Colour discrimination

Is ahmadmadani for real, or is he satirizing contemporary Pakistani society? Will the real person stand up, please?

The remarks of most of the men here are most illuminating, and should help Sameena understand why things are the way they are.

Sameena, you`re a survivor even though you continue in a bad marriage. There`s much more to life than a husband`s who`s trying to put you down on account of the colour of your skin - don`t you think it`s because he feels, has always felt, inferior to you? He himself wasn`t all that wonderful to begin with, isn`t it? So perhaps that`s the way he takes it out? And no, it won`t change, if that`s the case. Because you`re so clearly the better of the two, and it takes a very different kind of man from what we usually find in our subcontinent to accept a wife`s who`s intellectually even his equal, not to speak of being superior to him.

#95 by nazarhayatkhan on June 23, 2003 7:11am PT

ZaraJ # 85

All these laws, though Islamic, actually differ a great deal in practice from each other. So the only Islamic law that would be acceptable to me would be the one which thrives in a society with a high quality of universal education.
------

And that is why I suppose there definitely is and should be some difference between an Indian muslim woman and a Pakistani woman(I didn`t write paksitani muslim woman be cause most pakistani women are muslim anyway)

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ZaraJ # 85

All laws are benign. It is the intrepretation that counts. And the interpretation depends on the culture and society.

Islamic law - Which Law?

The Taliban Law Or the Malaysian Law Or the Saudi Law Or the Indian Muslim personal law Or the Pakistani Law and so on.

All these laws, though Islamic, actually differ a great deal in practice from each other. So the only Islamic law that would be acceptable to me would be the one which thrives in a society with a high quality of universal education.

Sameena,
I don`t know whether I should applaud your honesty or point out your naivety.It takes a lot of courage to write so openly about your personal life,and I know I could never do it.On the other hand,maybe for your sake,it would have been better if you had talked to your husband about it rather than a chowk-ful of strangers.I guess if your husband doesn`t listen,though,you should ask yourself why you remain with a man who does not respect you or your parents, in this day and age.I know you have mentioned your children as your primary reason,but an unhappy mother does a child more harm than good,and do not hope that they will appreciate your ``sacrifice`` when they grow up.I hope you don`t think you would have been better off if you were light-skinned because we all have flaws in the eyes of others,and if someone is determined to put you down,he will always find something.As a daughter,even if not a mother,I want to tell you that you will always be the most beautiful woman in the world for your own daughter-next time just look at the adoration in her eyes.

hamidm2 #92 Fair enough.

PS: I am sure I do not have to add the phrase ``no pun intended`` in order to make sure you are suitably impressed by my clever use above of the word ``fair`` in the context of this discussion.

tahmed,

......... i agree with you - a person can be charming and ``attractive`` regardless of the pigmentation of their skin if they have the right personality traits .......but i was talking about beauty in the pure physical sense and as far as that goes lighter complected folks have an advantage ........ i know it is not fair, but that`s the way the cookie crumbles ........

HamidM:

``at what point does a black person stop being black and becomes white.?............ ``

The historical formula is 1:32. If a person has 31 parts white and one part black blood, he is black.

hamidm2 #89 I will agree that most blacks seem to wear their blackness on their sleeve. That is then part of their personality. That is exactly my point: a lot of the poor perceptions of black people have to do with what are in fact lousy personalities (e.g. surly and rude behavior), attitudes (irresponsible attitude towards work) and plain dumb behavior. Combine this with lack of attention to physical health (overweight women, as i mentioned, and poor hygiene) that results from being poor and certainly the result is not very attractive at all.

If one keeps the above point in mind, then I think you will understand what I am trying to say: I am not saying that a fair complexion does not lend advantages over a dark complexion. I am just saying that the advantages are grossly overrated. And a dark person - with the right personality, attitudes, and attention to physical well being - can easily make herself a very attractive person. And having a fair complexion does not mean that a person cannot be positively repulsive: think of white person with the same problems as I mentioned above for black women and you will see what i mean. Its just that whites in US in general tend to have better personalities, tend to be more conscientous at work, more courteous with strangers, and more attentive to phsyical health etc. At least the professional among them.

tahmed,

.......... i am sorry, but the fact of matter is that most of these people who claim to be black are no more black than my grandma ......... at what point does a black person stop being black and becomes white.?............ anyone who says vanessa williams or tiger woods is black is an idiot ......... most african americans wear their blackness as a kind of badge of honor, in the same way that some american muslims make a fool of themselves by wearing the hijab or pretending to be arabs when they are not ............ it is a silly game that people play for different reasons .............

.......... there is nothing beautiful about being dark unless, like i said before, you are iman or naomi campbell .......... as a rule, most folks prefer a fair complexion and desis are no exception ............ the only people who think otherwise are being disingenuous ..............

idm2 #87 Let me present the evidence: According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the number of black female-white male marriages was relatively static at 26,000 to 27,000 between 1960 and 1980. The number jumped to 80,000 in 2000.

So, what happened between 1980 and 2000? Did black women suddenly become beautiful? Or did 80,000 white men in the US go blind and did not realize that they were marrying black women? I dont think so. What happened was this: black women advanced educationally as a result of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. The picked up other things that poorer people lack: education, class, motivation, and so forth. And they started taking care of their bodies, while poorer black women are often grossly overweight. And I have seen black wife white husband couples where both are obviously smart, educated, professionals.

So, while I dont disagree that skin complexion a role to play in making a woman attractive, that is not all. As for South Indians, I have seen some very dark and very attractive South Indian women. I went to Indonesia first time in 1980 and the people looked pretty scrawny and unattractive. I went back next after 16 years, and they actually started looking attractive - they were taller and maintained themselves better. Venessa Williams may not be attractive, but neither was (I forget her name and gotta go now to lunch)...

vanessa william is beautiful, venus williams is not ..........

........ even though vanessa calims to be black, she is not ......... it is idiotic to suggest that ``black is beautiful``, and people who say so are either aesthetically challenged or are being ridiculously politically correct .........and it is not just an obsession with the desis of south asia - people all over the world prefer fair over dark and spend millions on lotions and potions to help them get rid of the curse .................... that is not to say that the parchment white complexion of some europeans is attractive (that is why god invented sun tan lotion), but the fact remains that there is nothing attractive about a darkie from south india .......... look, every black person with ten dollars to spare is getting their hair straightened and trying to look as white as they can ............ some, like michael jackson, carry it to an extreme while others, like tiger woods, is content just having his hair bleached to match his girl friend`s ............ and he is not even black - he is the best thai golfer in the world ............

............. of course there are exceptions like iman and naomi cambell, who are beautiful by any standard......... but they are exceptions to the rule ............iman, naomi and vanessa - what a beautiful thought!

May I have the liberty to wrap up this colour debate ``It is all dark when in the dark``.

One thing that slipped my mind while I was jotting down my concluding remarks on this ``mysteriously convoluted but interesting piece`` was the lame argument on the Indian Law and its nuances. I just have one point in that regard:

- If the Indian Law provides that much security to its women then no matter who they are and what they are they should not be obligated in any way or shape to have babies with dislikable husbands. They should be able to part amicably before having any babies!
Also, that man must be real sick to have babies with a wife, he is constantly putting down.

Next time, if anyone has any point to make in that regard (Indian Law and its superb deals), they better think before they write and not after that since Islamically a Muslim women is entitled to say goodbye to her husband if she is not happy in the marriage. Most of the Muslims follow a procedure of Nikaah(social and religious contract) and in that Nikaah Nama(contractual document) a clause is mentioned that is known as ``right of divorce.`` Most of the insecure and retarded muslim men are quite reticent in granting their wives to be, with that right. Demanding a right is not necessarily implying that eventually you will exercise that right; but it`s in your own best interest to have that in your back pocket. And, life is not about jumping into unknown ditches with the hope to land into a comfortable and relaxing suana or steam room. As a dear uncle puts it that there is nothing natural about marriage, it`s only a social contract. In my view, make sure that you have everything well taken care of in that contract.
Why Not ? You must!!!

