book sent to people as a guide, God announced that the Lawh-i Mahfuz (the Preserved Tablet) existed before the creation of the universe and that it furthermore explained all creation and events in the universe.
The Lawh-i Mahfuz was ``guarded`` (mahfuz) so the things written there were not changed or spoiled. In the Qur`an, this is called ``Ommu al-Kitabi`` (The Mother of the Book), ``Kitabun Hafeethun`` (All-Preserving Book), ``Kitabin Maknoonin`` (Well-Protected Book) or just the book. It is also called Kitabin min Qabli (The Book of Decrees) since it also tells of the events that humanity will face.
In many verses, God tells about the characteristics of the Lawh-i Mahfuz. First of all, there is nothing missing from this book:
The keys of the Unseen are in His possession. No one knows them but Him. He knows everything in the land and sea. No leaf falls without His knowing it. There is no seed in the darkness of the earth, and nothing moist or dry which is not in a Clear Book. (Qur`an, 6: 59)
One verse says that all life in the world is recorded in the Lawh-i Mahfuz:
There is no creature crawling on the earth or flying creature, flying on its wings, who are not communities just like yourselves —We have not omitted anything from the Book— then they will be gathered to their Lord. (Qur`an, 6: 38)
In another verse, it is stated that ``on earth and in the heavens,`` in the entire universe, all creatures and things, including the smallest speck, are known by God and recorded in the Lawh-i Mahfuz:
You do not engage in any matter or recite any of the Qur`an or do any action without Our witnessing you while you are occupied with it. Not even the smallest speck eludes your Lord, either on earth or in heaven. Nor is there anything smaller than that, or larger, which is not in a Clear Book. (Qur`an, 10: 61)
All information concerning humanity is in the Lawh-i Mahfuz, and this includes the genetic code of all people and their destinies:
Nonetheless they are amazed that a warner should have come to them from among themselves and those who disbelieve say, ``What an extraordinary thing! When we are dead and turned to dust? That would be a most unlikely return!`` We know exactly how the earth eats them away. We possess an all-preserving Book. (Qur`an, 50: 2-4)
The following verse states that God`s words in the Lawh-i Mahfuz are endless, and this is explained through an example:
If all the trees on earth were pens and all the sea, with seven more seas besides, was ink God`s words still would not run dry. God is Almighty, All-Wise. (Qur`an, 31: 27)
Conclusion
The facts that we explored in this article prove yet again that the findings of modern science confirm what religion teaches to people. The materialist dogmatism that has been imposed on science is in fact rejected by science itself.
The conclusions of modern science about information serve to objectively demonstrate who is right in a dispute that has been raging for thousands of years. This dispute has been waged between materialist thought and religion. Materialist thought claims that matter is without beginning and that nothing existed before matter. Religion, on the other hand, states that God existed before matter, and that matter is created and ruled by God`s endless knowledge.
The fact that this truth, which has been taught by divine religions - like Judaism, Christianity and Islam - since the dawn of history, has been proved by the findings of science, is an indication of the impending post-atheist age. Humanity is getting closer to realizing that God truly exists and He is the ``All-Knowing.`` Just as reminded to people in the following verse of the Holy Qur`an:
Do you not know that God knows everything in heaven and earth? That is in a Book. That is easy for God. (Qur`an, 22: 70)
Others may peruse it as well but please understand that reading this might effect a major paradigm shift in their thought process.
For a complete introduction to Harun Yahya--a major voice today please access www.harunyahya.com
This is from one of his 192 publications. Born 1956., ankara turkey. A madressah product.
The Information Beyond Matter
& Lawh-i Mahfuz
HARUN YAHYA
Information… This concept today means a lot more than it did even a half century ago. Scientists are developing theories to define information. Social scientists speak of ``the information age.`` Information is becoming a very important concept for humanity.
The discovery of information in the origin of both the universe and life itself is what makes this concept so important in the modern world. Scientists today are realizing that the universe is formed by ``matter, energy and information,`` and this is replacing the materialistic philosophy of the nineteenth century that defined the universe as being made up entirely of ``matter and energy.``
So, what does this all mean?
Let`s explain through an example, that of DNA. All living cells function according to the genetic information in the double helix structure of DNA. Our bodies are also formed by trillions of cells each with its own DNA, and all the functions of our bodies are registered in this giant molecule. Our cells use protein codes inscribed in the DNA to produce new proteins. The information that our DNA possesses is so large that if you wanted to write it down, it would fill up 900 volumes of encyclopedias, cover-to-cover!
So what is DNA made up of? Fifty years ago, scientists would have replied that DNA is formed by nucleic acids called nucleotides and the chemical bonds holding these nucleotides together. In other words, they used to list only the material elements of the DNA. But today, scientists have a different answer: DNA is composed of atoms, molecules, chemical bonds and, most importantly, information.
It`s just like a book. We would be quite mistaken to say that a book is only made up of paper, ink and binding for, alongside these materials, it is the information that truly makes it a book. It is information which separates a volume of the Encyclopedia Britannica from a ``book`` formed by randomly arranged letters like ABICLDIXXGGSDLL. Both have paper, ink and binding, but one has information while the other does not. The source of information is the author of that book, a mind with consciousness. Therefore we can`t deny that the information in DNA was placed there by an intelligent being.
The Information Dead End of Evolutionary Theory and Materialism
The discovery of this fact has sent materialist philosophy and Darwinism, its application to the natural sciences, into a dead end, because materialist philosophy claims that all living things are formed by matter alone and that genetic information appeared somehow by ``chance.`` This is like saying that a book could be formed from a random assemblage of paper and ink.
Materialism subscribes to the theory of ``reductionism,`` which claims that information can ultimately be reduced to matter. For this reason, materialists say that there`s no need to look for any source of information besides matter. But this assertion has been proven to be in error, and even materialists have started to owe up to this truth.
One of the leading defenders of the theory of evolution, George C. Williams, pointed in a 1995 essay to the mistake of materialism (reductionism), that is, assuming everything to consist of materials:
Evolutionary biologists have failed to realize that they work with two more or less incommensurable domains: that of information and that of matter… These two domains will never be brought together in any kind of the sense usually implied by the term ``reductionism.`` …The gene is a package of information, not an object... In biology, when you`re talking about things like genes and genotypes and gene pools, you`re talking about information, not physical objective reality... This dearth of shared descriptors makes matter and information two separate domains of existence, which have to be discussed separately, in their own terms. 1
Stephen C. Meyer, a philosopher of science from the Cambridge University and who is critical of the theory of evolution as well as materialism, says in an interview:
One thing I do in classes to get this idea across the students is that I hold up two computer disks. One is loaded with software, the other one is blank. And I ask, ``What is the difference in mass between these two computer disks as a result of the difference in the information content that they possess``? And of course the answer is zero, none, there is no difference as a result of the information. That is because information is a massless quantity. Information is not a material entity.
Then how can any materialistic explanation explain its origin? How can any material cause explain its origin?... This creates a fundamental challenge to the materialistic evolutionary scenarios.
In the 19th century, we thought that there were two fundamental entities of science: Matter and energy. At the beginning of the 21st century, we now recognize that there is a third fundamental entity, and it is information. It is not reducible to matter; it is not reducible to energy. 2
All theories put forward in the twentieth century to reduce information to matter-like the random origin of life, self-organization of matter, the biological theory of evolution that has tried to explain species` genetic information through the mechanism of mutation and natural selection-have failed. Professor Phillip Johnson, a leading critic of Darwinism, wrote:
The real duality at every level of biology is the duality of matter and information. The philosophers of mind-science fail to understand the true nature of information because they assume that it is produced by a material (i.e. Darwinian) process and hence is not something fundamentally different from matter. But this is merely a prejudice that would be swept away by unbiased thinking. 3
As Johnson states, ``information is not matter, although it is imprinted on matter. It comes from elsewhere, from an intelligence....`` Dr. Werner Gitt, a director and professor at the German Federal Institute of Physics and Technology, expressed much the same thought:
A coding system always entails a nonmaterial intellectual process. A physical matter cannot produce an information code. All experiences show that every piece of creative information represents some mental effort and can be traced to a personal idea-giver who exercised his own free will, and who is endowed with an intelligent mind.... There is no known law of nature, no known process and no known sequence of events which can cause information to originate by itself in matter... 4
As we discussed above, a book is formed by paper, ink and the information it includes. The source of this information is the mind of the author.
