The Truth About Karachi
Bina Shah June 13, 2003
#90 Posted by ferozk on June 17, 2003 9:16:08 am
Re: Arjun
``Again, I do mean to offend you`` was a typo. It should correctly read as ``Again, I do not mean to offend you``
Para 8, line 9, word 15
Thanks! Sorry for the mistake! My apologies! :)
Ciao
``Again, I do mean to offend you`` was a typo. It should correctly read as ``Again, I do not mean to offend you``
Para 8, line 9, word 15
Thanks! Sorry for the mistake! My apologies! :)
Ciao
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#88 Posted by malik99 on June 17, 2003 9:16:08 am
Bina has a way with words. She weaves the story as if she is making love with words.
#87 Posted by harish_hyd on June 17, 2003 8:28:18 am
#71 by tahmed32 on June 16, 2003 11:14am PT
So it seems Tahmed believes all those Paki Jihadis swarming the valley are in there on a vacation. LOL.
It is evident to anyone who cares that it is Pakistan that is sponsoring the violence in Kashmir. That`s why the routine calls from leaders the world over (most notably the Bush/Powell and Blair/Straw team) to Pakistan to put an end to infiltration.
Before Pakistan started arming Kashmiri youth in 1989, there was no armed struggle in Kashmir. The Indian Army was forced to move in after violence led to general lawlessness there, and the state lost control of things.
Whatever the past, free and fair elections have led to a new sense of hope among Kashmiris weary of the violence. The security forces seem to have got a measure of the terrorists, evident from the large number of terrorists killed all over the valley recently. The relentless pressure applied by Bush on Musharraf (however reluctant he might be) also seems to be having a positive effect. This can only augur well for the Kashmiris.
All in all, the Pakistani game in the valley seems to be coming to an end.
So it seems Tahmed believes all those Paki Jihadis swarming the valley are in there on a vacation. LOL.
It is evident to anyone who cares that it is Pakistan that is sponsoring the violence in Kashmir. That`s why the routine calls from leaders the world over (most notably the Bush/Powell and Blair/Straw team) to Pakistan to put an end to infiltration.
Before Pakistan started arming Kashmiri youth in 1989, there was no armed struggle in Kashmir. The Indian Army was forced to move in after violence led to general lawlessness there, and the state lost control of things.
Whatever the past, free and fair elections have led to a new sense of hope among Kashmiris weary of the violence. The security forces seem to have got a measure of the terrorists, evident from the large number of terrorists killed all over the valley recently. The relentless pressure applied by Bush on Musharraf (however reluctant he might be) also seems to be having a positive effect. This can only augur well for the Kashmiris.
All in all, the Pakistani game in the valley seems to be coming to an end.
#86 Posted by harish_hyd on June 17, 2003 8:28:18 am
#73 by ahmadzai on June 16, 2003 12:21pm PT
[Whereas Pakistanis are more interested in the voice of Kashmiris, Indians are interested only in the land.]
Ah yes, it was India that attempted to steal land in Kargil, ain’t it? You are more deluded than I thought. It can’t get any better than this.
[However, if economic gains from both India and Pakistan are about equal, Kashmiris will align themselves more with Pakistan.]
You can kiss this notion goodbye for at least another hundred years and beyond. India is the fourth-largest economy in the world today and is rapidly catching up with the other three. In stark contrast, where does the Pakistani economy stand? Down in the pits. Forget about that $ 10 billion foreign exchange that you guys have lately begun to boast about. More than 90 % of it is aid and the remaining is remittances from overseas Pakistanis. It’s downright hilarious how you fantasize about being about equals with India despite living on debt-writeoffs and aid. What do you smoke man?
[Musharraf-Jamali led Government is inclined towards economic growth. This, supported by Pakistan`s Islamic identity, would tilt the future Kashmir in Pakistan`s favour. It is because of this aspect alone that extremist fundamentalists of India would like to have extremist fundamentalists in Pakistan for the two belong in the same league - emotionalism and divisions in the civil society to thrive.]
All that is fine. But do you think India is going to let go of Kashmir? There’s no way you’re gonna get those grubby hands of yours on Kashmir. Remember, the last time you tried to steal land in Kargil, circa 1999, your sorry a$$es were reamed like hell. The next time you do it, before India does anything, Uncle Sam will be all over you, a la Iraq.