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ahmedmadani #81 i dont think skin color is as big a deal as you try to make it out to be. i find your lengthy posts trying to make a case of why ``the whiter the better`` to be very superficial. You look at only those ``facts`` that support your way of thinking - for example, there are in fact a significant and growing number of marriages between white men and women of non-white races in the US.

There is much more to what makes a woman attractive than color of skin - general health, personality, dressing tastefully, and so forth.

Correction:

Post 80 should read...

- Women/Men who go through mental abuse in their marriages should...

Studebaker you seems dark colored hindu from your comments. I love all pppl as I said before hindoos, blacks,handicaps every body. I want everybody to be happy. I am in business of Hospitality. I work on 4-star hotel on Dr.Ziauddin Rd, Karachi,sindh pakistan. Our only thought is make all guest happy so they make me happy. I want lots of Hindus of Sindhi origin come to visits us. Our hotel top management is working on possibility of tours for hindu sindhis from india. As things open we wants sindhis to come to visit real sindh and proud of their Muslim sindhi brothers. Manager said it can permanant business. I am telling boss we can have packaged tours for hindu sindhis.
It can be good for both countries, we are short of visitors presently. My comments increase when no too much work. You see few months have been good but it has been bad today completely. Some time KSE hits double centuries but we hit sinking feeling in our hotel its strange. Now I am recoved from losses in Adamjee Insurance. Thinking of buying ICI and HUB. any way.

Faisal UNO (good Faisal of uited nations) .. I appreciate very much for agreeing with me. Things are down in Karachi presently so you appreciation made feel good. We are betting little money on local MMA or MQM will win. MQM has put heavy gun for election. I am happy you are making tons of money. Money is power. I hope you are in milk white people country of usa. Well you are not dark due to sun burn you are born dark and its ok no problem to madani. You can tell other if you feel but now you must improve little by good cold air water of usa. Many people tell girls will whiten up after marriage that is also not true.Just selling proposal tactics. You can tell Marry white race and be two step forward. You will make even more proud your parents and all far flung family. Any way thanks just its miserable no guests no trips no dollars. This spell must brake. good luck every body

ahmed madani,

............ you rock! ......

Post # 71:

I agree with your assertions made in reference to this article. Your first para is only exposing those who base their relationships on lies and deceit and then try to play a victim`s role. It`s a known weakness of the South Asian Community to avoid upfront communication.


On another note:

I am completely clueless on why the writer under discussion had two daughters with this
holy man ? Did the mental abuse begin after the daughters were born? If not then how could she think of having babies with this person ? I am unable to understand this mystery!

To me, it seems more like some domestic chapqalash that is getting more attention than needed. It should be resolved between the two people and eventually that will be the end route. For the very same reason, the article portrayed a very light reading in the beginning. It still does. The writer`s responses are extremely weak and are not in line with the orginal theme of this article or the impression she wanted to give.

What`s the end???

What should a reader derive from this piece? What`s the message? It`s very convoluted.

- Women who go through mental abuse in their marriages should:

a) go out and start working to boost their morale ?

b) stop paying attention to their spouse`s ridicule ?

c) give him or her dirty looks?

d) stay in the abusive relationship for the children ?

e) ignore their spouse completely ?

f) seek councelling ?

g) seek attention outside of their relationship to boost their own ego ?

??????

As I said earlier there is a gap somewhere and a poor job was done to create a connection. The intent may have been to create awareness on a social issue, but the way it`s been put forth it ain`t conveying what it intended to.

Thanks.

..........ahmed madani, as usual, hits it on the head ......

..........initially i was sympathetic towards samankhan, but after reading her responses i do believe she is invloved in some kind of a silly power struggle with her husband ......... it is kind of ridiculous to continue sleeping with a man just because he agreed to visit her parents ............and if things are as bad she makes them out to be, the kids would be much better off if they split............this whole thing sounds fishy, or as mr madani would say, it is all lufangebazi!

If you have specific questions that are not covered below, please feel free to email us. To get information on the number of calls received by Sakhi, please go to the Sakhi News section of the website and click on Updates.

What is Domestic Violence?:
Domestic violence is a pattern of assault and coercion that includes physical, emotional, verbal, sexual, and economic abuse perpetrated by an adult against their intimate partner. Domestic violence is behavior that attempts to control the victim in one or more ways. It can result in both physical and psychological harm to the victim and their children. It can also be life-threatening. It`s important to understand that verbal and emotional abuse can be as scarring as physical abuse.



How is it different in the South Asian community?:
Domestic violence exists in all communities. While the degree of violence may be the same across communities, the forms of the abuse may differ. In the South Asian community, for example, where the joint family system is often still practiced, the abuser(s) may be the in-laws, including brother-in-law and sister-in-laws, and not just the husband. Women who have come to Sakhi for help have often had to get restraining orders against their in-laws to protect themselves. In addition, dowry is a form of control particular to the South Asian community. Even in the United States, we have heard of women being punished for not bringing in enough assets to the marriage. South Asian women may also face extreme pressure to deliver a male child, and failure to do so, may result in further abuse.



How big is the problem of domestic violence?:
According to the latest FBI statistics, a woman in America is abused every 9 seconds. In the South Asian community, we estimate that 1 in every 4 families have experienced some kind of abuse. Sakhi receives approximately 30 new crisis calls per month. However, we know that for each woman who contacts us, there are more who either do not know about our services or too afraid to reach out for help.



What kind of men abuse women?:
Abusive men come from all walks of life - doctors, cab drivers, lawyers, restaurant workers, businessmen, bankers, engineers, computer programmers, shopkeepers, diplomats, and entertainers. They can be young or old, rich or low-income, and of all religious faiths and educational levels. They can be fathers, brothers, uncles, friends, and co-workers. What they share in common, however, is a belief that they can exert power over their intimate partners, and that this behavior is justifiable.



Can men be victims?:
95% of all victims of abuse are women. The small minority of abused men include men in gay relationships.



Are South Asian women in arranged marriages more abused?:
There are no statistics to indicate that South Asian women in arranged marriages are more abused than South Asian women in love marriages. Perpetrators of abuse marry women through both systems. However, forced marriages, including child marriages, are a form of abuse, and may lead to even greater violence against the woman.



Why does domestic violence happen?:
Domestic violence is the extreme expression of the belief in male dominance over women. Men who choose to abuse their partners do so because they have learned that violence ``works`` to maintain power and control in their relationships.

Domestic violence continues because our silence as a community and as a society legitimizes the abuser`s behavior. Men need to know that abuse of any kind will not be tolerated by anyone, and that there will be severe consequences for their actions.

Domestic violence is part of a continuum of oppression in which women are violated in various ways throughout the world, including rape and sexual assault, incest, sexual harassment, female genital mutilation, dowry, etc.



Do batterers change? Can counseling or mediation save the relationship?:
Batterers can change, because abuse is a learned behavior. However, abusers can change only if they first accept responsibility for their behavior and choose to learn new ways of communicating with their partner. According to numerous professional studies, traditional couples therapy is unlikely to result in the goal of a non-violent relationship. Individual and group counseling programs designed specifically for abusers are the preferred way of addressing his behavior. In addition, it is also important that the community take an active stand against abuse so that the batterer is held accountable towards his behavior.



Does Sakhi believe every woman who calls for help? Do you talk to the men to find out ``his side of the story``?:
When a woman contacts Sakhi and says that she has experienced abuse, we do not talk to the perpetrator(s). It is our policy to believe each woman who calls for help. We know how difficult it is for women to speak about what is going on in the confines of her home. After an abusive incident, the batterer often places the blame upon her, without acknowledging that that there is no excuse for his behavior. At Sakhi, we seek to listen to her without judgement and support her the best that we can.