And there is one more important point: This mind comes prior to the material elements and it decides how to use them. A book first appears in the mind of the person who will write that book. The author makes logical connections and comes up with sentences. Later, in the second stage, he gives these ideas a material form. By using a typewriter or computer, he turns the information contained within his mind into letters. Later these letters go to a printing house and they make up a book.
So here, we can reach the following conclusion: ``If matter includes information, then that material has been pre-organized by a mind possessing that information. First there was a mind, and then the owner of that mind turned that information into matter and thus created a design.``
The Mind That Existed Before Matter
Therefore, the source of the information in nature cannot be the matter itself, as the materialists claim. The source of information is not matter, but rather a supra-material Mind. This Mind existed before matter. The Mind created, shaped and organized the whole material universe.
Biology isn`t the only branch of science leading us to this conclusion. Twentieth century astronomy and physics also demonstrated the existence of an astonishing harmony and design, pointing to the existence of a Mind that existed before the universe and created it.
Israeli scientist Gerald Schroeder who studied physics and biology in universities like the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), and the author of the book The Science of God, makes some important remarks on this subject. In his new book entitled The Hidden Face of God: Science Reveals the Ultimate Truth, he explains the conclusion reached by molecular biology and quantum physics as follows:
A single consciousness, a universal wisdom, pervades the universe. The discoveries of science, those that search the quantum nature of subatomic matter, have moved us to the brink of a startling realization: all existence is the expression of this wisdom. In the laboratories we experience it as information that first physically articulated as energy and then condensed into the form of matter. Every particle, every being, from atom to human, appears to represent a level of information, of wisdom. 5
According to Schroeder, the scientific results of our age lead science and theology to meet at a common truth. This is the truth of Creation. Science is now re-discovering this truth that divine religions have actually taught to humanity for millennia.
The Lawh-i Mahfuz (The Preserved Tablet)
So far, we have looked at science`s conclusions about the universe and the origin of living things. The conclusion is that the entire universe and life itself were created using a blueprint of magnificent information that existed before.
This conclusion reached by modern science is strikingly in agreement with a secret that was laid out in the Qur`an some 14 centuries ago. In the Qur`an, a book sent to people as a guide, God announced that the Lawh-i Mahfuz (the Preserved Tablet) existed before the creation of the universe and that it furthermore explained all creation and events in the universe.
The Lawh-i Mahfuz was ``guarded`` (mahfuz) so the things written there were not changed or spoiled. In the Qur`an, this is called ``Ommu al-Kitabi`` (The Mother of the Book), ``Kitabun Hafeethun`` (All-Preserving Book), ``Kitabin Maknoonin`` (Well-Protected Book) or just the book. It is also called Kitabin min Qabli (The Book of Decrees) since it also tells of the events that humanity will face.
In many verses, God tells about the characteristics of the Lawh-i Mahfuz. First of all, there is nothing missing from this book:
The keys of the Unseen are in His possession. No one knows them but Him. He knows everything in the land and sea. No leaf falls without His knowing it. There is no seed in the darkness of the earth, and nothing moist or dry which is not in a Clear Book. (Qur`an, 6: 59)
One verse says that all life in the world is recorded in the Lawh-i Mahfuz:
There is no creature crawling on the earth or flying creature, flying on its wings, who are not communities just like yourselves —We have not omitted anything from the Book— then they will be gathered to their Lord. (Qur`an, 6: 38)
In another verse, it is stated that ``on earth and in the heavens,`` in the entire universe, all creatures and things, including the smallest speck, are known by God and recorded in the Lawh-i Mahfuz:
You do not engage in any matter or recite any of the Qur`an or do any action without Our witnessing you while you are occupied with it. Not even the smallest speck eludes your Lord, either on earth or in heaven. Nor is there anything smaller than that, or larger, which is not in a Clear Book. (Qur`an, 10: 61)
All information concerning humanity is in the Lawh-i Mahfuz, and this includes the genetic code of all people and their destinies:
Nonetheless they are amazed that a warner should have come to them from among themselves and those who disbelieve say, ``What an extraordinary thing! When we are dead and turned to dust? That would be a most unlikely return!`` We know exactly how the earth eats them away. We possess an all-preserving Book. (Qur`an, 50: 2-4)
The following verse states that God`s words in the Lawh-i Mahfuz are endless, and this is explained through an example:
If all the trees on earth were pens and all the sea, with seven more seas besides, was ink God`s words still would not run dry. God is Almighty, All-Wise. (Qur`an, 31: 27)
Conclusion
The facts that we explored in this article prove yet again that the findings of modern science confirm what religion teaches to people. The materialist dogmatism that has been imposed on science is in fact rejected by science itself.
The conclusions of modern science about information serve to objectively demonstrate who is right in a dispute that has been raging for thousands of years. This dispute has been waged between materialist thought and religion. Materialist thought claims that matter is without beginning and that nothing existed before matter. Religion, on the other hand, states that God existed before matter, and that matter is created and ruled by God`s endless knowledge.
The fact that this truth, which has been taught by divine religions - like Judaism, Christianity and Islam - since the dawn of history, has been proved by the findings of science, is an indication of the impending post-atheist age. Humanity is getting closer to realizing that God truly exists and He is the ``All-Knowing.`` Just as reminded to people in the following verse of the Holy Qur`an:
Do you not know that God knows everything in heaven and earth? That is in a Book. That is easy for God. (Qur`an, 22: 70)
#91 Posted by stuka on August 4, 2003 6:16:51 pm
Manto:
``My concern is the belated arrival of the tormentors of my previous incarnation. I am sorry but I consider Arjun-m and P-Mishra the card carrying members of this brigade... it is only a matter of time before they indulge in their favorite past time. ``
I was talking about the same thing. My point is that I don`t think they have posted any such remark and more importantly this debate is not about India-Pakistan. For a change, this debate is about an issue that affects both countries. Therefore I don`t expect it to become a slanging match.
Well, at least I hope not...
``My concern is the belated arrival of the tormentors of my previous incarnation. I am sorry but I consider Arjun-m and P-Mishra the card carrying members of this brigade... it is only a matter of time before they indulge in their favorite past time. ``
I was talking about the same thing. My point is that I don`t think they have posted any such remark and more importantly this debate is not about India-Pakistan. For a change, this debate is about an issue that affects both countries. Therefore I don`t expect it to become a slanging match.
Well, at least I hope not...
#90 Posted by MantoLives on August 4, 2003 2:48:38 pm
Stuka,
I am not sure I get your post. Infact I am in total agreement as you know with the anti-Madrassah stance... I am not talking about that... My concern is the belated arrival of the tormentors of my previous incarnation. I am sorry but I consider Arjun-m and P-Mishra the card carrying members of this brigade... it is only a matter of time before they indulge in their favorite past time.
Another meaningful debate will now be replaced with an equally pointless debate about partition.
-Manto
I am not sure I get your post. Infact I am in total agreement as you know with the anti-Madrassah stance... I am not talking about that... My concern is the belated arrival of the tormentors of my previous incarnation. I am sorry but I consider Arjun-m and P-Mishra the card carrying members of this brigade... it is only a matter of time before they indulge in their favorite past time.
