The Follies of the Natives

re: Dost-Mittar # 135

Thanks for a series of productive interacts. I will let you have the last word and bid you adieu, as I take a two week vacation trekking and camping. I will be back on Chowk after July 4th!

Best Wishes!

Ciao

ferozk:
My prescriptin was meant for both sides. Let me explain: When in negotiations, even with an adversary, you become a partner with your adversary; if you succeed they succeed, if they fail, you fail. This is why both Kissinger and his Vietnamese counterpart got the Nobel prize. Musharraf forgot this cardinal principle at Agra and started scoring points over his counterparts, this is why I gave his example.

re: Dost-Mittar

Adversial relations is what the problem and it is very difficult to step away from it. Even though I would agree with you, I would still say that blaming Musharraf for all the problems is not going to solve the issue. We have a distinct perception of India and Indians have a perception of Pakistan and it reinforces this adversial relationship.

I can agree with you to an extent, but I will not agree to the proposition that there is no anti-Pakistani sentiments in India, as you seem to be suggesting. The problem is on both sides and cannot be geographically confined to one side of the fence.

Ciao

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Tipu#113
Good post. Now, I expect you to show more respect for your ancestors and their achievements in your future posts:-).

Alephnull, Sridhar:
The Indian system of government is different from the free-wheeling American system where the concept of party and cabinet discipline is somewhat looser than in the Parliamentary democracies, such as India. But even in the U.S, most of the disagreements are not voiced openly but aired through inspired leaks. And once the decision to proceed in Iraq was taken, even the dovish Powell went all out to defend it in the U.N.

ferozk:
``Would you agree that the clarity of statements, on both sides, can be considered as a confidence building measure?``
For the peace process to succeed, it is even more important that the respective leaders understand the compulsions of their negotiating partners (yes, during negotiations, they should be considered as partners and not adversaries - this was the single biggest mistake committed by Musharraf at Agra!) and try to seek for the positive in their statements. Indeed, this was the first step I had mentioned in my roadmap in the article ``the beginning of the end of the kashmir problem``.

sameerJB:
``Don`t you wish that god should have revealed his messages in mathematical forms instead of prose or poetry.``
Ah, but then, the Puppeteer wouldn`t be having the fun He is having as we perform the programmed roles assigned to us. Maybe, the Indian sages were not wrong in calling this world ``Bhagwaan kee leela``. And now, even the non-mutant children of Abraham are wondering if we are all in a programmed matrix. The only way to get out of this `maya-jaal` of the matrix is to follow the path of the Buddha.:-)

re:#107 by dost-mittar
When i was doing residency in New York, an Indian lady neurologist wore a Sari and a bindi to work everyday. She was very popular.
I think in the past people in the subcontinent had been wearing a particular kind of dress depending on the weather of the area they lived in. I know for sure that the kind of dress South Indians wear in deep south (Dhoti or lungi) fits well with the hot, humid tropical climate. How did dress come to be termed Islamic or HIndu, i do not know. I know for sure that a lot of girls think it trendy to wear salwar kameez in Madras and these are south indian women!
Imagine wearing a tight fitting Gene in the hot climate of Madras! I shudder to think!
sridhar

#125, Tipu: Your comment completely flabbergasts (with its rationality) me when I look at it in the background of your earlier comments.
I unhesitatingly agree with you this time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tipu:

``MUSLIM DO NOT SAY NONMUSLIM WONT OR MUSLIM DEFENITELY WILL RECEIVE SALVATION.............. ``

Hey, we believe you. Try telling that to Naqshbandi.

re:#121 by pakfin
You are right only if it is true that Aryans did come from outside. Some serious Indologists are questioning the Aryan Invasion Theory.
Sridhar

re:#120 by Tipu
``Thus my definition of a Secular Muslim is the one who does not impose his/her beliefs on others, is not dogmatic, lets others practice their
creed and practices humanism, as Ghalib preached.``

I for one agree with your definition of Secularism.
I am a great admirer of Ghalib but my knowledge of his poetry is limited to what i learnt from the T.V serial wherein Naseeruddin Shah performed superbly as Ghalib. Again i am not well versed with Urdu and can just about understand some simple urdu sentences. But of what i have read of Ghalib, I believe he went beyond the narrow confines of religion.
If God is everywhere, why do we search for Him only in temples and mosques. He was, i think, talking of Omnipresence of God when he jocularly said in the verse:
``Saki Sharab Peeney de mujhe masjid pe bait kar
Ya Phir Woh Jagah bata jahan par Khudah na ho`` (i may be off the mark here but this is what i remember of the verse).
Sridhar

pakfin #122 If you had read my complete post, you would have realized that I said exactly what you are saying.

You have thus been caught red handed commenting on my post without reading it!! Do not attempt to escape or move! The ninja men in black helicopters have been dispatched to capture you and take you to that special torture wing reserved for those who comment on my posts without properly reading them.

#53 by tahmed32 on June 14, 2003 11:47am PT
ferozk #49 So lets see: what is the national dress of pakistan? Sherwani and Jinnah cap.

What makes a national dress? Is it what the majority of the population wears or is it something that a leader wore?

A sherwani can not be called Pakistani national dress just because Jinnah wore it. How many people do you see running around in Pakistan wearing sherwanis? If anything the sherwani is more Indian than Pakistani and was brough over to Pakistan by migrants from Lucknow.

#30 by dost-mittar on June 13, 2003 12:57pm PT
ferozk:
First of all if we look at more recent history, we will find that most Pakistanis are decendants of Indian Hindus. However, there may be a few who decended from the Arab invaders.

If we go frther back in history, we will find that it is the Dravidians who are the original Indians and the Aryans of India whether they are in todays Pakistan or India are decendants of Persians, Turks and Central Asians, with a few Greeks thrown in for good measure.

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dost-mittar #108

{{Vajpayee, Advani and Fernandez are not mere party leaders but members of a govt., indeed senior members of the same cabinet. No govt. worth its salt, whether democratic or dictatorial, can allow members of the cabinet to speak their own mind in public. Matters are supposed to be discussed in the cabinet where people are free to voice their opinion, but once a decision is taken, they lose their independence and must support the cabinet decision. }}

The point about the Indian government/cabinet needing to speak with one consistent voice is reasonable when the government on the other side is sober and professional in its dealings and has a track record of avoiding public acrimony.

In the present instance we are dealing with a Pakistani military dictator with a known record of using negotiations with India as a venue for playing to the domestic gallery, who regards all past bilateral treaties signed between India and Pakistan as null and void, who cites the Pact of Hudaibiya as a model for making, and subsequently breaking, tactical agreements with kafirs. I personally believe India should have no diplomatic dealings with Pakistan at all. But if we must, a version of good-cop/bad-cop makes eminent sense. ABV, LKA, GF have made statements consistent with their public personas. IMO it is highly unlikely that this was done on the spur of the moment and without prior clearance.