Do the women who call Sakhi for assistance get a divorce?:
Not all the women who call Sakhi get divorced. We will present her with different options, and it is up to her to decide what is best for her. Within certain segments of the South Asian community, divorce is still seen as a mark of shame and stigma.



If a woman is here without proper immigration documents, can she call the police or go to the courts?:
Yes! In the United States, you can call the police (911) and access the Family and Criminal Courts regardless of your visa status. Undocumented women can call the police and access the legal protections offered to battered women through the court system. The police and the Family or Criminal Courts will not report a woman`s immigration status to the Immigration and Naturalization Service. Many abusers wrongly threaten their wives that if she were to call these agencies for help, she will be deported.



Do abused women have any rights to stay here legally in the United States if they are not citizens or greencard holders?:
There are a variety of legal protections for immigrant battered women. An abused woman, for example, can ``self-petition`` for a greencard if she is married to a legal permanent resident or a U.S. citizen. In addition, if a woman has a conditional greencard, she can also file for a battered women`s spouse waiver. Abused women may also be eligible for other protections, such as political asylum. However, it is best to contact an immigration attorney and/or Sakhi to get detailed information on the options, procedures for filing, the documents needed, etc. Sakhi, and other agencies, can provide women with access to free legal services, if she cannot afford a lawyer.



What are the effects of abuse on the children?:
All children suffer from witnessing their father abuse their mother. In addition to the psychological effects, children can, in fact, be direct targets of abuse. Studies indicate that it is better for children to live without their perpetrating father than in a two-parent household that is abusive. Also, boys who witness abuse are at greater risk to become perpetrators of violence in adulthood. (See related article under Survivors Stories on this website).



If a woman is being abused, why doesn`t she just leave?:
There are many reasons why abused women do not leave. For many, leaving may not be an alternative. She may have nowhere to go or little or no resources in the community available to her. Shelter space, for example, is woefully inadequate in the United States, as is affordable daycare and job-training programs. She may feel that she should not deprive her children of their father. She may be economically dependent and feel that it is better for her and her children to stay in the home than face life on the streets. She may also be ostracized from her family and friends if she leaves. She may be isolated from community gatherings.

South Asian women may face pressure to keep the stay so that the younger sister`s chances of marriage will not be ruined or that family honor will be intact. In addition, because of the messages she has received from her community, she may also feel that it is her duty to keep the marriage together at all costs. She may also want the violence to end, but not the relationship itself, hoping that it will change at some point. Finally, a battered women also faces the most physical danger from her perpetrator(s) when she attempts to leave; her abuser(s) threaten her with violence and death if she tries to escape.

It is also important to note that many women do leave once or more, but then return. After leaving, her struggles are not over. Many women have sought assistance from police, lawyers, healthcare providers, family members, and religious institutions; however, if they are not adequately supported, they are further trapped.



If I know a woman who is abused, what can I do?:
Assure her of confidentiality.Validate the woman`s experience. Let her know that she is not alone and that abuse is not her fault. Listen to her and support her without blame or judgement. Provide her with resources, including information on domestic violence organizations like Sakhi. Offer to be a contact person in an emergency. Respect her right to self-determination and choose her own path.



If I am being abused, what can I do and how can Sakhi help me?:
If you are being abused, contact Sakhi or another domestic violence agency. Tell someone who you feel will support and listen to you. If you feel yourself to be in immediate danger, call the police or your local or national domestic violence hotline (see Links page on this website). Find out what your options are. Remember that you are not alone and that you do not deserve any of his abuse! You have a right to live without fear and violence!



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Mr. De souza.......... I do not like you attitude and not liking beauty and nice color.
Black man and women are discriminated throughout world. It is well established fact even coal darkies of places like india, afrika, arabia rich always find wife bit lighter. Even your gods are dark like Krishna(mans kalu in hindi if i am correct),Govinda, rama(he was dark),shankara( blue dark) but they married white. Same now Imran or Mr. Gandhi( not old but Rajivbaba ) all married white. Even rich arabian marry white ,King of Jordan Late Hussain married white.Prince Hassan was supposed to be king but he had married dark pakistani and while dieing Hashmite ruler went for Child of white women he had fathered.. Look at Clinton he is smartest man but prefers white when comes to real things( talk is cheap). Do you think if Rajiv baba and Imran married white as they know if you want to Rule pak or india best is have whiter children. Well even hindus want white. I am all for black people. Now Kalam as Uncle Pervez said is toothless tiger ok. He is not scientist etc, just administer , its lie to say he is scientist. ( That same with our Dr. Khan). In india pakistan people are emotional cracks and just confer title as scientist. How come both kalam and khan not mentioned in scientific circle. Lafangebazi.

Southern actress are ok from India but they need to be made PRESENTABLE by changing color. Ms. Rahman Wahida I saw black white picture and really look bad without fake white color. I do not know why you do not enjoy your white Punjabi color, I am also Punjabi your brother not brother of your dark Bihari Muslim ok. I do not like Invasion of ugly Indioans. So now some Paki.(Pakistani) may not say directly but we do not want your dark biharis brought to pakistan. Let you have them as you said you like too much dark people. This one of undercurrent in Paki. mind when he does not want to fight for one million biharis, let they stink in Bangla desh. At same time we will fight till end to have Kashmir. Reason is one of is our color affinity towards white Kashmiris and we do not give damn to dark bengalis. Most whites of Pakistan were relieved to get rid od dark bengalies. See difference
of national mood. In pakistan every body claims to be related to white blood no body is proud to claim blood connection to slaves brought ( Siddhis) from africa by Muslim rules of India. Do you thik if Rajiv married a black african his widowed wife has any chance to become PM. Zero. Soniya has advantage of color, Indians say Madam Gandhi. They say madam is angree all dark congressi crowd get scared. Most attraction of Soniya is color. As indians know whites have been rulers of India and pakistan for long time. Look whatever you say, even i may agree but color counts all over world. All advts you see they say they are fair why nody says dark, or black etc? They know black is not bad person but undesirable. See every body recommends black boys and girls to their friends daughter and sons. For their son and daughter only fairer specimen.
I am not fan of Indian movies. I do not watch desi stuff, I watch english movies on cable in our hotel as relaxation. So I do not know details about songs etc. I am against trade against india for personal reasons as if it starts my and managers side business of seeling indian medicines will go down in a month. See we are forced to leave with India as our water and muslim brothers there and their welfare. If we had chance we will be better amoung white people of Central asia, white skinned people and we are destined to be with dark indians. Dark people are smart people. Its god way to compension. Like bengalis have brain better than Punjabis( fish eating evolution) and afghans. Punjabis and afghans are good looking but not very smart people for sure look at pakistan and afghanistan. Uncle pervaiz is dark he is smarter than Shujjat and all Choudharies combined. But White people of Desh have hope. If they study lot and leave gawar attitute they can become smart but dark people can not become white even if they lots of stuff on their bodies. That is point unless they go on marrying up wards( whiter ). Well dont hate blacks etc, that black mandela is coming to pakistan and is welcome for special olympic type plays by handicapped people. They may respect him but no body wants to marry his daughter or son. That is real thing. I do not kneed to tell any body all know when they are born white is good. Not even in future black is going to be beauty or women are going to start putting black polish on their face. I am happy to be white, I have no pride being whiter than average paki. but i do not seek to get darker. One of reason for eternal war between India and Pakistan is dark hindus want to dominate white pakis. This Race struggle and can get really bad over years. Everage Pakistani man or woman has contempt for hindus so 30% hindus at start is reduced to less than one percent and all pakistanis welcomed it except you sending of mohajirs to karachi and bringing crime and bad things as part of habits of dark people. I have heard from friends from usa return in usa white do not live or donot like to live in dark parts of usa ie black majority areas. If you like dark please take away all your urdu brothers from Karachi we will more than happy and give our white kashamiri brothers for whom Pakistan is fighting over 50 years and will go on fighting till kashmir is part of Pk. I have to agree dark hindus are smart. Heard all IT is develoed in india by dark people and dark brahmins of india were at forefront. It was story in BBC about that few years ago. good bye.