Another meaningful debate will now be replaced with an equally pointless debate about partition.
-Manto
#89 Posted by stuka on August 4, 2003 2:28:57 pm
Manto:
Now that the `I hate Pakistan brigade` is fully operational, We can expect this board to deteriorate in a personal mudslinging match. My solace is the vindication by Stuka in post #73
Why do you say ``hate pakistan``? Most of the posts are with regards to internal problems of Iindia ie pro versus anti Madarsa which coincidentally are also relevant to Pakistan as well.
Now that the `I hate Pakistan brigade` is fully operational, We can expect this board to deteriorate in a personal mudslinging match. My solace is the vindication by Stuka in post #73
Why do you say ``hate pakistan``? Most of the posts are with regards to internal problems of Iindia ie pro versus anti Madarsa which coincidentally are also relevant to Pakistan as well.
#88 Posted by MantoLives on August 4, 2003 1:54:47 pm
Arjun-M,
Clearly you haven`t been reading my posts then. Waisay aj I admit, Stuka took the lead in quoting the Jinnah speech I wanted to quote.
Naqshbandi,
``all those modernists you mentioned were and are considered heretics/apostates``
I am sorry to hear your views on the great muslims I mentioned... I might point out that you are right... the traditional ulema did consider all of them heretics, including Iqbal and Jinnah (who in the last years of his life got the great distinction of being `Kafir-e-Azam` or the Great Kafir according to traditional Ulema`)... given your standards i am a little disappointed that you seem to think that in his last days Jinnah gave up his heresy.
Who gave the traditional ulema the right to `takfir` anyway? Isn`t that God`s domain?
-Manto
PS: Now that the `I hate Pakistan brigade` is fully operational, We can expect this board to deteriorate in a personal mudslinging match. My solace is the vindication by Stuka in post #73
Clearly you haven`t been reading my posts then. Waisay aj I admit, Stuka took the lead in quoting the Jinnah speech I wanted to quote.
Naqshbandi,
``all those modernists you mentioned were and are considered heretics/apostates``
I am sorry to hear your views on the great muslims I mentioned... I might point out that you are right... the traditional ulema did consider all of them heretics, including Iqbal and Jinnah (who in the last years of his life got the great distinction of being `Kafir-e-Azam` or the Great Kafir according to traditional Ulema`)... given your standards i am a little disappointed that you seem to think that in his last days Jinnah gave up his heresy.
Who gave the traditional ulema the right to `takfir` anyway? Isn`t that God`s domain?
-Manto
PS: Now that the `I hate Pakistan brigade` is fully operational, We can expect this board to deteriorate in a personal mudslinging match. My solace is the vindication by Stuka in post #73
#87 Posted by stuka on August 4, 2003 1:54:46 pm
Dost Mittar: Are you sure they are two different people? Hmm. Okay, I assumed they were the same person. Even the ex-IFS chap is a Bihari.
Anyways, I was talking about the ex-IFS chap who made the call of boycott of Republic Day.
Soyasauce: Yes, it is only my personal opinion.
Keep in mind though, I am the sort of person who will oppose Madarsas in a knee jerk manner. Okay? Now, my point to Zafar was that if you want to make a good case, you have to go to those who will oppose you, not those who already support you. Therefore, if he was making the case to the Hindu middle class (which may not have much voting power but seems to be the political barometer) then bringing forth Shahbuddin`s name is not helpful. Hhe is closely identified with Shah Bano case at least in North India.
Anyways, I was talking about the ex-IFS chap who made the call of boycott of Republic Day.
Soyasauce: Yes, it is only my personal opinion.
Keep in mind though, I am the sort of person who will oppose Madarsas in a knee jerk manner. Okay? Now, my point to Zafar was that if you want to make a good case, you have to go to those who will oppose you, not those who already support you. Therefore, if he was making the case to the Hindu middle class (which may not have much voting power but seems to be the political barometer) then bringing forth Shahbuddin`s name is not helpful. Hhe is closely identified with Shah Bano case at least in North India.
#86 Posted by dost_mittar on August 4, 2003 10:55:10 am
stuka:
There are two Shahabbudins. There is Syed Shahabuddin, a former IFS officer, who runs the organ Muslim India, is involved with Muslim Law Board and is a forceful spokespersons for Muslim causes, such as Madrassa, Persona Law and Babri Masjid.
The other is a scoundrel politician of Bihar. An MP from Siwan and a close ally of Laloo and part of the Muslim-Yadav alliance, he is involved in several high profile murders and crimes and is supposed to have an army of outlaws under him. He is the one that is the subject of unbailable warrant by the Bihar police.
It is easy to mix the two.
soysauce#84
I am surprised that an intelligent poster like you would make such a statement supporting Madrassahs. As I said earlier (#57) while the govt. cannot close down Madrassahs until it provides access to quality education for everyone, it can and it must regulate and monitor what`s going on there.
There are two Shahabbudins. There is Syed Shahabuddin, a former IFS officer, who runs the organ Muslim India, is involved with Muslim Law Board and is a forceful spokespersons for Muslim causes, such as Madrassa, Persona Law and Babri Masjid.
The other is a scoundrel politician of Bihar. An MP from Siwan and a close ally of Laloo and part of the Muslim-Yadav alliance, he is involved in several high profile murders and crimes and is supposed to have an army of outlaws under him. He is the one that is the subject of unbailable warrant by the Bihar police.
It is easy to mix the two.
soysauce#84
I am surprised that an intelligent poster like you would make such a statement supporting Madrassahs. As I said earlier (#57) while the govt. cannot close down Madrassahs until it provides access to quality education for everyone, it can and it must regulate and monitor what`s going on there.
#85 Posted by soysauce on August 4, 2003 10:38:45 am
#19 Stuka
So it`s only your opinion. All right. (I don`t know punjabi, btw).
Those who are righteously condemning the proliferation of madrassahs have probably never been to a village or a village school where rote learning and memorization are what education has become. There are few facilities and, in many cases, a functioning building itself is a luxury. Speaking for myself, most of my classmates were there because of the free meal. You didn`t necessarily learn anything by going to school. There were exceptions of course but the quality of education that the vast majority of students get is probably no better than what madrassah students get.
Perhaps you all just want to exchage indoctrination by state with indoctrination by non-state actors. If madrassahs bother you, then you should work to have more schools with curricula that lead to productive employment. Madrassahs mostly fill a vacuum.
So it`s only your opinion. All right. (I don`t know punjabi, btw).
Those who are righteously condemning the proliferation of madrassahs have probably never been to a village or a village school where rote learning and memorization are what education has become. There are few facilities and, in many cases, a functioning building itself is a luxury. Speaking for myself, most of my classmates were there because of the free meal. You didn`t necessarily learn anything by going to school. There were exceptions of course but the quality of education that the vast majority of students get is probably no better than what madrassah students get.
Perhaps you all just want to exchage indoctrination by state with indoctrination by non-state actors. If madrassahs bother you, then you should work to have more schools with curricula that lead to productive employment. Madrassahs mostly fill a vacuum.
#84 Posted by arjun_m on August 4, 2003 10:38:45 am
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#83 Posted by Naqshbandi on August 4, 2003 10:03:43 am
ironman==i answered that question in detail by sameer in one of my earlier posts==please see that. also there is no traditional muslim who says that muslims can`t get a modern education either. just as not everyone in a society can be a doctor for it to function likewise not everyone can be an alim. BUT alims are necessary and the madrassahs are there to produce them. the lack of great alims is what has necessitated the creation of institutes like the Zaytuna Institute so this shortfall can be reversed. if i could be 16 again i would not go into science as a career. when i was 15/16 that is what i wanted to be. when i learned more about islam for myself via ulama and mashaikh etc. my interest in it got more and more. now i wish i had become an alim. as for my kids i will definitely encourage at least one of them to be an alim and all of them to be a huffaaz and if they all wanted to i would be happy too. i dont have any yet though...
