Gujarat, Madrasas and Other Things

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re:#158 by HisExcellency
``As a Pakistani, I admire Jinnah for foreseeing the communalization of India politics 58 years ago. Jinnah saved us from the RSS. Now we must save ourselves from the MMA. ``
Your scotch drinking, highly westernised Jinnah did not foresee that Pakistan will break up in just 25 years. You guys continue to call what is left of Pakistan as ``Pakistan`` despite the factor that more than 50% of population and 40% of landmass seceded. Jinnah`s ``moth-eaten Pakistan`` does not exist anymore. It is a different kind of Pakistan. Only the name exists. Everything else is different.
Jinnah did not foresee a Pakistan that would become a center of IT, IT meaning ``International Terrorism`` not ``Information Technology``.

The following is an article from an Indian website that details the role of Pakistan in Terrorism, particularly directed against US. Why should i bother? Because i live in US and US is a liberal democracy. Read on. If you do not have the patience, just read the Tables 1 to 3 and the summary. It is well researched. Counter the arguments logically, and not by some crap about what Jinnah envisioned.
Url:
http://216.109.117.135/search/cache?p=Pakistani+terrorism&ei=UTF-8&vm=i&n=20&fl=0&url=maC8EmQ4besJ:terrorism.reallybites.com/TSP911.pdf

US is very much aware of all this but thinks Paki dictator serves a useful purpose. The fight agains terrorism is much more difficult without Paki army`s co-operation. But questions are being asked in the US House of Representative. The following is dated but still relevant. Read what Peter Deutsch, member of House of Representatives from Florida, has to say:
(http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1994_cr/pd_cong_speech.html)

``Mr. Speaker, I am shocked to see reports detailing the
extensive involvement of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan in supporting
Islamic fundamentalist terror groups in Afghanistan and India. I have seen
Peter Arnett`s excellent documentary ``Terror Nation? U.S. Creation?``
shown on CNN last month. The film provides a graphic account of the links
between the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and the fundamentalist regime of
Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. I was disturbed to note that some Afghan groups that
have had close affiliation with Pakistani Intelligence are believed to have
been involved in the New York World Trade Center bombings.

Following an investigation, Peter Arnett reports about the New York
bombing, ``It happened at this apartment complex. Police at the well-patroled
community say the Skeikh`s Driver, Mahmud Aboubalima was Shalabi`s most
frequent visitor. Police consider Aboubalima their prime suspect. He is the
second person from the Afghan Refuge Center implicated in a U.S. crime. But
he has not been charged. Shalabi`s family blames Sheikh Rahman for the
killing, a charge a cleric denies. With Shalabi gone, Aboubalima takes
control of the Afghan Refugee Center. Aboubalima, Sheikh Rahman and Hampton
El were bound together not only by the Brooklyn-based Afghan Center, but also
by the holy war headquarters in Peshawar, Pakistan, the bustling base of
operations for the Afghan resistance. It is in Peshawar that the New York
terror campaign takes shape. Peshawar was the headquarters of Sheikh Rahman`s
international network. Peshawar was also the headquarters of Gulbuddin
Hekmatyar`s party, which trained four of the key New York suspects.
Hekmatyar`s links to the New York suspects came as no surprise to pro-Western
afghan officials. They officially warned the U.S. government about Hekmatyar
no fewer than four times. The last warning delivered just days before the
Trade Center attack.``

Speaking to former CIA Director Robert Gates, about Gulbuddin Hekmatyar,
Peter Arnett reports, ``The Pakistanis showered Gulbuddin Hekmatyar with U.S.
provided weapons and sang his praises to the CIA. They had close ties with
Hakmatyar going back to the mid-1970`s. Hekmatyar`s Islamic fervor played
well with the fundamentalist powers of Pakistan.``