mr. madani:

i take my hat off to you sir, you made my day. and i admit i am an expak and a kala one at tha because of playing cricket in karachi in may. i do however make a lot of money.

faisal

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Sir/Madam It only onesided article blaming men, all men its conveys but not said directly. It is her story and we do not know what goes between men and women and specially married and frustrated and angry with each other. I do not believe verbatum every thing said. Men and women marry for differwent reasons. Yes every body wants to marry better than he or her. The man may be right that lady appeared more white than dark. Women like to deceive all time about color by applying any layers of talc etc. Beauty industry is in deceiving business. I tell always men when girls father tells following things add corrective factors.( weight x ,then x+10 Kg or 20 lbs, height 64 inches means really 62 inches, taking course in softwere means unemployed, fair means dark, wheat means dark,medium wheat means coal dark, good family background mohajir etc means no royal blood, has relatives in states with good salary means taxi driver or fast foods fast overworked underpaid, manager menas fast food cleaner).

Writer has started on wrong way as she considered herself unworthy, as she writes she was surprised to be accepted as wife. Its really start fast down slope. She is not proactive but reactive, she responds accepts subordinate position at start game. She allows man to mention about girl friend, she can invent a good former boyfriend ( and she really wants to shatter invent some hindu,sikh boyfriend), why she can not trade him insults. The weakness invites redicule. I think the dynamics was already lost. The man indecent for sure to mention to shatter his wife its very bad. She should have been active and fight like tigress. Its both ways. Once I told my boss manager that he should not complain about his wifes wieght when he is himself getting fat and unattractive. He agreed and never complained .

I do not understand why one should struck up with husband who clealy does not like, its very sad for children to know that father does not like mother and she descipes him. Children know every thing. Its torture for them. The for daughters is wrong excuses, there may be other reasons but for sake of daughters she should say good bye. Its wrong reason. If they women do not like men why they stick up to them, its honorable to depart. A sindhi interior land surf woman can be excused but not lady with all attributes described by herself, who has protection of Law its not like in our country of pakistan where women are killed on regular basis for in feudal system in so called `` honor killings``..

Even the writer writes law will be squarely and partial on herside. Why she said she does not alimony , why not punish that animal, torment men for bad deeds. As in old ages in all cultures sacraficed goats and cows not elephants or lions. Weakness on parts of women attracts oppression. I do not like men or women do stand for something and fight back squarely for their worth. The man does not like her family why he is forced to visit. Women should understand weakness brings contempt. She should leave loosing game, even she does not feel he is in love with her why this attraction to attach to a man who despies. I have come to conclusion both men and women will be much happier if get divorced than carry on absurd drama of married life. Its all bogus and children know how their parents hate each other and and children had to go through that minfield with all mines erupting at all times.
I liked attitude of Ms. A. Debara very respectful way and clearcut way.

I think this drama of coming together for children is cruel joke. The marriage is alrady over long time back ( it does not matter who was at fault.). The writer herself has carried Postmartem but conclusions are drawn are wrong. I hope she has courage to depart terrible now drama of marriage . I think there is good time and reasons to depart , its inevitable and one should find once lonely path as it is said `` everybody has to carry their own cross``. People should not blame man as we do not his side.

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Saman
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He might have come back to save his skin (he is a government employee and the Indian law views a woman`s point of view with much sympathy) but it was basically out of his concern for the girls...
++

Yes..that is the whole point. You are an Indian woman..our women are going miles..doing everything possible ...reaching for stars...they are brave and society is on their side...
India needs smart, brave career women..a vital part of our progressing society

I would suggest you to have some good friends in Bombay(is that where u live?) who don`t advice you to breakup your family life at the first go but support you morally and emotionally..as per your need
You contact the right organisations for counselling and emotional support but don`t let your husband feel put down in the process as this will further spoil things.
Have faith in yourself...and one day...this same husband will change
And if he really doesn`t change..not even with your love....you then can take some step and then not look back

++
So there...I must be the first on chowk to have narrated her daastan-e-ghum at the first go!
I have no regrets though...dukh bantne se hi to kum hota hai...
++

But not everyone understands...not the `turks` like ahmadmadani

You are brave...most of the women pretend to be happily married lest the balme doesn`t come on them

#65 by ahmedmadani on June 20, 2003 9:04pm PT
Sir/Madam.................................... I am for sympathy for dark people of India and pakistan. I am 55 years old chhap person white skin( Tuirkish type blood mixed with persian cream related to Aitulla Shariat Madani of Iran(Tabriz-azari blood) and feel one should prefer white than dark. Now it is all possible dark person has good mind but good mind is not good as people see dark person dark. Hindi movie song has said by Raja Kapoor (hindoo Punjabi white) `` hum hay kale fir bhi dilwale``.
---------

ahmedmadani...your thoughts are repulsive
But I have seen many paksitanis saying similar things about thier `fair colour`....blabla...

There are higher and deeper things in life than color
And then in India ...we value deeper things in women than shallow beauty..and some of the most beautiful women are dark...Hema Malini...Rekha...and many others

Our President Kalam is dark in complexion...but is the most respected man because he is so highly educated and a revered scientist

+Hindi movie song has said by Raja Kapoor (hindoo Punjabi white) `` hum hay kale fir bhi dilwale``.+

I am also a hindu punjabi...a fair one too...but I don`t say I am white. I don`t feel I am in any way superior to those Indians who are bit darker. We all are different flowers of the same bouquet--India

And it is Raj Kappor, not RAja
And the song is `hum kale hain to kya hua dil wale hain`...sung so cutely and beautifully on the screen by much loved Junior Mehmood. Where is lafangebazi in that??


You impossible...incorrigible pakistani men...

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Dear readers,
I did not expect my first effort to generate so much dialogue!
I might have given the impression of being a week-kneed, compromising woman of the East, so here it goes:
I approached the family counselling centre (which incidentally is associated with the woman`s cell of the police department!), either for an honourable reconciliation or an amicable separation...I gave my husband the full liberty to keep the kids and not worry about any alimony or retalliatory proceedings from my side should he opt for separation...he opted for reconciliation.
I had many grievances but the foremost conditions I now put was that he would maintain relations with my parents and not drop and pick us up like a chauffeur at the gate and behave as if they did not exist.
He agreed even though most of the time he sits there like a rock of Gibraltar!
And opens the mouth only to stuff the goodies or when my father initiates a dialogue and draws him into a conversation...but come home he does!
Though the severity has subsided, the remarks sometimes continue...(lardh se keh raha hoon, as he says!)...so depending upon how much it is in lardh or otherwise, I either let go or give back in good measure.
I am no longer the murrawwat ki mari...he and his family have very well come to understand that...I get things done my way or settle scores there and then and close the chapter...
I earn my own upkeep and spend as I do...
If he can do as he pleases, so do I...
I no longer depend upon him for emotional or moral support...I am always ready with an alternative...so no more heart burns...but if an issue demands his attention, I make sure that he obliges...
I HAVE ALSO MADE CLEAR TO HIM THAT SHOULD SOMETHING GO WRONG NOW I WOULD STRAIGHT AWAY INITIATE PROCEEDINGS AND NOT APPROACH ANY FAMILY COUNSELLING CENTRE AS IN THE PAST...
He might have come back to save his skin (he is a government employee and the Indian law views a woman`s point of view with much sympathy) but it was basically out of his concern for the girls...
I too gave it another shot precisely for the same reason...

