Broken-Hearts, Dream-Filled eyes
Hamid Mahmood July 2, 2003
#42 Posted by rsridhar on July 12, 2003 8:22:21 pm
re:#41 by nasah
Thanx for your post.
Though i agree that the challenge is huge, i am glad there are some people in India who still dream of eradicating poverty from India:
http://www.abdulkalam.com
Excerpts from APJ Abdul Kalam`s (India`s president) speech:
``First Vision : India`s freedom
India laid the seeding of Independence in 1857. Freedom Movement was the first vision for the nation. It took 90 years to get the freedom using multiple methodologies to vacate foreign powers. The vision generated leaders across the political spectrum, many scientific leaders , Industrial leaders, literacy giants, great economists and several accomplished persons. Above all a large number of men, and youth rose as one for the freedom movement
Second Vision - Developed Country
After 50 years of progress, the aspirations are mounting that India should become a developed country. This is the second vision for the nation. How we can prepare ourselves to this challenge? To become a developed India , the essential needs are
(a) India has to be economically and commercially powerful, at least to be one of the four top nations in terms of size of the economy. Our target should be a GDP growth of 9% annually and that the people below poverty line to be reduced to 10 %.
(b) near self-reliance in defence needs of weapon, equipment with no umbilical attached to any outside world.
c). India should have a right place in world forums. Technology Vision 2020 is a pathway to realise this cherished mission.
Technology Vision 2020
The Technology Vision 2020 consisted of 17 technology packages in the core sectors such as agriculture and food, healthcare, infrastructure and strategic industries.The Task Teams with nearly 500 experts of our country worked for two years, deliberated national status of various branches of national development and generated 35 documents detailing the steps to be taken for creating wealth for the nation and the well being of our people. ``Technology`` is the most vital key for achieving the goals.The vision deals with agro food processing, food and agriculture , health-care, electric power, civil aviation, waterways , engineering industries , life sciences and bio-technology, strategic industries and materials and processing. There is a tremendous link between each technology package. For example higher food production and productivity which is essential, can be achieved by incorporating technological excellence in scientific inputs for cultivation, harvesting, storage as well as transportation, distribution, marketing, preservation of seeds, improved pesticides, etc
We have identified five areas where India has a core competence for an integrated action :
Agriculture and food processing - we have to put a target of 360 million tons of food and agriculture and agro food processing would bring prosperity to rural people and speed up the economic growth.
Reliable and quality electric power for all parts of the country.
Education and Healthcare - we have seen, based on the experience education and healthcare are inter related. For example, Kerala with education and better healthcare can bring down the population growth and provide improvements in quality of life of the people.
Similarly, in Tamil Nadu also we have seen the downward growth of population resulting from a unique system of ``mid-day meal`` coupled with education. Studies about Andhra Pradesh also have different facets. These experiences, we feel should be taken and spread in big states like Bihar and Uttar Pradesh. Beginning of agricultural prosperity through better yields in these States will help this process.
Information Technology - This is one of our core competence. We believe this area can be used to promote education in remote areas and also to create national wealth.
Strategic sectors - This area fortunately , witnessed the growth in nuclear technology, space technology and defence technology. Other areas like Advanced Sensors and Materials would need a push. The nation has a plan towards 70% near self-reliance in a decade in defence equipment.
These five areas are closely inter-related and lead to national, food and ecnonomic security. A strong partnership among the R&D, academy, industry and the community as a whole with the Government departments will be essential to accomplish the vision...``.
As the saying goes, everything starts with a dream. With right kind of people and leadership, this dream can become a reality.
Sridhar
Thanx for your post.
Though i agree that the challenge is huge, i am glad there are some people in India who still dream of eradicating poverty from India:
http://www.abdulkalam.com
Excerpts from APJ Abdul Kalam`s (India`s president) speech:
``First Vision : India`s freedom
India laid the seeding of Independence in 1857. Freedom Movement was the first vision for the nation. It took 90 years to get the freedom using multiple methodologies to vacate foreign powers. The vision generated leaders across the political spectrum, many scientific leaders , Industrial leaders, literacy giants, great economists and several accomplished persons. Above all a large number of men, and youth rose as one for the freedom movement
Second Vision - Developed Country
After 50 years of progress, the aspirations are mounting that India should become a developed country. This is the second vision for the nation. How we can prepare ourselves to this challenge? To become a developed India , the essential needs are
(a) India has to be economically and commercially powerful, at least to be one of the four top nations in terms of size of the economy. Our target should be a GDP growth of 9% annually and that the people below poverty line to be reduced to 10 %.
(b) near self-reliance in defence needs of weapon, equipment with no umbilical attached to any outside world.
c). India should have a right place in world forums. Technology Vision 2020 is a pathway to realise this cherished mission.
Technology Vision 2020
The Technology Vision 2020 consisted of 17 technology packages in the core sectors such as agriculture and food, healthcare, infrastructure and strategic industries.The Task Teams with nearly 500 experts of our country worked for two years, deliberated national status of various branches of national development and generated 35 documents detailing the steps to be taken for creating wealth for the nation and the well being of our people. ``Technology`` is the most vital key for achieving the goals.The vision deals with agro food processing, food and agriculture , health-care, electric power, civil aviation, waterways , engineering industries , life sciences and bio-technology, strategic industries and materials and processing. There is a tremendous link between each technology package. For example higher food production and productivity which is essential, can be achieved by incorporating technological excellence in scientific inputs for cultivation, harvesting, storage as well as transportation, distribution, marketing, preservation of seeds, improved pesticides, etc
We have identified five areas where India has a core competence for an integrated action :
Agriculture and food processing - we have to put a target of 360 million tons of food and agriculture and agro food processing would bring prosperity to rural people and speed up the economic growth.
Reliable and quality electric power for all parts of the country.
Education and Healthcare - we have seen, based on the experience education and healthcare are inter related. For example, Kerala with education and better healthcare can bring down the population growth and provide improvements in quality of life of the people.
Similarly, in Tamil Nadu also we have seen the downward growth of population resulting from a unique system of ``mid-day meal`` coupled with education. Studies about Andhra Pradesh also have different facets. These experiences, we feel should be taken and spread in big states like Bihar and Uttar Pradesh. Beginning of agricultural prosperity through better yields in these States will help this process.
Information Technology - This is one of our core competence. We believe this area can be used to promote education in remote areas and also to create national wealth.
Strategic sectors - This area fortunately , witnessed the growth in nuclear technology, space technology and defence technology. Other areas like Advanced Sensors and Materials would need a push. The nation has a plan towards 70% near self-reliance in a decade in defence equipment.
These five areas are closely inter-related and lead to national, food and ecnonomic security. A strong partnership among the R&D, academy, industry and the community as a whole with the Government departments will be essential to accomplish the vision...``.
As the saying goes, everything starts with a dream. With right kind of people and leadership, this dream can become a reality.
Sridhar
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#41 Posted by nasah on July 11, 2003 7:23:24 am
dear sridhar - we in India -- or what to talk of India --we all over Asia and Africa --
whether we are socialist, communists, liberal, conservative, religious moderates or religious fanatics, educated moderates or educated fanatics -- we all have decided sometime back in the 70`s -- that we cannot eradicate poverty and human degradation of 70% of our masses any time soon in the future --
that it is chasing a will o the wisp -- that it is not even a rainbow now -- that it is an impossible dream -- that it is a monumentally expensive unachievable mirage -- that it simply cannot be done...
and that in all Asian countries -- particularly in democratic India -- we HAVE to abandon this unrealistic dream of poverty eradication of the masses --
we are so pathetic...
that we cannot squander our resources on the POOR -- that if we have to ` modernize` -- then almost all of the country resources will have to be used/spent on an educated minority of elitist hi-tech middle class and upper middle class men and women who will RULE the Roost -- in every sphere of country`s life
that we will have to leave behind the majority of poor in their holes and move on in the IT age of globalization –
that only a minority of elitist that`s all we can afford -- while the 70% of the our masses will have to rot the same way they have been rotting in the rat holes of poverty and pestilence for centuries --
even those goddamn communists and socialists idealists have given up on the subcontinental masses --
a sad commentary on the state of affairs in our country and on our `old culture` ... we all brag about so profusely and cut down each other -- on Chowk -- for some rotten real estate in that poor-- rotten to the core -- now nuclearized subcontinent -- of starving illiterate unsheltered masses....
we ARE pathetic
whether we are socialist, communists, liberal, conservative, religious moderates or religious fanatics, educated moderates or educated fanatics -- we all have decided sometime back in the 70`s -- that we cannot eradicate poverty and human degradation of 70% of our masses any time soon in the future --
that it is chasing a will o the wisp -- that it is not even a rainbow now -- that it is an impossible dream -- that it is a monumentally expensive unachievable mirage -- that it simply cannot be done...
and that in all Asian countries -- particularly in democratic India -- we HAVE to abandon this unrealistic dream of poverty eradication of the masses --
we are so pathetic...
that we cannot squander our resources on the POOR -- that if we have to ` modernize` -- then almost all of the country resources will have to be used/spent on an educated minority of elitist hi-tech middle class and upper middle class men and women who will RULE the Roost -- in every sphere of country`s life
that we will have to leave behind the majority of poor in their holes and move on in the IT age of globalization –
that only a minority of elitist that`s all we can afford -- while the 70% of the our masses will have to rot the same way they have been rotting in the rat holes of poverty and pestilence for centuries --
even those goddamn communists and socialists idealists have given up on the subcontinental masses --
a sad commentary on the state of affairs in our country and on our `old culture` ... we all brag about so profusely and cut down each other -- on Chowk -- for some rotten real estate in that poor-- rotten to the core -- now nuclearized subcontinent -- of starving illiterate unsheltered masses....
we ARE pathetic
#40 Posted by rsridhar on July 10, 2003 8:59:56 am
re: poverty in the subcontinent
This is a great article.
