The Follies of the Natives

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re:#50 by ferozk
Thanks for your post. Your honesty in teasing out problems is commendable.
I agree that it is a difficult task. Introspection can be painful sometimes. In case of Pakistan, they need to shed a lot of baggage.
However, i am disappointed with Musharraf. At least i would have thought that Mushy will say the right things and set the tone for peace. But, in a recent interview with Pranab Roy of NDTV, he did not rule our future Kargils.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_281400,0012.htm
Now, Kargil is a big deal with Indians. In one stroke, Kargil undid all the good things that peace makers and bollywood movies had been doing viz making a case for peace with Pakistan. Post-Kargil, even a child in remote South hates Pakistan. So, when Musharraf,the self appointed dictator, gave the interview, one would have thought he would be willing to accept responsibility for Kargil. After all, Kargil was a great tactitcal blunder. But NO. Mushy was unrepentant. He also did not accept that elections in J and K (which have been hailed as free and fair by the world media) meant anything.
So, Indians have to wait for someone else. There can be no peace as long as this joker is running the country, trying to usher in his brand of ``democratic dictatorship``. India is simply loathe to talk to a dictator who has not only inflicted deep wounds but who is also unrepentent.
Sridhar

#82
``than the lose kurtas``. I meant loose kurtas!

ferozk:
The swiss model may work in a small, homogeneous country but not in large, diverse countries like India and Pakistan with competing interests. I can see why, with your experience of Pakistan, you are attracted to political populism, but the use of referendums to decide important issues would merely result in a tyranny of the majority in those societies. Guess what the result of a referendum in Pakistan would be on whether or not sharia should be enforced in the country or whether ahmedis should be treated as the new ``achhoots``, or whether a woman with lose character should be be paraded naked in the streets. And no prize for guessing what the result of a referendum on babri masjid would be in India.
Controversial issues involving competing interests are best resolved in a political setting like a legislature where men and women are elected to resolve important national issues through the age old method of political compromises.
The majority may or may not need democracy to safeguard its interests, but the minority does because it will always lose out in a referendum.

post#52[the man in the gray flannel suit!]
You would have fit very well in the `fifties, that is before the world discovered the word `diversity`,- tattoos, nose-tongue-navel-eye rings, spiked hair, bald hair, pink hair, purple hair, baggy trousers and what not (not my cups of tea either but that`s what the American revolution means these days). Or maybe you should say that not just Pakistan but the whole world is going to the pot. What I am trying to say is that a man or a woman is no longer judged by what s/he wears but what s/he is.
I love the blazing colours and diversity of dresses and constumes I see in India and Pakistan. I would be sad if all Indians started wearing pants and shirts and all women started wearing skirts. Gosh, even bollywood would lose whatever attraction it has.
If I had your talent, I would probably call a tie a noose-around-the-neck and give similar terms of ridicule to the western type of dressing, which are the only ones I feel comfortable in, even though I would suggest that they are less practical ones for the subcontinental climate than the lose kurtas, etc.

tahmed32:
``I have this sinking feeling that F.M Romair may have been right all along... :-( ``
...and dost-mittar, too. :-)

sameerjb:
When I said that one needs identity only 10%, I did not mean it`s unimportant. Ask Chinese, Japanese, Koreans and even Canadians (more later!). They are like the roots that nourish a tree, it may be only 10% or less of the tree but a strong tree needs strong roots.
Pakistan`s identity crisis is quite similar to Canada`s. We too constantly define ourselves in terms of our southern elephant and take pride in being not-american. We have even bigger problem because we cant latch on to a different religion and presumed different geographic heritage. So, we try to define ourselves in abstract terms - we assert that we are a mosaic while the U.S is a melting pot; though the fact is that America is no longer a melting pot and a second generation immigrant acts like a Canadian more than a second generation American immigrant. We now tend to define ourselves as a more caring society with better medicare and social safety net, although there too the differences are not as great as we would like to believe and the gap is narrowing. So, the search goes on even here!

hamidm #72 I agree that as Pakistanis we need to worry about our problems rather than China`s future (which in all likelihood is to come within spitting distance of the rich countries in 2-3 decades - and its double digit growth rates over a sustained period of 15 years is indeed remarkable and good news for the entire world).