So there...I must be the first on chowk to have narrated her daastan-e-ghum at the first go!
I have no regrets though...dukh bantne se hi to kum hota hai...
And I have gained so much...
As most of you have wished, mein khush reh rahi hoon, I have learnt to be happy.
Thankyou, Ana for sharing a close personal tragedy...I am touched.
Thank you all once again...
Sameena Khan.

Sir/Madam.................................... I am for sympathy for dark people of India and pakistan. I am 55 years old chhap person white skin( Tuirkish type blood mixed with persian cream related to Aitulla Shariat Madani of Iran(Tabriz-azari blood) and feel one should prefer white than dark. Now it is all possible dark person has good mind but good mind is not good as people see dark person dark. Hindi movie song has said by Raja Kapoor (hindoo Punjabi white) `` hum hay kale fir bhi dilwale``. That is lafangebazi. Its trying to help poor dark people. Most important thing and trouble in life of man is get dark daughters married.I have lots of friends who have dark daughters and they are in troble.Due to mental pressure they die early due to worry for dark daughters while white daughter get married fast. Their daughters are not in demand in ``KME``. Let me explain KME= Karachi Marriage Exchange. Color is king,means White fair color is king. Just no demand and valuation is for black is realiastic and is low. I think is not right. But nothing is right in world. Some people are nasty and and say girl has every thing but she is dark and so no consideration. Now I do not have problem with friendship with dark people, I even serve not only dark but ugly looking drug dealers from Nigeria. No problem as they people people with money in our hotel but me or my wife can not think of marrying our daughters to these dark rich rich people. That is out of question, even my wife is on myside even though she is not good white like me and that shows she thinking even though she feels i am for color discrinmination. On other hand white color has great demand for boys and girls on KME. While marrying one should be careful as marrying down ( marrying darker than yourself) can give permanant headache of life. It is important to overcome silly feelings of love etc but look at color and money, love does not matter,it too abstract foolishness of mindless youthful fantancy.Any way marrying for love leeds to divorce. Some people marry for love, but they do not get love just sex. Some say man marry for sex and women marry for love and finally its big disappointment for both if they have dark children as they have to go on begging to get children married. And again dark grand children its problem. I read story by Shake pear called othello when my daughter went to collge at famous Univ in Karachi . This dark man was othello and he had wife desdimona or something like that. He was moor ( Dark hybrid like prince Bunder saudi, or Col kadaffi( He is smartest , abolished socislism and wants to discontinue membership of arab club limited) or like egypt sadat , mubarak etc. And all murder etc, woman can marry down( darker man) for problems and white woman mentally tortures blacker man. Fair woman shold be aware and afraid of blacker man as he is fantacizing about having whiter children. Very true.
I did not like message of article to blame white skinned people. What we have done? . I really felt bad when Coal Dark Altaf Bhai(50s) married Sindhi white (20) girl, for sindhi people. Its natural for darkies to want little less dark children but one should be careful.

My feeling is being equal go for milk than coal.
I think many liberal type people do not like that so I asked one of NGo TYPE why his all children marry white type. She was frank , said that is social principle for people to follow but she prefers qwhite in real life. Note liberal are filty rich though they love poors.

Usa is top dog and protector and well wisher of pakistan. Now Clinton was top dog of USA. Now he was for all black people. And Blacks loved him. He was for equality with blacks and appreciate blacks and he understands their pain etc.
Now look at his female lovers all White women. Even monka jew ok but she was white. I did research and was relieved this lover of blacks did not never touch a black women though he was Sexsaitan. Now he is sensible man, he is dishonest intelligent, student of MIT and berkley and england but even though he loved blacks prefered white women no black woman. Follow the leader.

Moral: Pay lip service and show anger for not preference for darkis, but in real life go for white.

Dear readers,
I did not expect my first effort to generate so much dialogue!
I might have given the impression of being a week-kneed, compromising woman of the East, so here it goes:
I approached the family counselling centre either for an honourable reconciliation or an amicable separation...I gave my husband the full liberty to keep the kids and not worry about any alimony or retalliatory proceedings from my side should he opt for separation...he opted for reconciliation.
I had many grievances but the foremost condition I know put was that he would maintain relations with my parents and not drop and pick us up like a chauffeur at the gate and behave as if they did not exist.
He agreed even though most of the time he sits there like a rock of Gibraltar!
And opens the mouth only to stuff the goodies or when my father initiates a dialogue and draws him into a conversation...but come home he does!
The remarks continue though the severity has subsided...if it does, I give him one look that otherwise would kill other lesser mortals or give him back in good measure.
I am no longer the murrawwat ki mari...he and his family have very well come to understand that...I get things done my way or settle scores there and then and close the chapter...
I earn my own upkeep and spend as I do...
If he can do as he pleases, so do I...
I no longer depend upon him for emotional or moral support...I am always ready with an alternative...so no more heart burns...but if an issue demands his attention, I make sure that he obliges...
I HAVE ALSO MADE CLEAR TO HIM THAT SHOULD SOMETHING GO WRONG NOW I WOULD STRAIGHT AWAY INITIATE PROCEEDINGS AND NOT APPROACH ANY FAMILY COUNSELLING CENTRE AS IN THE PAST...

I know he came back to save his skin for he is a government employee and the Indian law views a woman`s point of view with much sympathy.
I gave it another shot because of the girls...

Zahra,

Unfortunately, I personally know at least three educated South Asian women who did not leave their husbands after the husbands became abusive.

Dear Writer,

There is an interesting observation about this article that I cannot resist to put in black and white. It`s just an observation so the chances of being right or wrong are 50%. I think either someone is narrating a story on behalf of someone else or this has been put forth to get the readers` take. Whatever. The detective minds amongst us will have the tendency to learn about the real source. The rational or sometimes irrational will have a leaning to analyze and review the case study vs. pay much attention to who is what and where in this episode. The rest would only read as it is another contribution on Chowk, nothing less and nothing more. So, it`s kind of interesting to observe the various perspectives and their spin.

All this crap about Eastern Women are like that and Western are like that is talking about caves` mentality. I have seen great Westerners as well both amongst family and friends.
To them their marriage is equally important as to any other person. Some Eastern Women in general love to continue playing the role of a victim. Ideal example is of Tehmina Durrani. She stayed in the abusive marriage for as long as it could last. Why? To write a book later on? That`s why it`s important to stay 100 miles away from women who have no other purpose in life than serving at home, mainly because their whole focus is on the internal issues and do not allow themselves to see the outer world. Physical health is as important as the mental health. You can be in all the aerobics exercises that you want to but if you do not invoke your mind towards alertness, nothing will happen.

I have yet to know of any Eastern Woman properly equipped with education and a profession to live in misery. Even those who went through bad times in their first marriage did not stay in misery for more than 6-8 months. Most of the cases were semi-arranged and love marriages. But the most important part was their families, who stood by them through thick and thin. In fact, in all the cases, the families could not stand their daughters` mistreatment. Another aspect was that these were educated families who did not believe that their well put together daughters needed that crap in their lives. It was not that the daughters had their rukhsati and now they were some one else`s burden.

Yes, the word ``divorce`` did not sound very good to some of them initially. But that was not the end of life. It did not work out, it did not work out. People move on. Some have the scars from their past and those scars can be haunting. But by the grace of God, they were lucky to be with the right people going forward in their life that made them see the world differently. But again, no well educated Eastern Woman that I have known in my life put up with any male nonsense. And, the ones who fooled themselves thinking that their husbands will change later down the road ended up living in misery during the active life of the relationship. As soon as they declared a separation, the men were coming back begging. Also, none made the mistake of having any kids till they were with the right person.

