The Conversion Chiaroscuro
Farzana Versey June 30, 2003
#35 Posted by harimau on June 25, 2003 12:50:30 pm
Ref dost-mittar #28
[In my ideal world, religious conversion would be like voting in an election, one could change one`s mind about one`s religion several times in one`s life as one`s thinking evolves...]
Except that, electing to become a Muslim is like electing Communists to power. That would be the last free election in either case!
[In my ideal world, religious conversion would be like voting in an election, one could change one`s mind about one`s religion several times in one`s life as one`s thinking evolves...]
Except that, electing to become a Muslim is like electing Communists to power. That would be the last free election in either case!
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#34 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on June 25, 2003 12:50:30 pm
Farzana
Whether people hate your guts or they like you, they all get deeply involved in what you write.
That is the best compliment a writer can get.
What you write does not require any editing or clipping - it is its spontanity and honesty that gives it its inner power.
#33 Posted by tahmed32 on June 25, 2003 12:50:29 pm
For a woman to discard her religion in order to marry someone does not tell me anything about the woman. It tells me a lot about the man - it tells me that he neither understands what religion is all about, nor does he love his wife enough to insist that she retain her religion. So, in both cases, the men were lowlife.
PS: the article is written in a confusing manner, and i couldnt figure out which way this conversion took place until i skimmed through a few posts and realized we were talking two different marriages...i think...
PS: the article is written in a confusing manner, and i couldnt figure out which way this conversion took place until i skimmed through a few posts and realized we were talking two different marriages...i think...
#32 Posted by friend on June 25, 2003 12:50:29 pm
Dost#28,
I fully agree with your post. However, I remember reading about 2 occassions when contrary opinion was not permitted. One of them is in Mahabharat.
I fully agree with your post. However, I remember reading about 2 occassions when contrary opinion was not permitted. One of them is in Mahabharat.
#31 Posted by dullabhatti on June 25, 2003 11:02:27 am
Dost ji: Actually quite a few people are learning and teaching classical Indian dances and singing in California. A magazine, India Currents, in California has more than a dozen ads for such schools and teachers. I am sure someone is learning.
#30 Posted by dullabhatti on June 25, 2003 10:52:03 am
This time it much better Farzana - although - a bit emotional. Highlights some of issues related to conversions very well.
The gem to take home is in Dost-mittar`s post below and I agree 100%.
``I believe my right to convert myself to another religion is a fundamental human right, but not my right to convert others.``
The gem to take home is in Dost-mittar`s post below and I agree 100%.
``I believe my right to convert myself to another religion is a fundamental human right, but not my right to convert others.``
#29 Posted by jay on June 25, 2003 7:35:53 am
MADHAVIKUTTY,
I lived through the days of ``my story`` in india, the days of ``my god died young`` by shahty brata, i dont know where he is now. I knew the hell that my story created, I knew her husband, a senior officer at that time in reserve bank of india, and this woman will not stop at anything to be contraversial. After the death of her husband, having a great social life in the circuits of bombay, madhavikutty became the muslim, to be contraversial as farzana says, to fake an orgasm, this time a geriatric one. Daughter of lailtambika antharjanam, the top cate namdoodiris daughter, daughter of a great peotess and writer, has to do it all again. There is no aspect of religion in her conversion, it is all to be in the lime light.
I lived through the days of ``my story`` in india, the days of ``my god died young`` by shahty brata, i dont know where he is now. I knew the hell that my story created, I knew her husband, a senior officer at that time in reserve bank of india, and this woman will not stop at anything to be contraversial. After the death of her husband, having a great social life in the circuits of bombay, madhavikutty became the muslim, to be contraversial as farzana says, to fake an orgasm, this time a geriatric one. Daughter of lailtambika antharjanam, the top cate namdoodiris daughter, daughter of a great peotess and writer, has to do it all again. There is no aspect of religion in her conversion, it is all to be in the lime light.
