The Conversion Chiaroscuro

#78 rsridhar
Traditions are just that. They are not based on need. You probably didn`t know anyone who died a ``dowry death`` or was sexually molested or abused. Does that mean these things don`t exist? As they say, the cat closed its eyes and thought it was night time...
Since even a student could observe the apparent effects of close marriage, it surely must have been studied with respect to tamils & brahmins. Why don`t you post something to that effect?

Harimau:
I cannot decide which is worse: your reading comprehension or your crudeness in refering to Farzana the you have been. You`re a coward to hide behind the anonymity of the board while making fun of her name.

godot:stability leashes you; homogeneity is linear and boring - it makes you take slow calculated steps when you want to skip (a beat?)...

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Farzana, homogeneity is stable.

bharat natyam and conversion:
Back in the 1950s the name most associated with Bharat Natyam was Indrani Rehman. From the name it would appear that she was a Hindu married to a Muslim. If so, her devotion to Hindu gods did not prevent her from marrtying a muslim.

re: bharata-natyam versus religion
Talking of sheema Kirmani, she is both a Kathak and bharata-natyam dancer.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2001/20010822/edit.htm#8

``Kirmani studied classical dance forms in India with Leela Samson of the Kalakshetra, Mayadhar Raut at the Bhartiya Kala Kendra in Delhi and returned in 1990 on a one-year scholarship to train under Guru Aloka Pannikar at Art Kendra, also in New Delhi.``
Leela Samson is a bharata-natyam dancer. Kala Kshetra is the institute set up by Rukmini Arundale and is kind of a trend setter in this form of dance tho` there are other dance institutes and exponents who do not necessarily like Kalakshetra.
Ms Kirmani faced the classic charge which one would expect a Pakitani artist to face. Her dance was dubbed unislamic by Zia-ul-Haq. Her`s is an epic struggle against all odds. How did Bharata-natyam become unislamic? How was Zia qualified to say what is islamic and what is not? One has to ask Zia but unfortunately he is not around. Meanwhile art scenario suffered a lot in Pak.
A lot of Krishna imagery and symbolism exists in both Kathak and Natyam mainly because Krishna as an icon is very popular. Krishna the playboy, krishna the truant child who breaks pots and steals butter and so on. All these have been sung into songs and woven into dance forms in the past. In Islam, symbolism is discouraged,so it is impossible to get any islamic theme into a dance form. Christianity is waking up recently but it too had discouraged symbolism in the past. Dance is a way of artistic expression and has nothing to do with religion.
Sridhar

Convert shanvert who gives a .... oops my apologies a lot of people apparently - judging from the responses. Well all I care is that this time when I go to India my muslim cousin better get married (preferable at the same place where his elder brother did)....Ah the food..Yummm..

Ref FarzanaVersey on #87

[Some people have been nitpicking that if my niece learned Bharat Natyam then why did she talk about Krishna, who is celebrated in Kathak.]

Tales of Krishna are told in Bharatha Natyam too; Krishna is not the sole possession of North Indians. ``Krishna Nee Begane Baro`` (``Krishna, Come Quickly``) , ``Thaye Yasodha`` (O, Mother Yasodha``), ``Theeratha Vilayattu Pillai`` (``Endlessly Playful Child``) are all songs to which Bharatha Natyam dancers dance.

I think I have mentioned earlier that there was a dance ``arangetram`` (first public performance) by a male Muslim dancer in Chennai who chose songs dedicated to Nature to avoid any possibility of paying obeisance to Hindu gods.

Alarmel Valli performed in the US recently. Except for the invocatory piece, all songs were selected from the Tamil anthology Pura Nanooru (400 Poems of the External World) which don`t reference any gods. It is entirely possible to dance Bharatha Natyam without reference to any Hindu gods, though personally I think it will be fun to see how may seconds a dancer can balance himself/herself on one foot when dancing to a song about Siva Nataraja such as ``Natanam Adinar`` (He Danced``).

PS. Zafar Al-Talib, Valli fan, eat your heart out.

I have no idea where some of the stuff is coming from, but as people have been honest enough to admit that they are going by my previous articles, I suppose I should have expected this.

My position is against conversions, and I have stated it in an earlier post. That is the crux. And it applies to Kamala Das’ to Islam as much as Didi’s to Hinduism. And yes, there will be two sides, two warm stories, a lot of twos in life. I was/am clear about this. If anyone wants to probe and impute motives, it reveals more about them than about me.