Incidentally, `advanced` countries use the same stratagem as well, on occasion. In the US, for instance, Rumsfeld plays a hawkish role to the hilt while Colin Powell acts the dove. A common variant is to use a planned `leak` from the USG to cooperative corporatised media to coerce a foreign government.

re: Indo-Pak peace talks
The war of words has already started: between LKA and Mushy boy. Will there be peace? Who knows!
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=311489
Sridhar

#112 by sameerJB
``Don`t you wish that god should have revealed his messages in mathematical forms instead of prose or poetry.``
That is the most beautiful thing i have read in Chowk for sometime.
Sridhar

Tipu #109

`` Thats the Catch of Democracy where chances of me elected from Kanpur is NIL !

Then why ask when first Step is not Assured ...if not asking for Guarantee !! ``

Don`t blame democracy per se.

India has one form of democracy - winner talk all. It has its own pluses and minuses. In Germany half of the seats are reserved for proportional representation. So a party could win 10% of the votes and not win a single seat in direct parliamentary contest. Still they could win 10% of seats in proportional column and have 5% of all seats in parliament.

re:#108 by dost-mittar
Thanx for your post.
I agree with you. In general, it is a good practice to stick publicly to what has been decided behind closed doors in cabinet meetings.
In US, nothing is done behind closed doors. Even Congressional hearings are telecast live on C-Span. There are many powerful congressmen who have fought on issues and do not mind taking on the president himself in public fora.
Indian democracy has worked like a family heritage under the Gandhis. It is coming out of that closet now. But regional players have become very powerful. Andhra C.M Chandrababu Naidu does not have to run to Delhi for all the decisions. When T.N Chief Minister Jaya lalitha visited Delhi recently, Foreign minsiter Sinha broke protocol to visit her!
People like L.K.Advani or Fernandez sometimes shoot off their hips. Or may be all this is a carefully worked out strategy. I had always felt that L.K.A and ABV have been playing the good cop-bad cop routine successfully. I may be wrong.
Sridhar

re: Dost-Mittar # 108

Brilliant!

That was well said and to the point. Given the antics of our (mis)spokesperson in Pakistan, I can attest to your arguments! I have nothing against the plurality of opinions. My concern is that such conterdictory statements create and promote misunderstandings, which really does not help anything. Hatred between India and Pakistan thrives on misunderstanding and the idea should be to remove it; not to encourage it!

Would you agree that the clarity of statements, on both sides, can be considered as a confidence building measure? Gaffes of Musharraf certainly do not help the situation and neither do the conterdictory statements from New Delhi.

Ciao

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Tipu#110
The term ``conversion to islam`` implies that they were natives, not immigrants!

dost-mittar:
I read your post #103 after posting mine. Anyway, responding to your previous post does not mean to disagree but to express my opinion in my way. People with scientific background, like us, understand logic and rationality in more concrete way, through some sort of deconvolution fit factoring in various variables and their influences on the overall result. Making sense out of widely distributed random data requires weighted averages and deviations. That is why yours and mine mumbers do not always match to the last significant figures.

Don`t you wish that god should have revealed his messages in mathematical forms instead of prose or poetry.

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rsridhar:
Vajpayee, Advani and Fernandez are not mere party leaders but members of a govt., indeed senior members of the same cabinet. No govt. worth its salt, whether democratic or dictatorial, can allow members of the cabinet to speak their own mind in public. Matters are supposed to be discussed in the cabinet where people are free to voice their opinion, but once a decision is taken, they lose their independence and must support the cabinet decision. If they cannot, they must resign before speaking out their mind, as Robin Cook did it in the U.K to express his disagreement with Blair`s policy on Iraq.

BTW, the most worrisome part of the Musharraf interview, from my perspective, was his statement that in the Indo-Pakistan talks, he is hoping to see a change of heart in India but is not prepared for any change on his side. To me, that was the most stupid statement in the interview and the one he will regret when the man from WWW comes calling next time with a road-map on Kashmir in his pocket.

sameerJB#103
Please see my post#103 to tahmed.
I do agree that immigrants should/must not stick out like a sore thumb. I myself dress like an ordinary Joe and my children all wear western clothes, except for Canadian oddities, such as when they want you to wear your ``national costume`` in the school one day in a year. How can I oppose people adjusting to the majority culture when my major grouse against muslim Indians has been that conversion to Islam meant giving up their native identity in favour of an alien one?
My point of contention is elsewhere. People everywhere in the world should not be asked to dress like the white man in order to be considered civilized. If they adopt shirts and pants, as most urban Indians have, it is their prerogative, and if the Pakistanis opt for their qaumi libaas, it is their prerogative, too. I do not accept the fact that a man in a suit is necessarily more civilized than the one in shalwar-kameez. These days, college girls in India increasingly wear jeans instead of sari or salwar-kameez; but I think they are no more westernised than most of the Pakistani women on Chowk, who I suspect still wear shalwaar-kameez.
But as I pointed out earlier, things are changing even in the west and people are more accepting of diversity. I personally knew two Indian ladies in the Canadian govt. who mostly wore saaris to work. Both of them were damn competent at what they did. Their saritorial preference was never an issue with their bosses or colleagues and they ended up as Directors General in the federal civil service (they would not have gotten anywhere with spiked hair or pierced eyes).

re: rsridhar # 101

Thanks for the post. I was not refering to the mutli-polarity in Indian politics. This is the problem; whether you believe it or not, there is a segment of the Pakistani population which wants peace with India. When Indian leaders speak in terms that seem contradictory, it gives ammo to the hard liners in Pakistan to put the pro peace lobby on the back foot! That was my concern. Any reply would be appreciated!

Ciao

dost-mittar #97:
Isn`t hamidm making the same statement that taking visibly different identity to absurd extremes is counterproductive? Most of his posts do picture an extreme situation of desi practices but you have to bear in mind that in identity backed by religions, more is better and miximum is best. Five times a day prayer is better than once a week and extend thhis to all other visible practices of identity. The wrong assumption underlying to be perfect in identity is to act as close to the original as possible. That might have some benefits in socializing back home or within same culture or religion abroad. However, the negative side is isolationism and falling behind in the race. The topi-sherwani-pajama-dhoti combinations do not and would not help in acceptance, forget about assimilation that comes after acceptance. The Gandhi dress would not win a single election anywhere in USA from mayor, sherrif of a city to any national level office.

Additionally, a distinct modset is associated with extreme visible practices of identity. A Jinnah cap-sherwani clad is more likely to consider western culture decadent, trying to isolate his family from the evil influence, leaving behind another generation to keep fighting and sweating for mere acceptance. Some of them will undoubtedly achieve quality education and become respectable but more of the second generation would have achieved same or even higher status without the influence of protecting and preserving identity the wrong way.