Poverty in India is so visible. When i was in India, i was indifferent to it. It was as if my senses were all benumbed to the fact that there were people who were so poor, that they could not afford to eat one square meal a day.
I remember the day when i saw one poor beggar lying on the ground and dying. He was right in front of the M.S Office of Safdarjung Hospital. And no one bothered to even look at him. People were walking past him as if nothing happened. I was doing a rotation in Pediatric Cardiology and i was with this pretty Punjabi girl, who was doing the same rotation. I remember that we went into M.S office and warned the ``powers be`` that if something was not done about that dying man, the matter would go to the press (the Punjabi girl had some connections!). The matter was speedily resolved. That is to say, the man was removed from that place. What happened to the man? I do not know.
That is what i mean by ``my senses were benumbed``.
Most of us in India behave like poverty does not exist. When some of us come to foreign shores, we forget about poverty. It stares at our face everytime we return for vacation.
I read the news of a poor mother in Tamil Nadu killing her 4th (or 5th?) girl baby at birth as she could not afford to bring this baby up. Female infanticide is a curse on Indian society. There is a great organisation called ``Udhavum Karangal`` (tamil words that mean ``helping hands``) that picks up discarded babies literally from trash and give them a home. I send money to such organisations. But the task is so gigantic that nothing short of a people`s movement will help. In India, people should change their attitudes towards poor and help them whereever they see poverty. In this, much can be learnt from Christians and their philanthropy.
I agree that education for the deprived section is something that NGOs and government should work for. But such education should be skill-oriented, so that the poor can rightaway start earning thr` the newly acquired skills.
Are the people in chowk aware of any good NGOs?
I thank Mr Madani for his kind comments about me. I try to be good but i am not always successful. The demons in me sometimes get the better of me!
Sridhar
This is a great article.
Poverty in India is so visible. When i was in India, i was indifferent to it. It was as if my senses were all benumbed to the fact that there were people who were so poor, that they could not afford to eat one square meal a day.
I remember the day when i saw one poor beggar lying on the ground and dying. He was right in front of the M.S Office of Safdarjung Hospital. And no one bothered to even look at him. People were walking past him as if nothing happened. I was doing a rotation in Pediatric Cardiology and i was with this pretty Punjabi girl, who was doing the same rotation. I remember that we went into M.S office and warned the ``powers be`` that if something was not done about that dying man, the matter would go to the press (the Punjabi girl had some connections!). The matter was speedily resolved. That is to say, the man was removed from that place. What happened to the man? I do not know.
That is what i mean by ``my senses were benumbed``.
Most of us in India behave like poverty does not exist. When some of us come to foreign shores, we forget about poverty. It stares at our face everytime we return for vacation.
I read the news of a poor mother in Tamil Nadu killing her 4th (or 5th?) girl baby at birth as she could not afford to bring this baby up. Female infanticide is a curse on Indian society. There is a great organisation called ``Udhavum Karangal`` (tamil words that mean ``helping hands``) that picks up discarded babies literally from trash and give them a home. I send money to such organisations. But the task is so gigantic that nothing short of a people`s movement will help. In India, people should change their attitudes towards poor and help them whereever they see poverty. In this, much can be learnt from Christians and their philanthropy.
I agree that education for the deprived section is something that NGOs and government should work for. But such education should be skill-oriented, so that the poor can rightaway start earning thr` the newly acquired skills.
Are the people in chowk aware of any good NGOs?
I thank Mr Madani for his kind comments about me. I try to be good but i am not always successful. The demons in me sometimes get the better of me!
Sridhar
#39 Posted by rsridhar on July 10, 2003 8:59:56 am
re: ``a fistful of rice``
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=312959
Sridhar
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=312959
Sridhar
#38 Posted by dost_mittar on July 7, 2003 7:25:31 am
hamid_81
You have depicted a horrible truth about the subcontinent`s inhuman treatment of the weakest members of the society, poor and helpless children. The article oozes with feelings for its subjects and reminded me of Rohinton Mistry`s `A Fine Balance` about the plight of beggars in Bombay.
Ahmad Madani:
As usual you have made some very astute observations. The demographic bomb is ticking, especially in Pakistan. Family planning has begun to show results in India, at least in some provinces like Kerala and Tamil Nadu where they have achieved the same birth rates as developed countries, so the other states have a model they can emulate. Bangladesh has made astonishing progress in the last decade or so and its population growth has come down almost to the same level as that of India. But Pakistan has been sadly lagging in this area, despite some signs of a little progress in recent years.
And you are ABSOLUTELY right about the water problem. If the countries of the subcontinent do not cooperate and coordinate some long term planning on a war-footing to solve this urgent issue, they will have a real war between them and it will be on a real issue of quenching dry throats and not of the dumb issue of whether muslim kashmiris` desire to leave the kafir-land is legitimate or not. India wants to be counted as a world power and have a seat on the security council but it cannot provide drinking water to even the posh colonies of its capital who have to be sent water tankers to supply water to its elites.
...however, the problem highlighted by hamid mahmood is not going to go away even after the population stabilises, unless we south asians change our attitudes to our most precious assets, our children and our future.
jay:
The Canadian International Development Agency (CIDA) is interested in finding out why the suicide rate among keralites, especially its youth, is so much higher than in the rest of India. Is it because of high unemployment, high migration to Gulf countries, or some other reasons? I certainly hope it is not because of higher literacry rate.
You have depicted a horrible truth about the subcontinent`s inhuman treatment of the weakest members of the society, poor and helpless children. The article oozes with feelings for its subjects and reminded me of Rohinton Mistry`s `A Fine Balance` about the plight of beggars in Bombay.
Ahmad Madani:
As usual you have made some very astute observations. The demographic bomb is ticking, especially in Pakistan. Family planning has begun to show results in India, at least in some provinces like Kerala and Tamil Nadu where they have achieved the same birth rates as developed countries, so the other states have a model they can emulate. Bangladesh has made astonishing progress in the last decade or so and its population growth has come down almost to the same level as that of India. But Pakistan has been sadly lagging in this area, despite some signs of a little progress in recent years.
And you are ABSOLUTELY right about the water problem. If the countries of the subcontinent do not cooperate and coordinate some long term planning on a war-footing to solve this urgent issue, they will have a real war between them and it will be on a real issue of quenching dry throats and not of the dumb issue of whether muslim kashmiris` desire to leave the kafir-land is legitimate or not. India wants to be counted as a world power and have a seat on the security council but it cannot provide drinking water to even the posh colonies of its capital who have to be sent water tankers to supply water to its elites.
...however, the problem highlighted by hamid mahmood is not going to go away even after the population stabilises, unless we south asians change our attitudes to our most precious assets, our children and our future.
jay:
The Canadian International Development Agency (CIDA) is interested in finding out why the suicide rate among keralites, especially its youth, is so much higher than in the rest of India. Is it because of high unemployment, high migration to Gulf countries, or some other reasons? I certainly hope it is not because of higher literacry rate.
#37 Posted by hamid_81 on July 6, 2003 8:10:52 pm
Shukriya nasah! I like the term ``ancient barbarians``. Actually I hate the term ``culture`` when it is used in regards to pakistani culture. We have a tendency to hide all our faults behind the term ``culture``.
Hamid
Hamid
#36 Posted by nasah on July 6, 2003 7:49:52 pm
more poignant than Salam Bombay -- hamid miaN --
we subcontinental -- in fact -- we from third world countries -- are child abusers par excellence -- it`s in our gennes -- for us it is the norm -- does not bother us one bit -- we have 7 year olds working as house servants in millions of households -- all over India and Pakistan -- besides swarms of these kids begging in the streets.
we employ 7 years olds as house servants and don`t even bat our eyes -- CHILD LABOR and EXPLOITATION of CHILDREN -- are the curse of our so called civilized ancient culture --
some culture -- and some ancient -- more like ancient barbarians....
great piece very well put --
we subcontinental -- in fact -- we from third world countries -- are child abusers par excellence -- it`s in our gennes -- for us it is the norm -- does not bother us one bit -- we have 7 year olds working as house servants in millions of households -- all over India and Pakistan -- besides swarms of these kids begging in the streets.
we employ 7 years olds as house servants and don`t even bat our eyes -- CHILD LABOR and EXPLOITATION of CHILDREN -- are the curse of our so called civilized ancient culture --
some culture -- and some ancient -- more like ancient barbarians....
great piece very well put --
#35 Posted by ahmedmadani on July 6, 2003 1:06:25 pm
Hamid Mhmood....... Very good article. It made me think about problems. For years after thinking I arrive at same solution. That is control population. As I said about our neighbourhood big country 2.3% landmass with 17% world population, 30 million births how this can go on and how far. Same way with pakistan. Our land ratio to people is more but factors taken into account. Like B.Stan is largest area but totally uselss land except for its gas and minerals. B.Stan, major part of sindh desert on both sides( common border with india ) so actually useful land ratio is smaller even for pakistan though much bigger than India.