Mr. Speaker, I have now come across a report in the Washington Post of
September 12th from Karachi, Pakistan, which states that: ``Pakistan`s army
chief and head of its intelligence agency proposed a detailed `blueprint` for
selling heroin to pay for the country`s covert military operations in early
1991, according to former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif.`` The report provides
considerable detail on the degree to which Pakistan`s military leaders have
been involved in their pursuit of an Islamic nuclear bomb and export of
fundamentalism into India. It says, ``It has been rumored for years that
Pakistan`s military has been involved in the drug trade. Pakistan`s army, and
particularly its intelligence agency (the equivalent of the CIA) is immensely
powerful and is known for pursuing its own agenda. Over the years, civilian
political leaders have accused the military (which has run Pakistan for more
than half of its 47 years of independence) of developing the country`s
nuclear technology and arming insurgents in India and other countries without
civilian knowledge or approval and sometimes in direct violation of civilian
orders. Historically, the army`s chief of staff has been the most powerful
person in the country.``

The significance of these reports at a time when India`s investigative
agencies are discovering growing evidence of Pakistani involvement in the
heinous bombings in Bombay last March can not be under estimated. A prime
suspect in the bombings has recently been arrested with documents
including a passport, driving license and birth certificate provided to him by
the same intelligence organization. The use of drug money by the intelligence
services of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan for bringing the destabalizing
effects of fundamentalism into Afghanistan and India can not be condoned. The
Administration should investigate these reports with full vigor and share its
findings with the Members of the House.``

Pakis also have to worry about their army. Army has taken over every aspect of civilian life. Perhaps most Pakis do not think this is a big deal. Their Army, which has lost all the wars it has fought so far with India, is grabbing everything in its own country that it could not grab from India. It is now involved in every aspect of civilian life in Pakistan. Listen to what Pakis and others have to say about Paki army:

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/20001111.htm (by Irfaan Hussain)
Excerpts:
``It is a fact that the army is the most organized and efficient sector in the country where its own clearly defined duties and responsibilities lie. However, General Musharraf and his colleagues must also realize that they simply do not have the training or the expertise to cure the many ills (some of them caused by their predecessors) that face Pakistan today. Just take the example of the mess our power supplies are in: despite inducting officers and jawans at every level, WAPDA and KESC remain organizational and financial nightmares. Similarly, attaching battalions of retired and serving officers to civilian departments has in no way enhanced efficiency. The only change is that decision-making, never very swift, has slowed down even further. ``

``It is about time the army learned that ultimately, it has no solutions to offer, no magic wand to correct all that is wrong with the country. The only solution lies in strengthening civil society and supporting democratic institutions. There are no shortcuts, no panaceas. By constantly meddling in politics, the army not only weakens the system, it ultimately weakens itself. In this day and age, a military government is anathema to much of the world. In Pakistan`s context of looming bankruptcy, this translates into a drastic drop in economic assistance and private investment.``

John Lancaster`s article, published in SATribune, says: (http://www.satribune.com/archives/dec02_08_02/opinion_wpostarticle.htm)
``There is no denying the military`s dominant role in Pakistan. The military owns the best farmland and several of the largest industrial conglomerates. Retired or active-duty military officers run the ports, postal service, electric utilities, sports federations, telecommunications authority, culture ministry, mineral development agency, anti-drug police, railroads, civil aviation authority, national shipping company and Pakistan`s biggest steel mill. They hold top administrative posts at the best universities. Many ambassadors are retired officers.``

``The military`s primacy is reflected in the national budget, about 22 percent of which goes for defense, compared with 16 percent in the United States and 15 percent in India, according to the CIA World Factbook. The high proportion of defense spending has come at the expense of social programs in this impoverished nation of 147 million, which spends 42 percent less per capita on health care than other countries at the same income level, according to the World Bank.``

``Under an arcane point-based system that dates to the British Raj, the military also rewards its senior officers by allowing them to purchase agricultural and urban land from the army`s vast inventory of real estate at prices far below market value. A number of these properties are grouped into ``defense societies`` in tony suburbs of Karachi and other major cities. The societies are administered by the Defense Housing Authority, which ensures the provision of municipal services. Officers who acquire such land often develop it as rental property or sell it for hefty profits.``
Army`s land grabbing is well known. The Paki billionare list (unofficial of course!) consists almost all of ex-Generals and Army officers. No doubt these fine gentleman have been doing great service to their nation.