#28 Posted by samankhan on June 25, 2003 7:35:53 am
Ms. Farzana,
A delicate as well as a controversial topic to handle but you have handled it well.
A person should convert if only he/she believes in it and not for any other reason whatsoever or else he/she would be insulting two religions as you have rightly said.
To discard the religion one was born into to marry another from a different religion speaks volumes about the character of the person, doesn`t it?.
If he/she could be disloyal to his/her deity couldn`t he/she be so to a mere human?
A close relative of mine is married to a Kashmiri Pandit; he converted to Islam...only on the paper...he has not openly declared his conversion nor taken the new name for it would hinder his career prospects! He doesn`t practice the religion at home either for his brother lives with them and his family is still in the dark about his conversion and he cannot risk disclosure even if it means the brother stays put for the rest of his life!
When his parents come visiting they rightfully perform all pujas and celebrate all festivals...how or whether or not he avoids them is still unknown...whether my relative is included in the rituals or not remains unknown...
The couple does not have children...intentional or otherwise...we don`t know...I guess they are contemplating which religion their offspring will follow or what names to give them...Hindu or Muslim?!
Just goes to show that he could neither be true to one nor do justice to the other...
Samankhan
A delicate as well as a controversial topic to handle but you have handled it well.
A person should convert if only he/she believes in it and not for any other reason whatsoever or else he/she would be insulting two religions as you have rightly said.
To discard the religion one was born into to marry another from a different religion speaks volumes about the character of the person, doesn`t it?.
If he/she could be disloyal to his/her deity couldn`t he/she be so to a mere human?
A close relative of mine is married to a Kashmiri Pandit; he converted to Islam...only on the paper...he has not openly declared his conversion nor taken the new name for it would hinder his career prospects! He doesn`t practice the religion at home either for his brother lives with them and his family is still in the dark about his conversion and he cannot risk disclosure even if it means the brother stays put for the rest of his life!
When his parents come visiting they rightfully perform all pujas and celebrate all festivals...how or whether or not he avoids them is still unknown...whether my relative is included in the rituals or not remains unknown...
The couple does not have children...intentional or otherwise...we don`t know...I guess they are contemplating which religion their offspring will follow or what names to give them...Hindu or Muslim?!
Just goes to show that he could neither be true to one nor do justice to the other...
Samankhan
#27 Posted by dost_mittar on June 25, 2003 7:35:53 am
Dear Farzana:
I really enjoyed reading this:
``Where is the young girl standing naked in front of the mirror, every curve with expectation, skin slithering before the eyes, appraising every little texture, the light fuzz standing on edge? Where is the woman who tasted the honey on another’s lips or bared a breast for a man behind a bush? Where is the wife who tried all the wiles to get her husband and then, frustrated, went to others without trying? Where is the poet who wrote her lines like hot iron off the fire? Where is that model of hope who, even at an old age, left her hair loose, the black curls dripping water, the scent of jasmine embedded in their darkness? Where is the gutsy lady of the dark night of so many souls who licked her own wounds and like a bitch in heat went back for more? Where is she who spoke about these things as though they were so natural, and they were natural, but society has made them seem dirty enough that they have to be covered up``
Powerful words!
On the subject, I have rather strong views on religious conversions. I approve the way Kamla Das converted; even if it was a publicity stunt to rekindle her career, as some claimed, it was a mature decision taken by a mature person after fully thinking out the consequences of her actions. I do not approve the way Didi converted because I do not believe that marriage should lead to a change in one`s faith.
I believe my right to convert myself to another religion is a fundamental human right, but not my right to convert others.
In my ideal world, religious conversion would be like voting in an election, one could change one`s mind about one`s religion several times in one`s life as one`s thinking evolves (hopefully, they will all become Buddhists in the end:-)). In such a world, religion would be no big deal but metaphysics/philosophy would be. In this ideal world, we would all be born without any faith and choose our faith (or no-faith) as we grow older. It seems to me that India did, in fact, have approximately such a system until the advent of Islam in the country which made us all Hindus. There were several faiths and no one tried to impress its superiority on another. And for the scholarly and the curious, there were rigorous debates where scholars debated the merits and demerits of various philosophies. Faith was the opium the masses needed and philosophy the nourishment for the minds of the scholars. But with the advent of Islam, faith became a one-way street which shut down all debates about metaphysics with the concept of blasphemy.
