The Follies of the Natives

re: ana-dobarah

I am still waiting for a reply and when I get it, I will post that email in my ilog. Please keep checking journal entries there...

As to the Briton and Punjab Club - the problem was solved a jacket was borrowed from one of the waiters and given to the Briton in question!

Sorry for the delay in the reply section!

Ciao

rsaxena,
Though I find it difficult to understand much of what Studebaker says,leave alone agree with him, please lets not descend to these levels. He does seem fairly confused(even to a fellow bong!:)) but these are confusing times fort he best of us!
That said,Studebaker,how you know Vajpayee is impotent beats me.I mean,most of us live in the West,we should know being single doesn`t mean not having sex.Since (I assume)you have never slept with Vajpayee,how would you know?I agree the formation of Bangladesh in a sense did overturn the partition,though.Even when Bangladeshis are angry with India(which I have to say they often are,what would you expect of a nation of Bengalis all in their own world:)),they still shudder at the thought of what happened in 71.

tahmed32:
I am also an admirer of the Chinese model of immigration assimilation: no flaunting of their successes, no false screams re. discrimination, no berating of the host culture or morals, and in general making all attempts not to stick out like a sore thumb, even adjusting their restaurant food so that it tastes different in an Indian Chinese restaurant than in a North American one.
Still, they retain pride in their culture and what`s important in it - the confucian ethics and the family values and their language - a third generation chinese is much more likely to know the chinese language than a second generation Indian.

The pakistani State speaks -

`We don`t trust you [India] when you say we should focus on trade. We see it as an attempt to sideline the main issue of Kashmir.` That one sound byte from Pervez Musharraf tells all -- about his abusive abrasiveness and dripping hatred towards India. The words confirm that the man is not a diplomat but a demon when it comes to India.

re:#94 by ferozk
``My problem is that the Indian leadership is not articulating a clear policy vis-a-vis Pakistan. Sinha say some thing, Ferandes says an other thing and Advani counterdicts them both! ABV says another thing! Who is speaking for India?``
Indian leadership reflects the mood of the people unlike your dictator who has his own personal moods. Each of the above leaders viz fernandez, Advani, ABV are leaders within their own rights and respond the way they think it fit. This is not an autocracy where one says and everyone follows (that is how it was with Mrs gandhi). This is a multi-party coalition with some powerful regional players calling the shots. Each reflects his own mood. So, consensus is hard to achieve, especially on the vexed question of talks with Pakistan. ABV was really being bold when he went against the popular mood and offered peace talks with Pakistan. I bet people like Fernandez, L.K. Advani do not like it one bit but for the moment they are going with the popular mood. Media hailed ABV`s decision as ``statesman like``. Many Paki commentators had said similar things about his decision to call for talks.

When a general consensus is emerging in India to start having peace talks with Pak, Pak`s dictator had no business to viciate the atmosphere. It is best that he remains in the background. This guy is a fukcing moron. He may be a patriotic Paki but he is a moron. He should just stick to licking Uncle Sam`s A$$, at which he has now become quite adept.
His interview had the predictable response from the hardliner L.K. Advani:
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=311374
Sridhar

re: dost-mittar

{What`s your preferred alternative? }

...12-head`s preferred alternative is to be a taliban military dictator`s bitch...

hamidm:
``would you hire a baby sitter with forty earrings, pink hair and a studded dog collar?``
They teach in Jesuit schools that the best way to counter an argument is take it to an absurd extreme and destroy that extreme. In any case, I think that the younger generation is a lot more tolerant than yours and mine. Here at chowk, I am considered a liberal; at home, with the same views, I am the resident bigot.
My argument about cultural/climate-specific dress pertained to people native to their countries, for example shalwar-kameez in Pakistan or kurta-pajama in India. I am all for behaving in Rome like the Romans, although `Rome` itself is now changing all the time and no longer static. It is easy to deride Gandhi as the half-naked fakir but without his lion-cloth, I wonder if he would have successfully converted the Congress from a country club to a mass-based party. Of course, if you believe that only country clubs should decide the fate of a people, that`s another story.

Tipu#91
``Minority are no better of DUE to Democracy``
What`s your preferred alternative?

hamidm2 #93 ``mobutu with his leopard skins, jomo kenyatta with his fly whisks, nehru with his silly paper hat, bhutto with his awami suits, mao with his drab blue tunics, zia with his achkans, osama with his prophetic flowing robes, king fahd with his ridiculous night gowns, rajiv gandhi with his pajamas, mullah omar with his turban and the biggest actor of them all, gandhi ji who disgraced the entire indian nation by running around half naked ``

hee! hee!
you forgot mullah omar`s blanket that he claimed belonged to the holy prophet (the nights get chilly in the desert i suppose). you also forgot mullah fazloos emperor-like robes. you also forgot saddam husseins complete wardrobe of dresses: his arab warrior outfit, his english country gentleman outfit, his playboy outfit (although it looked more like his pimp outfit), his pious-man-saying-prayers outfit. And need i mention the acres of flowing robes and headcoverings that african rulers and finance ministers put on to reflect their supposed heritage. And you forgot that fancy overcoat with loose sleeves hanging on the side that Karzai puts on.

Meanwhile, the guys who call the shots and make these guys sing and dance in their fancy ``national`` dresses (or who cause them to forget their fancy wardrobes and run off into hiding like mullah omar and hussein) wear plain black business suits, no different than joe salesman trying to sell you furniture.

re: sameerjb # 78

It is happening in Pakistan, even we speak!