In 1947 we had 2700 Cu. Meter per head water, now it has come down to 600Cu.M. ( I am not tech person, but read in news paper). By all calculations we will be atleast 300 or 350 take any figure for discussion. so that water comes down to some 300 Cu. M. Most modern living needs atleast 1100 cuM they say.
Presently 96% of water is used for agriculture. Major 65 % population is under 25 years so very high fertility. Its honestly problem with muslim countries as per united nations chart it shows areas in red having people increse rates in % from 3 to 4%. ( Red for danger ecologically?) Saudi arabia rate is near 4%, you can realiaze why saudi prosperity and income has become 25% compared to in 70s. Un chart gives little thumb rule to see in how many years population will double. You take 72 and divide that by growth rate. So in case of ours 72/3=24 years. So in 2026 we will have 300 millions. This huge people need food fiber and water. Only south is useful land. Get from my common sense then war becomes inevitable. If you read newspaper General says nothing to compromise. All this talk is nonsense from bothside. Peripherial issues can be settled by talk but major indo pak issues if (assuming) present line ( weather direct mily control or puppet appointed PM by army) is continued by both sides can only be settled by steel and blood. Water will be thing on which indopak wars will start.
Now people can move mountains and change watercourses. And people who get advantage do not care for any other. Water is too precious to be given. Its not india pakistan. Its indians state govts fighting other state for water rights. OVER YEARS INDIANS WILL DIVERT WATER OF SUBRIVERS OF SINDHU AND LETTER WILL START WORKING ON SINDHU ITSELF. INDIANS DO NOT CARE ITS MUTUAL.If punjabis do not care for sindh wrong to accept indians keeping promises.
Why sindh is mentally at war with Punjab only due to water. Its population of Punjab and sindh need water. Karachi and sindh eternally thirsty. Its shear numbers. I have heard greedy engineers, contractors getting happy over thoughts of contracts of Kalabaugh, thal canal( most nonsindhis do not understand fear and anguish in interior sindh also about this canal, just as Bengali sentiments were ignored by army rules, army is playing with fire, sindhis say they took our karachi, hyderbad,sukkar now they are taking even bit of water) etc. But there is no that much water left. Now ravi is sewer as india diverted all water. Little comes via bias soon it will be history. I travell in connection with selling medicines in interior sindh. Any body can go south of Kotri Barrage, see what is Sindhu or indus called. Its dirty nonflowing water. Water did not disappear just used by sindhis, Punjabis. Just shear number , they have to survive.
Presently we are marginal in wheat, no way we can produce enough for 300 million in 24 years is the point.
Unfortunately If all military dictectors from A to Z ( Ayub to zia to present sofisticated verson) it only one child family dictetorship people would have put gold statues as it would be so good. Say 60 million population. One can almost jump. I remember Karachi in 60s so nice. I am religious enough to know the book. Yes it says more you produce more happy will be. But all books had time. Ad all books regarding religion just fade and become relic of old gone by golden(assuming) times.And time is not merciful to obstinates it just corrodes foundation from base. No advanced country dis honors book but just keep them in place in home and in librabries and do as they feel good.
As writer said present situation is bad but with population at 300 milion will be worse.
Many porblems will solve automatically and all conflits will be cooler with lesser population.
And without Family planning no allah or Ishvar or Buddha can do nothing. Rich nations will start getting helping fatigue and poor overpopulated contries will literally sink by drawned in their overpopulations. One of bad things I feel sad for those wild beautiful gods creatures will be squeezed and vanished. I never go to ZOO , when I look at poor caged animals wonder why we torture them keeping confined, I can not bear looking at lion bored hurting themselves. If India and pakistan both start really reducing population,( one child policy and 25 and 30 marriage age limit really reduces population. I feel family planning inventions can be more dramatic than invention of fire now to make life happy. I do not buy idea of gods gift theroy about children). Let us hope this tide of numbers will compell people for preventive measyures.If any pakistani wants to have united Pakistan then family planning can keep it united. Extreme large number of people can lead to farticide, revolutuions( all revolutions are bogus and cruel in long term, not much changes). violence, tension in provinces. I think at 350 to 400 million people centrfugal forces from minority provinces will be too great and even pulling gravity of common religion and idea of Muslim ummah and army rule will not be able to overcome greater ethinic disintegrating forces leading to fragmenting picture.
If population is not controled India and pakistan will never become happy places for average family.
In 1947 we had 2700 Cu. Meter per head water, now it has come down to 600Cu.M. ( I am not tech person, but read in news paper). By all calculations we will be atleast 300 or 350 take any figure for discussion. so that water comes down to some 300 Cu. M. Most modern living needs atleast 1100 cuM they say.
Presently 96% of water is used for agriculture. Major 65 % population is under 25 years so very high fertility. Its honestly problem with muslim countries as per united nations chart it shows areas in red having people increse rates in % from 3 to 4%. ( Red for danger ecologically?) Saudi arabia rate is near 4%, you can realiaze why saudi prosperity and income has become 25% compared to in 70s. Un chart gives little thumb rule to see in how many years population will double. You take 72 and divide that by growth rate. So in case of ours 72/3=24 years. So in 2026 we will have 300 millions. This huge people need food fiber and water. Only south is useful land. Get from my common sense then war becomes inevitable. If you read newspaper General says nothing to compromise. All this talk is nonsense from bothside. Peripherial issues can be settled by talk but major indo pak issues if (assuming) present line ( weather direct mily control or puppet appointed PM by army) is continued by both sides can only be settled by steel and blood. Water will be thing on which indopak wars will start.
Now people can move mountains and change watercourses. And people who get advantage do not care for any other. Water is too precious to be given. Its not india pakistan. Its indians state govts fighting other state for water rights. OVER YEARS INDIANS WILL DIVERT WATER OF SUBRIVERS OF SINDHU AND LETTER WILL START WORKING ON SINDHU ITSELF. INDIANS DO NOT CARE ITS MUTUAL.If punjabis do not care for sindh wrong to accept indians keeping promises.
Why sindh is mentally at war with Punjab only due to water. Its population of Punjab and sindh need water. Karachi and sindh eternally thirsty. Its shear numbers. I have heard greedy engineers, contractors getting happy over thoughts of contracts of Kalabaugh, thal canal( most nonsindhis do not understand fear and anguish in interior sindh also about this canal, just as Bengali sentiments were ignored by army rules, army is playing with fire, sindhis say they took our karachi, hyderbad,sukkar now they are taking even bit of water) etc. But there is no that much water left. Now ravi is sewer as india diverted all water. Little comes via bias soon it will be history. I travell in connection with selling medicines in interior sindh. Any body can go south of Kotri Barrage, see what is Sindhu or indus called. Its dirty nonflowing water. Water did not disappear just used by sindhis, Punjabis. Just shear number , they have to survive.
Presently we are marginal in wheat, no way we can produce enough for 300 million in 24 years is the point.
Unfortunately If all military dictectors from A to Z ( Ayub to zia to present sofisticated verson) it only one child family dictetorship people would have put gold statues as it would be so good. Say 60 million population. One can almost jump. I remember Karachi in 60s so nice. I am religious enough to know the book. Yes it says more you produce more happy will be. But all books had time. Ad all books regarding religion just fade and become relic of old gone by golden(assuming) times.And time is not merciful to obstinates it just corrodes foundation from base. No advanced country dis honors book but just keep them in place in home and in librabries and do as they feel good.
As writer said present situation is bad but with population at 300 milion will be worse.
Many porblems will solve automatically and all conflits will be cooler with lesser population.
And without Family planning no allah or Ishvar or Buddha can do nothing. Rich nations will start getting helping fatigue and poor overpopulated contries will literally sink by drawned in their overpopulations. One of bad things I feel sad for those wild beautiful gods creatures will be squeezed and vanished. I never go to ZOO , when I look at poor caged animals wonder why we torture them keeping confined, I can not bear looking at lion bored hurting themselves. If India and pakistan both start really reducing population,( one child policy and 25 and 30 marriage age limit really reduces population. I feel family planning inventions can be more dramatic than invention of fire now to make life happy. I do not buy idea of gods gift theroy about children). Let us hope this tide of numbers will compell people for preventive measyures.If any pakistani wants to have united Pakistan then family planning can keep it united. Extreme large number of people can lead to farticide, revolutuions( all revolutions are bogus and cruel in long term, not much changes). violence, tension in provinces. I think at 350 to 400 million people centrfugal forces from minority provinces will be too great and even pulling gravity of common religion and idea of Muslim ummah and army rule will not be able to overcome greater ethinic disintegrating forces leading to fragmenting picture.