Things are improving for Pakistan actually, with the GNP growth rate being steadily increased over the past couple of years. While no fan of military general, I am beginning to think that Musharaff deserves credit for pulling together a strong economic team that has been stabilizing things through a number of public and not so public measures. One of the things that do not find their way into the press for example is that the outflow of capital that was taking place under thugs like BB and NS has virtually ended now, and this team deserves partial (not full, since their job was made easier by greater interest in flow of funds by US authorities after 9/11) credit for it. This has contributed to the building up of foreign exchange reserves as well as other more public things like inflow of funds, loan restructuring etc.

Potentially, Pakistan should be an attractive place for fdi. It has an energetic, intelligent, hard working population that has shown what it can do given the chance. The major things needed is political stability. And this may mean a continuing role for Musharaff. I have this sinking feeling that F.M Romair may have been right all along... :-(

re: rsridhar

...china as a country has outdone india over the past 10 years...that is quite clear..my problem was with comparing to japan or europe....

...in the US, indians may have done better but how does it help india?....indians are greedy and corrupt...they all take their government subsidized IIT degrees and run off, rarely ever looking back at their country....the chinese are much smarter in that regard....much of the foreign capital flowing into china is from chinese living overseas...there is something to learn from them...

re:#61 by rsaxena
I used to work with chinese in a ChinaTown Clinic in New York. As a pediatrician (before i became a neonatologist), i had to work in that clinic once a week.
Chinese are friendly people and very proud of their achievements. But in US, we Indians outclass them anytime of day or night! In years to come, India will outclass China. Indians have to patiently build on the great legacy of democracy, secularism and now, free market. If India becomes a knowledge based economy (which it is fast becoming), the gains will be permanent, since knowledge is both permanent and something to build on.
Sridhar

Thanks hamidm. I look forward to reading more.

FerozK:
``It is a circus called Pakistan`` does not describe quite well the gist of your article. It is a circus in Pakistan where public is watching or not watching from outside but the people participating could not be more happy. Where else in the world, a 22 grade general ends up as much grab of residential land as in Pakistan plus other several benefits. The mullahs are prtty happy for the power through religion without contributing any taxes, without any skills to earn decent living, without having a business and without regular salaries. The feudals are happy in this circus because they can`t lose no matter what happens to Pakistan or government. Bureaucracy can`t lose because they actually run the system. America can not lose when Shaukat Aziz asks for 1.5 billion dollars to offset the loss to Pakistan by joining anti-terror campaign while according to Centcom own website, cost to Pakistan was around 10 billion dollars. India can`t lose because they have already seen his talent in Kargil. BB and NS can`t lose becuase, like us, they are sitting abroad. People of Pakistan are the sole loser and through that state of Pakistan. Why should any of them do anything for Pakistan when they have no stake in success and majority stake in case of losing.

If tomorrow they stand up against the circus, I don`t think we have any moral right to tell them not to do it. If state fails to protect poor, women and minorities, shouldn`t they be vigilant and producing vigilantis?

sameerjb,

sorry for the digression with young rsaxena - we will continue with his education some other time ........

.......... now, i am sure urstruly has to elabortate on his views on why desi women in north america have to make a spectacle out of themselves by dressing up in saris and shalwar kameez ...... i am sure he will talk about modesty and cultural heritage, and in the same breath also talk about freedom of expression, multiculturalism, democracy and the decadence of the west ............. what really bothers me is when some of these women put on shiny white sneakers (joggers) under their sari or pajama and go for a stroll in manhattan ........the only thing worse than this is when brothers line up in central park and put on a show for maghrib prayers .............. what if the guys from papua new guinea decided to take off their clothes, stick a bone through their nose, and roast a human head in central park ?..........it is their culture ........

urstruly - over to you ..........

re: ustruly

{laholwilla quwat illa billa}

..yeah, may you find a sweet man to satisfy your needs too

The thread has been hijacked by imbiciles and hindus, just as I was thinking of interacting. laholwilla quwat illa billa.

Stop this irrelevent divergence and hamidm: you promised yesterday a post about women pajamas.....nazarhayatkhan is on hunger strike and naqshbandi standing in the icy waters on one foot in the foothills of himalaya doing chilla,,,,,only to reads about it.

hamidm,


....please tell us: how many socks can a chapta buy at gucci off his $900/year average income compared to a japanese with his $35,000/year income?....very simple question, isn`t it....even a mckinsey secretary can answer that one...

{and accenture is not a ``real`` management consulting company }

...exactly, that`s why you should quit...it is like working for charles schwab and calling yourself an investment banker....

...and since when did atkearney become a ``real management`` consulting firm?...the rejects from mckinsey and bain go there....anyway, if china overtook the US, why is it attracting so much less FDI?...