Point is, it`s very much on the Eastern Woman to define the limits and not get carried away by any social nonsense. No one is going to come and lead anyone else`s life. You have to stand up for yourself if you want to get what you want. Please checkout a book that does not talk about the case study under discussion necessarily, but has some great points on life in general. And, it requires a lot of self discipline to re-evaluate your priorities all the time. It`s not an easy task. But the path is indeed worth treading :) ``Write it Down, Make it Happen.``

Another friend always comments that no secure woman should even pay a second glance to an insecure man. Ok, it`s important to marry, but it`s damn important to make a well calculated move. Marriage for the sake of marriage in this day and age is and should be a no no.

You only live once and you are entitled, repeat.... entitled to live the life that you desire. You ought to live and plan your life only with the person who understands and respects your outlook and you can conect to that person. If that`s not there then it`s just a sham. Basically, women`s own weaknesses make them suffer far more than anyone else`s mistreatment towards them.

Point to ponder.

Dear Ms. Sameena Khan,
I just read your article. I think your husband suffers from insecurities due to his deficiencies: my guess is that his weak resume you saw at time of marriage has improved since, and that is part of the problem. A self-confident person never has the need to put down other people or to routinely point out their ``flaws``. You on the other hand seem to be an open, competent person who relates well to people. So, his trying to put you down is his way of seeking control.

It seems that despite his putdowns and mean words, you have not let him convince you that you are anything other than the attractive and charming person that you are (the fact that he is jealous of your dressing up indicates this). I hope you will (if you dont do already) start going to the gym or if that is not possible start exercising every day - exercise is great for looks as well as for keeping one in good spirits. I have yet to meet a person (fair or dark, short or tall) who regularly exercises and does not look great. And that is on top of the obvious health affects. Not easy, but worth it.

Khan Sahib,

Most south asian famillies carry on in the west as they had in the east...which is the disconnection that the writer notes; at work she gets to be respected and appreciated while at home, she is expected to play a very traditional role. This is not uncommon.

My observation is that professional and motivated spouses, husband or wife, turn out to be more tolerant and considerate towards each other. Their mind is most of time involved in issues outside home and they have little time to bicker or fight on petty home issues.

Conversely rich and non-professionals, like the land lords etc, tend to be nasty.

No marriage is like a dream that every unmarried dreams of. It has conflicting moods, different backgrounds, a full picture of ugliness of each other, different tastes, perceptions, hopes, desires, different degree of beliefs not to speak of the mundaneness of bills, money, servants, relationship with outsiders, guests, in laws; or even each others toilet habits.

A western women has less inhibitions and can get off the hook whenever she likes.

An Eastern woman, socialy and economically insecure, with all legal system piled up against her mostly chooses to compromise and suffer. He another big weakness is the children.

Moral of the story is that each marriage has a lot in it that is not heavenly - Sameena is the best judge where she fits in into this complex jig-saw puzzle.

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ana:
must have been very painful indeed. its just so frustrating to watch a loved
one`s turmoil when u are unable to help or maybe your advice just isnt heeded.
people tend to have very clear ideas about how others should lead their lives,
they have an opinion about everything that the peson did wrong and should be
doing `this way`...but they never have an idea as to how THEY themselves should
be leading their lives. amazing paradox no? but i disgress....

everybody has advice as to what sameena should/should not be doing. but its not
always as easy as that. she is intelligent enough to figure out already the
stuff she has been advised to do /not do.

at the end of the day....the things which are hurtful remain with you in all of their sickening, nauseating clarity while the happy moments seem to wither and fade away into the back recesses of the mind and lose their significance. im sure life with this man hasnt been all downhill for sameena. she must have shared some special moments wid him too. he could very well be the person whose eyes she can meet in a crowded party and smile knowingly at something being said....or roll eyes together at a dumb joke...with the confidance that he understood what she meant without the need for her to be explicit.

he holds the keys to her past and present happinesses and pains if not the future. the reason why sameena is putting up wid her depraved hubby could be anything from her children to avoiding the stigma of a divorce, from not upsetting parents to avoiding the snide remarks she will undoubtedly have to face.

[ ///said by temporal
[B]…one thing is clear…if she was not living in india/pakistan but out in the west the decision would be far easier to take…simply because its fallout would reverberate less on her and the children…it is a tough and bitter decision in her search for elusive peace and harmony… [/B]]
exactly!!

or it could be a desire to battle it out. plus you never know u might find a guy worse than u are already stuck with.

(ahem! am i near the mark? should i take up psychiatry? :D )

as for me...i never wanted to get married. dunno if i ever will. but the fact remains that whether i want to or not....will be married by december this year (unless my will prevails)

why did i give in? my educated and completely enlightened parents were bowled over by how [B]`shareef`[/B] and [B]`acha`[/B] my fiance is. (what do u think? their criteria of selection should have been money or looks or somesuch thingie no? :D ) they were like happy, excited, jubilent kids. not only them but my dadi as well.
they had the `istakhara` done...it turned out great. i just didnt have the heart to say no. i still cant figure out why they were soooo happy. practically jumping all over the place. like kids whose `gudda` and `guddi` are about to tie the matrimonial knot.
since i had didnt want to marry ( but i gotta, i know...societal as well as peer pressure i suppose...cant remain unmarried ...blah blah blah) i might as well marry someone as Allah thinks it best for me to do. my reasons for agreeing were simple:
i was cowed by religion. since Allah knows whats best for me...who am i to refuse. how can i say that i will be happy with the person i choose myself? Allah knows whats best for me. blah blah blah.
now i cant back out coz it is unfair (!) to they guy so is oh-so-smitten by me (it would be a cold day in hell when i believe that :D )


[///posted by sameena
[B]When I stood up for my rights I was branded the villain of the piece...perhaps I should have done that from day one, but murawwat ki maari, I just went with the flow...by the time I realised I was being taken for granted, it was too late.
When I tried to get away I had to pay a heavy price...it had severe repercusions on my children`s psyche...they simply adore him...they are too young to understand why mama and dad can`t live together...they developed behavioural problems. Most of my writing reflects a slice of my life; if chowk continues to publish my contributions, perhaps you will gain a better insight into my plight. (Most well wishers thought I was foolish enough to take such a tough stand just because he derides my looks or is indifferent towards my parents!)[/B] ]

:(
scary.
now vat do i do?


ps. sowwy for the long, boring, irritating post.

How marriages stay successful??

How do successful couples mobilize positivity in their marriages? The following kept cropping up in their talk and their behaviour:

Showing interest. Successful couples showed active interest in their partners which was expressed both verbally and non-verbally. Partners knew that they were getting quality attention.

Showing affection. There was plenty of touching, hand holding, foot twining; couples offered each other reminders of happy or special times, and often expressed solidarity, affirming that they were a partnership or a team who tackle problems together and help each other. Most especially, they often told their partner that they loved them, or showed it by small acts of consideration. Affection is a stress buster.

Showing thoughtfulness has a remarkable power to boost positivity. It included buying small, meaningful gifts, or taking actions that show a partner that his or her spouse has been thinking about them, such as a phone call at work. Taking time to think about your partner`s day and what he or she is likely to be experiencing is the foundation of thoughtfulness.

Showing appreciation: its physical effect is the exact opposite of the emotional ``fight or flight`` flooding. We could say that appreciation floods your marriage with friendship, love and safety. It includes consciously thinking about positive aspects of your partner, dwelling on happy memories, and entertaining fond thoughts of your partner - especially when you are being tempted to float down the stream of anger and negativity, or when an argument is starting. Finding something to appreciate at that moment raises up a standard for the armies of love to follow, and they will overcome. Agreeing with your partner`s ideas and being supportive of his or her attempts to resolve problems, to be creative or to achieve a goal is also part of appreciation, as is the passing of sincere compliments and taking opportunities to express pride and joy in your partner and your marriage.