If population is not controled India and pakistan will never become happy places for average family.
#34 Posted by temporal on July 6, 2003 1:06:25 pm
harimau #32:
And how exactly do you propose to ``teach fishing`` to these people? Or is that also somebody else`s job?
...by donating to local charities and ngos that impart education...and in that sense, yes...it is the job of `somebody else`...ain`t it?
...t
And how exactly do you propose to ``teach fishing`` to these people? Or is that also somebody else`s job?
...by donating to local charities and ngos that impart education...and in that sense, yes...it is the job of `somebody else`...ain`t it?
...t
#33 Posted by ahmedmadani on July 6, 2003 1:06:25 pm
response #32
That saying is from christian - new testament. Jesus of nazareth advices this deciples towards poor. He wants to help poor by selfhelp and teaching.
If i am correct saying is some thing like `` do not pity the poor but help them and teach to catch fish so they can help themselves. You can give hungry man a fish and he will be fed that day, teach him to catch fish he will be fed for ever``.
I personally give alms some times to poor people. I do not give money to Fakirs and pirs etc, they have sexual carnal things in minds and afraid of them for children.(most are just ok, parasites) I know its wrong as it encourages problem. As it does not go to source of problem.I will give real experience. In 80s arab guests at our hotel some times use to give alms to poor when they ventured outside for walk. Some times out of kindness they will take bills of 4oo rs and take our hotel boy and to to street corner and just give i rs to each who took. Then when people noted it poor middle class people will walk and tale and walk away. This started creating problems and we brought to notice of these kind hearted people the mess created. They agreed and started giving money to proper NGo,s.
That saying is from christian - new testament. Jesus of nazareth advices this deciples towards poor. He wants to help poor by selfhelp and teaching.
If i am correct saying is some thing like `` do not pity the poor but help them and teach to catch fish so they can help themselves. You can give hungry man a fish and he will be fed that day, teach him to catch fish he will be fed for ever``.
I personally give alms some times to poor people. I do not give money to Fakirs and pirs etc, they have sexual carnal things in minds and afraid of them for children.(most are just ok, parasites) I know its wrong as it encourages problem. As it does not go to source of problem.I will give real experience. In 80s arab guests at our hotel some times use to give alms to poor when they ventured outside for walk. Some times out of kindness they will take bills of 4oo rs and take our hotel boy and to to street corner and just give i rs to each who took. Then when people noted it poor middle class people will walk and tale and walk away. This started creating problems and we brought to notice of these kind hearted people the mess created. They agreed and started giving money to proper NGo,s.
#32 Posted by harimau on July 6, 2003 8:09:00 am
Ref ahmedmadani #21
[Harimao, Ram Saxena, Jay are people with hatred they never said i wrote good as for them how a person from karachi be good only good from India.]
Dear Mr. Madani,
I don`t think I have ever commented one way or another about your writings though I have always enjoyed them tremendously.
I did go to your resume as you suggested and I get the feeling that you are a normal man-in-the-street not different from someone in Bombay, Delhi, or for that matter, Beijing, New York or Moscow. Your straightforward manner and concerns about your family have affected me deeply. I have rated you 5 starts.
PS. I attempted to post this a couple of days back but there was something wrong with Chowk`s buttons.
[Harimao, Ram Saxena, Jay are people with hatred they never said i wrote good as for them how a person from karachi be good only good from India.]
Dear Mr. Madani,
I don`t think I have ever commented one way or another about your writings though I have always enjoyed them tremendously.
I did go to your resume as you suggested and I get the feeling that you are a normal man-in-the-street not different from someone in Bombay, Delhi, or for that matter, Beijing, New York or Moscow. Your straightforward manner and concerns about your family have affected me deeply. I have rated you 5 starts.
PS. I attempted to post this a couple of days back but there was something wrong with Chowk`s buttons.
#31 Posted by harimau on July 6, 2003 8:09:00 am
Ref temporal #15
[when traveling/visiting the sub continent i never offer money to any beggar or alms for that matter...partially based on selfish motives (give to one and a hundred come out of woodworks to gherao you) and partly based on other motives...what was that chinese saying?...feeding fish to hungry will ward off hunger for a day, teaching them to fish will ward off hunger for ever?....]
I always do. It is a simple accident of birth that I was born into a family that could afford a home and three square meals a day. I could easily have been born to a poor beggar, or worse, sink into penury despite my education, job, etc.
And how exactly do you propose to ``teach fishing`` to these people? Or is that also somebody else`s job?
[when traveling/visiting the sub continent i never offer money to any beggar or alms for that matter...partially based on selfish motives (give to one and a hundred come out of woodworks to gherao you) and partly based on other motives...what was that chinese saying?...feeding fish to hungry will ward off hunger for a day, teaching them to fish will ward off hunger for ever?....]
I always do. It is a simple accident of birth that I was born into a family that could afford a home and three square meals a day. I could easily have been born to a poor beggar, or worse, sink into penury despite my education, job, etc.
And how exactly do you propose to ``teach fishing`` to these people? Or is that also somebody else`s job?
#30 Posted by hamid_81 on July 6, 2003 12:11:00 am
#27 by aaria
Thank You aaria! I am happy to see that my writing is having an effect on my readers.
I don`t think that population control is the only solution to this problem. I remmeber watching a movie; Omar Mukhtar :Lion of the Desert. I was very young at that time. But I still remmember the part in which Anthony Quinn sits for the first time to have a dialouge with the commanding forces and says that one the things that they require is education for their chidlren. I think it is all about educating people. Not making them speak English in english mediun schools, but educating them enough, so they can make proper choices. And it is not hard to do this. All you need is a little effort. But oh! I just forgot. Pakistan is not a free country. It is a country full of filthy criminals. Like the shariffs, bhuttos and the Baloch sardars! How can these people even think of having THEIR people be more educated than them?!!! They are the ones who are involved in child-trade with the Arabs! I remmember MR. Khar came to power and made use of almost all the girls in his village. He fought the next election said sorry to his people in a speech in his village, and again won! Why? Because his people live under his rule! Even if they know what the right choice is they cannot make it because they will have to pay for it through their life. Here is my soultion: Get rid of Feudalism and Fedual Lords. I donot need any Pir`s, Zamindar`s or Khan`s in my Pakistan. But I do want the normal children, the normal man and the simple farmers to live happily under no pressure and have the right to make the correct choices in life. Without these criminals, Pakistan would be MUCH MUCH better place!
Thank You aaria! I am happy to see that my writing is having an effect on my readers.
I don`t think that population control is the only solution to this problem. I remmeber watching a movie; Omar Mukhtar :Lion of the Desert. I was very young at that time. But I still remmember the part in which Anthony Quinn sits for the first time to have a dialouge with the commanding forces and says that one the things that they require is education for their chidlren. I think it is all about educating people. Not making them speak English in english mediun schools, but educating them enough, so they can make proper choices. And it is not hard to do this. All you need is a little effort. But oh! I just forgot. Pakistan is not a free country. It is a country full of filthy criminals. Like the shariffs, bhuttos and the Baloch sardars! How can these people even think of having THEIR people be more educated than them?!!! They are the ones who are involved in child-trade with the Arabs! I remmember MR. Khar came to power and made use of almost all the girls in his village. He fought the next election said sorry to his people in a speech in his village, and again won! Why? Because his people live under his rule! Even if they know what the right choice is they cannot make it because they will have to pay for it through their life. Here is my soultion: Get rid of Feudalism and Fedual Lords. I donot need any Pir`s, Zamindar`s or Khan`s in my Pakistan. But I do want the normal children, the normal man and the simple farmers to live happily under no pressure and have the right to make the correct choices in life. Without these criminals, Pakistan would be MUCH MUCH better place!
#29 Posted by jay on July 5, 2003 10:07:05 pm
Ahmadmadani,
I come from kerala in india where the population growth is less than 1.8 I guess, where the primary schools are closing due to lack of students. The suicide rate is high, comparable to japan, life expectancy is more than that in the US, around that of swedan. Muslims in general have more children, but it is far less than that in pakistan. They have found that population growth is linked to education, where the parents feel responsibility to bring up the children, and have knowledge and intelectual ability to control birth.
In pakistan, it is going the opposite way, more beggers in the streets, implying that the children are fending for themselves, parents have no responsibility. The bombs and jihadic killings and lack of medical facilities increse uncertaintity. There is a theory of demography. Initially the population expoldes as the death trate decreases rapidly due to improved medical facilities, especially due to reduction in deaths due to contageous deceases. This increases life expectancy and population growth. Then comes the next slower pace when the birth rate decilenes.
Since pakistan is on a path of decline, one can expect the population to stabilise shortly, due to increasing death rates. Polluted water in karachi is a great help, so are jihadists, at least 50 have been knocked off yestaerday. A combination of jihadic activities and decling public helath and spread of contageous dceases could help pakistan. Have some hope. You will find that this approach is more economical and pakistan can esily afford.
I come from kerala in india where the population growth is less than 1.8 I guess, where the primary schools are closing due to lack of students. The suicide rate is high, comparable to japan, life expectancy is more than that in the US, around that of swedan. Muslims in general have more children, but it is far less than that in pakistan. They have found that population growth is linked to education, where the parents feel responsibility to bring up the children, and have knowledge and intelectual ability to control birth.