Japanese American have one of the highest per capita income in America. Most of them can`t speak Japanese, all of them converted to Christianity but the Japanese identity exists and exists quite remarkably except for making a strange looking intentional display of it. The atheist ashkenazi Jews have not lost their Jewish identity without practicing or doing anything remotely Jewish. On the otherhand, their hassidic brother with weird displays are nowhere close in achievement except for one or two billionaires and computers/ cameras shops in NY. There is definitely downside to publically displaying practices of identity than identity as a state of mind for Japanese Americans and Ashkenazi Jewish Americans.

Gandhi should be known for his political deeds and not for his looks. What worked in one arena to unite people against colonialism would not necessarily have any positive impact in other areas. Unfortunately the adoration and admiration of a person for achieving something great or producing something remarkable is used to elevate irrelevent and other aspects of one`s work or personality. Using A to elevate B and then using elevated B position to jack up A is very common human nature. However there is no justification for ``Gandhi Gandhi kardi ni meiN aapay Gandhi hoi`` (substituting Gandhi with Ranjha). Iqbal has become best philosopher, best poet, best father, best Islamist, best socialist, good lookig and handsome for his admirable role in independent movement (from Pakistani perspective). I can not even say that a great Sufi A was a so-so poet because people will be chasing me for ``dishonoring``.

re: ana-dobarah

I am still waiting for a reply and when I get it, I will post that email in my ilog. Please keep checking journal entries there...

As to the Briton and Punjab Club - the problem was solved a jacket was borrowed from one of the waiters and given to the Briton in question!

Sorry for the delay in the reply section!

Ciao

rsaxena,
Though I find it difficult to understand much of what Studebaker says,leave alone agree with him, please lets not descend to these levels. He does seem fairly confused(even to a fellow bong!:)) but these are confusing times fort he best of us!
That said,Studebaker,how you know Vajpayee is impotent beats me.I mean,most of us live in the West,we should know being single doesn`t mean not having sex.Since (I assume)you have never slept with Vajpayee,how would you know?I agree the formation of Bangladesh in a sense did overturn the partition,though.Even when Bangladeshis are angry with India(which I have to say they often are,what would you expect of a nation of Bengalis all in their own world:)),they still shudder at the thought of what happened in 71.

tahmed32:
I am also an admirer of the Chinese model of immigration assimilation: no flaunting of their successes, no false screams re. discrimination, no berating of the host culture or morals, and in general making all attempts not to stick out like a sore thumb, even adjusting their restaurant food so that it tastes different in an Indian Chinese restaurant than in a North American one.
Still, they retain pride in their culture and what`s important in it - the confucian ethics and the family values and their language - a third generation chinese is much more likely to know the chinese language than a second generation Indian.

The pakistani State speaks -

`We don`t trust you [India] when you say we should focus on trade. We see it as an attempt to sideline the main issue of Kashmir.` That one sound byte from Pervez Musharraf tells all -- about his abusive abrasiveness and dripping hatred towards India. The words confirm that the man is not a diplomat but a demon when it comes to India.

re:#94 by ferozk
``My problem is that the Indian leadership is not articulating a clear policy vis-a-vis Pakistan. Sinha say some thing, Ferandes says an other thing and Advani counterdicts them both! ABV says another thing! Who is speaking for India?``
Indian leadership reflects the mood of the people unlike your dictator who has his own personal moods. Each of the above leaders viz fernandez, Advani, ABV are leaders within their own rights and respond the way they think it fit. This is not an autocracy where one says and everyone follows (that is how it was with Mrs gandhi). This is a multi-party coalition with some powerful regional players calling the shots. Each reflects his own mood. So, consensus is hard to achieve, especially on the vexed question of talks with Pakistan. ABV was really being bold when he went against the popular mood and offered peace talks with Pakistan. I bet people like Fernandez, L.K. Advani do not like it one bit but for the moment they are going with the popular mood. Media hailed ABV`s decision as ``statesman like``. Many Paki commentators had said similar things about his decision to call for talks.

When a general consensus is emerging in India to start having peace talks with Pak, Pak`s dictator had no business to viciate the atmosphere. It is best that he remains in the background. This guy is a fukcing moron. He may be a patriotic Paki but he is a moron. He should just stick to licking Uncle Sam`s A$$, at which he has now become quite adept.
His interview had the predictable response from the hardliner L.K. Advani:
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=311374
Sridhar

re: dost-mittar

{What`s your preferred alternative? }

...12-head`s preferred alternative is to be a taliban military dictator`s bitch...

hamidm:
``would you hire a baby sitter with forty earrings, pink hair and a studded dog collar?``
They teach in Jesuit schools that the best way to counter an argument is take it to an absurd extreme and destroy that extreme. In any case, I think that the younger generation is a lot more tolerant than yours and mine. Here at chowk, I am considered a liberal; at home, with the same views, I am the resident bigot.
My argument about cultural/climate-specific dress pertained to people native to their countries, for example shalwar-kameez in Pakistan or kurta-pajama in India. I am all for behaving in Rome like the Romans, although `Rome` itself is now changing all the time and no longer static. It is easy to deride Gandhi as the half-naked fakir but without his lion-cloth, I wonder if he would have successfully converted the Congress from a country club to a mass-based party. Of course, if you believe that only country clubs should decide the fate of a people, that`s another story.

Tipu#91
``Minority are no better of DUE to Democracy``
What`s your preferred alternative?

hamidm2 #93 ``mobutu with his leopard skins, jomo kenyatta with his fly whisks, nehru with his silly paper hat, bhutto with his awami suits, mao with his drab blue tunics, zia with his achkans, osama with his prophetic flowing robes, king fahd with his ridiculous night gowns, rajiv gandhi with his pajamas, mullah omar with his turban and the biggest actor of them all, gandhi ji who disgraced the entire indian nation by running around half naked ``

hee! hee!
you forgot mullah omar`s blanket that he claimed belonged to the holy prophet (the nights get chilly in the desert i suppose). you also forgot mullah fazloos emperor-like robes. you also forgot saddam husseins complete wardrobe of dresses: his arab warrior outfit, his english country gentleman outfit, his playboy outfit (although it looked more like his pimp outfit), his pious-man-saying-prayers outfit. And need i mention the acres of flowing robes and headcoverings that african rulers and finance ministers put on to reflect their supposed heritage. And you forgot that fancy overcoat with loose sleeves hanging on the side that Karzai puts on.