[Whereas Pakistanis are more interested in the voice of Kashmiris, Indians are interested only in the land.]
Ah yes, it was India that attempted to steal land in Kargil, ain’t it? You are more deluded than I thought. It can’t get any better than this.
[However, if economic gains from both India and Pakistan are about equal, Kashmiris will align themselves more with Pakistan.]
You can kiss this notion goodbye for at least another hundred years and beyond. India is the fourth-largest economy in the world today and is rapidly catching up with the other three. In stark contrast, where does the Pakistani economy stand? Down in the pits. Forget about that $ 10 billion foreign exchange that you guys have lately begun to boast about. More than 90 % of it is aid and the remaining is remittances from overseas Pakistanis. It’s downright hilarious how you fantasize about being about equals with India despite living on debt-writeoffs and aid. What do you smoke man?
[Musharraf-Jamali led Government is inclined towards economic growth. This, supported by Pakistan`s Islamic identity, would tilt the future Kashmir in Pakistan`s favour. It is because of this aspect alone that extremist fundamentalists of India would like to have extremist fundamentalists in Pakistan for the two belong in the same league - emotionalism and divisions in the civil society to thrive.]
All that is fine. But do you think India is going to let go of Kashmir? There’s no way you’re gonna get those grubby hands of yours on Kashmir. Remember, the last time you tried to steal land in Kargil, circa 1999, your sorry a$$es were reamed like hell. The next time you do it, before India does anything, Uncle Sam will be all over you, a la Iraq.
#85 Posted by ferozk on June 17, 2003 8:28:18 am
re: arjun
You simply read and believed what you wanted to!
As to your points 1 & 2; it is both. No one nation singularly created the Taliban. The whole issue and history of Talibanization is more complex and cannot be explained away in simplictic terms, as you suggest. Concerning 3 & 4; yes and that is historically documented. One question though. Why is it okay for the United States to take a policy to defend its interests, but when Pakistan does same, protect its interests, that policy is not okay?
United States also defended its interests by supplying arms to Saddam Hussein and it also defended its interests by supporting Ho Chi Minh against the Japanese in the 1940s. Arjun, in this world, there are no permanent enemies - only permanent interests! By all means, judge a nation`s policy, but judge it in its entire spectrum and not in isolation of its environment based on a single caveat of that policy.
India also supplied weapons to the insurgents in Sri Lanka in the 1980s to protect its interests. Why is that different? You have valid points and I welcome interacts with you, but the hypocrisy of your agrument undermines your own sense of objectivity.
As to saving the band width, you are the one to speak! LOL
Also, if Pakistanis suffer from a myth, so do the Indians! Your myth is that Kashmir is a part of India! :)
My post was titled ``for your information!`` and I had no intentions to refute # 66!
Can I ask you something, without offending you? Why are you so easily slighted? You are the foremost on Chowk to show the flaw in Pakistani logic, but why cannot you accept the flaws in your own logic? Personally speaking, your myopic hatred towards Pakistan is seriously affecting your judgement and you are, I am afraid, personalizing the issues. Please do not do that. I say this in all honesty. Frankly, your interacts have provided me with new perspectives and new considerations to ponder, but the mono-thematic nature of your post minimizes its own value by marginalizing its message as being one of crying ``wolf`` too often. I do not mean to offend you; but your posts are mostly a diatribe restating an idee fixe. My question is this: is introspection only limited to Pakistanis? Can Indians also not learn from it? Again, I do mean to offend you. The problem is that we are all flawed as human beings and we all have our share of problems and limitations. None of us has anything against a judgement being passed on us. However, what we object is when the judge is also the prosecutor and the jury and suffers from an superiority complex.
I cannot convince you of anything, which you do not wish to be convinced of and likewise, you cannot be right all the time, because I have the right to disagree with you. We can both agree on our disagreements and the inequality comes from the intolerance of acceptance. Disagreement does not suggest a refusal as much as it suggests a plurality of opinions and the richness in discussions comes from having different opinions. What is the point of a discussion, when we agree all the time? We are all entitled to our opinions and if our opinions disagree, it only means that is there is no monopoly on truth. It does not mean that one of us is lesser than the other and to do so, shows an intolerance. To castigate thus, without making the allowance to be castigated in return smacks of hypocrisy and that is where the rebuttal is directed - not to the opinion, but the to the hypocrisy inheirent in that opinion.