In pakistan, it is going the opposite way, more beggers in the streets, implying that the children are fending for themselves, parents have no responsibility. The bombs and jihadic killings and lack of medical facilities increse uncertaintity. There is a theory of demography. Initially the population expoldes as the death trate decreases rapidly due to improved medical facilities, especially due to reduction in deaths due to contageous deceases. This increases life expectancy and population growth. Then comes the next slower pace when the birth rate decilenes.
Since pakistan is on a path of decline, one can expect the population to stabilise shortly, due to increasing death rates. Polluted water in karachi is a great help, so are jihadists, at least 50 have been knocked off yestaerday. A combination of jihadic activities and decling public helath and spread of contageous dceases could help pakistan. Have some hope. You will find that this approach is more economical and pakistan can esily afford.
#28 Posted by aaria on July 5, 2003 7:26:06 pm
Hamid,
Very well written. I had tears in my eyes while reading this which proves that it was good writing. Writing after all is an art form used to persuade or pursue. A job well done.
I know those children in the alleys of Liberty and in the gallis off of GT Road. I know the Pathan and Punjabi children with those eyes. You wil never forget those eyes.
Thanks for reminding us to remain humble. And to remember the less fortunate.
Thank You.
Very well written. I had tears in my eyes while reading this which proves that it was good writing. Writing after all is an art form used to persuade or pursue. A job well done.
I know those children in the alleys of Liberty and in the gallis off of GT Road. I know the Pathan and Punjabi children with those eyes. You wil never forget those eyes.
Thanks for reminding us to remain humble. And to remember the less fortunate.
Thank You.
#27 Posted by septran on July 5, 2003 7:26:06 pm
hamid,
I appreciate your views about family planning.delveloped countries have over come it.But we lack behind,i think it``s illiterace.people are so naive they go on producing kids,even they havefamily history of deaf and dumb,crippled and mentelly retarded.i am associated with deaf and dumb school,i feel so sad for those kids.i know a such family having 7 kids of the same fate.Now who can teach them.they rarely understand the point.
I appreciate your views about family planning.delveloped countries have over come it.But we lack behind,i think it``s illiterace.people are so naive they go on producing kids,even they havefamily history of deaf and dumb,crippled and mentelly retarded.i am associated with deaf and dumb school,i feel so sad for those kids.i know a such family having 7 kids of the same fate.Now who can teach them.they rarely understand the point.
#26 Posted by ahmedmadani on July 5, 2003 7:24:05 am
Mr. Jay.... thank you sir for comment. I like people comment on my comment. One day I want to write article full 4 to 5 pages long on chowk. But I have no topic in mind at this time. I am kind of depressed due to this bad people killing good people in B.stan. qUETTA.
I am muslim but practical type not crazy like RSS type muslim or mental nut. I am religious type but NOT fanatic nut, mderate liberal democracywallah. I feel man should control procreation for others. Its men and womens fault just addicted to producing carbon copies for posterity.
i THINK india also crazy producing babies. With 2.3% of land mass and 17% world population is not easy but still go on cranking 30 million babies per year is record I think your country are also obssessed with baby production.
there is darkside sir to this as more totally economically challenged people produce more babies and this poor malnourished babies produce even babies with vengence and cycles repeat. I think its survival of fittest more you produce more chances you will have revange on your rich friends. My observation is poor people grow geometrically and mid and rich nice people no arithmatically.
I have a stupid assistant and he has unique problem. This miserable person has three pregnancies at hand. His wife is expecting another baby and he is becoming Grandpapa .Getting a grand children from both daughters. Is it not grand sceme of things- that Uncle will be younger than nephews? The man lives in Malir. Now his children can never get sick as if you survive along malir river( garbage drain) even heavely powers can not hurt you. While person like me drinking bottled water will become sick.Its all lafangebazi.
Every new born hindu is burden on india just as every new born muslim in Pak. is burden on Pakistan. Mr. Jay you are all right now but you are fanatic type nut and you know it for sure. I do not like Harimau, R.Sexana, Pmisra, M.Arjun( he paste copy specialist). I hope all above people become secular and liberal and happy. Anyway good luck. Thank you mr. Jay for writing and appreciating. You are welcome for good remark on me.
I am muslim but practical type not crazy like RSS type muslim or mental nut. I am religious type but NOT fanatic nut, mderate liberal democracywallah. I feel man should control procreation for others. Its men and womens fault just addicted to producing carbon copies for posterity.
i THINK india also crazy producing babies. With 2.3% of land mass and 17% world population is not easy but still go on cranking 30 million babies per year is record I think your country are also obssessed with baby production.
there is darkside sir to this as more totally economically challenged people produce more babies and this poor malnourished babies produce even babies with vengence and cycles repeat. I think its survival of fittest more you produce more chances you will have revange on your rich friends. My observation is poor people grow geometrically and mid and rich nice people no arithmatically.
I have a stupid assistant and he has unique problem. This miserable person has three pregnancies at hand. His wife is expecting another baby and he is becoming Grandpapa .Getting a grand children from both daughters. Is it not grand sceme of things- that Uncle will be younger than nephews? The man lives in Malir. Now his children can never get sick as if you survive along malir river( garbage drain) even heavely powers can not hurt you. While person like me drinking bottled water will become sick.Its all lafangebazi.
Every new born hindu is burden on india just as every new born muslim in Pak. is burden on Pakistan. Mr. Jay you are all right now but you are fanatic type nut and you know it for sure. I do not like Harimau, R.Sexana, Pmisra, M.Arjun( he paste copy specialist). I hope all above people become secular and liberal and happy. Anyway good luck. Thank you mr. Jay for writing and appreciating. You are welcome for good remark on me.
#25 Posted by jay on July 4, 2003 9:58:04 pm
Ahmadmadani 21,
I am sorry that I did not post this earlier. You are the most honest pakistani on chowk, always hits the nail on its head, and never misses. Your diagnosis of the pak problem is spot on, less children, no polygamy. But ahmad husoor, what happens to the book, you have to live by it, even if you are in hotel business.
I am sorry that I did not post this earlier. You are the most honest pakistani on chowk, always hits the nail on its head, and never misses. Your diagnosis of the pak problem is spot on, less children, no polygamy. But ahmad husoor, what happens to the book, you have to live by it, even if you are in hotel business.
#23 Posted by hamid_81 on July 4, 2003 8:20:28 pm
It is great to see so many people coming up with al ine of action after reading this article.
Shukriya Dard Sahib! Again the reason I wrote this article was NOT to describe a problem and then suggest a line of action. I wanted my readers to come up with their own line of actions, and I can see that alot of you have. It gives me great pleasure to see that I am slowly achieving my goal!
Shukriya Dard Sahib! Again the reason I wrote this article was NOT to describe a problem and then suggest a line of action. I wanted my readers to come up with their own line of actions, and I can see that alot of you have. It gives me great pleasure to see that I am slowly achieving my goal!
#22 Posted by m_souza on July 3, 2003 10:27:19 pm
This story account is and horrifyingly sad ....just atrocious
And you still claim that you are the descendents of the Arabs....
And you still claim that you are the descendents of the Arabs....
#21 Posted by ahmedmadani on July 3, 2003 9:09:05 pm
The root cause of all misery in Pakistan is too many children. In next 20 years it will 350 million they say.
Only thing that can save now is total control of family planning> FOLLOW OUR BEST FRIEND AND BOSS CHINA> ONLY ONE CHILD < NO MORE NO LESS. NO MARRIAGE BEFORE YOU ARE 25 FOR GIRLS AND #30 for boys. IF second baby is there in making abort it. ITs more human. Its human for animals also. OLd times people use to die in wars, familne, disease etc. Also no fertility drugs to overproduce. Stop polygomy its just not for this century.
IF general say you CAN not GET ELECTED if not BA. Make condition you can not have baby unless both are BA.POLITICS ALL YOU NEED IS DEAD BRAIN ALIVE BODY, LOOK AT PM. BUT RSISING CHILD IS NOT JOKE.
Everybody should have right of sex entertainment in private , but child onlly after you are qualified and certified as general Sahib did.
I have kindness in heart I give alms to beggers but that is not solution.
I think studbaker is not good man as he attacked and insulted all people in hotel and hospitality business in INDIa and pakistan.
I work IN KHI ( KARACHI ) not lahore ok.
Dost mitter is kind hindu. He said I write good thank sir. Its specially appreciated as he is living in America and is in computers and IT field( I am not worried about no nothing people crtic me) and has no hatred or pregudice etc like me. I think people should lean to appreciate intelligent and maening ful writing. I think Shridhar is also good, tahmed ,haMID also good. Harimao, Ram Saxena, Jay are people with hatred they never said i wrote good as for them how a person from karachi be good only good from India.