***
manto/ylh...
in all honesty with the exception of Iqbal and JInnah at the end of his life all those modernists you mentioned were and are considered heretics/apostates by the traditional ulama of the Ahlus Sunnah. We do not need such modernists. indeed they are the problem!
Shaykh Hamza is a traditional, moderate, Sunni =Sufi scholar. (He has been initiated into the Sufi order of the great, late, Yemeni Sufi Shaykh Hadrat Sayyid Habib Ahmad Mashur al Haddad--may Allah perfume his resting place.)
There is no confrontation between learning traditional islam and learning modern scientific knowledge. For exampe another American Muslim scholar--the lebanese Shaykh HIsham Kabbani Naqshbandi is a Sufi shaykh and an great alim but he also holds a medical degree from a European University! There is no contradiction. So Muslims going to madrassahs doesn`t mean we cant have modern knowledge too but if our generation and the next generations are to maintain their traditional islamic values and aqaid then these madrassahs are vital to impart this knowledge.
***
manto/ylh...
in all honesty with the exception of Iqbal and JInnah at the end of his life all those modernists you mentioned were and are considered heretics/apostates by the traditional ulama of the Ahlus Sunnah. We do not need such modernists. indeed they are the problem!
Shaykh Hamza is a traditional, moderate, Sunni =Sufi scholar. (He has been initiated into the Sufi order of the great, late, Yemeni Sufi Shaykh Hadrat Sayyid Habib Ahmad Mashur al Haddad--may Allah perfume his resting place.)
There is no confrontation between learning traditional islam and learning modern scientific knowledge. For exampe another American Muslim scholar--the lebanese Shaykh HIsham Kabbani Naqshbandi is a Sufi shaykh and an great alim but he also holds a medical degree from a European University! There is no contradiction. So Muslims going to madrassahs doesn`t mean we cant have modern knowledge too but if our generation and the next generations are to maintain their traditional islamic values and aqaid then these madrassahs are vital to impart this knowledge.
#82 Posted by pmishra2 on August 4, 2003 9:53:26 am
Summary of Article: certain Muslim groups have a right in India to be as obscurantist as possible. They should have the right to run schools based on a curriculum which was obsolete in the 19th century. After all, a 100 years ago the schools had a positive impact on indians (for example, Rajendra Prasad). Why change a ``good`` thing? There is no need to move along and change. Also, they need to control their vote banks and what better thing to do then to isolated students starting from school. Keep in mind that in school impressionable minds might be given a broader orientation.
[begin-sarcasm]
The output of these schools will not be able to get any job in the economy. But that is their democratic right! If a few of the outputs become jihadi islamists, what can you expect? Did the society help these people by giving them jobs? See, this is all sarkari discrimination.
[end-sarcasm]
The giveway in this article is the repeated reference to the opinions of the great Syed Shahabuddin. It is rare to find a person (maybe Modi and Lallo are worse) who personifies the ugliest form of vote bank politics than this buffoon. This is a person who himself is finely educated but believes that all muslims (at least ! maybe he believes that everyone should) be kept in the 1400 century.
Here are a few of his gems from the past 20 years:
``Syed Shahabuddin and his pet theme: Islam Khatre mein Hain``
http://www.media-watch.org/articles/0299/517.html
But while it has become politically incorrect to acknowledge this, secularists
must also admit that part of the problem was the attitude of the
fundamentalists within the Muslim community. The Muslim leadership never
bothered to explain to Hindus why it regarded the right to refuse to pay
maintenance to ex-wives as being so important. Nor did it explain its
opposition to a common civil code in terms that most Hindus found reasonable.
However, no issue contributed to the Hindu backlash quite as much as the
uproar over The Satanic Verses. This was a book that the overwhelming majority
of Indian Muslims would never have read. Even those who called for a ban on
The Satanic Verses — such as Syed Shahabuddin — cheerfully admitted that not
only had they not read the book but that they had no intention of doing so.
Despite this, the government of Rajiv Gandhi, out of some misplaced sense of
secularism, immediately acceded to the demand for a ban. But even this did not
satisfy sections of the Muslim leadership. Rent-a-crowd demonstrators were
made to storm the British Deputy High Commission in Bombay, apparently on the
ground that the book had been published in England. Rallies condemning Rushdie
were held all over the country. The level of the opposition was laid bare by
the Shahi Imam’s famous sermon against ‘this perfidious Salman’, in the course
of which it became clear that he thought that Salman Rushdie and Salman
Khurshid were the same person.
+++++++++++++++++++
Here is another comment by M. J. Akbar on the AIMPLB (All India Muslim Personal Law Board) whose agenda is preservation of Sharia and otherwise death to all indians, muslim or not. Shri Shahabuddin is a guiding light of the AIMPLB. You can find this article at Asian Age (http://www.asianage.com), which for some reason has one of these eccentric URL schemes that are private to the site.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In 1972, the late Qari Mohammed Tayyab suggested the formation of a lobby group at a meeting in the seminary of Deoband. A convention was held in Mumbai on 27-28 December 1972 to establish the All-India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB), with Tayyab as the first president. It had an uncomplicated agenda: to thwart any effort to interfere, by either the government or the courts, with its interpretation of the Islamic law (or Sharia). In effect it meant that this body of clergy and like-minded politicians and activists would oppose any change, even if that change was beneficial to the community. It gave to itself veto rights on Islamic law; its continual slogan was ``Islam is in danger!``; and its mission was to herd an insecure community into a vote bank that it would deliver to those who were ready to recognise its sole spokesman role for the Indian Muslim community.
So far it has held ten all-India sessions. Its 41 executive members are not elected by Muslims, but inducted in the manner of a private club. It would be unfair to suggest that everything it has done is necessarily regressive, but it would be fair to say that this has been its broad thrust, as can only be expected of a body so heavily weighted by the influence of the clergy. Its attitude towards social reform is best summed by the position it took on family planning. It is interesting that political parties ideologically close to the Board, like the Muslim League, supported the imposition of the Emergency by Mrs Indira Gandhi in 1975. But what might be called the ``Muslim Parivar`` changed tack when Mrs Gandhi used the Emergency to push some overdue social programmes like family planning. At an extraordinary meeting held on 17-18 April 1976 the Board declared that sterilisation (nasbandi) was haram or prohibited.
In all matters of family law the Board has taken a male-oriented view. Its most dramatic success was the blackmail of an inexperienced Rajiv Gandhi over the Supreme Court decision in the Shah Bano case. The Board mobilised Muslims and forced Rajiv Gandhi to deny a poor, ageing divorcee minimal maintenance from her estranged husband. I daresay that if among Muslims only women for some reason were thieves, the Board would have demanded that their hands be cut off. However, the Board has not suggested that Muslim thieves should be awarded the Quranic punishment irrespective of how Indian law treats non-Muslim thieves. It accepts reform for thieves, but not for divorcees. I find it appalling.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
So we should understand the basic thrust of this article as reflective of the AIMPLB mindset. I completely accept that forces like VHP/RSS are unfairly targetting the muslim community.
BUT WHAT SHOULD THE RESPONSE BE? More segregration? Refusal to acknowledge that ALL indians should have some similar curriculum? That an educational system that does not teach basic job skills is outmoded and ultimately harmful to its own students?
One respondent raised the question of schools run by RSS or Christian groups being fundamentalist in orientation. You should be aware that ALL such schools emphasize performance in board exams (what does that mean about their curriculum, dunderhead??).