Re. this article: One has been born, bred and lived in India all along, and I am fairly confident about Indian mythology not to confuse my culture with religion. However, Bharat Natyam was a temple dance form.(The Pakistani, Sheema Kirmani, is a Kathak dancer.) People are learning it (and if my mother had my way, I would have too…so why did I not? Was I ‘communal’ even as a child? Heck, I did not want anything to intrude into my playtime…). But it does have a religious base – invoking certain gods. Some people have been nitpicking that if my niece learned Bharat Natyam then why did she talk about Krishna, who is celebrated in Kathak. I don’t see how it is assumed that every member of my family walks only on one track! She was obviously being taught about various deities, and anyone with access to even Amar Chitra Katha comics can gather enough information. Besides, Kamala Das, a South Indian, too speaks about
Krishna…For that matter, we have been provided an enlightened reason here itself: “Perhaps your Didi didn`t want her daughter to think of herself as a child bride to Prophet Muhammad. Sometimes, reality is too harsh to contemplate.” So there…

Was Didi forced into Hinduism? I wrote in post #38: “In India, even among educated urban families, the girl is always co-opted, whether she converts or not. Didi probably converted to fulfill her mother-in-law’s wish, but having never lived in the joint family and in fact in an open society, I could not understand her attitude. It does not appear that she resents it at all. In fact, she is clearly anti-Islamic as seen from the Western point of view.”

I believe that cross-cultural marriages should result in osmosis, and that is why I am disappointed with my cousin. And her alone. In her absence, we stay in touch with her in-laws and share a warm relationship with them. Please understand, with them it is understood that they are the ‘other’ as we are for them, so the expectations are not fuzzy.

When I mentioned the family’s attempt at trying to appreciate idlis etc as delicacies, it was not arrogance. Come on, I don’t know many Muslims who can do without meat and if anything I was looking on wryly at my family and not at the other family or their food, which I personally relish. But all those many years ago, the only avenue for such food was in homes of people or Udipi restaurants…it is a matter of exposure. If a Brahmin were to look at a plate of biryani with disgust I would perfectly understand it. So, stop implying that “you seem to be saying that Hindus are bizarre, whether born or made!” There has been no reference about my pulling up Kamala Das and wondering whether Allah would ever come to her rescue. It is not kosher to acknowledge this from me, right?

Re. author: She is touched that Chowk interactors ‘know’ her so well. She writes about the ills in Indian society, and she is seen as a pro-Pakistani jihadi; she writes about being an Aga Khani and she is said to be an “aadha mussalman”; and she writes about her Hindu connection and we get the great analysis, “But what Farzana is really looking for is approval from the Hindu side of audience. Or, more accurately a proof that she cannot get approval ever from the ‘other’ side.” So, taking all this into account, the author will never get approval from any side and spend the rest of her life rearranging spoons. (Never mind that author occasionally likes to use her fingers while eating…she will rearrange her hands, no problem….)

Btw, “obsessional neurotic” is tautology. Just neurotic or obsessive would do. Thank you.

If anyone is interested, this is an excerpt from an old column of mine in Rediff (http://www.rediff.com/style/jun/16farz.htm):

``Secularism, in our contemporary context, is not a virtue. It is a Necessity. It should be propagated in the same way as family planning, self-reliance, ecology, health care and adult education, instead of a morally right position.

Those who marry across religions must be given similar privileges as those reserved for the scheduled castes and tribes. Their offspring should be provided state backup, whether in education, health or taxation. In fact, the state must encourage private elite institutions where these children can be educated without being tainted by our national obsession with party vengeance.``

[#69 by AlephNull on June 27, 2003 7:05pm PT
...One cannot restrict the activity of persuasion – in any domain - without limiting the right to free speech, which underlies all free societies. ]

I think so some restriction on acts of persuasuion should be put. They should not be coercive or terroristic. I would certainly not want to live in fear if I ask a proselytizing priest (accosting me on road or pestering me at my own home) to go away. I think so all preaching on public roads should be banned. I do not see such bans as limiting free speech. A preacher may preach on TV or private halls, he may advertise in newspaper but should never be allowed to be public nuisance.

[#83 by rsridhar on June 28, 2003 10:58am PT
Thanx for posting the lyrics. Simply beautiful. Goes to show how versatile Sahir was. He had good command of Hindi despite being a Urdu poet.
Only one correction. I believe (if my memory serves me well) the song is from Sariswatichandra and not Chitralekha. I may be wrong. ]

The song is from Chitralekha. That much I am very very sure. Besides the credit info was from the website from where I got the lyrics. So it was not like I was making an error in recalling. I found same credits elsewhere also.

Probably Saraswatichandra song you are confusing this with is probably following:

Chhod De Saari Duniya Kissi Ke Liye

Ultimately conversion represents ``separation anxiety``. Person converting is thought as leaving children of her former religion. Like a mother abondoning her children.

All communications which are by design and intention ``kind of, sort of`` broadcast communications are unltimately communication to mother. All show of maturity is like saying to mother: ``Look ma, no hands`` like you would say when you perform a magic trick to impress your mother. In this piece also Farzana makes a show of maturity. She knows Brat, Saminsha etc will declare her piece as great, enlightening, interesting blah blah. But what Farzana is really looking for is approval from the Hindu side of audience. Or, more accurately a proof that she cannot get approval ever from the ``other`` side.

Also here is a half hearted attempt to combine two stories which fails. They are becoming ``two warm stories`` instead. Farzana will continue writing such pieces for ever and ever attempting to combine two stories but like an obsessional neurotic who keeps rearranging spoons on dining table and who becomes disturbed when slightest disorder is percieved when entire rearranging must re-begin... Just like that neurotic she will continue writing such ``two stories``.