Mr. Dost mitter I have filled THAT MY RESUME. i REQUEST ALL TO GO AND READ IT. tHANK YOU VERY MUCH EVERY BODY. i AM FOR SENSORSHIP TO SOME DEGREE as many people and not cultured and low mentality and have propensity to abuse as they were are abused by pareants and children and wifes. We can not select relatives. I am for peace and let economy. I hope india comes to sense and jon TAP and iran India gas line. I think wajpai is not bad man. I worry if some person like turkish govt comes in India and start playing with water and diverting it can be killing of pakistan. tHEN SINDH AND pUNJAB WILL FIGHT OVER LITTLE WATER LEADING TO TROUBLES. iT CAN HAPPEN IN FUTURE IF THIS HATRED NOT STOPPED. tURKEY BUILT dams IN upper tiger and Euphetris river and killed prosperity of IRAQ and Syriya , though both are muslim countries part of Muslim Ummah. And world said nothing.
Any way please stop producing children. WE paki Men have problem. We feel as if we are namard if we do not squeeze 6 children out of poor woman.
STOP this litter of people. OR its water torture slow death. Please see my resume. Thank you every body and good wishes for every body. Let us hope we get good rains all over pakistan and india and water misery and power misery goes away. good luck
Only thing that can save now is total control of family planning> FOLLOW OUR BEST FRIEND AND BOSS CHINA> ONLY ONE CHILD < NO MORE NO LESS. NO MARRIAGE BEFORE YOU ARE 25 FOR GIRLS AND #30 for boys. IF second baby is there in making abort it. ITs more human. Its human for animals also. OLd times people use to die in wars, familne, disease etc. Also no fertility drugs to overproduce. Stop polygomy its just not for this century.
IF general say you CAN not GET ELECTED if not BA. Make condition you can not have baby unless both are BA.POLITICS ALL YOU NEED IS DEAD BRAIN ALIVE BODY, LOOK AT PM. BUT RSISING CHILD IS NOT JOKE.
Everybody should have right of sex entertainment in private , but child onlly after you are qualified and certified as general Sahib did.
I have kindness in heart I give alms to beggers but that is not solution.
I think studbaker is not good man as he attacked and insulted all people in hotel and hospitality business in INDIa and pakistan.
I work IN KHI ( KARACHI ) not lahore ok.
Dost mitter is kind hindu. He said I write good thank sir. Its specially appreciated as he is living in America and is in computers and IT field( I am not worried about no nothing people crtic me) and has no hatred or pregudice etc like me. I think people should lean to appreciate intelligent and maening ful writing. I think Shridhar is also good, tahmed ,haMID also good. Harimao, Ram Saxena, Jay are people with hatred they never said i wrote good as for them how a person from karachi be good only good from India.
Mr. Dost mitter I have filled THAT MY RESUME. i REQUEST ALL TO GO AND READ IT. tHANK YOU VERY MUCH EVERY BODY. i AM FOR SENSORSHIP TO SOME DEGREE as many people and not cultured and low mentality and have propensity to abuse as they were are abused by pareants and children and wifes. We can not select relatives. I am for peace and let economy. I hope india comes to sense and jon TAP and iran India gas line. I think wajpai is not bad man. I worry if some person like turkish govt comes in India and start playing with water and diverting it can be killing of pakistan. tHEN SINDH AND pUNJAB WILL FIGHT OVER LITTLE WATER LEADING TO TROUBLES. iT CAN HAPPEN IN FUTURE IF THIS HATRED NOT STOPPED. tURKEY BUILT dams IN upper tiger and Euphetris river and killed prosperity of IRAQ and Syriya , though both are muslim countries part of Muslim Ummah. And world said nothing.
Any way please stop producing children. WE paki Men have problem. We feel as if we are namard if we do not squeeze 6 children out of poor woman.
STOP this litter of people. OR its water torture slow death. Please see my resume. Thank you every body and good wishes for every body. Let us hope we get good rains all over pakistan and india and water misery and power misery goes away. good luck
#20 Posted by septran on July 3, 2003 9:00:06 pm
#14 Hariman,
We will find a way to just one candle``
I appreciate ur spirit.in fact every individual can contribute in reforming of society.My cousin
ENt specialist,apart from his job is managing a school for deaf and dumb children.lot many ppl from over seas are donating for this noble cause.many of them brought hearing Aids for them.there are 50 children,expenditure for each is 1000RS.ppl are very help ful.all these children belongs to poor families,who can``t even afford two meals in aday.
I am known to a doctor in America,he has built a cardic centre in his home town.
we must share how little it may be,that is benefical for such ppl.
thanx for the patience to read me
We will find a way to just one candle``
I appreciate ur spirit.in fact every individual can contribute in reforming of society.My cousin
ENt specialist,apart from his job is managing a school for deaf and dumb children.lot many ppl from over seas are donating for this noble cause.many of them brought hearing Aids for them.there are 50 children,expenditure for each is 1000RS.ppl are very help ful.all these children belongs to poor families,who can``t even afford two meals in aday.
I am known to a doctor in America,he has built a cardic centre in his home town.
we must share how little it may be,that is benefical for such ppl.
thanx for the patience to read me
#19 Posted by UmerMurtaza on July 3, 2003 6:35:35 pm
PS. That`s 10-20 years, not 20-30 years.
Thank you
Umer M.
Thank you
Umer M.
#18 Posted by UmerMurtaza on July 3, 2003 6:35:35 pm
PPS. Another things that get`s on my goatee is when people say `we need more people like you`. What the flooda! Why aren`t you that person yourself? Since when did it become someone else`s job to do your dirty work?
Any how.
Umer M.
Any how.
Umer M.
#17 Posted by UmerMurtaza on July 3, 2003 4:53:51 pm
t,
I know, I know, (shows his plams) I came out a little wrong.
Immediately after posting what I had written, I wrote an apology note to Hamid but thought, for reasons unknown, to not put it through.
No offence to Hamid but I have an allergy with middle-aged people lamenting and self-flagellating. Either put up or shut up but for God`s sake, don’t start crying and sending laanut over each other. All this hai hai and beating one`s breast becomes a little boring after a while.
Universal issue? Backwaters of Pakistan? t, you insult my (limited) intelligence. But I can only talk of people I`m connected to. I only have (if God wills) 40-50 years of useful life before my battery power, along with my circuitry, goes down and I expire. That`s not long enough to start thinking of the Eskimos:)
I`m not blaming his generation for the ills of society but I will maintain that they didn’t do enough for their times. The newer populations of Muslims in various Muslim majority states are, in the next 20-30 years, going to be in the age range of 15-24. That`s pure grade, raw, revolutionary type of material: full of enthusiasm, full of faith, full of raw power, ready to take chances, ready to learn, not afraid of experiencing failure or taking knock backs. These sorts of qualities, in good hands, transform.
Please don’t be offended or take what I said personally. t, what I said was common sense. It`s no longer a question about paying your 2.5% or going to an orphanage to give little boys and girls Kit Kats (as this dumb person did on telly once. Just the sheer audacity of what he considered the idea of `help` to be. I could not help but say, `Is this what you think those fcukers need? Milk and cocoa?`).
The newer generations will have to do more and there`re no two ways about it. You just have to take on the responsibility. They will have to go out of their way to not only face the problems of their times but to correct the problems that should have been handled more effectively by the previous generations.
And this is why some of us are not being nice; we`re designing our whole lives around it. And maybe I`ve just been fortunate enough to speak to some of these types of people but I cannot help but think that their numbers are higher now than they ever were. And I`m not talking about the usual bring-shariah-back-whilst-I-boast-about-my-escapades types, and neither the glory seeker or the Mr and Mrs cliches types.
Then again, I`m sure you`ve also known these sorts of people in your early times…and in no way am I trying to say you’re a wise old man; wise and a man you may be but not old, no siree:)
I tell you what, give me a few years. Let me become a busy husband, a father and a house owner and if I can still give a $hit about others and do something, then I`ll consider my earlier statements valid. Everyone talks (I`m doing the same here- I believe there`s a word in Punjabi for it...`badak` is it?) but very few actually do something about it.
Best wishes,
Umer M.
I know, I know, (shows his plams) I came out a little wrong.
Immediately after posting what I had written, I wrote an apology note to Hamid but thought, for reasons unknown, to not put it through.
No offence to Hamid but I have an allergy with middle-aged people lamenting and self-flagellating. Either put up or shut up but for God`s sake, don’t start crying and sending laanut over each other. All this hai hai and beating one`s breast becomes a little boring after a while.
Universal issue? Backwaters of Pakistan? t, you insult my (limited) intelligence. But I can only talk of people I`m connected to. I only have (if God wills) 40-50 years of useful life before my battery power, along with my circuitry, goes down and I expire. That`s not long enough to start thinking of the Eskimos:)
I`m not blaming his generation for the ills of society but I will maintain that they didn’t do enough for their times. The newer populations of Muslims in various Muslim majority states are, in the next 20-30 years, going to be in the age range of 15-24. That`s pure grade, raw, revolutionary type of material: full of enthusiasm, full of faith, full of raw power, ready to take chances, ready to learn, not afraid of experiencing failure or taking knock backs. These sorts of qualities, in good hands, transform.
Please don’t be offended or take what I said personally. t, what I said was common sense. It`s no longer a question about paying your 2.5% or going to an orphanage to give little boys and girls Kit Kats (as this dumb person did on telly once. Just the sheer audacity of what he considered the idea of `help` to be. I could not help but say, `Is this what you think those fcukers need? Milk and cocoa?`).