Recently, Somini Sengupta of the NYTimes visited one such RSS school. She found it narrow minded and somewhat backward. However, EVERY student in the school took the central board exams after standard 10. She interviewed a ``hindu fundamentalist`` student who was not very informed about muslims and other indian cultures. This student was planning to go to Law School so that he could fight for ``hindu rights``!! I will not comment any further on the difference between this fundamentalist and others. You can come to your own conclusion about an aspiration that seeks to use the tools of modern society (law!) and the organs of the state, and decide whether it is true ``fundamentalism``.
#81 Posted by MantoLives on August 4, 2003 9:53:26 am
Yantric has made some valid points... however I would also say that a large portion of the Islamic mysticism was based on the idea that God is infinite. Hence our Monotheism might well be polytheism, for if God is infinite, God is everything.... right?
Please excuse my poor command over poetry but here is a couplet from Iqbal I think:
Mujhe daboya honay nay
Agar na hota to Khuda hota
-Manto
#80 Posted by MantoLives on August 4, 2003 9:53:25 am
Infact recall the Muslim objection to the use of the word infinite by the Bush Administration... in October 2001
#79 Posted by stuka on August 4, 2003 9:53:25 am
Soyasauce:
In reference to Shahabuddin:
Shahabuddin may flee to Pak: DGP
PRANAV K CHAUDHARY
TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ MONDAY, AUGUST 04, 2003 07:30:38 PM ]
PATNA: Further tightening screws on absconding RJD MP from Bihar, Mohd Shahabuddin, the Bihar police on Monday evening sent an SOS to the police commissioners of Delhi, Mumbai, Chennai, Hyderabad and Kolkata to prevent the MP`s escape to a foreign country.
The Siwan MP is on the run after state police chief ordered his arrest in a kidnapping case a few days ago.
While apprehending that the MP might be planning to leave the country to evade arrest, Bihar Director General of Police (DGP) D P Ojha in a fax message to the police commissioners has alerted them to the MP`s plan and urged them to prevent it.
A letter has also been sent to the director general of the Central Industrial Security Force, which looks after the security at various airports, requesting him to arrest the MP if he is spotted.
The state police are in receipt of intelligence reports that the MP was on way to Pakistan via Dubai, police sources said.
In reference to Shahabuddin:
Shahabuddin may flee to Pak: DGP
PRANAV K CHAUDHARY
TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ MONDAY, AUGUST 04, 2003 07:30:38 PM ]
PATNA: Further tightening screws on absconding RJD MP from Bihar, Mohd Shahabuddin, the Bihar police on Monday evening sent an SOS to the police commissioners of Delhi, Mumbai, Chennai, Hyderabad and Kolkata to prevent the MP`s escape to a foreign country.
The Siwan MP is on the run after state police chief ordered his arrest in a kidnapping case a few days ago.
While apprehending that the MP might be planning to leave the country to evade arrest, Bihar Director General of Police (DGP) D P Ojha in a fax message to the police commissioners has alerted them to the MP`s plan and urged them to prevent it.
A letter has also been sent to the director general of the Central Industrial Security Force, which looks after the security at various airports, requesting him to arrest the MP if he is spotted.
The state police are in receipt of intelligence reports that the MP was on way to Pakistan via Dubai, police sources said.
#78 Posted by Maharana on August 4, 2003 9:53:25 am
Zafar,
Quite a lengthy article.
Why defend a medieval method of imparting education in the modern world? Don`t you think the same charities can work towards secular schools too?
Imagine a large number of people sending their kids to ashram style education and teaching them ancient books. What good would it do these kids. Their education and modernity would be anachronistic.
Adios
Quite a lengthy article.
Why defend a medieval method of imparting education in the modern world? Don`t you think the same charities can work towards secular schools too?
Imagine a large number of people sending their kids to ashram style education and teaching them ancient books. What good would it do these kids. Their education and modernity would be anachronistic.
Adios
#77 Posted by ferozk on August 4, 2003 9:22:48 am
re: Mantolives # 74
That was very well said and we have to keep this in mind all the time. Islam is a not a monolithic entity and we should resist attempts to make it one.
Ciao
That was very well said and we have to keep this in mind all the time. Islam is a not a monolithic entity and we should resist attempts to make it one.
Ciao
#76 Posted by MantoLives on August 4, 2003 8:28:46 am
Stuka 73
That is the nicest thing anyone has said about me on chowk.
-Manto
That is the nicest thing anyone has said about me on chowk.
-Manto
#75 Posted by MantoLives on August 4, 2003 7:23:07 am
Naqshbandi,
Where I agree with Rsaxena`s estimate of you, I don`t agree with his statement about you hastening your departure. I think you are man of conviction, and you shouldn`t be harrassed because of your conviction.
I wish though that you would read Sameerjb`s post once again, and I hope one day you will realize that the people that you admire like Sheikh Hamza Yusuf can hardly be termed as the friends of Muslims and Islam. With their retrogressive ideologies, they seek to undo all that the Modernist movement in Islam, speerheaded by men like Sir Syed, Iqbal, Ameer Ali, Jinnah, Namik Kemal and Mustapha Kemal, has achieved in the last 200 years.
Islam is not a stagnant faith. Why do you wish for it to become that?
-Manto
Where I agree with Rsaxena`s estimate of you, I don`t agree with his statement about you hastening your departure. I think you are man of conviction, and you shouldn`t be harrassed because of your conviction.
I wish though that you would read Sameerjb`s post once again, and I hope one day you will realize that the people that you admire like Sheikh Hamza Yusuf can hardly be termed as the friends of Muslims and Islam. With their retrogressive ideologies, they seek to undo all that the Modernist movement in Islam, speerheaded by men like Sir Syed, Iqbal, Ameer Ali, Jinnah, Namik Kemal and Mustapha Kemal, has achieved in the last 200 years.
Islam is not a stagnant faith. Why do you wish for it to become that?
-Manto
#74 Posted by ECHOOOOBOOOM on August 4, 2003 7:23:07 am
Yantra:68
Honourable Sir!
The slurs you hurl have lost their edge because of overuse. Please invent some fresh invective or revitalise the vitroil.
Destiny or Fate has never been an issue .The real worry should be to find the right astrologer. They never lie-- if you feed them the truth and pay their bill.
Honourable Sir!
The slurs you hurl have lost their edge because of overuse. Please invent some fresh invective or revitalise the vitroil.
Destiny or Fate has never been an issue .The real worry should be to find the right astrologer. They never lie-- if you feed them the truth and pay their bill.
#73 Posted by stuka on August 4, 2003 7:23:06 am
Yantric:
``Good idea of muslim mindset. ``
I find that phrase highly offensive. It is no different than equally ignorant phrases like ``cunning baniya`` or ``Hindu mentality``. How the hell do you expect 1.6 billion afherents to have one mindset? And Ii am a Hindu btw.
``Good idea of muslim mindset. ``
I find that phrase highly offensive. It is no different than equally ignorant phrases like ``cunning baniya`` or ``Hindu mentality``. How the hell do you expect 1.6 billion afherents to have one mindset? And Ii am a Hindu btw.
#72 Posted by stuka on August 4, 2003 7:23:06 am
Manto:
Thanks for some very enlightening posts. I think you are a living rebuttal to what Jay keeps spouting about Pakistan. In fact, you do not have to prove him wrong by arguing with him because your existence is enough.
Thanks for some very enlightening posts. I think you are a living rebuttal to what Jay keeps spouting about Pakistan. In fact, you do not have to prove him wrong by arguing with him because your existence is enough.
#71 Posted by MantoLives on August 4, 2003 1:28:55 am
PS: Another sad fact is that the frontier Gandhi`s successors have always allied themselves with the religious parties against mainstream national parties like the Muslim League or the Pakistan Peoples Party....