Unfortunately, we are not living in an ideal world and religion means more, a LOT more than just one`s faith. It`s a force that divides people into mutually antagonistic and potentially hostile identities. It changes people`s worldview, resulting in divisions of countries or creating new ones. In the current situation, when I convert, I am taking a decision not only for myself but on behalf of my future progeny as well. Thus, taking an example from another board, one sayyed came to India 70 generations ago and there are now between 20-50 million sayyeds on the subcontinent. So, one man`s decision 70 generations ago effectively denied the freedom of choice of religion to several millions. It is this demographic and rigid aspect of religious conversions which causes such consternation to the majority community in India. After all, Jinnah and Iqbal were both relatively recent converts, weren`t they?
Incidentally, your example of your didi`s daughter really surprised me. She must be the only North American girl learning Bharat Natyam or any other Indian classical dance (including at least two muslim girls in Ottawa alone!) who thinks that Krishna is her husband.
I really enjoyed reading this:
``Where is the young girl standing naked in front of the mirror, every curve with expectation, skin slithering before the eyes, appraising every little texture, the light fuzz standing on edge? Where is the woman who tasted the honey on another’s lips or bared a breast for a man behind a bush? Where is the wife who tried all the wiles to get her husband and then, frustrated, went to others without trying? Where is the poet who wrote her lines like hot iron off the fire? Where is that model of hope who, even at an old age, left her hair loose, the black curls dripping water, the scent of jasmine embedded in their darkness? Where is the gutsy lady of the dark night of so many souls who licked her own wounds and like a bitch in heat went back for more? Where is she who spoke about these things as though they were so natural, and they were natural, but society has made them seem dirty enough that they have to be covered up``
Powerful words!
On the subject, I have rather strong views on religious conversions. I approve the way Kamla Das converted; even if it was a publicity stunt to rekindle her career, as some claimed, it was a mature decision taken by a mature person after fully thinking out the consequences of her actions. I do not approve the way Didi converted because I do not believe that marriage should lead to a change in one`s faith.
I believe my right to convert myself to another religion is a fundamental human right, but not my right to convert others.
In my ideal world, religious conversion would be like voting in an election, one could change one`s mind about one`s religion several times in one`s life as one`s thinking evolves (hopefully, they will all become Buddhists in the end:-)). In such a world, religion would be no big deal but metaphysics/philosophy would be. In this ideal world, we would all be born without any faith and choose our faith (or no-faith) as we grow older. It seems to me that India did, in fact, have approximately such a system until the advent of Islam in the country which made us all Hindus. There were several faiths and no one tried to impress its superiority on another. And for the scholarly and the curious, there were rigorous debates where scholars debated the merits and demerits of various philosophies. Faith was the opium the masses needed and philosophy the nourishment for the minds of the scholars. But with the advent of Islam, faith became a one-way street which shut down all debates about metaphysics with the concept of blasphemy.
Unfortunately, we are not living in an ideal world and religion means more, a LOT more than just one`s faith. It`s a force that divides people into mutually antagonistic and potentially hostile identities. It changes people`s worldview, resulting in divisions of countries or creating new ones. In the current situation, when I convert, I am taking a decision not only for myself but on behalf of my future progeny as well. Thus, taking an example from another board, one sayyed came to India 70 generations ago and there are now between 20-50 million sayyeds on the subcontinent. So, one man`s decision 70 generations ago effectively denied the freedom of choice of religion to several millions. It is this demographic and rigid aspect of religious conversions which causes such consternation to the majority community in India. After all, Jinnah and Iqbal were both relatively recent converts, weren`t they?
