The Follies of the Natives
Feroz R Khan June 12, 2003
#40 Posted by Tipu on June 13, 2003 2:31:09 pm
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#39 Posted by Tipu on June 13, 2003 2:31:09 pm
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#38 Posted by Tipu on June 13, 2003 2:31:09 pm
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#37 Posted by Tipu on June 13, 2003 2:31:09 pm
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#36 Posted by SameerJB on June 13, 2003 2:31:08 pm
dost-mittar #30:
[I have seen two schools of thought in Pakistan regarding the country`s heritage. The first, the orthodox, want to trace Pakistan`s culture and ancestry to Arabia, Iran and central Asia; the second, the liberal school, wants to create an identity based on the history and culture of the muslims during their 1300 years in India. No one seems to want to go before that period to trace their culture and history to the land that constitutes its geographic boundaries. ]
Not quite right in my opinion. The two schools of thought you described differ little in terms of practical application. The importance of the past (Muslims) for both groups translates to admiration of heritage as well as practical use of it to same degree. Therefore second group can not be considered liberals. The liberal group in Pakistan, though very small right now believes in relative importance of the heritage but sees heritage impact in practical terms declining with time, exponentially before roughly 3000 years. Let me elaborate what I mean.
The liberal section gives disproportionate importance to the current and future over past for practical applicability (areas such as geopolitics, prosperity and economy). Assume some arbitrary mumber, say 70, 20 and 10 percents for present, future and past respectively. With only 10 percent importance of the past, Islamic, pre-Islamic and migration patterns from Arabia, Iran and central Asia matter within 10 percent and near past takes more share than old past. Therefore, they do not ignore Mecca or Mohenjo-Daro but believe that they should matter little in the current paradigm world is presently. Orthodox disagree with the gradual decline of the importance of past from practicality point of view. In scientific terminology, it is called tunneling through time and keeping the same importance as it ever enjoyed - obviously only the Islamic one. In this arena, India is a competitor, neighbor, friend or a foe for Pakistan. In this arena, one should not expect me to even drop the current importance of USA to me.
However, for applications outside the modern practical importance such as culture, heritage as identity, the practicality and respect work in opposite direction. Like old is gold, the contribution of Islam and pre-Islam is undeniable fact on the social and cultural fabrics of Pakistan. In social. culture terms, future is less important for Pakistani liberals. The future of our cusine, festivals, customs and traditions would evolve for variety of reasons and circumstances - many things accidentally. Therefore, in this arena, the ratio is say, 50, 40 and 10 for present, immediate past and distant past respectively. For various varieties of orthodox people, the constants of the pasts are time and space independent and therefore permanent fixtures on the heritage and identity plus added respect for old as well as religious reasons. Within this group also come people who wish to throw out everything before the arrival of M. B. Qasim. In this arena Indians are cultural kins, common heritage, common political experience over centuries etc for Pakistanis. It is unfair for anybody to drop 500 year old for 2000 year old becuse the perceived older the better. The importance is tangential with time unless third powerful parties are forcing one over the other.
Next is compensating or compromising as a minority. The identity for Pakistanis even as Muslim Pakistanis are no longer same as Indian Muslims. Indian Muslims should give something to compensate for being a minority but Pakistani Muslims are under no obligation to give up. They have to voluntarily give it up, particularly in the practical arenas mentioned earlier in the post. That is what I or many other mean by saying that Islam should be defeated by Muslims or that Muslims problems are internal and creation of mostly of their own.
I hope it made some sense from liberal/ secular Pakistani point of view. What matters for Pakistani liberals, is Today and Tomorrow in Pakistan Today.
[I have seen two schools of thought in Pakistan regarding the country`s heritage. The first, the orthodox, want to trace Pakistan`s culture and ancestry to Arabia, Iran and central Asia; the second, the liberal school, wants to create an identity based on the history and culture of the muslims during their 1300 years in India. No one seems to want to go before that period to trace their culture and history to the land that constitutes its geographic boundaries. ]
Not quite right in my opinion. The two schools of thought you described differ little in terms of practical application. The importance of the past (Muslims) for both groups translates to admiration of heritage as well as practical use of it to same degree. Therefore second group can not be considered liberals. The liberal group in Pakistan, though very small right now believes in relative importance of the heritage but sees heritage impact in practical terms declining with time, exponentially before roughly 3000 years. Let me elaborate what I mean.