Ciao

re:rsridhar # 87

I also read that interview, but will have to read again to come to an opinion. Generally, I tend to ignore such interviews, because I do not get to ``see`` the body language! As to the Indian view of Musharraf, it is can be understood. Still, there is a Pakistani view of Indians and between the two of them, we have a problem! :)

You have a sense of distrust about Musharraf and I do not trust the bona fides of the present Indian leadership. My problem is that the Indian leadership is not articulating a clear policy vis-a-vis Pakistan. Sinha say some thing, Ferandes says an other thing and Advani counterdicts them both! ABV says another thing! Who is speaking for India? Today Advani said something which made a lot of sense. He said that India would talk to Muharraf and not Jamali, because Musharraf is ``in charge`` and he speaks for Pakistan. At least you know who our spokesperson is, but sir, who is your spokesperson? There is a lot of confusion in Pakistan about who really speaks for Indian intentions in India.

Hence, distrust is common on both sides of the divide!

re: dost-mittar # 84

Absolutely agreed, because any political system created by wo/man will be flawed, because we humans are flawed ourselves!

The trynny of the majority is not specific to a referandum, but can exist in a parliamentary system or a presidential system and will exist, as long as the principle of majority rule is considered as the sina qua non for a democratic system. Yes, there are problems and the questions/issues/points you raised and valid and I agree, my hypothesis is not perfect. A larger part of the problem resides in our lack of education, social awareness, emotionalism, ethnic divisions, and issues, which seek to polarize instead of fuse the politics in Pakistan or India, for that matter.

You and I, Indians and Pakistanis, are an emotional lot and I can see this every time I visit Chowk and our sense of nationalism combined with emotionalism, or hyper nationalism, makes us issue specific. In order words, we concentrate so much on the details that we lose the over all picture - we miss the graphic for the pixels! The idea, I was discussing needs political maturity to suceed and we are not capable of that yet. We keep talking about secular politics, but we never discuss politics without an emotional influence! We need to create a wall seperating politics from emotion and once, we remove emotion from politics, we can progress.

I still believe in populalism, but maybe the time is not right...but that is another debate!

Ciao

jay #88 On chowk, you have consistently demonstrated joy in the miseries of poor people in pakistan. You have equally consistently demonstrated a lack of concern for the equal, and indeed in many cases much greater, miseries of poor people in your own country. You have only one agenda in your mind, which is to promote mindless divisions and hatreds among people.

You are a characterless individual driven by pathological hatreds. And by now you have become a total bore with your routine, single tune nonesense. So go to hell.

dost-mittar,

.........you are wrong when you say, ``man or a woman is no longer judged by what s/he wears but what s/he is``..............would you hire a baby sitter with forty earrings, pink hair and a studded dog collar? .......... i can understand a teenager for their ridiculous fashion statements – it is a sign of rebellion caused by raging hormones, and we all did it – but there is no excuse for an adult to look like willie nelson, unless they are willie nelson..........the way a person dresses says a lot about them..........specially third-world natives who are still hung up on silliness like the injustice of colonialism and other ancient history and would rather run around naked with a bone through their nose, than dress up decently like a white man ......... it is cheap histrionics perfected by manipulative populists like mobutu with his leopard skins, jomo kenyatta with his fly whisks, nehru with his silly paper hat, bhutto with his awami suits, mao with his drab blue tunics, zia with his achkans, osama with his prophetic flowing robes, king fahd with his ridiculous night gowns, rajiv gandhi with his pajamas, mullah omar with his turban and the biggest actor of them all, gandhi ji who disgraced the entire indian nation by running around half naked ..........what the heck was all that about?

........and how should we judge the mullahs with their beards, the sisters with their hijabs, and the shiv sena in their khaki shorts and war-paint on their foreheads ?...........are you suggesting that we should not judge these people based on their appearance..........how silly can you get!

............dressing up in “native clothes” and walking around toronto or new york is not as innocuous as you might think, it is the symptom of a potentially dangerous disease ..........it shows a resistance to assimilation and a deep rooted hostility towards the native culture...........i am not suggesting that everyone in a clown suit and big toe strap chappals is trying to make a political statement (some of them are simply feeble minded), but there is more to it than meets the eye..............

``Potentially, Pakistan should be an attractive place for fdi. It has an energetic, intelligent, hard working population that has shown what it can do given the chance. The major things needed is political stability.``

tahmed, wake up from the delusions. Yes NWFP has political stability, and the energetic youth are busy pulling down the posters, sabotaging pipelenes, killing police recruits.
Problem with pakistnis is that they have a warped mind, typified by yours, never accepts the truth, under the delusion that it is all a matter giving a spin.
Yes pak GNP is growing, but in the streets of pakistan the beggers havnt got the news. thamed, pl do write in urdu, what is the word in urdu for GNP, put up the posters of GNP growth every where, so that the poor can eat the posters, may be even ehdi foundation can use it as body bags.

dost mittar #82 On musharaff, if the economy continues to pick up, then perhaps the price of a military dictator would be worth it in the long run.

On clothes and chinese, my wife observes and i agree that chinese in the US tend to dress very well (in simple clothes, but with smart cuts) and also tend to keep fit (an obese chinese in the US is a rarity). The chinese have completely discarded their traditional dress in the US, and i think that has done them no harm at all - they have maintained what is more important, namely their strong values favoring education, family ties, enterprise and hard work. The only thing they lack is the ability to drive. I am glad to see more and more indians as well as pakistanis beginning to dress like normal people in the US and also take better care of themselves by going to the gym.

The ugliest dress i have seen anywhere is shalwar kameez without the dupatta, particularly when worn by a woman with a michelin man figure.

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