I hope that one of this has offended you.
Ciao
You simply read and believed what you wanted to!
As to your points 1 & 2; it is both. No one nation singularly created the Taliban. The whole issue and history of Talibanization is more complex and cannot be explained away in simplictic terms, as you suggest. Concerning 3 & 4; yes and that is historically documented. One question though. Why is it okay for the United States to take a policy to defend its interests, but when Pakistan does same, protect its interests, that policy is not okay?
United States also defended its interests by supplying arms to Saddam Hussein and it also defended its interests by supporting Ho Chi Minh against the Japanese in the 1940s. Arjun, in this world, there are no permanent enemies - only permanent interests! By all means, judge a nation`s policy, but judge it in its entire spectrum and not in isolation of its environment based on a single caveat of that policy.
India also supplied weapons to the insurgents in Sri Lanka in the 1980s to protect its interests. Why is that different? You have valid points and I welcome interacts with you, but the hypocrisy of your agrument undermines your own sense of objectivity.
As to saving the band width, you are the one to speak! LOL
Also, if Pakistanis suffer from a myth, so do the Indians! Your myth is that Kashmir is a part of India! :)
My post was titled ``for your information!`` and I had no intentions to refute # 66!
Can I ask you something, without offending you? Why are you so easily slighted? You are the foremost on Chowk to show the flaw in Pakistani logic, but why cannot you accept the flaws in your own logic? Personally speaking, your myopic hatred towards Pakistan is seriously affecting your judgement and you are, I am afraid, personalizing the issues. Please do not do that. I say this in all honesty. Frankly, your interacts have provided me with new perspectives and new considerations to ponder, but the mono-thematic nature of your post minimizes its own value by marginalizing its message as being one of crying ``wolf`` too often. I do not mean to offend you; but your posts are mostly a diatribe restating an idee fixe. My question is this: is introspection only limited to Pakistanis? Can Indians also not learn from it? Again, I do mean to offend you. The problem is that we are all flawed as human beings and we all have our share of problems and limitations. None of us has anything against a judgement being passed on us. However, what we object is when the judge is also the prosecutor and the jury and suffers from an superiority complex.
I cannot convince you of anything, which you do not wish to be convinced of and likewise, you cannot be right all the time, because I have the right to disagree with you. We can both agree on our disagreements and the inequality comes from the intolerance of acceptance. Disagreement does not suggest a refusal as much as it suggests a plurality of opinions and the richness in discussions comes from having different opinions. What is the point of a discussion, when we agree all the time? We are all entitled to our opinions and if our opinions disagree, it only means that is there is no monopoly on truth. It does not mean that one of us is lesser than the other and to do so, shows an intolerance. To castigate thus, without making the allowance to be castigated in return smacks of hypocrisy and that is where the rebuttal is directed - not to the opinion, but the to the hypocrisy inheirent in that opinion.
I hope that one of this has offended you.
Ciao
#84 Posted by jay on June 17, 2003 8:28:17 am
``Who created the Taliban: Saudi Arabia (financing), Pakistan (territorial access to an organizational infrastrure), Islamic Brotherhood in Egypt (weapons and recruits), and the United States ``
Above is from post 69 by ferzok, another pathetic attempt to white wash pakistan and confirmation of the uncountable idea of pakistan. Great inside info from a man who claims to know it all from the inside, connections with US military, cia, but no knowledge of pakistan, let alone of ISI. What fezok has conveniently left out is the fact that most of the taliban were pakistanis, and that is the reason now there is semblence of peace in all through afghanistan save for its pak border. Pakistan provided people, the jihadists and all that the great man of inside knowledge claims is crap, the infrastructure, territory, my foot, that is what comes when most are pakistanis.
Today quantanamo has the highest concentration of pakistanis outside pakistan, and the great insider did not know of it.
Reason is simple, for fezok like other pakistanis, the 50,000 that died by daist cutters were the uncountables.