Meanwhile, the guys who call the shots and make these guys sing and dance in their fancy ``national`` dresses (or who cause them to forget their fancy wardrobes and run off into hiding like mullah omar and hussein) wear plain black business suits, no different than joe salesman trying to sell you furniture.

re: sameerjb # 78

It is happening in Pakistan, even we speak!

Ciao

re:rsridhar # 87

I also read that interview, but will have to read again to come to an opinion. Generally, I tend to ignore such interviews, because I do not get to ``see`` the body language! As to the Indian view of Musharraf, it is can be understood. Still, there is a Pakistani view of Indians and between the two of them, we have a problem! :)

You have a sense of distrust about Musharraf and I do not trust the bona fides of the present Indian leadership. My problem is that the Indian leadership is not articulating a clear policy vis-a-vis Pakistan. Sinha say some thing, Ferandes says an other thing and Advani counterdicts them both! ABV says another thing! Who is speaking for India? Today Advani said something which made a lot of sense. He said that India would talk to Muharraf and not Jamali, because Musharraf is ``in charge`` and he speaks for Pakistan. At least you know who our spokesperson is, but sir, who is your spokesperson? There is a lot of confusion in Pakistan about who really speaks for Indian intentions in India.

Hence, distrust is common on both sides of the divide!

re: dost-mittar # 84

Absolutely agreed, because any political system created by wo/man will be flawed, because we humans are flawed ourselves!

The trynny of the majority is not specific to a referandum, but can exist in a parliamentary system or a presidential system and will exist, as long as the principle of majority rule is considered as the sina qua non for a democratic system. Yes, there are problems and the questions/issues/points you raised and valid and I agree, my hypothesis is not perfect. A larger part of the problem resides in our lack of education, social awareness, emotionalism, ethnic divisions, and issues, which seek to polarize instead of fuse the politics in Pakistan or India, for that matter.

You and I, Indians and Pakistanis, are an emotional lot and I can see this every time I visit Chowk and our sense of nationalism combined with emotionalism, or hyper nationalism, makes us issue specific. In order words, we concentrate so much on the details that we lose the over all picture - we miss the graphic for the pixels! The idea, I was discussing needs political maturity to suceed and we are not capable of that yet. We keep talking about secular politics, but we never discuss politics without an emotional influence! We need to create a wall seperating politics from emotion and once, we remove emotion from politics, we can progress.

I still believe in populalism, but maybe the time is not right...but that is another debate!

Ciao

jay #88 On chowk, you have consistently demonstrated joy in the miseries of poor people in pakistan. You have equally consistently demonstrated a lack of concern for the equal, and indeed in many cases much greater, miseries of poor people in your own country. You have only one agenda in your mind, which is to promote mindless divisions and hatreds among people.

You are a characterless individual driven by pathological hatreds. And by now you have become a total bore with your routine, single tune nonesense. So go to hell.

dost-mittar,

.........you are wrong when you say, ``man or a woman is no longer judged by what s/he wears but what s/he is``..............would you hire a baby sitter with forty earrings, pink hair and a studded dog collar? .......... i can understand a teenager for their ridiculous fashion statements – it is a sign of rebellion caused by raging hormones, and we all did it – but there is no excuse for an adult to look like willie nelson, unless they are willie nelson..........the way a person dresses says a lot about them..........specially third-world natives who are still hung up on silliness like the injustice of colonialism and other ancient history and would rather run around naked with a bone through their nose, than dress up decently like a white man ......... it is cheap histrionics perfected by manipulative populists like mobutu with his leopard skins, jomo kenyatta with his fly whisks, nehru with his silly paper hat, bhutto with his awami suits, mao with his drab blue tunics, zia with his achkans, osama with his prophetic flowing robes, king fahd with his ridiculous night gowns, rajiv gandhi with his pajamas, mullah omar with his turban and the biggest actor of them all, gandhi ji who disgraced the entire indian nation by running around half naked ..........what the heck was all that about?

........and how should we judge the mullahs with their beards, the sisters with their hijabs, and the shiv sena in their khaki shorts and war-paint on their foreheads ?...........are you suggesting that we should not judge these people based on their appearance..........how silly can you get!

............dressing up in “native clothes” and walking around toronto or new york is not as innocuous as you might think, it is the symptom of a potentially dangerous disease ..........it shows a resistance to assimilation and a deep rooted hostility towards the native culture...........i am not suggesting that everyone in a clown suit and big toe strap chappals is trying to make a political statement (some of them are simply feeble minded), but there is more to it than meets the eye..............

``Potentially, Pakistan should be an attractive place for fdi. It has an energetic, intelligent, hard working population that has shown what it can do given the chance. The major things needed is political stability.``

tahmed, wake up from the delusions. Yes NWFP has political stability, and the energetic youth are busy pulling down the posters, sabotaging pipelenes, killing police recruits.
Problem with pakistnis is that they have a warped mind, typified by yours, never accepts the truth, under the delusion that it is all a matter giving a spin.
Yes pak GNP is growing, but in the streets of pakistan the beggers havnt got the news. thamed, pl do write in urdu, what is the word in urdu for GNP, put up the posters of GNP growth every where, so that the poor can eat the posters, may be even ehdi foundation can use it as body bags.

dost mittar #82 On musharaff, if the economy continues to pick up, then perhaps the price of a military dictator would be worth it in the long run.

On clothes and chinese, my wife observes and i agree that chinese in the US tend to dress very well (in simple clothes, but with smart cuts) and also tend to keep fit (an obese chinese in the US is a rarity). The chinese have completely discarded their traditional dress in the US, and i think that has done them no harm at all - they have maintained what is more important, namely their strong values favoring education, family ties, enterprise and hard work. The only thing they lack is the ability to drive. I am glad to see more and more indians as well as pakistanis beginning to dress like normal people in the US and also take better care of themselves by going to the gym.

The ugliest dress i have seen anywhere is shalwar kameez without the dupatta, particularly when worn by a woman with a michelin man figure.