1) In 1947 the Khudai Khidmatgars were found guilty of colluding with the Fakir of Ipi.
2) In 1970, Wali Khan formed the coalition government with Maulana Fazlu`s dad, Mufti Mahmood....
3) 1977, Wali Khan and his socialist secular party was part of the PNA whose catch slogan was `Nifaz-e-Nizam-e-Mustafa`, or the creation of a truly Islamic state.
4) Right now while they sit in the opposition in the NWFP assembly ... they voted with the government on the issue of sharia.
Another twist in the history of the politics of Pakistan.
1) In 1947 the Khudai Khidmatgars were found guilty of colluding with the Fakir of Ipi.
2) In 1970, Wali Khan formed the coalition government with Maulana Fazlu`s dad, Mufti Mahmood....
3) 1977, Wali Khan and his socialist secular party was part of the PNA whose catch slogan was `Nifaz-e-Nizam-e-Mustafa`, or the creation of a truly Islamic state.
4) Right now while they sit in the opposition in the NWFP assembly ... they voted with the government on the issue of sharia.
Another twist in the history of the politics of Pakistan.
#70 Posted by MantoLives on August 4, 2003 1:28:55 am
Ooops point 2 should read in 1973 ... Wali Khan formed a coalition government with Mufti Mahmood in NWFP....
#69 Posted by yantric on August 4, 2003 12:34:40 am
Echoboom
``Unless one is afraid of such zeal and determination there is no need to worry about their `welfare`. The criteria are different. ``
Good idea of muslim mindset. What is the zeal and determination for ........ To convert rest of the world to a bedoin relgion propogated by a paedophile. And if one can`t convert then kill. If can`t kill then die in a fidayeen attack.
Yes some of us pray to many godesses.......... it is because for us God is infinity and not one. Moreover we are not intimidated by women like you guys. I guess for you they are only sex objects. For God can come in form of a woman too.
``Unless one is afraid of such zeal and determination there is no need to worry about their `welfare`. The criteria are different. ``
Good idea of muslim mindset. What is the zeal and determination for ........ To convert rest of the world to a bedoin relgion propogated by a paedophile. And if one can`t convert then kill. If can`t kill then die in a fidayeen attack.
Yes some of us pray to many godesses.......... it is because for us God is infinity and not one. Moreover we are not intimidated by women like you guys. I guess for you they are only sex objects. For God can come in form of a woman too.
#68 Posted by MantoLives on August 4, 2003 12:34:40 am
Dear Stuka,
Sorry, I misjudged your question. My bad. :) Please ignore those two statements...
Anyway, you have pretty much the basic idea. Nationstates are evolutionary... You`ve already quoted the famous Jinnah speech on this, and I quote Faiz Ahmed Faiz.. who said in 1970s that `The Pakistani nation is not the same as the Muslim nation that fought for Pakistan` suggesting basically that Pakistan is determined by the Pakistanis and not by the past. In this respect 14th August 1947 suggested a break from the past, for Muslim minority nationalism was only valid in the broader all India context (and from the looks of it exists in India today eg ‘Qaum’ ), and Pakistan was and will always be a different and completely new identity. Hence the Jinnah speech you quoted.
If only the Pakistanis could read more.
Frontier Gandhi’s loss of popularity was due to the earlier perception of being anti-Pakistan. However as soon as his successors reconciled themselves with the idea of Pakistan , they reclaimed their traditional vote bank. Maudoodi on the other hand never got any popular electoral support… infact in 1970 his party got annihilated at the polls in his life time. MMA which is an alliance of 6 religious parties, 5 of which didn’t like Maudoodi very much in the past, has only won popular support because of its anti-American stance … which explains the defeats of the Bacha Khan and his followers in NWFP.
Religious extremists like Maudoodi will always have a nuisance value. Yet god knows for what reason, the Modernist Pakistanis are scared shi-tless of them… they try and appease them… by using words like Quran and Sunnah, and no legislation repugnant to Islam, but this is only giving them the foot in the door. Had the Pakistani Constituent Assembly in 1949 paid any heed to the brilliant advice of the Hindu members from East Pakistan, and stayed the course with keeping even the hint of religion out of the constitution, Maudoodi and his followers could never have become the nuisance they became later. As in the words of one Hindu MP from East Pakistan ‘Our Posterity will condemn us for this Objectives resolution’. I am the POSTERITY. I condemn the Objectives Resolution.
-Manto
Sorry, I misjudged your question. My bad. :) Please ignore those two statements...
Anyway, you have pretty much the basic idea. Nationstates are evolutionary... You`ve already quoted the famous Jinnah speech on this, and I quote Faiz Ahmed Faiz.. who said in 1970s that `The Pakistani nation is not the same as the Muslim nation that fought for Pakistan` suggesting basically that Pakistan is determined by the Pakistanis and not by the past. In this respect 14th August 1947 suggested a break from the past, for Muslim minority nationalism was only valid in the broader all India context (and from the looks of it exists in India today eg ‘Qaum’ ), and Pakistan was and will always be a different and completely new identity. Hence the Jinnah speech you quoted.
If only the Pakistanis could read more.
Frontier Gandhi’s loss of popularity was due to the earlier perception of being anti-Pakistan. However as soon as his successors reconciled themselves with the idea of Pakistan , they reclaimed their traditional vote bank. Maudoodi on the other hand never got any popular electoral support… infact in 1970 his party got annihilated at the polls in his life time. MMA which is an alliance of 6 religious parties, 5 of which didn’t like Maudoodi very much in the past, has only won popular support because of its anti-American stance … which explains the defeats of the Bacha Khan and his followers in NWFP.
Religious extremists like Maudoodi will always have a nuisance value. Yet god knows for what reason, the Modernist Pakistanis are scared shi-tless of them… they try and appease them… by using words like Quran and Sunnah, and no legislation repugnant to Islam, but this is only giving them the foot in the door. Had the Pakistani Constituent Assembly in 1949 paid any heed to the brilliant advice of the Hindu members from East Pakistan, and stayed the course with keeping even the hint of religion out of the constitution, Maudoodi and his followers could never have become the nuisance they became later. As in the words of one Hindu MP from East Pakistan ‘Our Posterity will condemn us for this Objectives resolution’. I am the POSTERITY. I condemn the Objectives Resolution.
-Manto
#67 Posted by ferozk on August 3, 2003 11:36:32 pm
re: Stuka # 64
Concerning your question, Maudoodi`s political fortunes were given a boost by Khawja Nazimuddin, who was the Governor-General after Jinnah`s death. Nazimuddin was a religious person and he gave heed to Maudoodi`s ideas and thus, cementing his influence.
Hope this helps!
Ciao
Concerning your question, Maudoodi`s political fortunes were given a boost by Khawja Nazimuddin, who was the Governor-General after Jinnah`s death. Nazimuddin was a religious person and he gave heed to Maudoodi`s ideas and thus, cementing his influence.
Hope this helps!
Ciao
#66 Posted by stuka on August 3, 2003 9:42:38 pm
Manto:
Thanks for an informative post.
``Maudoodi by contrast doesn`t find any mention in Pakistani ideology or Pakistani History books, perhaps due to his opposition to partition which I am sure you know all about. ``
I am quite familiar with Maudoodi`s reference to the yet to be formed Pakistan as Napakistan. I am also aware of the dissonance of the Indian congress movement which was supposedly secular but chose to ally itself with the fundamentalist bloack. Gandhis mistake was his over-reliance on the Ali brothers and a backward looking Khilafat movement.
