Colour discrimination

Is ahmadmadani for real, or is he satirizing contemporary Pakistani society? Will the real person stand up, please?

The remarks of most of the men here are most illuminating, and should help Sameena understand why things are the way they are.

Sameena, you`re a survivor even though you continue in a bad marriage. There`s much more to life than a husband`s who`s trying to put you down on account of the colour of your skin - don`t you think it`s because he feels, has always felt, inferior to you? He himself wasn`t all that wonderful to begin with, isn`t it? So perhaps that`s the way he takes it out? And no, it won`t change, if that`s the case. Because you`re so clearly the better of the two, and it takes a very different kind of man from what we usually find in our subcontinent to accept a wife`s who`s intellectually even his equal, not to speak of being superior to him.

#95 by nazarhayatkhan on June 23, 2003 7:11am PT

ZaraJ # 85

All these laws, though Islamic, actually differ a great deal in practice from each other. So the only Islamic law that would be acceptable to me would be the one which thrives in a society with a high quality of universal education.
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And that is why I suppose there definitely is and should be some difference between an Indian muslim woman and a Pakistani woman(I didn`t write paksitani muslim woman be cause most pakistani women are muslim anyway)

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ZaraJ # 85

All laws are benign. It is the intrepretation that counts. And the interpretation depends on the culture and society.

Islamic law - Which Law?

The Taliban Law Or the Malaysian Law Or the Saudi Law Or the Indian Muslim personal law Or the Pakistani Law and so on.

All these laws, though Islamic, actually differ a great deal in practice from each other. So the only Islamic law that would be acceptable to me would be the one which thrives in a society with a high quality of universal education.

Sameena,
I don`t know whether I should applaud your honesty or point out your naivety.It takes a lot of courage to write so openly about your personal life,and I know I could never do it.On the other hand,maybe for your sake,it would have been better if you had talked to your husband about it rather than a chowk-ful of strangers.I guess if your husband doesn`t listen,though,you should ask yourself why you remain with a man who does not respect you or your parents, in this day and age.I know you have mentioned your children as your primary reason,but an unhappy mother does a child more harm than good,and do not hope that they will appreciate your ``sacrifice`` when they grow up.I hope you don`t think you would have been better off if you were light-skinned because we all have flaws in the eyes of others,and if someone is determined to put you down,he will always find something.As a daughter,even if not a mother,I want to tell you that you will always be the most beautiful woman in the world for your own daughter-next time just look at the adoration in her eyes.

hamidm2 #92 Fair enough.

PS: I am sure I do not have to add the phrase ``no pun intended`` in order to make sure you are suitably impressed by my clever use above of the word ``fair`` in the context of this discussion.

tahmed,

......... i agree with you - a person can be charming and ``attractive`` regardless of the pigmentation of their skin if they have the right personality traits .......but i was talking about beauty in the pure physical sense and as far as that goes lighter complected folks have an advantage ........ i know it is not fair, but that`s the way the cookie crumbles ........

HamidM:

``at what point does a black person stop being black and becomes white.?............ ``

The historical formula is 1:32. If a person has 31 parts white and one part black blood, he is black.

hamidm2 #89 I will agree that most blacks seem to wear their blackness on their sleeve. That is then part of their personality. That is exactly my point: a lot of the poor perceptions of black people have to do with what are in fact lousy personalities (e.g. surly and rude behavior), attitudes (irresponsible attitude towards work) and plain dumb behavior. Combine this with lack of attention to physical health (overweight women, as i mentioned, and poor hygiene) that results from being poor and certainly the result is not very attractive at all.

If one keeps the above point in mind, then I think you will understand what I am trying to say: I am not saying that a fair complexion does not lend advantages over a dark complexion. I am just saying that the advantages are grossly overrated. And a dark person - with the right personality, attitudes, and attention to physical well being - can easily make herself a very attractive person. And having a fair complexion does not mean that a person cannot be positively repulsive: think of white person with the same problems as I mentioned above for black women and you will see what i mean. Its just that whites in US in general tend to have better personalities, tend to be more conscientous at work, more courteous with strangers, and more attentive to phsyical health etc. At least the professional among them.

tahmed,

.......... i am sorry, but the fact of matter is that most of these people who claim to be black are no more black than my grandma ......... at what point does a black person stop being black and becomes white.?............ anyone who says vanessa williams or tiger woods is black is an idiot ......... most african americans wear their blackness as a kind of badge of honor, in the same way that some american muslims make a fool of themselves by wearing the hijab or pretending to be arabs when they are not ............ it is a silly game that people play for different reasons .............