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re:#50 by ferozk
Thanks for your post. Your honesty in teasing out problems is commendable.
I agree that it is a difficult task. Introspection can be painful sometimes. In case of Pakistan, they need to shed a lot of baggage.
However, i am disappointed with Musharraf. At least i would have thought that Mushy will say the right things and set the tone for peace. But, in a recent interview with Pranab Roy of NDTV, he did not rule our future Kargils.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_281400,0012.htm
Now, Kargil is a big deal with Indians. In one stroke, Kargil undid all the good things that peace makers and bollywood movies had been doing viz making a case for peace with Pakistan. Post-Kargil, even a child in remote South hates Pakistan. So, when Musharraf,the self appointed dictator, gave the interview, one would have thought he would be willing to accept responsibility for Kargil. After all, Kargil was a great tactitcal blunder. But NO. Mushy was unrepentant. He also did not accept that elections in J and K (which have been hailed as free and fair by the world media) meant anything.
So, Indians have to wait for someone else. There can be no peace as long as this joker is running the country, trying to usher in his brand of ``democratic dictatorship``. India is simply loathe to talk to a dictator who has not only inflicted deep wounds but who is also unrepentent.
Sridhar

#82
``than the lose kurtas``. I meant loose kurtas!

ferozk:
The swiss model may work in a small, homogeneous country but not in large, diverse countries like India and Pakistan with competing interests. I can see why, with your experience of Pakistan, you are attracted to political populism, but the use of referendums to decide important issues would merely result in a tyranny of the majority in those societies. Guess what the result of a referendum in Pakistan would be on whether or not sharia should be enforced in the country or whether ahmedis should be treated as the new ``achhoots``, or whether a woman with lose character should be be paraded naked in the streets. And no prize for guessing what the result of a referendum on babri masjid would be in India.
Controversial issues involving competing interests are best resolved in a political setting like a legislature where men and women are elected to resolve important national issues through the age old method of political compromises.
The majority may or may not need democracy to safeguard its interests, but the minority does because it will always lose out in a referendum.

post#52[the man in the gray flannel suit!]
You would have fit very well in the `fifties, that is before the world discovered the word `diversity`,- tattoos, nose-tongue-navel-eye rings, spiked hair, bald hair, pink hair, purple hair, baggy trousers and what not (not my cups of tea either but that`s what the American revolution means these days). Or maybe you should say that not just Pakistan but the whole world is going to the pot. What I am trying to say is that a man or a woman is no longer judged by what s/he wears but what s/he is.
I love the blazing colours and diversity of dresses and constumes I see in India and Pakistan. I would be sad if all Indians started wearing pants and shirts and all women started wearing skirts. Gosh, even bollywood would lose whatever attraction it has.
If I had your talent, I would probably call a tie a noose-around-the-neck and give similar terms of ridicule to the western type of dressing, which are the only ones I feel comfortable in, even though I would suggest that they are less practical ones for the subcontinental climate than the lose kurtas, etc.

tahmed32:
``I have this sinking feeling that F.M Romair may have been right all along... :-( ``
...and dost-mittar, too. :-)

sameerjb:
When I said that one needs identity only 10%, I did not mean it`s unimportant. Ask Chinese, Japanese, Koreans and even Canadians (more later!). They are like the roots that nourish a tree, it may be only 10% or less of the tree but a strong tree needs strong roots.
Pakistan`s identity crisis is quite similar to Canada`s. We too constantly define ourselves in terms of our southern elephant and take pride in being not-american. We have even bigger problem because we cant latch on to a different religion and presumed different geographic heritage. So, we try to define ourselves in abstract terms - we assert that we are a mosaic while the U.S is a melting pot; though the fact is that America is no longer a melting pot and a second generation immigrant acts like a Canadian more than a second generation American immigrant. We now tend to define ourselves as a more caring society with better medicare and social safety net, although there too the differences are not as great as we would like to believe and the gap is narrowing. So, the search goes on even here!

hamidm #72 I agree that as Pakistanis we need to worry about our problems rather than China`s future (which in all likelihood is to come within spitting distance of the rich countries in 2-3 decades - and its double digit growth rates over a sustained period of 15 years is indeed remarkable and good news for the entire world).

Things are improving for Pakistan actually, with the GNP growth rate being steadily increased over the past couple of years. While no fan of military general, I am beginning to think that Musharaff deserves credit for pulling together a strong economic team that has been stabilizing things through a number of public and not so public measures. One of the things that do not find their way into the press for example is that the outflow of capital that was taking place under thugs like BB and NS has virtually ended now, and this team deserves partial (not full, since their job was made easier by greater interest in flow of funds by US authorities after 9/11) credit for it. This has contributed to the building up of foreign exchange reserves as well as other more public things like inflow of funds, loan restructuring etc.

Potentially, Pakistan should be an attractive place for fdi. It has an energetic, intelligent, hard working population that has shown what it can do given the chance. The major things needed is political stability. And this may mean a continuing role for Musharaff. I have this sinking feeling that F.M Romair may have been right all along... :-(

re: rsridhar

...china as a country has outdone india over the past 10 years...that is quite clear..my problem was with comparing to japan or europe....

...in the US, indians may have done better but how does it help india?....indians are greedy and corrupt...they all take their government subsidized IIT degrees and run off, rarely ever looking back at their country....the chinese are much smarter in that regard....much of the foreign capital flowing into china is from chinese living overseas...there is something to learn from them...

re:#61 by rsaxena
I used to work with chinese in a ChinaTown Clinic in New York. As a pediatrician (before i became a neonatologist), i had to work in that clinic once a week.
Chinese are friendly people and very proud of their achievements. But in US, we Indians outclass them anytime of day or night! In years to come, India will outclass China. Indians have to patiently build on the great legacy of democracy, secularism and now, free market. If India becomes a knowledge based economy (which it is fast becoming), the gains will be permanent, since knowledge is both permanent and something to build on.
Sridhar

Thanks hamidm. I look forward to reading more.

FerozK:
``It is a circus called Pakistan`` does not describe quite well the gist of your article. It is a circus in Pakistan where public is watching or not watching from outside but the people participating could not be more happy. Where else in the world, a 22 grade general ends up as much grab of residential land as in Pakistan plus other several benefits. The mullahs are prtty happy for the power through religion without contributing any taxes, without any skills to earn decent living, without having a business and without regular salaries. The feudals are happy in this circus because they can`t lose no matter what happens to Pakistan or government. Bureaucracy can`t lose because they actually run the system. America can not lose when Shaukat Aziz asks for 1.5 billion dollars to offset the loss to Pakistan by joining anti-terror campaign while according to Centcom own website, cost to Pakistan was around 10 billion dollars. India can`t lose because they have already seen his talent in Kargil. BB and NS can`t lose becuase, like us, they are sitting abroad. People of Pakistan are the sole loser and through that state of Pakistan. Why should any of them do anything for Pakistan when they have no stake in success and majority stake in case of losing.

If tomorrow they stand up against the circus, I don`t think we have any moral right to tell them not to do it. If state fails to protect poor, women and minorities, shouldn`t they be vigilant and producing vigilantis?

sameerjb,

sorry for the digression with young rsaxena - we will continue with his education some other time ........

.......... now, i am sure urstruly has to elabortate on his views on why desi women in north america have to make a spectacle out of themselves by dressing up in saris and shalwar kameez ...... i am sure he will talk about modesty and cultural heritage, and in the same breath also talk about freedom of expression, multiculturalism, democracy and the decadence of the west ............. what really bothers me is when some of these women put on shiny white sneakers (joggers) under their sari or pajama and go for a stroll in manhattan ........the only thing worse than this is when brothers line up in central park and put on a show for maghrib prayers .............. what if the guys from papua new guinea decided to take off their clothes, stick a bone through their nose, and roast a human head in central park ?..........it is their culture ........

urstruly - over to you ..........

re: ustruly

{laholwilla quwat illa billa}

..yeah, may you find a sweet man to satisfy your needs too

The thread has been hijacked by imbiciles and hindus, just as I was thinking of interacting. laholwilla quwat illa billa.