The newer generations will have to do more and there`re no two ways about it. You just have to take on the responsibility. They will have to go out of their way to not only face the problems of their times but to correct the problems that should have been handled more effectively by the previous generations.
And this is why some of us are not being nice; we`re designing our whole lives around it. And maybe I`ve just been fortunate enough to speak to some of these types of people but I cannot help but think that their numbers are higher now than they ever were. And I`m not talking about the usual bring-shariah-back-whilst-I-boast-about-my-escapades types, and neither the glory seeker or the Mr and Mrs cliches types.
Then again, I`m sure you`ve also known these sorts of people in your early times…and in no way am I trying to say you’re a wise old man; wise and a man you may be but not old, no siree:)
I tell you what, give me a few years. Let me become a busy husband, a father and a house owner and if I can still give a $hit about others and do something, then I`ll consider my earlier statements valid. Everyone talks (I`m doing the same here- I believe there`s a word in Punjabi for it...`badak` is it?) but very few actually do something about it.
Best wishes,
Umer M.
#16 Posted by dard on July 3, 2003 4:53:51 pm
Dear Hamid,
Please, accept my sincere most admiration, appreciation and well wishes for portraying the agonies of our society in such a moving way.
As Iqbal says:
Kanta wo de ke jiss kee khatak la-zawal ho
Ya Rabb wo dard jiss kee kassak la-zawal ho
See, it’s “dard” what is needed, and tragically what is miserably missing in the land of pure. My personal opinion is that the prevailing compact indifference, the almost total lack of empathy, is probably the root cause of the umpteen miseries being faced by us in Pakistan.
“Ehsaas”, probably the only difference between human beings and wild beasts, yet so scarce in our country. Really heartening to observe that still there are people like you around.
Please, accept my sincere most admiration, appreciation and well wishes for portraying the agonies of our society in such a moving way.
As Iqbal says:
Kanta wo de ke jiss kee khatak la-zawal ho
Ya Rabb wo dard jiss kee kassak la-zawal ho
See, it’s “dard” what is needed, and tragically what is miserably missing in the land of pure. My personal opinion is that the prevailing compact indifference, the almost total lack of empathy, is probably the root cause of the umpteen miseries being faced by us in Pakistan.
“Ehsaas”, probably the only difference between human beings and wild beasts, yet so scarce in our country. Really heartening to observe that still there are people like you around.
#15 Posted by temporal on July 3, 2003 12:45:04 pm
Hamid-81:
...thank you for caring enough to interact with your readers...am serious and not being facetious...it is becoming oxymoronish...writers not inter-acting on an interactive medium!
umer:
bud...this is a universal issue...not confined to the backwaters of pakistan...it is nice that you do what you can...but you are wrong to blame it all on hamidm or his generation...
digression (what else!):
when traveling/visiting the sub continent i never offer money to any beggar or alms for that matter...partially based on selfish motives (give to one and a hundred come out of woodworks to gherao you) and partly based on other motives...what was that chinese saying?...feeding fish to hungry will ward off hunger for a day, teaching them to fish will ward off hunger for ever?....
…t
...thank you for caring enough to interact with your readers...am serious and not being facetious...it is becoming oxymoronish...writers not inter-acting on an interactive medium!
umer:
bud...this is a universal issue...not confined to the backwaters of pakistan...it is nice that you do what you can...but you are wrong to blame it all on hamidm or his generation...
digression (what else!):
when traveling/visiting the sub continent i never offer money to any beggar or alms for that matter...partially based on selfish motives (give to one and a hundred come out of woodworks to gherao you) and partly based on other motives...what was that chinese saying?...feeding fish to hungry will ward off hunger for a day, teaching them to fish will ward off hunger for ever?....
…t
#14 Posted by harimau on July 3, 2003 10:57:29 am
Don`t worry about the defence budget, don`t worry about the corrupt politicians.
Pledge to yourself that you will pay for the education of one child in Pakistan. Choose any charity such as World Vision, CARE, Christian Children`s Fund, Edhi Foundation, etc.
If each Pakistani abroad will educate one child in Pakistan, you can see a million more children in school there.
When I read about a housewife in Chennai who learnt how to make jams and preserves from the local Seventh Day Adventist Church and now runs a small business from her home selling home-made preserves and cordials, I am happy to see one more family raising itself up by its bootstraps.
Hamid Mahmood may have pointed out that is dark out there but he is not simply cursing the darkness. He is hoping that each one of us will find a way to light just one candle so that there may be some light in some lives at least because of our efforts.
Pledge to yourself that you will pay for the education of one child in Pakistan. Choose any charity such as World Vision, CARE, Christian Children`s Fund, Edhi Foundation, etc.
If each Pakistani abroad will educate one child in Pakistan, you can see a million more children in school there.
When I read about a housewife in Chennai who learnt how to make jams and preserves from the local Seventh Day Adventist Church and now runs a small business from her home selling home-made preserves and cordials, I am happy to see one more family raising itself up by its bootstraps.
Hamid Mahmood may have pointed out that is dark out there but he is not simply cursing the darkness. He is hoping that each one of us will find a way to light just one candle so that there may be some light in some lives at least because of our efforts.
#13 Posted by UmerMurtaza on July 3, 2003 10:08:55 am
No hamidm,
Don`t pass that shame onto me. I`ve been doing something, anything, since I was 19. You should shame the people of your age for doing nothing, for leaving this $hit for people of my generation to clear up. Shame on you, sir.
Umer M.
Don`t pass that shame onto me. I`ve been doing something, anything, since I was 19. You should shame the people of your age for doing nothing, for leaving this $hit for people of my generation to clear up. Shame on you, sir.
Umer M.
#12 Posted by hamid_81 on July 3, 2003 9:46:38 am
Thank You everyone for your comments!
#1 by Inquirer
To write about some issue and then suggest some sort of action is very easy. Help these children! If you are goving 5 Rupees give 10! But that was not my intention. My intention was to let my reader decide what action should he/she take? I wanted to make my reader aware that he/she shares this world with alot of THINGS. And one of those Things are these children.
#6 by soundmeister
Yes! You are very right. This is not hamidm. My name on chowk is hamid_81. And it might sound like a speech to fat goras with charity on thier mind, but trust me, it is this country where we can expect people to listen and provide us with charity to help these children. In Pakistan, the Sahib`s and the Begum`s are better off humiliating and beating these children.
Thank You Nazar Sahib, jay,aminarasool ,temporal , septran and aquaris.
#4 by sri on July 2, 2003 3:39pm PT
``As Inquirer said, where is the call for action ? ``
This article was not meant to have a call for action. The call for action should come from within you. Why do I need to give a call for action? I will be only the voice of these children. You have to decide to listen to it or ignore. Let me share with you why i decided to write this article. I was coming out of a big restaurant in Karachi, with a couple of friends, when a boy of about 5 or 6 came running to us with flowers in his hnads. He was wearing a torn Kurta Shalwar and was bare foot. He was grabbing the flowers like he was guarding something precious. He looked at me and smiled. Something about that smile just shattered me. I looked into his front pocket and asked,``How much did you make today?``
he replied, by looking into his pocket,``25 rupees, Sahib``. I took out whatever I had with me and gave it to him, and did not even ask him for a flower. He looked at me and said,``Sahib, I am not a beggar!`` I was so stunned, but quickly i took a couple of flowers from him, and he smiled, and happily ran away, literally crying with joy.
I am not sure what the call for action should be? Hmm, should it be that plzz do not give as much money as they ask you at your local Masjid to Palestine, and donate some of that to Pakistan? Or should it be that next time you pass a child of this sort instead of giving 5 rupees give 10? Or should it be that we need to work towards a Pakistan in which these children can have the oppurtunity to go to school, and strict laws should be enforced to stop child-trade, and the Hira-Mandi in Lahore and Napier Road in Karachi and all the other such places in the rest of the provinces should be completely shut down?
I don`t know. You as the reader decide.
#1 by Inquirer
To write about some issue and then suggest some sort of action is very easy. Help these children! If you are goving 5 Rupees give 10! But that was not my intention. My intention was to let my reader decide what action should he/she take? I wanted to make my reader aware that he/she shares this world with alot of THINGS. And one of those Things are these children.
#6 by soundmeister
Yes! You are very right. This is not hamidm. My name on chowk is hamid_81. And it might sound like a speech to fat goras with charity on thier mind, but trust me, it is this country where we can expect people to listen and provide us with charity to help these children. In Pakistan, the Sahib`s and the Begum`s are better off humiliating and beating these children.
Thank You Nazar Sahib, jay,aminarasool ,temporal , septran and aquaris.