Incidentally, your example of your didi`s daughter really surprised me. She must be the only North American girl learning Bharat Natyam or any other Indian classical dance (including at least two muslim girls in Ottawa alone!) who thinks that Krishna is her husband.
#26 Posted by Inquirer on June 25, 2003 7:35:53 am
# 17, studebaker: You are incorrectly responding.
To all: Why people in general get converted is not the issue here. We need to discuss what positions exist for someone who coverts back. Evidently, one has to clearly document why any particular person got converted. Then what did a person get from the conversion or what that person did to solidify the bridges between two religios groups. Now what has changed - from the convert`s point of view - to try another conversion. That is why I asked in #13 about presenting the statuses of the feelings of the Didi and suggested deemphasis on Farzana`s emotional reactions. Hard to get because the information flow channels are in her control.
Hopefully, this will also supply information to #18, saminasha. Even in #13 I had provided specific evaluations of the emotional vs. rational descriptions. Now, don`t take me wrong, there is nothing wrong in emotionalized writing. It is perfectly legitimate to do it and enjoy it. But you should not do it for a group discussion. Men (not all, but usually) do the boring rational writing things because they have learnt from lot of waylaid discussions that emotionalized wrting does not contribute to clear exchange of thoughts.
To all: Why people in general get converted is not the issue here. We need to discuss what positions exist for someone who coverts back. Evidently, one has to clearly document why any particular person got converted. Then what did a person get from the conversion or what that person did to solidify the bridges between two religios groups. Now what has changed - from the convert`s point of view - to try another conversion. That is why I asked in #13 about presenting the statuses of the feelings of the Didi and suggested deemphasis on Farzana`s emotional reactions. Hard to get because the information flow channels are in her control.
Hopefully, this will also supply information to #18, saminasha. Even in #13 I had provided specific evaluations of the emotional vs. rational descriptions. Now, don`t take me wrong, there is nothing wrong in emotionalized writing. It is perfectly legitimate to do it and enjoy it. But you should not do it for a group discussion. Men (not all, but usually) do the boring rational writing things because they have learnt from lot of waylaid discussions that emotionalized wrting does not contribute to clear exchange of thoughts.
#24 Posted by slink on June 25, 2003 12:30:22 am
farzana,
interesting, emotive writing. made me think of a lot of things...not necessarily related.
on conversion, when i was a kid my mother told us that when people asked what religon she was we should say she had converted. she was roman catholic when she married my sunni muslim punjabi father. i didn`t understand why then, but as we got older kids started asking. they were obviously repeating the questions their parents had but were unable to ask her or my father directly at pta meetings etc. i didn`t then and still dont understand why it matters. but people still ask. when she goes for a walk in the park and strikes up conversations with other women, she tells me people still ask first or second thing what her religon is, not just her but everyone. now that she is older she no longer cares, or maybe now that we have grown up and moved away she feels she can be honest about who she is without damaging our chances (for what i`m not sure). when she says roman catholic, some try to nudge her towards conversion. it is a favorite joke of ours, whats the latest attempt then ami?
another thing, a lot of people who had read my articles believe i am not a muslim. they have arrived at this conclusion how...i don`t know. perhaps because i have written about minorities. i found an article i had written about hindu`s in pakistan on a saudi arabian website under ` a pakistani hindu speaks`. i laughed. how confusing it all is. why must we wear our beliefs on our sleeves? why must we champion only our own beliefs rather than the right to believe?
i think you are lucky to have grown up with religous diversity. i say this because so have i, and i consider myself lucky. in the absence of any ONE true path, i have been able to tread many. for this i thank all the gods anyone has ever believed in, especially the ones in terry pratchett books. ever read small gods by the same author?
regards,
shandana
interesting, emotive writing. made me think of a lot of things...not necessarily related.