The liberal section gives disproportionate importance to the current and future over past for practical applicability (areas such as geopolitics, prosperity and economy). Assume some arbitrary mumber, say 70, 20 and 10 percents for present, future and past respectively. With only 10 percent importance of the past, Islamic, pre-Islamic and migration patterns from Arabia, Iran and central Asia matter within 10 percent and near past takes more share than old past. Therefore, they do not ignore Mecca or Mohenjo-Daro but believe that they should matter little in the current paradigm world is presently. Orthodox disagree with the gradual decline of the importance of past from practicality point of view. In scientific terminology, it is called tunneling through time and keeping the same importance as it ever enjoyed - obviously only the Islamic one. In this arena, India is a competitor, neighbor, friend or a foe for Pakistan. In this arena, one should not expect me to even drop the current importance of USA to me.
However, for applications outside the modern practical importance such as culture, heritage as identity, the practicality and respect work in opposite direction. Like old is gold, the contribution of Islam and pre-Islam is undeniable fact on the social and cultural fabrics of Pakistan. In social. culture terms, future is less important for Pakistani liberals. The future of our cusine, festivals, customs and traditions would evolve for variety of reasons and circumstances - many things accidentally. Therefore, in this arena, the ratio is say, 50, 40 and 10 for present, immediate past and distant past respectively. For various varieties of orthodox people, the constants of the pasts are time and space independent and therefore permanent fixtures on the heritage and identity plus added respect for old as well as religious reasons. Within this group also come people who wish to throw out everything before the arrival of M. B. Qasim. In this arena Indians are cultural kins, common heritage, common political experience over centuries etc for Pakistanis. It is unfair for anybody to drop 500 year old for 2000 year old becuse the perceived older the better. The importance is tangential with time unless third powerful parties are forcing one over the other.
Next is compensating or compromising as a minority. The identity for Pakistanis even as Muslim Pakistanis are no longer same as Indian Muslims. Indian Muslims should give something to compensate for being a minority but Pakistani Muslims are under no obligation to give up. They have to voluntarily give it up, particularly in the practical arenas mentioned earlier in the post. That is what I or many other mean by saying that Islam should be defeated by Muslims or that Muslims problems are internal and creation of mostly of their own.
I hope it made some sense from liberal/ secular Pakistani point of view. What matters for Pakistani liberals, is Today and Tomorrow in Pakistan Today.
#35 Posted by ana_dobarah on June 13, 2003 2:31:08 pm
feroz,
this is an excellent article, and i agree with everything that you`ve said.
just out of curiosity, what`s happened with the Punjab Club in Lahore. does it still exist?
on the subject of the 1857 war vs. mutiny:
going to school in Lahore, we learned about what happened in 1857 as a `war of independence` (probably one of the few truths in the lies that we were taught). When I was doing my undergrad at uni in Eugene, Oregon, I was very excited about this history class about India. I signed up for it, first day of class, the prof. mentions the `mutiny`. I went to talk to him after class, and told him that being from Pakistan, that was not how i referred to the war of 1857. Not that I was asking him to show some sensitivity, mind you, was just pointing out my understanding of history. he said something to the effect where while what i learned may be true, most texts he`s read have used the word `mutiny.` I chose not to remain in his class.
feroz, i read in your ilog about the email you got re: the Iraqi. would you be able to shed some more light or give a little more info about the email? understandably you don`t want to violate his privacy, but a friend and I were discussing Iraqi christians not too long ago, and so what you said peaked my interest.
this is an excellent article, and i agree with everything that you`ve said.
just out of curiosity, what`s happened with the Punjab Club in Lahore. does it still exist?
on the subject of the 1857 war vs. mutiny:
going to school in Lahore, we learned about what happened in 1857 as a `war of independence` (probably one of the few truths in the lies that we were taught). When I was doing my undergrad at uni in Eugene, Oregon, I was very excited about this history class about India. I signed up for it, first day of class, the prof. mentions the `mutiny`. I went to talk to him after class, and told him that being from Pakistan, that was not how i referred to the war of 1857. Not that I was asking him to show some sensitivity, mind you, was just pointing out my understanding of history. he said something to the effect where while what i learned may be true, most texts he`s read have used the word `mutiny.` I chose not to remain in his class.
feroz, i read in your ilog about the email you got re: the Iraqi. would you be able to shed some more light or give a little more info about the email? understandably you don`t want to violate his privacy, but a friend and I were discussing Iraqi christians not too long ago, and so what you said peaked my interest.
#34 Posted by rsaxena on June 13, 2003 2:31:08 pm
re: #32
..america is less secular than many european countries...the influence of the bible thumping idiots in washington has been strong under bush...
..america is less secular than many european countries...the influence of the bible thumping idiots in washington has been strong under bush...
#33 Posted by Tipu on June 13, 2003 1:24:34 pm
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#32 Posted by dost_mittar on June 13, 2003 12:57:15 pm
ferozk:
Great introspection! Your introductory paras could apply as well to your eastern neighbour.