What I am unable to understand is that is Frontier Gandhi`s political standing collapsed even though he had ethnic roots in NWFP, how the hell was Maudoodi able to resurrect his political career in Pakistan. I mean, this guy did not even have a political base in the territory that went on to become Pakistan. Yet, he managed to raise his profile enough where he was a significant nuisance value to the establishment.
Thanks for an informative post.
``Maudoodi by contrast doesn`t find any mention in Pakistani ideology or Pakistani History books, perhaps due to his opposition to partition which I am sure you know all about. ``
I am quite familiar with Maudoodi`s reference to the yet to be formed Pakistan as Napakistan. I am also aware of the dissonance of the Indian congress movement which was supposedly secular but chose to ally itself with the fundamentalist bloack. Gandhis mistake was his over-reliance on the Ali brothers and a backward looking Khilafat movement.
What I am unable to understand is that is Frontier Gandhi`s political standing collapsed even though he had ethnic roots in NWFP, how the hell was Maudoodi able to resurrect his political career in Pakistan. I mean, this guy did not even have a political base in the territory that went on to become Pakistan. Yet, he managed to raise his profile enough where he was a significant nuisance value to the establishment.
#65 Posted by stuka on August 3, 2003 9:42:38 pm
Manto:
``Your question made me think that you have an exaggerated idea about the Pakistani ideology whatever that is.``
I used the phrase only to clarify that I was interested in the ``official`` rather than your personal perspective of the situation. I know you are phenomenally well read so I do believe that your personal perspective may actually be more factual than a politically expedient ``official`` view.
``Your question made me think that you have an exaggerated idea about the Pakistani ideology whatever that is.``
I used the phrase only to clarify that I was interested in the ``official`` rather than your personal perspective of the situation. I know you are phenomenally well read so I do believe that your personal perspective may actually be more factual than a politically expedient ``official`` view.
#64 Posted by stuka on August 3, 2003 9:42:38 pm
Manto:
``Hence I am a little disappointed by the question because it exhibits a certain fallacious estimate of Pakistan and its people. ``
I am sorry. Can you elucidate on this sentence. I have not understood the reference to ``fallacious estimate.``
``The problem with the official Pakistani ideology is not that it is backward or the mistress of the sharia-honking mullahs, but that it still caught up in the Muslim nationalism of the 30s and the 40s. Infact my own issue is the attempt to balance an inherent modernity with an emotional attachment to Islam which is what the Pakistani ideology is all about... not that it isn`t a noble idea, but that it has failed over and over again. The islamic portions of this ideology thus have been abused by rigid elements. Hence we should abandon it for secularism.
Hope that makes you understand my position better vis a vis the official Pakistani ideology.``
I think so though I am not sure. I think what you are saying that because Pakistan is a reality it does not need the Muslim nationalism of the 1930s and 1940s. It can carry on being a republic and ``Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to be Muslims`` as a consequence. If I have understood you correctly, I agree. If not maybe you can help bridge the gap.
``Hence I am a little disappointed by the question because it exhibits a certain fallacious estimate of Pakistan and its people. ``
I am sorry. Can you elucidate on this sentence. I have not understood the reference to ``fallacious estimate.``
``The problem with the official Pakistani ideology is not that it is backward or the mistress of the sharia-honking mullahs, but that it still caught up in the Muslim nationalism of the 30s and the 40s. Infact my own issue is the attempt to balance an inherent modernity with an emotional attachment to Islam which is what the Pakistani ideology is all about... not that it isn`t a noble idea, but that it has failed over and over again. The islamic portions of this ideology thus have been abused by rigid elements. Hence we should abandon it for secularism.
Hope that makes you understand my position better vis a vis the official Pakistani ideology.``
I think so though I am not sure. I think what you are saying that because Pakistan is a reality it does not need the Muslim nationalism of the 1930s and 1940s. It can carry on being a republic and ``Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to be Muslims`` as a consequence. If I have understood you correctly, I agree. If not maybe you can help bridge the gap.
#63 Posted by ironman on August 3, 2003 9:08:00 pm
Naqshbandi,
You haven`t answered Sameer`s main question:
How come YOU opted for an education in modern medical science and not a madarsah education? Will you send your children to the Madarsah?
Many chowkies think you are a hypocrite #1. Please answer these questions and prove them wrong.
You haven`t answered Sameer`s main question:
How come YOU opted for an education in modern medical science and not a madarsah education? Will you send your children to the Madarsah?
Many chowkies think you are a hypocrite #1. Please answer these questions and prove them wrong.
#62 Posted by shankar on August 3, 2003 8:11:15 pm
Nasbandhi,
{{Islam sees this world as a testbed for the Next World which is the real, infinite, life; in comparison this worldly life is just a dream.}}
Yes yes huzoor....I`ve heard that from you; ad nauseum.
A yr or so ago, you announced (with GREAT flourish...I might add..)
that you are concentrating your full life henceforth, to prepare for the Next World & had to wistfully bid a fond farewell to Chowk.
Well that fond farewell lasted exactly a few months...
Then you came back to Chowk with increasing vigor as the self appointed REAL muslim of Chowk (ofcourse you dont actually claim it...you just imply it, very humbly, in your sweet, informative, Islamic scholarly posts)...
I sincerely believe Almighty is so impressed by your piety that He gave you an advance visa to jannat. In fact, Allah`s miracles never cease to amaze me. I wouldnt be surprised if Allah send a pure Syed in your life`s path, who blessed you with a well placed kick in the skull. . May He continue to shower His divine benevolence on you, your future 4 loving, virtuous wives & 15 children.
Pakistan is lucky that real muslims like you are going back & reproducing at a very impressive rate (Allah`s blessings; ofcourse). Pakistan, no doubt is becoming the world magnet for real muslims (of course--some are more real muslims than others, in your egalitarian Islamic Republic...but then-- nobody`s perfect)... May Pakistan rise like a phoenix with a 150 million hafizs...that, in itself, will be more powerful than India`s dastardly nuclear bombs!
And; after all of you have made Pakistan the shining beacon of the world...you will be awarded 72 virgins in Jannat...
Man! I was THIS close to signing up; & then that outcast 12 head (may Allah bless all 12 of them) revealed that those virgins should be treated like your SISTERS!
ThankYou Allah, for not making me muslim...I could behave myself with 72 nubile ``sisters`` for maybe about 100 yrs....but for an ETERNITY!!
Wow! learning the Quran must give you guys incredible self-discipline!...
...either that or jannat has plenty of cold showers & all-you-can-eat Valium!
Thank You Allah for coming to me in 33 million shapes & forms (including the shape of a penis for Chris-sake!) ThankYou Allah for telling me that as a Hindu god; You can be mischievious & have a wicked sense of humor. ThankYou for not coming to me as an angry, shapeless, punitive though merciful parent. ThankYou for allowing me to question your word , from time to time-eventhough, I admit, I can be very wrong.
Lastly, ThanYou Allah for sparing me the fate of jannat...
I mean... I GUESS I can learn to accept celibacy & tolerate 72 nubile virgins...
but to pitch a tent next to qumquats like Nasbandhi, OBL & the Ayatollah Khoemeni..for an ETERNITY...nope...I`ll pass...NOT my idea of Heaven!
{{Islam sees this world as a testbed for the Next World which is the real, infinite, life; in comparison this worldly life is just a dream.}}
Yes yes huzoor....I`ve heard that from you; ad nauseum.
A yr or so ago, you announced (with GREAT flourish...I might add..)
that you are concentrating your full life henceforth, to prepare for the Next World & had to wistfully bid a fond farewell to Chowk.
Well that fond farewell lasted exactly a few months...
Then you came back to Chowk with increasing vigor as the self appointed REAL muslim of Chowk (ofcourse you dont actually claim it...you just imply it, very humbly, in your sweet, informative, Islamic scholarly posts)...
