Gujarat, Madrasas and Other Things

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#152 by rsaxena on June 4, 2003 8:46am PT
re: #146

...in urstruly`s case, he does not mind that his forefathers had swords shove up in every crevice to get converted...now he dances around as if he is one of the invaders....it`s all too comical...
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I agree...that is the tragedy or comedy of the whole situation in the sub-continent.
I have come across muslims of countries other than India, pak, B`desh ..and none of them..not even the Arabics, Iraqis or any other is as much against India or Hinduism as are `our own converted people`. Maybe that weird `Naipaulish` judgement in `Beyond belief` is true after all.
To belong totally to the new relgion(or anything), one has to constantly keep pushing and abhoring the previous deserted one. Otherwise, there ia a risk of taking a back turn to where u started from..

#156 by Honorable_Syed on June 4, 2003 9:05am PT

I didn`t have the patience to go through your boring post. Do tell where did you get this information? I have never read all this extremely ancient mythical history..almost like some `bhoot-pret` jaadoo story...

So if you laugh at all this..so do we..nothing great about it...

But I have read the spiritual hinduism and there is so much depth in it. I have also read books on other relgions and while Buddhism is very peace-loving, has a lot..a lot similar to Hindusim...Jainism too has overlapping stuff with hindusim..
..Sikhism, a prominent religion of my state..I know it `in and out`..the origins and teh text, the philosophy in it.....it is kind of refined Hindusim(I am a punjabi-hindu and have very few sikhs in my distant family/cousins)..All these religions are not opinionated, arrogant..
But all these religions do not have what Islam has. Now what is that ?

In Islam which is a recorded history...the very prophet who is so close to your hearts was a adult man when he married a 9 year old.. and this is a modern time relgion. Do all 40 year old muslims marry 9 year old girls??

Then why do you think Hindus do what the mythical Indra did..
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Another opinion I have formed after coming to chowk...my dislike for Islam has increased so much. Before this I considered it just another religion of India..now after reading these honerable_Syeds(muslim brahmans) and all...I am not sure

And how much I am crazy about my religion is one thing.
But now..I am very sure what I think about Islam. Now I believe and agree with what most fo the Australins say abusively about muslims in their talk-back radios..and in the newspapers...

ali87 #159 You are too modest. Of course you have a writing style. Everyone does. Just as everyone has a shadow. Actually, I can get long-winded myself, so I guess I shouldnt be talking anyway.

I am glad you like me. I knew you were a real smart chap, a deeply perceptive individual who could tell wheat from chaff on chowk. I have my doubts about some shady characters like this Honorable Syed and His Excellency (actually, I have yet to read his posts). What will we get next: His Majesty the King? or perhaps Deputy to the Lord? or God? Anyway, have fun annoying the hell out of whoever you can on chowk.

#159 by ali87 on June 4, 2003 1:59pm PT
#150 by tahmed32 on June 3, 2003 9:55pm PT
Touche!!!

I like you actually.
Here Im condemmed by Hindus to be pakistani lover and by pakistanis as hating(or at least not liking) pakistanis. Acutally there are boards where pakistains indulge in bashing me!!
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This will happen if you continue to bash Hindus in a same tone as urstuly does.
pakis decided their fate and formed a separate state. But Indian muslims made a different choice so their life is bound to be different from that of pakis.
If muslims all over the world are bashed for what happened on sep 11 or for what muslims did in Bali bombings, then at least Indians muslims are safe .. not considered fanatics as they are a part of multireligious democracy ..
But if Indian muslims think they can impose Islam on the majority or on other relgions like honorable_syed is doing...then that won`t be accepted....if Indian muslims wish to form their own `mullah-land`(another pakiland) inside India..well then they would end up ..`na ghar ka na ghat kaa`..with neither Indians nor pakistanis liking them..

Indian muslims should understand by now that whatever love pakis ever show to them is not genuine..thsi manipulation by them is only meant to divide India on religious basis.

#155 by Urstruly on June 4, 2003 8:46am PT
msouza and stuka
The question still remains why hinduism is considered so intolerant, violent, threatening, and aggressive by its own true adherents? That was the question all along.
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worry about islam ..man...
ask yourself why is it hated so much by the whole world now..