Showing Concern. This comes in when your partner is feeling down, bothered, under pressure. It means offering to talk it over; finding a way - preferred by them - to soothe ruffled feelings, and of course apologising if you`re part of the upset. Even if you aren`t prepared to take back what you said (if it was a fair, reasonable and respectful complaint), you can still show concern and regret for the hurt feelings, offering comfort and reassurance.

Showing Emotional Understanding. Human beings naturally show understanding or empathy by mirroring facial expressions, tone of voice and reflecting words. This is more difficult if the emotion your partner is expressing is something you yourself find threatening or uncomfortable. When rushing to head off an emotion, you cannot be empathic. Helping emotions find words or appropriate actions takes the steam out of them and leads to better coping all round.

Showing Acceptance. We won`t always agree with what our partner says, or like it either. But it is still possible to accept that their statements make sense and are important for them. This is part of a general ability to tolerate difference, and why is that so very hard? Are we experiencing a hangover from playground days when all friends had to think, act and talk just the same? Marriage is no place for childishness. Powerful ways to show acceptance include active listening, responses like ``I can see what you`re saying`` (with no ``but`` attached to that sentence), and giving your partner a respectfully -voiced summary of what they have just said to confirm that you have heard them correctly - before you go on to disagree vehemently.

Sharing laughter and fun. They are the medicines that ease tension and cement your alliance, the air in your balloon. Playful teasing, witty or silly comments, shared jokes, winks or glances, or just having lots of fun together is as oil and water are to a car - you`re much less likely to break down or boil over. However, there`s an important caution: humour is very open to abuse. Remember, the response you get tells you what you really said. It`s futile to back away, hands upraised, protesting ``But I was only joking`` - if your partner is upset, then whatever you thought you were doing, a sincere apology is called for.
Sharing joy is also a major part of successful marriages. This includes sharing positive feelings and personal successes with your partner, as well as taking time to remember and celebrate important occasions. Celebration, though, should not be confined to one or two occasions a year - there should be many occasions to celebrate, big and small, solemn and silly.

ana,

Unfortunately, too many of us are familliar with the kinds of emotional and physical abuse that take place in our communities. It ranges from blatant to insidious. I appreciate your raising some of the issues of emotional abuse, namely the consistant undermining of a wife/woman`s character, personality, wishes, desires and goals- not only by her husband, which is bad enough, but also by the extended family in which she marries into.

The fact that this undermining happens across class and religious lines needs to be remembered. Apna Ghar, Mannavi and Sakhi (all women support orgs in the US) maintain that abuse is widespread among the ``educated`` class; a woman can be a doctor and still be told she is nothing ny her spouse.

sameena,
this was an article that wasn`t easy to read, and not very easy to respond to. i think you`ve handled the situation quite well so far, but was it zahra who said that mental abuse is just as awful as physical abuse.
i hesitate to make my family life here visible for everyone at chowk to read...have dropped hints here and there, but suffice it to say that i have watched someone i love more than anyone or anything in the world go through both physical and mental abuse from her husband. this woman stayed with this man, even though some of her children wanted her to leave, because a) she loved him for some bizarre reason and b) she was afraid of losing her children. She was loyal to him, took care of him through the best and worst of times and after years and years of marriage, and continual psychological/emotional abuse on his part, he left her in her golden years for an amreekan woman.
why am i telling this story? some people have commented here on the lightness of this article, but while you may be attempting lightness here, the issue is quite serious. and having brought this to an open forum, you are getting all sorts of advice on what to do....you must do what your heart tells you to do, yes, but you must also do what is best for you and your children. and i won`t tell you what you should do, or what could happen if this continues. i think you`re a courageous woman, i`m glad that you were able to go back into the workforce, unfortunately that didn`t happen for the woman whose story i told. that does help. being appreciated outside of the home is great, but if you`re not appreciated for all that you are within the chardewari, then that is unfortunate.
i, myself, have decided not to marry any desi man who wants perfection in a woman, the perfect figure, no blemishes or disabilities, no dark skin. Being a physically `disabled` person myself, i have no time or inclination for such people, be they desi or pardesi.
thank you for sharing part of your life with us
all the very best to you,
~ana

p.s. and i hope you`ll keep coming to chowk.

Sameena, unfortunately as many of us have seen, life is not a fairy tale and many a times things take a turn for the worse.

However, sometimes the issues may stem from a lack of praise or appreciation rather than belittling a person. It may help if you reduce your expectation level, as lower expectations result in less pain and hurting.

Another way out of course is to lead your own life and try and remain as uninvolved as possible.

By the way as an aside let me tell you that some of the most attractive women that I have met have been dark(er) skinned.

My apologies for misreading this article; it is alot more serious than my initial understanding of it.

Sameena,

You must do what fulfills you. I am unwilling to give free and fast advice, but it sounds like you are distinguishing yourself in your workplace-more power to you. The rest, what you need to do, will follow.

Nasah Bhai,

There it is, the reality of the begum...just needed to keep it real over here on Chowk...

My apologies for misreading this article; it is alot more serious than my initial understanding of it.

Sameena,

You must do what fulfills you. I am unwilling to give free and fast advice, but it sounds like you are distinguishing yourself in your workplace-more power to you. The rest, what you need to do, will follow.

Nasah Bhai,

There it is, the reality of the begum...just needed to keep it real over here on Chowk...

sameena:

this is sad… so sad…wish you had just written a fictional piece…then it would have been easier to discuss…now there is a real person and the situation becomes all too real…

…please allow me the liberty to discuss this in the third person only…

here is an overview:

---married seven years
---two children
---feel appreciated at work and put down at home
---not clear if the hubby has other hang-ups
(perhaps earns less money, has no job, is a mamma’s boy)
---lives in india (this could be pakistan too)
---there are no hints at physical abuse
---children love daddy
---relations with inlaws strained (why? income or class disparity?)

summation:

she is desperately looking for long haul solutions but cannot find any…in her heart she knows this cannot last long…hints at strained relations with extened family…they may or may not be of much help…do they have any other social or volunteer network or even common friends?…not clear…

…if verbal abusing does not stop this will eventually lead to separation…two biggest stumbling blocks are children…we are told they love their dad…and hints at past separation that affected the children adversely…one important and additional factor to consider here is what will affect the children more adversely…growing up in a separated but realistic worldl way or growing up in that abusive atmosphere and learn all the wrong lessons?…and the second block is duniya or log kya kahaiN gay…

…one thing is clear…if she was not living in india/pakistan but out in the west the decision would be far easier to take…simply because its fallout would reverberate less on her and the children…it is a tough and bitter decision in her search for elusive peace and harmony…

sorry for this long post and for referring to you in third person…

...t

Samina,
First I thought this was at least partially fiction, but after reading other readers` comments and ur responses to them, I am not so sure. Is this the same husband u wrote the first article about, who loved u unconditionally, allowed u to pursue ur career with no questions asked, even when u had to live away fr him, was proud of ur accomplishments, used to introduce u to his superiors with pride and was ur hero,friend, soul mate etc? Now u r saying he abused u mentally all this time? Now which one is fact and which one fiction or r u just trying to make a point and using some exagerration to get there?
In either case u r a great writer.
Raja

Ok, let me get this straight - are you trying to tell us that the dark skinned and bhootni type girls become fair-skinned cinderellas when they start working a job? It means that women have finally found the ultimate potion of beauty; is it? Then what will happen to Fair & Lovely, and Medora of London, and that soap which gives all actresses face a liposuction? They are soon gonna be out of business. And one more question. Why this potion has an opposite effect on men. Those men who work their ass off become bald and pot-bellied and not hunks and prince charming. What about them.

I agree with hamim2 on this one.

This was a very interesting window into the life of a Desi woman.