So, there are problems galore for Pakistan. Some serious political thinkers do not think that Pakistan as a viable entity can survive beyond the next 2 decades or so. MMA is least of its problems.

Sridhar

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re:#156 by Honorable_Syed
Thanks for the info on Hindu mythology. We read it as kids. Nothing new. Indra`s sexual escapades are well known. So are Zeus` (the Greek God). What is your point? You seem to confuse mythology, religion and spirituality. Curious onlookers or new arrivers are often bewildered. All the 3 (mythology, spirituality, religion) are sometimes seem closely linked but are not. That is why serious practitioners and religious hindus take what these stories have to offer and discard the rest. These stories make good TV serials though. What these stories end up saying is how even the Gods fell from Grace now and then and suffered in consequence.
Good thing you have started reading Hindu mythology. It may make you a better mullah, who knows!
sridhar

re:#155 by Urstruly
Hindus are not trying to turn India into a Hindu nation. Some Hindus are. I hope you notice the difference. If you are an honest person, you would also appreciate the difference.
May be this is asking too much from you. But just look at the Babri Masjid issue alone. If all Hindus had decided that India should be a Hindu nation, where is the controversy then? There would have been a Hindu temple at that site by now. Court has ruled that the area should be dug up and archeologists would determine what the reality is. I think that is reasonable. When 2 communities cannot agree, they have to depend on scientific evidence. But the issue is still being debated. BTW, the lawyer defending the muslims in this case is a hindu. If muslims alone were fighting this issue, believe me, they do not stand a chance. They have no credible representation anywhere at all in India. They are not powerful like some other minorities (eg Parsees) are.
Sridhar

re: #106 by harimau
A nice post.

``Even when they have done several years of Sanskrit as a language, they still do not understand because the Vedas they learn are in archaic Sanskrit not easily understood except through specialized studies. The emphasis in religious instruction is on getting the words and the tones and the rituals right, forget about the meaning.``
If i may take the liberty of explaining the above a little further, i would have put things in a better perspective.
Few people today can speak a conversational sanskrit. A large number can still understand simple sanskrit (i would like to believe i am one of them!). Vedas, as Harimau rightly said, are in archaic sanskrit. But to vedic seers, more important than the meaning (at least to my understanding) was the way vedas were rendered in their original pristine form. They went to an elaborate length to preserve the tone, cadence and how each word should be emphasised, where to pause etc. If you go to Tirupathi, there is still one such school with unbroken oral tradition for thousands of years. There are handful of such schools in India today preserving an ancient and sacred tradition (sacred not just to brahmins but to hindus in general). To brahmins alone (by their professional nature) fell the responsiblity of preserving the texts. Even when writing came to be used (first on palm leaves, then on scroll etc), oral traditions were continued as far as vedas were concerned as it was deemed important to continuity the original nature of text without corruption (some corruption is inevitable in written texts). Hence, so much emphasis on wrote memory and not so much on the meaning. I doubt if more than a handful of people in India know the real meaning of each word in the vedas.
``So, what is the answer? Maybe as somebody suggested, we kill off all the RSS/Bajrang Dal/VHP people. Then we will also have to do the same thing to the Muslim League and all those Muslim groups at Aligarh Muslim University and other places. Or, we can all try and get every backward person, be it Muslims or Hindus, into the mainstream by trying to get them educated./civilized:
Agreed. The only way i believe is by gradual empowerment thr` a political process. This should not become a violent struggle or jehad of any kind. Muslims, like any other minorities in India, should educate themselves about their rights and exercise them wisely. It is heartening to note that, by careful alliances with other groups, muslims in India are already casting their votes in a way that would benefit them.
Sridhar

M_Souza:

``...Another opinion I have formed after coming to chowk...my dislike for Islam has increased so much. Before this I considered it just another religion of India.... ``

I went through a similar experience. After coming to the states, my dislike for militant Hinduism has increased a lot. Before I was cool about it. The dislike for militant Islam was always there.