``We are proud of our lineage, but our lineage is only limited to approximately 1400 years ago, because our ancestors did not exist before the arrival of Islam in this world.``
I have seen two schools of thought in Pakistan regarding the country`s heritage. The first, the orthodox, want to trace Pakistan`s culture and ancestry to Arabia, Iran and central Asia; the second, the liberal school, wants to create an identity based on the history and culture of the muslims during their 1300 years in India. No one seems to want to go before that period to trace their culture and history to the land that constitutes its geographic boundaries.
Great introspection! Your introductory paras could apply as well to your eastern neighbour.
``We are proud of our lineage, but our lineage is only limited to approximately 1400 years ago, because our ancestors did not exist before the arrival of Islam in this world.``
I have seen two schools of thought in Pakistan regarding the country`s heritage. The first, the orthodox, want to trace Pakistan`s culture and ancestry to Arabia, Iran and central Asia; the second, the liberal school, wants to create an identity based on the history and culture of the muslims during their 1300 years in India. No one seems to want to go before that period to trace their culture and history to the land that constitutes its geographic boundaries.
#31 Posted by sadna on June 13, 2003 12:57:15 pm
Ferozk
To recap an exchange we had in July last year :
http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00001324&channel=civic%20center&start=140&end=149&page=15&chapter=2#124
``..The PPP/PML/etc/angry religious parties will have nothing to lose in allying against Musharraf, because he has exiled/jailed/banned their leaders and refused to reach agreement with them about the future set up.
Such an alliance could be strong enough to challenge the constitutional changes, Musharraf`s position as President, and perhaps bribe the judiciary. Having the support of the religious parties, an anti-Musharraf alliance may even get sympathy and support from Islamist-sympathisers in the Army.
Consequence: Musharraf will be weaker after the elections since he cannot prevent each one of his declared opponents from winning. His constitutional changes to safeguard his role will be put at risk, and he may even have to dismiss the Assembly to save his job.
Given this possible scenario, its best Musharraf reach consensus with all sections of the political spectrum now. ``
Whats the point of remembering this?
The point of this is that the deadlock between Musharraf and Parliament is the natural/logical thing to have happened as a consequence of the way he rigged the system. Its better to realise this than get emotional.
He refused to win consensus for his constitutional amendments before the elections - and many parties were forced to campaign from an anti-Musharraf platform (forced by Musharrafs outcasting of their parties) in the polls.
Now they cannot abandon the voters who put them into Parliament on their anti-Musharraf stance. The MMA in its turn may have campaigned on religious issues like Sharia and jihad against America- they need to foster their core constituency too.
Leaving aside the leaders` pursuit of personal advancement, the problem for an elected politician and his party is, you cannot survive in a hybrid system - get elected on peoples will and then submit abjectly to Musharraf`s will. How will you rally your party members/supporters and get elected next time if you do so without any requisite benefits to yourself and your party?
Simply declaring that only Musharraf and his supporters are good /know best and all opposing politicians and the voters who voted for them are bad/illiterate will not make other opinions/groups/parties go away. And in the matter of a constitution which affects everyone - every citizen has a birthright to his opinion!
IMO, politics is about competitiveness and consensus both within commonly agreed rules and democracy is when the competitiveness and consensus building involves representatives of the largest number of opinions possible.
So neither competitiveness/contention nor dealmaking are inherently unnatural - hopefully competitiveness upholds something worthwhile and hopefully dealmaking makes something worthwhile possible.
Given this and given that politics is the art of the possible, can you suggest 5-6 realistic solutions for ending the Musharraf/Parliament deadlock? A frivolous one as example- declare Musharraf Khalifa and go back to `73? constitution :)
To recap an exchange we had in July last year :
http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00001324&channel=civic%20center&start=140&end=149&page=15&chapter=2#124
``..The PPP/PML/etc/angry religious parties will have nothing to lose in allying against Musharraf, because he has exiled/jailed/banned their leaders and refused to reach agreement with them about the future set up.
Such an alliance could be strong enough to challenge the constitutional changes, Musharraf`s position as President, and perhaps bribe the judiciary. Having the support of the religious parties, an anti-Musharraf alliance may even get sympathy and support from Islamist-sympathisers in the Army.
Consequence: Musharraf will be weaker after the elections since he cannot prevent each one of his declared opponents from winning. His constitutional changes to safeguard his role will be put at risk, and he may even have to dismiss the Assembly to save his job.
Given this possible scenario, its best Musharraf reach consensus with all sections of the political spectrum now. ``
Whats the point of remembering this?
The point of this is that the deadlock between Musharraf and Parliament is the natural/logical thing to have happened as a consequence of the way he rigged the system. Its better to realise this than get emotional.
He refused to win consensus for his constitutional amendments before the elections - and many parties were forced to campaign from an anti-Musharraf platform (forced by Musharrafs outcasting of their parties) in the polls.