Stop this irrelevent divergence and hamidm: you promised yesterday a post about women pajamas.....nazarhayatkhan is on hunger strike and naqshbandi standing in the icy waters on one foot in the foothills of himalaya doing chilla,,,,,only to reads about it.

hamidm,


....please tell us: how many socks can a chapta buy at gucci off his $900/year average income compared to a japanese with his $35,000/year income?....very simple question, isn`t it....even a mckinsey secretary can answer that one...

{and accenture is not a ``real`` management consulting company }

...exactly, that`s why you should quit...it is like working for charles schwab and calling yourself an investment banker....

...and since when did atkearney become a ``real management`` consulting firm?...the rejects from mckinsey and bain go there....anyway, if china overtook the US, why is it attracting so much less FDI?...

rsaxena,

......... if you remember, it was you who brought up the paki obsession with china .......... the whole world is obsessed with china (with the exception of india, of course!).......... it might be my imagination, but it seems that indians seem to be rather prickly whenever someone mentions china .......... it is not unlike the muslims, who get all wound up whenever somone mentions the progress made by western civilization and start ranting and raving about the decadence of the west ......... little boys never outgrow p%ni$-envy!

......... and accenture is not a ``real`` management consulting company - don`t let them fool you!


tahmed,

... you are right, the us still ranks #1 in fdi but according to a ``real`` consulting firm, ``for the first time in five years, China overtook the U.S. as the most attractive foreign investment destination`` :

http://www.atkearney.com/main.taf?p=5,3,1,51..............

.... but i was talking about the trend ............ a lot of us have been saying that no one can sustain a double digit growth year after year, but the chinese keep on proving us wrong ........ who knows, like the japanese, they might come to a screeching halt, but for now they look unstoppable .........

...... but why are talking about china?......... let`s go back to discussing the merits of swiss style democracy ........ i can`t believe ferozk !............. we should be talking about how to get the water buffaloes off the streets instead of discussing the evils of campaign financing in the us !......... i am equally guilty - an educated desi is a moron (not an oxymoron, just a moron).................

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hamidam dada,

.....you are losing it....your obsession with india is as bad as that of naqshabandis and urstrulys who you love to mock...


....i talked about your comparison of china and japan...expectedly, you couldn`t stand it and dragged india in to divert attention...tsk tsk...i thought you were smarter than that...seriously....no one is denying china has outpaced india....

...can you calculate for me how many chaptas can buy a sock at gucci with their $900/year average income?....(yes, more sock than an indian can, but that`s beside the point)....now do you know how much an average japanese with his/her $35,000/year income can buy?...sniff some heeng if it helps....

re: hamidm

{and the surprising thing is that these stores are packed with chinese women with perfect teeth and cash to spend ............ }

...yes, and come to africa with me and in every capital i can find you a high-end boutique with a pack of even better looking women and more cash to spend....while elsewhere in the country tribes hack each other to death over the village`s last piece of bread...

....is this the type of analytical thinking you learnt in management consulting?...tsk tsk...must be from accenture or something....

hamidm: while we are tossing numbers around ($54b fdi for China, $4.3b India, $0.5b Pakistan) let me toss one more in: $500b for US. And this was after dot com: in 2000 it was $1t (as in trillion). Make these numbers per capita and the difference between South Asia vs. China vs. US becomes even more striking.

re: SR # 51

Well said!

I think that Temporal and I had decided on the envitable some time back in 1999, when T posted an interact suggesting that whole structure needs to kicked down and re-constructed. You will have no agruments from me on this idea.

SR, this article is, when you think about it, really incomplete. In the sense, it was more a cry of the heart than an attempt at analysis. Many things could have been said, but due to limits of space and attention span of chowkies, had to left unsaid.

re: dost-mittar # 60

My reasons for stating those observations was, because I seem to moving more towards political populalism and to me, from that vantage point, democracy as it exists in the United States and much of the western world is flawed.

Democracy is the idea that majority of the people decide, but where is that decision when the issues are decided by representives representing people? This is has been a painful process, because I am coming to the realization that democracy - effective democracy - can only be attained when we get rid of the ``middle wo/men`` in the electoral process. Let me explain. The legislators should debate and frame the issues, but they cannot decide on them and make policy. That choice is for the people. The people should be presented with the debate and allowed to settle the issue.

I am leaning towards the system of Swiss styled political process; settle issues with referandums in which a simple majority wins. This will side line the special interest groups and will, empower the people politically. If the idea behind democracy is to empower the people, it does not. The present system is in fact against democracy, because it is more timocratic. Money and wealth should not be the qualification for public office!

In this, I agree with you in the sense that this idea goes beyond the grass roots level; it goes directly into the soil of democracy!

As to CC, it will not oppose Bush as long as Bush supports the Isreali version and the minute Bush seeks to rein in Tel Aviv, you will see a reaction!

Hope this clarifies!

Ciao

hamidm...hehe! that was hilarious....

but seriously i think the shalwar kameez is a VERY elegant form of dress for both men and women. A clean and crispy white shalwar kameez with a black chadar thrown partially over the shoulder..looks cool and sophisticated..AND is very comfortable If one then adds a green imamah to the outfit too...perfection!

As for Pakistani women in elegant ladies` shalwar kameez--they look amazing! Shalwar Kameez is chic and much more attractive than the sari...

Having pride in one`s national dress is important...! Heck I am in the UK but I **sometimes** wear my shalwar kameez and imamah to university....

ofcourse the dress must be clean and ironed...

...

***

re: dost-mittar

{You have pointed out to the hold of the christian coalition on the republican party, yet you have noticed that this coalition has not been able to stop Bush from following a middle east policy against its beliefs, and if it fails in the end, it will be for reasons other than the Christian right. }

...the christian coalition has forced anti-abortion laws, got bush to funnel federal tax money to religious charities (illegal), and is fighting programs to distribute condoms and needles that can prevent the spread of HIV...worst of all, bush seeks divine help in making national security decisions...if a nuclear bomb is headed our way, i don`t want bush on his knees asking jesus what to do...i`d rather have clinton`s brain at work and on the phone...

rsaxena

..........been to shanghai lately? ...... since you mentioned gucci, shanghai is one of the few cities that has two, not one, gucci stores - check out the new one in shanghai times square on huai hai zhong road.......... and the surprising thing is that these stores are packed with chinese women with perfect teeth and cash to spend ............