Above is from post 69 by ferzok, another pathetic attempt to white wash pakistan and confirmation of the uncountable idea of pakistan. Great inside info from a man who claims to know it all from the inside, connections with US military, cia, but no knowledge of pakistan, let alone of ISI. What fezok has conveniently left out is the fact that most of the taliban were pakistanis, and that is the reason now there is semblence of peace in all through afghanistan save for its pak border. Pakistan provided people, the jihadists and all that the great man of inside knowledge claims is crap, the infrastructure, territory, my foot, that is what comes when most are pakistanis.
Today quantanamo has the highest concentration of pakistanis outside pakistan, and the great insider did not know of it.
Reason is simple, for fezok like other pakistanis, the 50,000 that died by daist cutters were the uncountables.
#83 Posted by jay on June 17, 2003 8:27:04 am
This article has been fantastic in chowk response. For once pakistanis are accepting the truth about what is said in western press. Not many attacked an article earlier about the karachi wgich tried to glorify the past as an anesthesis for the present.
The rote of pakistan is starting from all over, from the NWFP through the jihadists in power, from karachi through the ones not in power, from kashmir where they have govt support, and from the homes of military men in islambad through the alquida guest.
What is the word for euthenasia of a nation, call it iraquisation.
The rote of pakistan is starting from all over, from the NWFP through the jihadists in power, from karachi through the ones not in power, from kashmir where they have govt support, and from the homes of military men in islambad through the alquida guest.
What is the word for euthenasia of a nation, call it iraquisation.
#82 Posted by arjun_m on June 17, 2003 8:27:04 am
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#81 Posted by moulabux on June 17, 2003 8:27:04 am
The writer is suffering from delusions. No one feels for the city anymore. It can bleed all it wants, no one gives a rat`s derrier about it. We`ve become immune to murders and other crimes. One should show appreciation where there is due. The Times writer wasn`t indulging in sensationalism; he was spot on -- bull`s eye.
Please refrain from such ceaseless banter in the future.
Cheers.
Please refrain from such ceaseless banter in the future.
Cheers.
#80 Posted by dost_mittar on June 17, 2003 8:27:03 am
Bina:
There is a reason the American journalism invented the word `story` for news items. Before I came to the States in the sixties, the use of the word `story` in an Indian newspaper would have conveyed the idea of fiction. And that`s what the best of American journalism is - a combination of fact and fiction, dramatisation and exaggeration. Once they have decided on the theme of the story, they will not let in any fact which does not support that theme, rather like the Gandhi film where facts not supporting the theme were conveniently ignored.
P.S. I would love to see some ordinary Pakistanis interact on chowk. While Indian interactors seem to come from all family backgrounds, almost all Pakistanis seem to have been born with silver spoons in their mouths and educated in private schools. Even that fake representative of the awaam, Madani, seems to have disappeared. I miss him.
There is a reason the American journalism invented the word `story` for news items. Before I came to the States in the sixties, the use of the word `story` in an Indian newspaper would have conveyed the idea of fiction. And that`s what the best of American journalism is - a combination of fact and fiction, dramatisation and exaggeration. Once they have decided on the theme of the story, they will not let in any fact which does not support that theme, rather like the Gandhi film where facts not supporting the theme were conveniently ignored.
P.S. I would love to see some ordinary Pakistanis interact on chowk. While Indian interactors seem to come from all family backgrounds, almost all Pakistanis seem to have been born with silver spoons in their mouths and educated in private schools. Even that fake representative of the awaam, Madani, seems to have disappeared. I miss him.
#79 Posted by rsridhar on June 17, 2003 8:27:03 am
re: tahmed`s last post to me
Dear Sir,
My response to Ahmedzai followed his following comments to another person regarding the situation in Kashmir:
``Travel to Kashmir and see for themselves how the extremist BJP Government and its ilk along with Tatari military is killing innocent Kashmiris offering political resistance in fake encounters and in custody and claiming to have killed terrorists.``
Now, it has become fashionable to blame everything on BJP. But, to BJP alone goes the credit of having ensured a relatively free and fair State Assembly elections in J and K. Congress govts in the past had rigged every election. This is a great achievement to their credit.