on conversion, when i was a kid my mother told us that when people asked what religon she was we should say she had converted. she was roman catholic when she married my sunni muslim punjabi father. i didn`t understand why then, but as we got older kids started asking. they were obviously repeating the questions their parents had but were unable to ask her or my father directly at pta meetings etc. i didn`t then and still dont understand why it matters. but people still ask. when she goes for a walk in the park and strikes up conversations with other women, she tells me people still ask first or second thing what her religon is, not just her but everyone. now that she is older she no longer cares, or maybe now that we have grown up and moved away she feels she can be honest about who she is without damaging our chances (for what i`m not sure). when she says roman catholic, some try to nudge her towards conversion. it is a favorite joke of ours, whats the latest attempt then ami?
another thing, a lot of people who had read my articles believe i am not a muslim. they have arrived at this conclusion how...i don`t know. perhaps because i have written about minorities. i found an article i had written about hindu`s in pakistan on a saudi arabian website under ` a pakistani hindu speaks`. i laughed. how confusing it all is. why must we wear our beliefs on our sleeves? why must we champion only our own beliefs rather than the right to believe?
i think you are lucky to have grown up with religous diversity. i say this because so have i, and i consider myself lucky. in the absence of any ONE true path, i have been able to tread many. for this i thank all the gods anyone has ever believed in, especially the ones in terry pratchett books. ever read small gods by the same author?
regards,
shandana
#23 Posted by Tipu on June 25, 2003 12:02:30 am
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#22 Posted by m_souza on June 24, 2003 11:21:36 pm
#16 by soysauce on June 24, 2003 2:55pm PT
Your cousin, on the other hand, sounds like she is trying to be holier than the Sankaracharya. I cannot see myself carrying on a relationship if she were my relative and had undergone conversion. You could try brainwashing her kid!
-------
It is amazing to see peopel so disturbed here.
You feel you would not carry on the relationship if some relative of yours converts. Muslims can`t accept conversion away from their religion but are so glad to see people converting to their religion. Such double standards.
History itself is the proof of this. They love to convert others.
Reading many of the posts till now, the conclusion is that even one such conversion(from Islam to Hinduism and that too not by force but for the sake of love and marriage) seems to have disturbed and annoyed the muslims. Imagine how did hindus feel when so many of their co-religionists were forcibly converted to Islam.
Isn`t the subcontimental history brimming with stories of conversions? Some for marriage and greed for money...others and most of them were by the invading armies coming from the Hindukush. They not only converted the kafirs but destroyed the religious places of the native religion. What right did they have? How do Hindus feel about all this?
In today`s secular India we don`t care if one is a hindu or muslim or others...
But ...because not only are these people converted to Islam but speak so much against the religion of thier ancestors-hinduism..this is bad.
Anyway...we as Hindus do not have any desire to convert others to our religion. Religion is not a political party. And even if someone converts to it...there is no compulsion on that person to forget the previous religion.
But if Farzana`s Didi feels like behaving the way she does..it is her own wish...why should it disturb anyone.? she should not disturb even her cousins..forget about chowkies? When people convert to Islam aren`t they told to absolutely forget their past? Just look at the subcontinental muslims to see how they have not only changed but hate their past...and call themselves Syeds
+You could try brainwashing her kid! +
Hinduism doesn`t lay any such conditions to follow only its God. But isn`t it upto the Didi to bring up her kids in any way she wants?
Brainwashing..ufff.......like the moghuls ....Aurangzebs did after invading India. Are you still continuing it?
Your cousin, on the other hand, sounds like she is trying to be holier than the Sankaracharya. I cannot see myself carrying on a relationship if she were my relative and had undergone conversion. You could try brainwashing her kid!
-------
It is amazing to see peopel so disturbed here.
You feel you would not carry on the relationship if some relative of yours converts. Muslims can`t accept conversion away from their religion but are so glad to see people converting to their religion. Such double standards.
History itself is the proof of this. They love to convert others.
Reading many of the posts till now, the conclusion is that even one such conversion(from Islam to Hinduism and that too not by force but for the sake of love and marriage) seems to have disturbed and annoyed the muslims. Imagine how did hindus feel when so many of their co-religionists were forcibly converted to Islam.