I see all these hindus come here and attack Muslims, Pakistan, and Indian Muslims, but what they fail to see is the problems that exist within their religion, culture and their country. From what i have seen, there are bigger problems in India, slightly touched upon by Zarine. In india there is a huge divide between the darker skinned dravidians (South Indians and the lower castes) and the lighter skinned North Indians and upper castes. There is this hatred that exists between the two, and expectedly sanctioned and advocated in Hinduism. The hindus should sort out these problems before coming here and telling the Pakistanis who their ancestors were, which is quite ludicrous, to be honest with you. And by the same token, we should ask all hindus to convert to Bhuddism, as thats what their ancestors were. Another thing i would like to ask the hindus is why do most Muslims from the Deccan areas have lighter skin if they converted from hinduism. If they were converts then they should have dark skin like the other south indians.

#150 by tahmed32 on June 3, 2003 9:55pm PT

Touche!!!

I like you actually.

Here Im condemmed by Hindus to be pakistani lover and by pakistanis as hating(or at least not liking) pakistanis. Acutally there are boards where pakistains indulge in bashing me!!

I try not to indulge in that emotion that to in such faceless discussion boards.

Im happy you call my writing ``style`` even though long winded. Hey Im no writer just a guy posting some stuff from time to time. No writing skills here or even gramattical skills, Takes too much too be concise and crystal clear im not sayin I have that skill.

Thanks for your article, Zarine.

Just like Pakistani media paints India like an Islamophobic country, Indian media and movies misrepresent Pakistan as a Mohajir-phobic country ridden with sectarianism. In fact, there have been no Mohahir-Indigenous and Shia-Sunni riots in the history of Pakistan!

Altaf Hussain owes his status and popularity to General Zia-ul-Haq who wanted to weaken Benazir`s PPP in urban areas. In pursuit of the same political goal, Zia groomed Nawaz Sharif in Punjab as a counterweight to the PPP.

The Mehran Bank scandal (1994) reveals that even after Zia`s death in 1988, the ISI doled out millions of rupees to Nawaz Sharif, Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Altaf Hussain and other politicians... to engineer a hung parliament and deny Benazir an absolute majority in General Elections.

You may be surprised to learn that only about 2,000 terrorists are causing Shia-Sunni violence all over Pakistan. There is no Shia-Sunni problem in Pakistan. There are just two militant groups (Lashkar-e-Jhangvi and Sipah-e-Muhammad) who kill each other and sometimes attack mosques of the other sect.

Interestingly, Ziaul Haq`s name once again crops up in this context. Zia needed legitimacy. The Islamic fundamentalist parties provided that in return for a free hand in pursuing their religious agenda. Since these fundamentalists were largely Wahhabi radicals, they wanted to impose strict Sunni laws (zakat/ushr, Hudood punishments, etc) in Pakistan.

Ziaul Haq supported the radical Wahhabi elements in squeezing out the Shias. Several controversial laws were passed in 1981 to please the Sunni parties. Some Shia clerics were gunned down in Lahore in 1982. In retaliation, the first Shia party was formed with Iranian financing.

The bulk of Pakistani population is not involved in Shia-Sunni and Mohajir politics. There are just a few groups who seek to gain power through such divide-and-rule tactics. Politics, not religion or ethnicity, is the motivation behind these issues.

Take a deeper look at Babri mosque issue, Bombay riots and Gujrat pogrom... You will find some vested political interests behind these incidents.

The BJP and other Hindu fundamentalist parties in India have realized that communalism and Islamophobia is their ONLY ticket to power in India.

As a Pakistani, I admire Jinnah for foreseeing the communalization of India politics 58 years ago. Jinnah saved us from the RSS. Now we must save ourselves from the MMA.

Zarine Habeeb`s article is truly refresshing. The plight of the Gujarat Muslim is as injurious to multiethnic and multireligious India`s survival as is the plight of the non-Muslim on India`s side of the LoC in Jammu & Kashmir.

India has to take care of herself. No one else will do it, and certainly not Pakistan`s ruling elite (primarily the military) which has done everything possible for more than half a century to impose PoK`s religious homogeneity on the rest of Jammu & Kashmir as well.