Now they cannot abandon the voters who put them into Parliament on their anti-Musharraf stance. The MMA in its turn may have campaigned on religious issues like Sharia and jihad against America- they need to foster their core constituency too.
Leaving aside the leaders` pursuit of personal advancement, the problem for an elected politician and his party is, you cannot survive in a hybrid system - get elected on peoples will and then submit abjectly to Musharraf`s will. How will you rally your party members/supporters and get elected next time if you do so without any requisite benefits to yourself and your party?
Simply declaring that only Musharraf and his supporters are good /know best and all opposing politicians and the voters who voted for them are bad/illiterate will not make other opinions/groups/parties go away. And in the matter of a constitution which affects everyone - every citizen has a birthright to his opinion!
IMO, politics is about competitiveness and consensus both within commonly agreed rules and democracy is when the competitiveness and consensus building involves representatives of the largest number of opinions possible.
So neither competitiveness/contention nor dealmaking are inherently unnatural - hopefully competitiveness upholds something worthwhile and hopefully dealmaking makes something worthwhile possible.
Given this and given that politics is the art of the possible, can you suggest 5-6 realistic solutions for ending the Musharraf/Parliament deadlock? A frivolous one as example- declare Musharraf Khalifa and go back to `73? constitution :)
#30 Posted by dost_mittar on June 13, 2003 12:57:15 pm
ferozk#17
``America is a free market and not a democracy and it is not even secular anymore``
I can understand your not accepting India as a secular democracy. But could you please elaborate what you meant by the above statement.
``America is a free market and not a democracy and it is not even secular anymore``
I can understand your not accepting India as a secular democracy. But could you please elaborate what you meant by the above statement.
#29 Posted by taimurmalik on June 13, 2003 11:52:19 am
Rise we will. Fight we shall.
Feroz K, Good one.
Regards.
and temporal #27: clip we will :)
Feroz K, Good one.
Regards.
and temporal #27: clip we will :)
#28 Posted by temporal on June 13, 2003 11:12:42 am
feroz #17:
well said!
yaar forgive me for repeating but as a writer you are an excellent and better focused in interacts…you are an unpolished gem that needs a good editor!
…(as mao said…a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step)…(and again forgive me for repeating here)…the circus…the show will continue as long as the army’s wings are not clipped…that is the first thing absolutely necessary for leveling the playing field so that the people can fairly and squarely fight out their battles…and fight it out they will…sooner than later…(only in this assessment i concur with sameerjb)
rgds,
t
ps: i will use your post on my i-log for friends who usually avoid sites where the usual i-p warriors engage in cyber jihad;)
well said!
yaar forgive me for repeating but as a writer you are an excellent and better focused in interacts…you are an unpolished gem that needs a good editor!
…(as mao said…a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step)…(and again forgive me for repeating here)…the circus…the show will continue as long as the army’s wings are not clipped…that is the first thing absolutely necessary for leveling the playing field so that the people can fairly and squarely fight out their battles…and fight it out they will…sooner than later…(only in this assessment i concur with sameerjb)
rgds,
t
ps: i will use your post on my i-log for friends who usually avoid sites where the usual i-p warriors engage in cyber jihad;)
#27 Posted by ferozk on June 13, 2003 11:12:42 am
re: veeresh # 26
By all means! It is always nice to be quoted and in the process, have ISI for tea! LOL
Ciao
By all means! It is always nice to be quoted and in the process, have ISI for tea! LOL
Ciao
#26 Posted by veeresh on June 13, 2003 10:05:37 am
FerozK # 21 . . . may I use the following lines from your interact for an article I have to do elsewhere? (Also seeking permission from chowk staff)
````How do I feel? I feel like a child caught up in a bitter divorce, where both the parents are fighting and only I am suffering. India and Pakistan are both my parents and no matter what, I can never deny the truth of that identity. Whether Indian or Pakistani, it does not matter, because we are the sum of the same proposition.````
#25 Posted by ferozk on June 13, 2003 9:01:13 am
re: Saima Shah #2
How are you? Thanks for appreciating this epistle from the heart! It really breaks the heart and even more so, when the pain of a love ignored is so deep. There is a saying, which laments thus: I cry for my country, but does my country cry for me?
Saimaji, I really appreciate your endorsement of support! Hope you will interact here and keep my temperance, within reasonable limits of tolerance! :)
Best Wishes!
Ciao
How are you? Thanks for appreciating this epistle from the heart! It really breaks the heart and even more so, when the pain of a love ignored is so deep. There is a saying, which laments thus: I cry for my country, but does my country cry for me?
Saimaji, I really appreciate your endorsement of support! Hope you will interact here and keep my temperance, within reasonable limits of tolerance! :)
Best Wishes!
Ciao
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