Isn`t the subcontimental history brimming with stories of conversions? Some for marriage and greed for money...others and most of them were by the invading armies coming from the Hindukush. They not only converted the kafirs but destroyed the religious places of the native religion. What right did they have? How do Hindus feel about all this?
In today`s secular India we don`t care if one is a hindu or muslim or others...
But ...because not only are these people converted to Islam but speak so much against the religion of thier ancestors-hinduism..this is bad.
Anyway...we as Hindus do not have any desire to convert others to our religion. Religion is not a political party. And even if someone converts to it...there is no compulsion on that person to forget the previous religion.
But if Farzana`s Didi feels like behaving the way she does..it is her own wish...why should it disturb anyone.? she should not disturb even her cousins..forget about chowkies? When people convert to Islam aren`t they told to absolutely forget their past? Just look at the subcontinental muslims to see how they have not only changed but hate their past...and call themselves Syeds
+You could try brainwashing her kid! +
Hinduism doesn`t lay any such conditions to follow only its God. But isn`t it upto the Didi to bring up her kids in any way she wants?
Brainwashing..ufff.......like the moghuls ....Aurangzebs did after invading India. Are you still continuing it?
#21 Posted by Satire on June 24, 2003 8:47:30 pm
Farzana,
Two warm stories, indeed. But shouldn`t individuals be allowed to choose their religion irrespective of their past. Shouldn`t we be free to call themselves ``Mohammed Ali`` should we choose. Or bring up our children as we choose. Shouldn`t we be allowed to be the idiots in our own space?
The issue you reflect with the kids not getting a `balanced instruction` isn`t really religious. I think it has more to do with sexism where the husband`s faith usually dominates. Or if the girl is really pretty and strong minded, they lattoo could be swung the other way too.
Lastly, I don`t believe Kamala Das was insulting anyone`s religion. If she was, it was her own (either past or present). In any plural society people will convert, inter-marry, socialize .... I think the freedom to do so should be encouraged rather than curtailed. As for the kids, ahh a touchy subject, the parents should decide which religion: either, both, all or none. Usually in an educated setting, the stronger personality dominates.
Satire
Two warm stories, indeed. But shouldn`t individuals be allowed to choose their religion irrespective of their past. Shouldn`t we be free to call themselves ``Mohammed Ali`` should we choose. Or bring up our children as we choose. Shouldn`t we be allowed to be the idiots in our own space?
The issue you reflect with the kids not getting a `balanced instruction` isn`t really religious. I think it has more to do with sexism where the husband`s faith usually dominates. Or if the girl is really pretty and strong minded, they lattoo could be swung the other way too.
Lastly, I don`t believe Kamala Das was insulting anyone`s religion. If she was, it was her own (either past or present). In any plural society people will convert, inter-marry, socialize .... I think the freedom to do so should be encouraged rather than curtailed. As for the kids, ahh a touchy subject, the parents should decide which religion: either, both, all or none. Usually in an educated setting, the stronger personality dominates.
Satire
#20 Posted by ana_dobarah on June 24, 2003 4:59:34 pm
Ferzoo...
hiya! agreeing with brat here. you know i`ve read a little bit `bout kamala das recently, but these days from the eye to hawa rather than to the mind...is she just as content with her conversion as she was when she went through it?
and i`m just curious...vhy the footnote? yaar, from what you wrote about your didi, and connecting that to the letter to kamala das...intelligent readers can figure out your position, no?
and thank you for sharing about didi. :-)
love,
ana
hiya! agreeing with brat here. you know i`ve read a little bit `bout kamala das recently, but these days from the eye to hawa rather than to the mind...is she just as content with her conversion as she was when she went through it?
and i`m just curious...vhy the footnote? yaar, from what you wrote about your didi, and connecting that to the letter to kamala das...intelligent readers can figure out your position, no?
and thank you for sharing about didi. :-)
love,
ana
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