Seriously though, whose Islam do you dislike? UrsTtruly`s or TAhmed`s? The two claim to be both Muslims but appear to be adherents of two different religions.

The biggest problem with Hindus and Hinduism is the fact that they can`t comprehend an egalitarian, multiracial and mutliethnic society. And it is wrong to blame them for this, because all what they have seen and learnt from their religion is divide between humans based upon race, color of skin, ethincity, etc. When the Muslims came to India they brought with them a religion which taught exactly this, equality among all humans as we are all the son of Adam and not the result of a fart from Brahma which Hindu mythology preaches (and wallah this is not a joke). The hindus can`t comprehend the idea of a Prince marrying a woman from Africa ( as in the case of several Saudi royal family members, most notable Prince Bandar). There is a sense of an inferiority complex amongst the hindus, and thats why some resort to reminding the ``so called`` (regardless of how outrageous and incorrect the contention) hindu converts of their dark past, because they can`t understand the logic of all of us being the son of Adam. The hindus have to realize why the invaders and the missionaries are able to convince the lower caste hindus to renounce their religion and embrace Islam.

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#164 by m_souza on June 4, 2003 10:02pm PT


Yes I can imagine Urstruly getting nightmares because of this bashing.

...You never know what might happen tomorrow. Hindus may mutate (relgiously speaking)and turn into muslims while those participating in this board being the only ones left to defend hindu religon....Just a thought.. after all hindu religion abandoned may things so this may not be so far fetched ... I dont think that hon_syed will be responsible for it though Hindu religon is intrinsicly capable of making the change.. Think about it.

#154 by harish_hyd on June 4, 2003 8:46am PT

that wasnt a conspiracy theory just a possiblity of what might happen not to a muslim but to a hindu.

YOu mean that bush and millons of americans can belive the theories of WMD, abiity to launch biolgical attack in 45 minutes(when Iraq couldnt even fly its own planes in its own airspace)or the idea that Sadddam who we were told did not spend even one night in the same place could attack US with Nuclear weapons on US shore.

Those according to you were not conspiracy theories.

But here is the Mother of all conspiracy theories read it.

SPENGLER
Neo-cons in a religious bind


http://atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/EF05Aa02.html

...The neo-conservatives are a front for Islamism. Outrageous as this claim may sound, I will prove it with citations from publicly available sources...


...It turns out that Judaism is not strictly monotheistic, while Islam is. Judaism lacks a hard line in its prohibition of idolatry, but Islam offers such a hard line. What could the Islamists say more? Is that not prima facie evidence that Islamism lurks at the heart of the neo-conservative cabal in Washington? Am I demanding too great a stretch of the imagination from the reader? My reasoning is no less circuitous than that of the commentators who claim to have discovered a Straussian conspiracy. If the Straussians can be said to have taken over Washington, why not the Islamists? ....

Have fun..

#162 by m_souza on June 4, 2003 10:02pm PT

...Another opinion I have formed after coming to chowk...my dislike for Islam has increased so much. Before this I considered it just another religion of India....

Lets see if I understand you correctly your dislike of Islam has increased so much, ie. it was present earlier and has only now increased... and before that you considered it just another religion of India(and nothing else) and yet you disliked it...

hmmm..

Ali 87,

My indignation is about the ilks of farzana and now zarine who talk adnoseum about babri masjid and gujarat killings, but never mentions that muslims are also killing hindus as in marad in kerala last month. They never talk about the thousand of mosques built in india in tha lest decade. These senseless blikered individuals joins the pakistanis, and nevr dare to ask have any of the muslims killed by the ahmadias, the other religionists, has any temple been built in the last fidty years in pakistan, how many temples were destryed in what the pakistanis call as response to babri masjid.
The ilks of farzana nd zarine are disgrace to any one believing any objectivity in their alliance with the pakistanis.