The best way to tackle the evil designs of Pakistan`s ruling elite is to strive to be just as vigilant about protecting the rights of Gujarat`s Muslims as we strive to protect the rights of the non-Muslims of Jammu & Kashmir on India`s side of the LoC (PoK had been cleansed of all non-Muslims a long time ago).


The Horizon
30th October, 1998

Self-determination Isn`t Always Sacred
by Pravin Satsangi

Self-determination is fast becoming the most abused concept of our times. When Woodrow Wilson coined the word, it was to verbalize his compassion and concern for fellow human beings. But the political arm of terrorists,like those in Kashmir, use the word in a way that is a travesty of the lofty principles that had animated President Wilson and is a cruel mockery of human rights. No one can possibly be left in doubt about this
once he witnesses the plight of the quarter million Kashmiri Hindus who have had to flee their ancestral home in the face of fanatical terrorists from abroad seeking self-determination for the Muslims in Kashmir.

The political representatives of the terrorists in Kashmir weave the word ``self-determination`` into their righteous chants in a clever public relations effort to glean support for their goal of turning Jammu and Kashmir in the mold of ethnically cleansed Pakistan. The world needs to be informed that self-determination of ``their`` people is ruthlessly violating the human rights of others.

Self-determination is indeed a basic human right. But it loses its sanctity when self-determination of a group implies marching orders for the rest. Ofcourse, people don`t leave their homes voluntarily. They have to be persuaded. That means killing them untill everybody gets the idea.The massive ethnic cleansing of 1947 in Jinnah`s Pakistan is an example of self-determaination of this evil variety. Pakistan lived upto its name by becoming a ``cleansed land`` within weeks of independence. And now Kashmir is taking a leaf out of Jinnah`s book. Self-righteous chanters of ``self-determination`` with direct Pakistani assistance seem well on their way to stamping out religious diversity from Jammu and Kashmir.

Will we never learn the cruel lessons of history? The previous UN Secretary General Boutros-Ghali put it about as bluntly as could be: ``If every ethnic, religious or linguistic group claimed statehood, there would be no limit to fragmentation. Peace, security and economic well-being for all would become even more difficult to achieve.``

Self-determination for a group must never sanctify the violation of human rights of another. Automatic self-determination, for whosoever shouts the loudest, is a sure recipe for tragedies like Kashmir. It is the greatest of evils to allow one person`s self-determination to degenerate into his neighbour`s extinction. Kashmir desperately calls out for respite from fanatical terrorists from abroad who have turned the land into a living hell.

Abraham Lincoln courageously faced down those that chanted ``secession`` to perpetuate the evil of slavery. We, too, must summon the courage to confront those that chant ``self-determination`` in heedless pursuit of Jinnah`s evil ideology of religious apartheid.

In response to msouza:
Msouza, even though your contention that all muslims from Pakistan were hindus is totally absurd, but that is something i don`t want to get into as i have given you a thorough explanation in the past. Now even if for arguments sake we agree on your BS contention, let me tell you why if someone was hindu, why would they embrace Islam:

1)LORD INDRA SEDUCES GAUTAMA`S WIFE & HAS BALLS FROM A RAM
``Indra took the form of Gautama to seduce Ahalya, saying to her, `I am in the power of Kama. Give me a kiss and so forth.` But as she was worshipping the gods she told him that he had chosen an inappropriate time. He said, `Enough of this talk of what is done and what is not done. You should obey your husband, especially in the matters of sex. Give me an embrace and so forth.` Then he embraced her and had his pleasure of her, but Gautama knew what had happened by his powers of meditation, and he hurried home and cursed Indra, saying, `Since you have acted in this way for the sake of the yoni (female-sexual-organ/vagina), let there be a thousand of them on your body, and let your linga fall.` Then Gautama went to do tapas, and Indra, full of shame, stood in the water for a long time, praising Devi in her aspect of Indraksi [`Eyes of Indra`]. When she offered him a boon he asked to have his deformity cured, but she said, `I cannot destroy the evil born of a sage`s curse, but I can do something so that people will not notice it: you will have a thousand eyes in the middle of the yonis (vaginas), and you will have the testicles of a ram.`` -- Padma Purana 1:56:15-53.
More on Lord Indra:
``Indra lost his virility. The gods used the ram, the male goat, and the bull as recompense. And therefore the bull is sacred to Indra.`` -- Satapatha Brahmana 12:7:1:10-12; 5:2:3:8.
Can any sane person buy this bull crap?