......... the chinese transformation over the last ten years has been nothing short of miraculous ......... sure they still have a lot of peasents with bad teeth but they all seem to have a chicken in the pot and a color tv......... as my friend raj kanthadi says, `` indians need to stop comparing themselves to china, there is no comparison - they fall in diametrically opposite quadrants on any two by two`` ........... and if you don`t believe raj, walk down the hall and talk to anyone who has done a gig in shanghai or guangzhou ............shanghai is the only place left on earth where clients don`t quibble over consulting fees, you are always walking distance from a starbucks, has a maglev train that goes at 270 mph and, according to zubin metha (another indian), has a symphony orchestra that will give the tin band in new york a run for the money............

............ anyway, let`s not waste our time worrying about the chinese .............so what if they had $54B in fdi last year and we had less than 500M (the horrible hindoos scrounged up 4.3B) ........we dont believe in all this fdi and globalization crap and, in any case, we have better things to do, like fighting over kashmir, digging for ancient temples under ancient mosques and making sure people pray five times a day .............

hamidm2 # 52 - on your good post (write a full fledged article on it)

When Benazir was being elected Prime Minister the first time, the Pathans had this objection `` Khanaa ... How can she be the Prime Minister ... She has to take off her Shalwar even for the small pee.``

#52 hamidm2
i really enjoyed your post.you have good sense of humor.

ferozk#48
I am in unchartered territory in defending the U.S. On Chowk, I have consistently and strongly criticised U.S interventions abroad whether it was in Kosovo, Afghanistan or Iraq. But that was in regard to its external policies; wrt internal matters, despite some of the valid points you make and despite my own misgivings about the republicans on many socio-economic matters, I have a hard time agreeing that it is not a secular democracy.
First, the secular part. Well, being an agnostic, I always had a problem with ``In God we trust`` bit, but I don`t think that`s your problem! Yes, evangelicals are busy doing their thing on tv and in shopping malls, but so are various other religious groups - sunnis, shias, ahmedis, hindus, sikhs, hare-krishnas and anyone else you can think of. The U.S is allowing muslims to convert Americans at an amazing rate despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of its citizens regard that religion to be its enemy number one now.
As for democracy, I agree that money has become a very important factor in the U.S democracy. But as a true democracy, Americans are quite aware of its evil consequences and I am certain that the legislators will take some action to mitigate its effect on the body-politic of America. Moreover, a true democracy is more than elections, as you have yourself pointed out. True democracy in America exists in its grassroots and its institutions and I don`t see any weakening there.
You have pointed out to the hold of the christian coalition on the republican party, yet you have noticed that this coalition has not been able to stop Bush from following a middle east policy against its beliefs, and if it fails in the end, it will be for reasons other than the Christian right. And the U.S media can be accused of many sins but championing of christian right wont be one of them.

hamidm dada, pls don`t compare japan and china...or tokyo and shanghai...or god help, the women of tokyo with those of shanghai...the avg. chinese woman still runs around with discolored teeth and a lampshade on her head...she cannot afford much at gucci in comparison to her japanese counterpart whose average income is several times higher...

...i know pakis have a thing for china, but let`s not get carried away....

there is no harm wearing different dresses,provided these are according to occassion.it remins me a joke.
a woman was roaming naked in thestreet,she was arrested and prosecuted.
judge ask her :``how much load you have to take daily?
she replied:i have 7 kids.
judge set her free by saying what more you expect from a mother of seven.

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``Pakistan will never progress as long as we are determined to bury our heads in the sand and pretend that we do not see the danger``, Ferzok, the answer is right there, there is progress as long as the head is in the sands of arabia.
Pakistan has made tremendous prograess. It was only a few months ago you all used to declare that there are only 3 percent extremists, religious parties ecured on 3 seats. Now they are in the ruling coalition, the identity of pakistan is emerging from the barren hills of NWFP. The sheria law, that should have been in force at the stroke of midnight, is at last creeping up, province by province. Third in command of alquida was found in the house of a pak army major, at last there is convergence in the pak society, military and the mullahs are one with the people.
When blasphemy law deaths entences are not carried out, the people of pakistan are rising to the occasion to enforce it. There is tremendous social movement in pakistan, which the western schooled ones like you are refusing to accept, the movement os towards jihadic islam. It is time that you read the writings on the roads of karachi, marked out by the dead bodies, jihadic republic of pakistan is at the door steps.

hamidm2 #52 Great post, enjoyed reading it. One minor quibble: a shirt and cotton trousers in Pakistan in June or July is not my idea of comfort. The proper thing to wear is a t shirt and shorts if you want to be comfortable. Actually the shalwar kameez is more comfortable than a pant - and there is nothing preventing one from wearing a clean one. And one can look presentable in it if one has a flat belly and not a round one and is not sweating like a pig in it.

dost-mittar:
Need I say more about curtailing the importance of past after reading good posts by SR and hamidm2? I am glad you agreed with me about a very low percent importance to the past in the state affairs but most people from both side wouldn`t agree with us.

Various shapes and sizes of pajamas, caps, beards, sherwanis and dhotis fall within this 10 percent but their symbolic importance is enhanced none other than gandhi, jinnah, nehru, mullah, sadhus, politicians and government officials in both Pakistan and India. The irrational part of identity and nationalism is more visible than the rational one - constitution, rule of law, service to people and freedom. As long as it is not acceptable as less than 10 percent, the point of religious versus secular within it is meaningless. Once its importance is reduced, the coming to agreement on differences is easy. It is tentamount to defeat for Islam and Hinduism to be relegated to less than 10 percent importance from fundamentalists and most Pakistanis point of view. It is in fact acceptance of past as failure than past perfect and golden ages ideas. I, for one, do see last 1000 years of subcontinent as a major failure for public with no freedom, no justice, no local rule, colonialism, authoritarianism etc etc. However, the first picture one sees of Indian or Pakistani PMs, the memory of past stares right in-your-face as if this is what our identity and we are all about. I seriously believe that too much emphasis on half nakedness and pajamas/ dhotis in India too would end up hurting India`s place in the world.

Less than 10 percent importance to past discredits TNT and that is what SR meant by defective birth. However, it does not mean ONT by default. I would have never supported half naked fakirs and topi-sherwani-pajama people knowing too well what half naked fakirs of the past did. The Sufis were half naked fakirs of the past, the moral consultants, never using hands and feet for earning decent living and telling others to sweat, work hard, be this and be that and worrying about internal-external relationship with a nonsensical concept. The descendants of these half naked drive Mercedes, live lavishly, have land and property, win elections yet still begging from poor for more money - niaz, nazrana as I have received a request for donation by mail from Ajmer for the coming urs later this year
(P.S. Sorry to use this example because at another site an ardent follower of Sufis was fuming over lazy and dishonest livelihood of Shiv Kumar Batalvi for being absentee employee of the State Bank of India as if his favorites earned living honestly).