Ras

re: this article
This is a very sensitive and thought provoking article. It arrested my attention because it seemed to come from the heart.
My unsolicited advice to Sameena would be to spend more time with whatever gives you happiness. If Work makes you happy, spend more time there and let your hubby wonder what is happening to you. Let him be tormented with the thought that may be you are having an affair!
I am against arranged marriages. They belong to another age when it was difficult for men and women to socialise. In this day and age, even in India, arranged marriage should be given a decent burial, especially by educated men and women.
Sridhar

re:#35 by stuka
There are a lot of women who are very traditional and would continue to take abuse for the sake of their children or not have the courage to walk out of an abusive marriage. Haven`t we heard of dowry deaths? It took one phone call by a Delhi girl to bring this problem to the attention of the media and public, but how many have that kind of courage?
Sridhar

Sameena,
Where are your families in all this? Surely they can try to patch things up? How about the usual route - counseling for yourselves and the children. If you cannot stay together, you could make an effort to continue to be joint parents where they will not miss him or suffer serious emotional distress. From your side of the story anyway it sounds like you`re being emotionally abused. You need to protect yourself and you also need to protect your children from emotional harm resulting from your separation. So long as they have easy access to their father they may adjust well to the new situation. Your husband will be free to find a ``pretty`` woman for himself...

Sameena: your post came as a shock. I had previously assumed the piece to be the delicious work of a very clever writer but I see now that`s not all it. The person who now emerges from your writing is an intelligent and deeply sensible woman caught in terrible circumstances. The man is obviously a cruel little idiot.
I`m not going to give you any advice, especially since I can`t, but I think you`re a very brave woman. Khuda aapko khush rakhay.

sameena khan -- great write up -- welcome to our dusty Chowk

question:

how did u end up and continue to end up -- with this KKK loser? -- it`s all ur fault:-)
__________________________________
a question for hamnaam Saminasha -- saw ur bio -- very impressive -- it reads as follows:

List:

1. Clean out closets
2. Pack up winter clothes/make old clothes into rags
3. Organize paperwork
a. academic
b. bills
c. legal
d. writing
e. articles
4. clean the floors
5. Dust/polish furniture
5. Clean blinds with pine cleaner
6. Gather laundry
7. Sweep floors
8. Mop kitchen floor
9. Bathroom, sweep and mop
10. Throw out garbage
11. bind Sunday`s papers for recycling
12. Make dinner
13. Study Carson book; take notes for paper .....

so the question IS -- if u do all of these:

1. Clean out closets
2. Pack up winter clothes/make old clothes into rags
4. clean the floors
5. Dust/polish furniture
5. Clean blinds with pine cleaner
6. Gather laundry
7. Sweep floors
8. Mop kitchen floor
9. Bathroom, sweep and mop
10. Throw out garbage
11. bind Sunday`s papers for recycling
12. Make dinner

.... then what ur pampered `lazy-half` does :-)

After Sameena`s Post # 39, I cancel my post # 40. These came simultaneously.

There seems to be a ring of seriousness in the article.

Studebakers`s Post # 41 also refers.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Dear readers,
I was facing server problems but was desperate to get in touch with you all, so I requested the chowk staff to post my response...
What can I say? You have all overwhelmed me once again.
Your empathy and correct analysis of my predicament has touched my heart and almost brought tears to my ears.
It makes me happy to know that you could discern the sadness, pain, agony, hurt, irony/tragedy hidden behind an otherwise light and humourous article.
Thankyou for your suggestions, advice and best wishes.
Thankyou too for appreciating my writing skill...I was very apprehensive on that score!

It is very demoralising to be reminded time and again that your worth depends on a mere pigment that goes by the name of melanin...my soul seems to scream that dammit, there is more to me than the mere complexion of my skin! The fact is, as SameerJB has correctly deduced, he might be scoring over me in looks but I score over him in most other aspects...he knows that too...that is the problem...I guess the only way he can get even is by attacking my most vulnerable point...he knows I am sensitive about my looks so he hits where it hurts most...

I have tried both the remedies suggested by SR. When I stood up for my rights I was branded the villain of the piece...perhaps I should have done that from day one, but murawwat ki maari, I just went with the flow...by the time I realised I was being taken for granted, it was too late.
When I tried to get away I had to pay a heavy price...it had severe repercusions on my children`s psyche...they simply adore him...they are too young to understand why mama and dad can`t live together...they developed behavioural problems. Most of my writing reflects a slice of my life; if chowk continues to publish my contributions, perhaps you will gain a better insight into my plight. (Most well wishers thought I was foolish enough to take such a tough stand just because he derides my looks or is indifferent towards my parents!)

But it did not start this way...I had a fairy tale wedding...I used to thank Allah miyan time and again for answering my prayers...he had given me what I wanted in my companion, my husband. Then circumstances, in-house influences played their part and I lost out on my luck...nazar lagayi as all my cousins say.
If only he could respect me and acknowledge my positive traits and maintain a healthy, affectionate relationship with my parents, life would be bliss...if only he could for I don`t ask for more...
Till then, I have you all...my extended family...I am glad I started browsing chowk and discovered a whole new world.
Thanks again for reading my article and sparing your valuable time and precious thoughts.
Sameena Khan.

Chowkees - Please

Samina has just put her thoughts across. May be it is better if we stick to the contents of the article. Every writer puts in a bit of drama and spice into the article to make it interesting and enjoyable. It is not her biography. And she did not write it to get marital advice from us.

My submission would be to always delink the writer from his/her writing. And give only our analysis/views on the writing.

Sameena,

Either you are an interesting person or your write-up was written in a different stride or there is a missing link that is not easily visible to the readers` naked eye.

Based on your write-up, I think you are a fairly confident individual. One of the most important thing that must exist in any relationship is the sensitivity towards each other. No one is perfect but there are some great points that are reminded to a reader when they read the scripture on bonding and its essence. Some people follow the salient features of that essence, whereas some do not even pay much attention to it.

This is not the first time I came across this kind of an episode, but every individual is an episode as well. As one of my dearest friends says, ``Marriage is like a plant and you have to constantly take care of it. If you lose sight of the health of the plant and its growth there is no way it`s going to radiate the special light effects.`` She has been married for over 30 years and I was surprised to hear that the couple would ask each other on the current status of their marriage. This was just an off the cuff information that she shared years back and it was very appealing to me.

Based on my observations, I very strongly believe in the following:

- No woman should live in an abusive relationship. Abuse does not need to be physical abuse. Mental abuse is even worse. I have known of a few cases who fell in the latter category and got the hell out of those marriages. They remarried in a year or so, and are very content in their relationships.

- The women who tolerate men with multiple syndromes are doing immense injustice to themselves.

Taking a step back, I would add that I am not sure of your intent for bringing this ``Bhootni`` tazkara repeatedly. If you are willing to address this then you need to take the bull by its horn vs writing a katha kahani on the emotional maltreatment you are receiving. From your response it appeared as if you need a suggestion on how to handle that. There is a theory about people known as Theory X and Theory Y.

Theory X says that people are bad and should not be trusted.

Theory Y says that people should be given the benefit of doubt and they are not bad inherently.

The above is commonly mentioned in managing the communication aspect in project management, but is equally applicable to communication in all aspects of our life. I think you consider him falling under the theory Y category. Since you have not mentioned any other mistreatment except for this mental abuse. I would conclude that physically you only live once in life (some people have other views about it) so you should address and resolve your issues daily. It took another friend almost 10 years to have open communication with her husband, who is a very nice guy, but this friend was not comfortable with having an open channel of communication out there. After 10 years, she realized the value of this guy who is the father of her two maddening sons. She pursued her residence after 10 years and the husband has been taking care of the kids. Point is realizing the issue is great, but taking a step to eliminate the issue off your chest is superb.

Regards,

Z

This is great writing. I have been a silent member of this website for quite sometime now, but only few very interesting articles have made me write something. I really love this piece of writing. True, Real and something