.......... there is nothing beautiful about being dark unless, like i said before, you are iman or naomi campbell .......... as a rule, most folks prefer a fair complexion and desis are no exception ............ the only people who think otherwise are being disingenuous ..............

idm2 #87 Let me present the evidence: According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the number of black female-white male marriages was relatively static at 26,000 to 27,000 between 1960 and 1980. The number jumped to 80,000 in 2000.

So, what happened between 1980 and 2000? Did black women suddenly become beautiful? Or did 80,000 white men in the US go blind and did not realize that they were marrying black women? I dont think so. What happened was this: black women advanced educationally as a result of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. The picked up other things that poorer people lack: education, class, motivation, and so forth. And they started taking care of their bodies, while poorer black women are often grossly overweight. And I have seen black wife white husband couples where both are obviously smart, educated, professionals.

So, while I dont disagree that skin complexion a role to play in making a woman attractive, that is not all. As for South Indians, I have seen some very dark and very attractive South Indian women. I went to Indonesia first time in 1980 and the people looked pretty scrawny and unattractive. I went back next after 16 years, and they actually started looking attractive - they were taller and maintained themselves better. Venessa Williams may not be attractive, but neither was (I forget her name and gotta go now to lunch)...

vanessa william is beautiful, venus williams is not ..........

........ even though vanessa calims to be black, she is not ......... it is idiotic to suggest that ``black is beautiful``, and people who say so are either aesthetically challenged or are being ridiculously politically correct .........and it is not just an obsession with the desis of south asia - people all over the world prefer fair over dark and spend millions on lotions and potions to help them get rid of the curse .................... that is not to say that the parchment white complexion of some europeans is attractive (that is why god invented sun tan lotion), but the fact remains that there is nothing attractive about a darkie from south india .......... look, every black person with ten dollars to spare is getting their hair straightened and trying to look as white as they can ............ some, like michael jackson, carry it to an extreme while others, like tiger woods, is content just having his hair bleached to match his girl friend`s ............ and he is not even black - he is the best thai golfer in the world ............

............. of course there are exceptions like iman and naomi cambell, who are beautiful by any standard......... but they are exceptions to the rule ............iman, naomi and vanessa - what a beautiful thought!

May I have the liberty to wrap up this colour debate ``It is all dark when in the dark``.

One thing that slipped my mind while I was jotting down my concluding remarks on this ``mysteriously convoluted but interesting piece`` was the lame argument on the Indian Law and its nuances. I just have one point in that regard:

- If the Indian Law provides that much security to its women then no matter who they are and what they are they should not be obligated in any way or shape to have babies with dislikable husbands. They should be able to part amicably before having any babies!
Also, that man must be real sick to have babies with a wife, he is constantly putting down.

Next time, if anyone has any point to make in that regard (Indian Law and its superb deals), they better think before they write and not after that since Islamically a Muslim women is entitled to say goodbye to her husband if she is not happy in the marriage. Most of the Muslims follow a procedure of Nikaah(social and religious contract) and in that Nikaah Nama(contractual document) a clause is mentioned that is known as ``right of divorce.`` Most of the insecure and retarded muslim men are quite reticent in granting their wives to be, with that right. Demanding a right is not necessarily implying that eventually you will exercise that right; but it`s in your own best interest to have that in your back pocket. And, life is not about jumping into unknown ditches with the hope to land into a comfortable and relaxing suana or steam room. As a dear uncle puts it that there is nothing natural about marriage, it`s only a social contract. In my view, make sure that you have everything well taken care of in that contract.
Why Not ? You must!!!

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ahmedmadani #81 i dont think skin color is as big a deal as you try to make it out to be. i find your lengthy posts trying to make a case of why ``the whiter the better`` to be very superficial. You look at only those ``facts`` that support your way of thinking - for example, there are in fact a significant and growing number of marriages between white men and women of non-white races in the US.

There is much more to what makes a woman attractive than color of skin - general health, personality, dressing tastefully, and so forth.