2)LORD PRAJAPATI BECOMES AN `EROTIC BOAR` TO CREATE THE EARTH (VEDAS -- TAITTIRIYA SAMHITA)
For millenia, Hindus believed that the earth was surrounded by water as the entire universe was an ocean surrounding the earth. Lord Prajapati (Brahma) becomes a boar avatar (``god-incarnate-hog``) to create the planet:
``In the beginning this universe was the waters, the ocean. Prajapati became the wind and moved in the ocean. He saw the earth and became a boar and seized her; he became Visvakarman and stroked her, spreading her out so that she became extended; she became the earth, and so the earth is called Prthivi (`the Extended`). Prajapati exhausted himself in her, and he produced the gods, Vasus, Rudras, and Adityas.`` -- Taittiriya Samhita 7:1:5:1. Compare: Rig-Veda 1:61:7; 8:77:10; Satapatha Brahmana 7:5:1:5; 14:1:2:11; Taittiriya Brahmana 1:1:3:5; Taittiriya Samhita 6:2:4:2
Can any sane person buy this BS?

I dont want to make this boring, but i hope you get the point, that Hinduism preaches things which humans can and will not accept, hence many of them renounce the worship of lingas and younis, and embrace Islam. This is an ongoing phenomenon, in India whole villages are embracing either Islam or Christianity, which Muslims are holding a sword to their neck? I`m afraid none are. So start accepting things as they are, and let me also remind you, if your intention is to taunt the muslims of india by reminding them of their past (Dark ages, when they were hindus), its not going to work, since in Islam your past does not determine your future as in hinduism where you have incarnation and people being reincarnated into dogs, pigs and lower castes, in Islam the greatest personalities, i.e. sahabas were also once non Muslim.

re: #146

...in urstruly`s case, he does not mind that his forefathers had swords shove up in every crevice to get converted...now he dances around as if he is one of the invaders....it`s all too comical...

Here`s some food for thought for those Pakis who think that Pakiland is on the path to moderation. So much for a ``frontline`` ally in the war on terror.

Pakistanis view US as military threat: Survey
Press Trust of India/ Associated Press

Washington, June 4: A large number of Pakistanis view the US as a potential future military threat, the 2003 Global Attitudes Survey by the Washington-based Pew Research Center for the People and the Press noted.

Nearly a quarter (24 per cent) of respondents in Pakistan say they have ``a lot of confidence`` in Osama bin Laden to ``do the right thing regarding world affairs,`` and another 21 per cent say they have ``some`` confidence. Just 27 per cent say they have little or no confidence in the al-Qaeda leader.

America`s image continues to suffer in Pakistan. Just 13 per cent have a favourable opinion of the US, while 81 per cent feel unfavourably. Most of those with a negative view say it is mostly because of US President George W Bush, not a more general problem with the United States.

Nearly half (47 per cent) say they are ``very worried`` that the US could become a military threat to Pakistan some day.

Sixty per cent of respondents think Iraqis will be in worse shape with Saddam Hussein out of power; just 17 per cent say things will be better for the Iraqi people now.

Only 16 per cent support the US-led war on terrorism.

Fifty-seven percent believe that the rights and needs of the Palestinian people cannot be taken care of as long as the state of Israel exists. Just 23 per cent are more optimistic that the two can coexist successfully.

Three-quarters say Islam should play a very large role in the political life of Pakistan, the highest rate of 14 Muslim states studied. Just 35 per cent think Islam currently plays a very large role in their nation`s political life.

#143 by ali87 on June 3, 2003 2:49pm PT

[but then as most of you claim that you dont need books to do that. Try saying just that next time you are in mumbai you will find out about the wonderful capability of hindu to create scriptures on the fly..]

But it`s still not half as wonderful as your capability to collectievly think and actually believe in such Alice-in-wonderland crap that the Jews/Mossad brought down the WTC, terrorism is justified because Muslims are an oppressed lot, Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden are heroes, and that the US invaded Iraq to take possession of its oil, etc. etc..

If there ever is an area where most of the Muslim world is developed, it is in the art of conjuring up conspiracy theories (like the one on Mumbaiites you just cooked up).