I sincerely believe Almighty is so impressed by your piety that He gave you an advance visa to jannat. In fact, Allah`s miracles never cease to amaze me. I wouldnt be surprised if Allah send a pure Syed in your life`s path, who blessed you with a well placed kick in the skull. . May He continue to shower His divine benevolence on you, your future 4 loving, virtuous wives & 15 children.
Pakistan is lucky that real muslims like you are going back & reproducing at a very impressive rate (Allah`s blessings; ofcourse). Pakistan, no doubt is becoming the world magnet for real muslims (of course--some are more real muslims than others, in your egalitarian Islamic Republic...but then-- nobody`s perfect)... May Pakistan rise like a phoenix with a 150 million hafizs...that, in itself, will be more powerful than India`s dastardly nuclear bombs!
And; after all of you have made Pakistan the shining beacon of the world...you will be awarded 72 virgins in Jannat...
Man! I was THIS close to signing up; & then that outcast 12 head (may Allah bless all 12 of them) revealed that those virgins should be treated like your SISTERS!
ThankYou Allah, for not making me muslim...I could behave myself with 72 nubile ``sisters`` for maybe about 100 yrs....but for an ETERNITY!!
Wow! learning the Quran must give you guys incredible self-discipline!...
...either that or jannat has plenty of cold showers & all-you-can-eat Valium!
Thank You Allah for coming to me in 33 million shapes & forms (including the shape of a penis for Chris-sake!) ThankYou Allah for telling me that as a Hindu god; You can be mischievious & have a wicked sense of humor. ThankYou for not coming to me as an angry, shapeless, punitive though merciful parent. ThankYou for allowing me to question your word , from time to time-eventhough, I admit, I can be very wrong.
Lastly, ThanYou Allah for sparing me the fate of jannat...
I mean... I GUESS I can learn to accept celibacy & tolerate 72 nubile virgins...
but to pitch a tent next to qumquats like Nasbandhi, OBL & the Ayatollah Khoemeni..for an ETERNITY...nope...I`ll pass...NOT my idea of Heaven!
#61 Posted by rsaxena on August 3, 2003 7:37:15 pm
re: naqshabandi
{Islam sees this world as a testbed for the Next World which is the real, infinite, life; in comparison this worldly life is just a dream. }
...why don`t you hasten your departure into the real, infinite life and leave this ``worldly dream``...
{Islam sees this world as a testbed for the Next World which is the real, infinite, life; in comparison this worldly life is just a dream. }
...why don`t you hasten your departure into the real, infinite life and leave this ``worldly dream``...
#60 Posted by Naqshbandi on August 3, 2003 4:28:50 pm
Sameer, you asked me to tell you the benefits of being a Hafiz?
The benefits are the innumerable blessings of Allah in this world and the next; in this world you will be rewarded for protecting [hafiz] the Word of Allah from any alterations: as Sayyid Hashmi Mian said that the existence of millions of Muslims in the world at any one time who know the whole Quran by heart letter by letter is protection of it (in case some people try to alter parts of it they do not like--which has been attempted)--and it is a part of the Qur`an`s miraculous nature that it is the only Holy Book which can be memorised totally even by kids; no hafiz of other Holy Books exist who can recite the whole Bible, for example, by heart without a single mistake.
Apart from improving one`s discipline, memory and sharpening one`s intellect, the major rewards will be in the Next World; although even in this world people pay hafiz of the Qur`an great respect throughout the Muslim world. For Muslims the expectation of the unimaginable rewards to come from Allah in the Next World are what really matter. On that Day Huffaaz will be the winners.
In short the primary reasons Muslims do something should be for the pleasure of Allah and this leads to promised rewards in the Next World and as the blessing of such activities Allah blesses us with rewards in this world too if He wills but the main focus is for Next World.
Islam sees this world as a testbed for the Next World which is the real, infinite, life; in comparison this worldly life is just a dream.
The benefits are the innumerable blessings of Allah in this world and the next; in this world you will be rewarded for protecting [hafiz] the Word of Allah from any alterations: as Sayyid Hashmi Mian said that the existence of millions of Muslims in the world at any one time who know the whole Quran by heart letter by letter is protection of it (in case some people try to alter parts of it they do not like--which has been attempted)--and it is a part of the Qur`an`s miraculous nature that it is the only Holy Book which can be memorised totally even by kids; no hafiz of other Holy Books exist who can recite the whole Bible, for example, by heart without a single mistake.
Apart from improving one`s discipline, memory and sharpening one`s intellect, the major rewards will be in the Next World; although even in this world people pay hafiz of the Qur`an great respect throughout the Muslim world. For Muslims the expectation of the unimaginable rewards to come from Allah in the Next World are what really matter. On that Day Huffaaz will be the winners.
In short the primary reasons Muslims do something should be for the pleasure of Allah and this leads to promised rewards in the Next World and as the blessing of such activities Allah blesses us with rewards in this world too if He wills but the main focus is for Next World.
Islam sees this world as a testbed for the Next World which is the real, infinite, life; in comparison this worldly life is just a dream.
#59 Posted by tenaliramanna on August 3, 2003 12:18:28 pm
Muslim employment and representation or massacres of Muslims......
Wonder what they say about conversions and massacre of Kafirs ?
but by no stretch of imagination are they pro-Pakistan or anti-India
Clever twist of words eh ? Are they ``pro-ummah`` or ``pro-shariat``(Vs the Indian consitution) or ``anti-kafir`` ?? Wouldn`t this put them into a ``anti-india`` bucket - atleast to some extent ?
There might be a few small Madarsahs along the India-Nepal border, which, unknown to them, have been used by Pakistani agencies for their own purposes, but if this is at all the case these must be very small in number.
Holy Cow/Pig.......so they are extremely innocent and if the fault is to put on anyobody`s door step, it`s the ISI or the Indian Govt !!!
as there is no evidence of Indian Madarsahs having anything to do with their counterparts across the border, or for that sake, even their counterparts within the country.
So Madrasahs are water tight compartments.....and they have nothing to do with each other - fine. Do they have something to do with the Masjids at all ? And the Masjids of the world have Rabid imams (UK, Indonesia, Pak, India etc etc and etc) and sure they leave Madrasahs alone. Since you said it and since nothing is to be questioned we take it that Madrasahs are the best places to send one`s kid to.
“The railway ministry has withdrawn concessions to our students`` says the maulana.
Sorry, but even this has not made them join a Govt school. No school in your area ? Well how about a Shah bano type agitation to get some schools in Muslim colonies that teach primary education @ a nominal fees or without it ? Religion can be taught an hour after school or on the weekends. Nah, Islam/Qaum Khatrein mein hain. And that stupid Syed Shahbuddin will see this as a ploy to breaks Indian Muslim`s backbone. Zafar & Co will write a Phd Thesis proving him. Sucks big time............
We assure Maulana Zubair and come out of the seminary. He escorts us till we finally depart from the place. We have the feeling that we have come out of an orphanage. We wonder: If these people had a little more money, they would eat better food and perhaps buy some more books, and surely some notebooks too. If you don’t believe this, go see for yourself.
Would you please compare a ``Hindu Orphanage`` Or ``any Orphanage`` with a ``Muslim Orphanage`` and write an article on what`s different ? How much time is spent on ``Islamisation`` Vs ``Skills to earn a livelihood`` in these orgns ?
(We visited the Jamia Arabia Shamsul Uloom on Sunday, April 6, 2003)
A visit to one = Character profile of ALL Madrasahs ????? Yes Sir, what next ?
and the increased mistrust [3] against the curricula of government schools, Madarsahs are often the only available educational option for children from poor Muslim families,
Mistrust against curricula ???? et tu Zafar ??? This is pathetic to say the least