Less than 10 percent also means reducing the importance of Shah Bano case, Babri masjid and Hindutva in India and getting rid of Islam from state affairs in Pakistan. Once we get over it, then importance of pre-Islamic past for Pakistanis make more sense. Under current conditions, it would be merely intellectual curiosity of few individuals.

In cultural terms, the importance of near past can not be ignored. One can not tell us to forget Faiz A. Faiz becuase he died some 20 years ago. What is the future of cholay or pulao in cuisine? Nothing to discuss and that is why culture is best as is and let it evolve whereas languages do need intellectual and official promotion to survive. The culture is the real arena where identity should be practiced and social also to some extent but not state affairs, economy, and secular humanism.

The identity at state or national level is nothing but loyalty or patriotism. It is unfair to undermine and subordinate other identities which are basically cultural and social with decreasing overlap with each other with the distance. This becomes more important when one cultural identity is more closely tied to national identity than the rest leading to other cultural identites to start creating a national identity of their own.

The bottom line is that identity can not bring about prosperity, development, education and success but playing it too much or wrongly can be detrimental.

natives and zulus on park avenue .............

........... i don`t know much about this national identity crap but there should be a law against men wearing ``the national dress`` in public ......... for god`s sake, they are pajamas!......... half the people in pakistan simply roll out of bed in the morning and take to the streets in their night clothes without brushing their teeth or combing their hair - it is appalling! .......... the whole country looks like a set from michael jackson`s thriller or the day after a nuclear holocaust............it is depressing! ......... sure we are poor and all that, but we all don`t have to look like a bunch of beggars .........

.......... have you noticed, that the more backward, impoverished and third-worldy a country is, the more its leaders (and people) are hung up on wearing leopard skins, underwear, dead animals, bed-sheets and night gowns in public .......... you don`t see the japanese or the chinese running around in kimonos and gowns .......... as a matter of fact people in tokyo and shanghai, especially the women, look like they just stepped off the pages of vogue and glamour ..........it is hard not to stare at the smartly dressed women in tokyo - they all look like a million bucks, even the ugly ones! ...........we, on the other hand, are going in the other direction ......... it all started with gandhi who disgraced us by running around half naked with his goat and nieces in tow .......... jinnah, a man with more sense, tried to buck this trend by dressing like a civilized man but even he fell to this idiocy by putting on a silly tunic and a dead sheep on his head ............some might call it political expediency - i call it stupidity .........and nehru, a perfectly intelligent man, went around with a silly paper hat from burger king on his head ............ but everyone from mountbatten to truman humored him by saying,``how quaint, how native``............ the bushmen running around naked in the kalahari desert are native!............ it is not quaint, it is primitive............

...........bhutto, a man who normally wore tailored double breasted suits, tried to curry favor with the masses by putting on pajamas and calling it an awami suit .......like other socialist leaders of the time he also tried to dress up his minions in mao suits with gold and silver braid on the collar - luckily that didn`t last long........during zia`s time people gave up on all good things in life, discovered islam, and started wearing the awami dress to work ........and it has been down hill ever since ........some might argue that a shalwar kameez is more suited to our climate - nonsense!......... a half sleeved cotton shirt with cotton trousers is a lot more comfortable than a six-yard shalwar with a full-sleeve kurta and a waist coat .............and the only people who wear crisp starched white shalwar kurtas and freshly dry-cleaned waist coats are the politicians and drug lords - the rest of the public wears these miserable brown and gray pajamas that are washed once a week and don`t have a fly so that you can pee standing up like a man ...............now, how can you take these people seriously? ............ how can you take a man seriously when he has to squat like a woman to pee? ............how can they take themselves seriously?............walk into any government office (try the gpo in pindi saddar) and you will know what i am talking about .............it looks and smells like a fish market.............people who went to be taken seriously, dress properly......

............. and the only people who dress properly, and are therefore taken seriously, are the military - that is why they rule the country while the rest of the fools are running around in their night clothes feeling native!

p.s. next we will talk about all these silly desi women who insist on wearing native clothes from ``back home`` on park avenue ......... pat buchanan was right when he worried about assimilating zulus in manhattan ............

ferozk #49 So lets see: what is the national dress of pakistan? Sherwani and Jinnah cap. Here is an exercise for you: close your eyes, breathe deeply, and imagine a man wearing a Sherwani and Jinnah cap. Now tell me what face do you see between the Sherwani and the Jinnah cap. If we are both talking about the same country, the face will be that of Jinnah himself. As in the countless Jinnah portraits in public buildings, wearing the ``national dress`` that you wont find anyone wearing on the streets of Pakistan. Indeed, you probably wouldnt have found Jinnah in it either most of the time: only when it came time to pose for the picture or to make speeches. Even he normally wore what was then considered a farangi dress (suit, tie, and even with a monocle and fancy boots that would make any farangi proud) even more than it is today.

No sir. The concept of a national dress is just one more bs. People wear what they want to wear, and in Pakistan it is normally the shalwar kameez and/or pant shirt (with tie and jacket added in case of certain situations like workers in commercial banks, marriage ceremonies and so forth).

Is there hope?

ABSOLUTELY!


Ras

Although all of your other articles are just as well worded and equally well thought out, this one is clearly your best one ever. Not only are your arguments well reasoned, you also have deep feelings and the writing seems to have come straight from the heart. I agree with everything you’ve written but have you not left out an important angle? Perhaps you’ve considered it but decided to leave it unsaid. Maybe it`s not taking the `road less travelled` which created the problem. Perhaps either road may have lead to the same place because the problem was with the traveller?

I am, of course, referring to the idea that all the problems stem from the fundamental reality that the state of Pakistan is untenable because it was flawed in its conceptual design and therefore non-viable as an entity. In other words, could it be a possibility that the state was like a crippled child at birth, born with a genetic defect? It might have been made viable with extraordinary and heroic measures, but given the abuse and neglect in its infancy it died a natural death instead of being able to over come those odds.


What I am saying here applies to the state entity and not necessarily the country. The implication being that the state cannot be reformed. It has to be reorganized. The state entity is the lethal parasite that has choked and killed off the country. The existing state apparatus has to be dismantled and rebuilt from a scratch. In the process it may or may not retain its existing geographic jurisdiction, but the state cannot, and indeed must not, retain its original politico-legal format. The people, the culture, the intellectual heritage, the history and the economy are the things that make up the country. They need to be liberated from the clutches of the colonial-imperial-feudal nexus that is the state.

…SR

re: ana_dobarah # 35

I will have to ask his