Pakis in chowk have to do more than just blame Army of killing innocent people. I have often said that this is not a fair fight and Army is on a hair trigger. So, some innocent civilians are killed by none of this is deliberate. The terrorist pigs hide behind innocent civilians and blame the govt when latter are killed. Where is the proof that Army is deliberately killing the civilians?
Fake encounters? May be they happen. I think that is the best way to dispose of the terrorist pigs. The law of the land is too tedious and is not meant for terrorists anyway. That is my opinion. We are not fighting a fair war. Terrorists kill innocent people. I have no sympathies for them. Besides, after the state elections, Kashmiris have a legitimate way of addressing their problems. Terrorist pigs have no role to play anymore.
Sridhar
Dear Sir,
My response to Ahmedzai followed his following comments to another person regarding the situation in Kashmir:
``Travel to Kashmir and see for themselves how the extremist BJP Government and its ilk along with Tatari military is killing innocent Kashmiris offering political resistance in fake encounters and in custody and claiming to have killed terrorists.``
Now, it has become fashionable to blame everything on BJP. But, to BJP alone goes the credit of having ensured a relatively free and fair State Assembly elections in J and K. Congress govts in the past had rigged every election. This is a great achievement to their credit.
Pakis in chowk have to do more than just blame Army of killing innocent people. I have often said that this is not a fair fight and Army is on a hair trigger. So, some innocent civilians are killed by none of this is deliberate. The terrorist pigs hide behind innocent civilians and blame the govt when latter are killed. Where is the proof that Army is deliberately killing the civilians?
Fake encounters? May be they happen. I think that is the best way to dispose of the terrorist pigs. The law of the land is too tedious and is not meant for terrorists anyway. That is my opinion. We are not fighting a fair war. Terrorists kill innocent people. I have no sympathies for them. Besides, after the state elections, Kashmiris have a legitimate way of addressing their problems. Terrorist pigs have no role to play anymore.
Sridhar
#78 Posted by yossarian on June 16, 2003 10:58:25 pm
# 76 rsaxena
India didnt slice the country... it just facilitated... that great job was done by Pakis themselves...
Never seen a country (atleast in Asia) that gives so little priority to economic progress and well being of citizens... Karachi is just one instance of manifestation of this harakiri mindset
India didnt slice the country... it just facilitated... that great job was done by Pakis themselves...
Never seen a country (atleast in Asia) that gives so little priority to economic progress and well being of citizens... Karachi is just one instance of manifestation of this harakiri mindset
#77 Posted by fazilatthaver on June 16, 2003 9:43:11 pm
No one is denying the law and order and corruption problems plaguing Karachi. You would have to be a fool to do that. US funding of the Afghan war is undeniable. However, even if you for whatever reason refute that, McGirk`s article made a hair stylist a prominent social commentator. This was just plain bad journalism.
#76 Posted by rsaxena on June 16, 2003 1:57:25 pm
re: ahmadzai
...didn`t you guys have enough when india sliced your country in half in 1971?...now you want it sliced in half again or wiped off the map completely?...
...didn`t you guys have enough when india sliced your country in half in 1971?...now you want it sliced in half again or wiped off the map completely?...
#75 Posted by Ahmadzai on June 16, 2003 1:16:21 pm
Yaarro yeh arjun_m phir under ghuss aa gia, iss koh to main baher baandh ker aai tha.
The only sad story to write about on this website is that in response to some excellent posts e.g. # 69 by Feroz you get to hear not even mediocrity in arjun_m`s posts. This brain-washed follower of the Balls of Thakray, Advani, Joshi and Modi would even deny that he is in this world because of his parents. He will blame it on Pakistanis, specifically on Musharraf.
Readers to please try raising the matter of his parents` contribution to his being in the world - you will discover it yourself.
The only sad story to write about on this website is that in response to some excellent posts e.g. # 69 by Feroz you get to hear not even mediocrity in arjun_m`s posts. This brain-washed follower of the Balls of Thakray, Advani, Joshi and Modi would even deny that he is in this world because of his parents. He will blame it on Pakistanis, specifically on Musharraf.
Readers to please try raising the matter of his parents` contribution to his being in the world - you will discover it yourself.
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