#4 by sri on July 2, 2003 3:39pm PT
``As Inquirer said, where is the call for action ? ``
This article was not meant to have a call for action. The call for action should come from within you. Why do I need to give a call for action? I will be only the voice of these children. You have to decide to listen to it or ignore. Let me share with you why i decided to write this article. I was coming out of a big restaurant in Karachi, with a couple of friends, when a boy of about 5 or 6 came running to us with flowers in his hnads. He was wearing a torn Kurta Shalwar and was bare foot. He was grabbing the flowers like he was guarding something precious. He looked at me and smiled. Something about that smile just shattered me. I looked into his front pocket and asked,``How much did you make today?``
he replied, by looking into his pocket,``25 rupees, Sahib``. I took out whatever I had with me and gave it to him, and did not even ask him for a flower. He looked at me and said,``Sahib, I am not a beggar!`` I was so stunned, but quickly i took a couple of flowers from him, and he smiled, and happily ran away, literally crying with joy.
I am not sure what the call for action should be? Hmm, should it be that plzz do not give as much money as they ask you at your local Masjid to Palestine, and donate some of that to Pakistan? Or should it be that next time you pass a child of this sort instead of giving 5 rupees give 10? Or should it be that we need to work towards a Pakistan in which these children can have the oppurtunity to go to school, and strict laws should be enforced to stop child-trade, and the Hira-Mandi in Lahore and Napier Road in Karachi and all the other such places in the rest of the provinces should be completely shut down?
I don`t know. You as the reader decide.
#11 Posted by hamidm2 on July 3, 2003 9:46:38 am
........ this is the real tragedy of our people .......... while we quibble over kashmir, piree-muridee, web etiquettes, tnt and other such nonsense, the children go to bed hungry ............. so we throw them a few rupees, or buy them a hot meal but the problem is much much bigger and we are too busy worrying about ``bigger`` things ........... shame on us .............
#10 Posted by aquaris on July 3, 2003 8:33:15 am
you told a naked honest truth not only about our country....but about the whole world..
...Its not just in Pakistan..its every where this exploitation of poor....but Rich...and Influentials.....its every where........and has been going on since AGES.....Even the Now enlightened.....Europe ..used Pit children....to extact...Coal from mines....so that their rich could prosper more......its one of the Inherent Injustices....God has Gifted Humanity....there is no escape.....it will go on like this.....some one else...then in his drawing room will again talk about it ...maybe just to kill time...or keep the concesation going.....I do not know your.....reason....but still..
Call me cynic...or whatever...this mere verbosery...won`t help......yes it may touch some sympathtic stings....for some time but then the life will go on...
...but still One should appreciate.....and acknowledge....that atleast.........
...Maybe....
or Maybe not....
their may be a change...
#9 Posted by septran on July 3, 2003 8:09:43 am
Hamid,
you have high lighted child abuse in a very pathetic way.only senstive person can feel it.the other day i was just buying a pair of shoe for my self,i saw a six year old ,bare foot with dirty clothes entered the shop.I just bought a pair of shoes for him.He could not believe it,twice he pulled my dupatta in excitement``mera hai``
his face was brighten with the very idea of shoes.his heart was filled with awe and reverence.but we always give five, ten rupees and get aside..unfortunately we think all task should be done by government.in fact it``s you and me who has to ceate awareness among the people for egaltarian society.every individual has to pay his role.
over seas people should get to gather to form some organisation with the help of NGO.where they can learn different skills ,so that they may earn their livlihood as well as self respect.one drop of water can make a puddle.
you have high lighted child abuse in a very pathetic way.only senstive person can feel it.the other day i was just buying a pair of shoe for my self,i saw a six year old ,bare foot with dirty clothes entered the shop.I just bought a pair of shoes for him.He could not believe it,twice he pulled my dupatta in excitement``mera hai``
his face was brighten with the very idea of shoes.his heart was filled with awe and reverence.but we always give five, ten rupees and get aside..unfortunately we think all task should be done by government.in fact it``s you and me who has to ceate awareness among the people for egaltarian society.every individual has to pay his role.
over seas people should get to gather to form some organisation with the help of NGO.where they can learn different skills ,so that they may earn their livlihood as well as self respect.one drop of water can make a puddle.
#8 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on July 3, 2003 7:23:00 am
Hamid
My heart weeps at all what you have said. So true and tragic.
And we are stuck in our stupid egos, ideologies, religious righteousness, territorial claims and so on. (pakistan is spending Rs 160 Billion on defence - and 3 Billion on education)
The mankind is one - the human beings no matter of which origin are the same -
The only stark difference is their quality of life.
#7 Posted by jay on July 3, 2003 7:22:46 am
Hamid, Amina rasool 5
Your article deserves an exception. I do agree with all you said, the dreamy faces with shattered dreams, and reminds me of my young days when I was a young man with enviable job. There used to be these children, near the shops where I lived in Bangalore and they were there all through the day. I used to buy them expensive baked items, the kinds they are unlikely to taste, and they used to crowd around this mad man., a ritual continued for several years. There was no intention to help them, but only a gesture to acknowledge the oneness, may be a deeper realisation that if the dice of destiny had rolled differently, I could have been one among them. We were poor. So amina, dont thnk of helping, may be no one can help, but there is no harm in giving a token of recognition of the mystery of human existance.
Your article deserves an exception. I do agree with all you said, the dreamy faces with shattered dreams, and reminds me of my young days when I was a young man with enviable job. There used to be these children, near the shops where I lived in Bangalore and they were there all through the day. I used to buy them expensive baked items, the kinds they are unlikely to taste, and they used to crowd around this mad man., a ritual continued for several years. There was no intention to help them, but only a gesture to acknowledge the oneness, may be a deeper realisation that if the dice of destiny had rolled differently, I could have been one among them. We were poor. So amina, dont thnk of helping, may be no one can help, but there is no harm in giving a token of recognition of the mystery of human existance.
#6 Posted by soundmeister on July 3, 2003 7:22:45 am
So-----?
Kuch nayaa bolo yaar---your tirade sounds like a fundraising speech delivered to a bunch of fat goraas with charity on their mind----
Hamid Mahmood? think I can say with confidence that it isn`t hamidm :)))
Kuch nayaa bolo yaar---your tirade sounds like a fundraising speech delivered to a bunch of fat goraas with charity on their mind----
Hamid Mahmood? think I can say with confidence that it isn`t hamidm :)))
#5 Posted by aminarasool on July 2, 2003 11:35:08 pm
hello,
A very good description, and i am happy that i came across this writing, it made me think. Every day i see children of all ages walking besides me, but i am so busy chasing the blurred dream that i do not take time out to actually listen to their silent cry. There is so much we can do to help them, but then i am not sure what can be done. You can put them in school but then you will be taking away a bread earner. Their families survive because of them. This is a vicious circle of fate, and though things can be done to improve the situation but there is no one doing the need full. Nevertheless, nice work and please keep on writing on such matters, it is time that they are brought to light and away from the shackles of being called a taboo.
A very good description, and i am happy that i came across this writing, it made me think. Every day i see children of all ages walking besides me, but i am so busy chasing the blurred dream that i do not take time out to actually listen to their silent cry. There is so much we can do to help them, but then i am not sure what can be done. You can put them in school but then you will be taking away a bread earner. Their families survive because of them. This is a vicious circle of fate, and though things can be done to improve the situation but there is no one doing the need full. Nevertheless, nice work and please keep on writing on such matters, it is time that they are brought to light and away from the shackles of being called a taboo.
#4 Posted by temporal on July 2, 2003 3:39:19 pm
Hamid:
...in the canvas you selected (for reasons best known to you) you chose to use only charcoal...it does reflect the grim reality when seen that way...reminded me of pixote and its unacknowledged rip-off salaam bombay
...on the bigger canvas of life there are other colours as well...
rgds,
t
...in the canvas you selected (for reasons best known to you) you chose to use only charcoal...it does reflect the grim reality when seen that way...reminded me of pixote and its unacknowledged rip-off salaam bombay
...on the bigger canvas of life there are other colours as well...
rgds,
t
#3 Posted by sri on July 2, 2003 3:39:19 pm
As Inquirer said, where is the call for action ? The same human tragedy exists in India too. A ten minute drive in Bombay, you will see the worst slums and greatest human tragedy.
Some of us know what we are. We are the great thinkers of our country. We know what we need to do make our people prosperous. We got innovative ideas to start businesses, companies, etc. that provide employment. We know we are not whining little loosers. We got great knowledge on every thing related to economics such as GDP, PPP, etc. We know our country is ruled by some previous generation, thick headed, corrupt politicians. We know previous generation politicians with their stupid heads stuck in their behinds are ruining our country with their corrupt ways, slogans and incitement. We need to wake up. Through sabotage we should hang `em high from the lamp posts. Through clever means, the good people should grab the seats of power that make policy decisions. Every honest young man should aim to become a local MLA ( member of legislative assembly ) or MP ( of parliament ). Only then we can BEGIN to change our country.
#2 Posted by moulabux on July 2, 2003 2:20:39 pm
Reminds of this one dialogue of Liar Liar, where an ecstatic Jim Carrey hands all the green bucks he had to a beggar, and says something like, ``You can have all my money, but it won`t keep you happy.`` Sad but true.
Cheers.
Cheers.
#1 Posted by Inquirer on July 2, 2003 12:34:41 pm
You have written a ghastly description. Your statement is sadly deficient because you invoke no action. All over the world the poor are exploited. But there is need here to propound something! There has to be a rallying position otherwise yours is just a shiek in dark wilderness.
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