Ancient Pakistan

It is interesting to learn that Islamic society do value their pre-islamic past. Islam is a young religion. Its presence in the Indian sub-continent cannot mean that nothing existed before it. Indian civilization is an ancient one, and pakistanis must recognize that this is their ancient past. Pakistani brothers and sisters, you must recognize that this your heritage as much as it is mine! This may not make the mullah`s happy who look to the book for everything, but life is much larger than any book.

I would like others to look at the other interesting aspects of ancient jihadis:- the Gazis, the looters, plunderers, rapists and the Jihadis par excellence. Who would like to convert everybody in their image. The ultimate immortality:

Zahiru`d-Din Muahmmed Babur(CE 1526-1530)
Source: Babur Nama
Place:Chanderi (Madhya Pradesh)

In AH 934 (CE 1528) I attacked Chanderi and by the grace of Allah captured it in a few hours...We got the infidels slaughtered and the place which had been daru`l - harb for years was made into a daru`l-islam.
Babur`s poem on killing Hindus

For the sake of Islam I became a wanderer;
I battled infidels and Hindus.
I determined to become a martyr.
Thank God I became a Ghazi(killer of non-Muslims)
Quoted in Dr. Harsh Narain`s article:Rama-Janma Bhumi Muslim testimony
Indian Express Feb,26,1990 Place:Uttar Pradesh
Since the establishment of Zahiru`d-Din Ghazi`s rule ...officers and religious leaders spread Islam vigorously destroying Hindu faith. We cleared of the filth of Hinduism from Faizabad and Avadh.
Guru Nanak on Babur`s atrocities:
Source:Rag Asa Guru Nanak Dev witnessed first hand the atrocities Babur committed on Hindus and recorded them in his poems. He says:

Having attacked Khuraasaan, Babar terrified Hindustan. The Creator Himself does not take the blame, but has sent the Mugal as the messenger of death. There was so much slaughter that the people screamed. Didn`t You feel compassion, Lord? pg (360)
On the condition of Hindu women in Babur`s monster rule:

Those heads adorned with braided hair, with their parts painted with vermillion - those heads were shaved with scissors, and their throats were choked with dust.They lived in palatial mansions, but now, they cannot even sit near the palaces.... ropes were put around their necks, and their strings of pearls were broken. Their wealth and youthful beauty, which gave them so much pleasure, have now become their enemies. The order was given to the soldiers, who dishonored them, and carried them away. If it is pleasing to God`s Will, He bestows greatness; if is pleases His Will, He bestows punishment pg(417-18)
On the nature of Mughal rule under Babur:

First, the tree puts down its roots, and then it spreads out its shade above. The kings are tigers, and their officials are dogs; they go out and awaken the sleeping people to harass them. The public servants inflict wounds with their nails. The dogs lick up the blood that is spilled. Source:Rag Malar, (pg.1288)
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Jahangir(1605-1628)
Source: Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri

Though in the beginning of his rule Jahangir followed the humanistic rule of his father Akbar the great -the policy of sulehkul even issued a proclamation against the forcible conversion of Hindus to Islam, he revoked Akbar`s orders that those who have been forcibly converted from Islam could return to Hinduism. He severely punished Kaukab, Sharif and Abdul Latif for showing inclination to Hinduism. He also prohibited the free inter-marriage customs between Hindus and Muslims in Kashmir. Hindus marrying Muslim girls and those who had already married were given a hoice between Islam and death. Many were killed.

Jahangir`s torture of Guru Arjun Dev ji: Guru was imprisoned at Lahore fort. He was chained to a post in an open place exposed to the sun from morning to evening in the summer months of May to June. Below his feet a heap of sand was put which burnt like a furnace. Boiling water was poured on his naked body at intervals. His body was covered with blisters all over. In this agony Guru used to utter.

Tera Kiya Metha lage, naam padarath Nanak mange(whatever you ordain appears sweet. I supplicate for the gift of name)
The Guru was ordercd to be executed. In addition a fine of Rupees two lakhs was imposed on him. Some historians say that, as a measure of clemency at the intervention of Mian Mir, this fine was imposed in lieu of the sentence of death. The Sikhs offered to pay the fine themselves but the Guru forbade them to do so. He replied to the Emperor,

``Whatever money I have is for the poor, the friendless and the stranger. If thou ask for money thou mayest take what I have; but if thou ask for it by way of fine, I shall not give thee even a Kaurz (penny).`` The Guru accepted death by torture
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Shah Jahan(1658-1707)
In 1632 Shah jahan ordered that all Hindu temples recently erected or in the course of construction should be razed to the ground. In Benares alone seventy six temples were destroyed. Christian churches at Agra and Lahore were demolished. In a manner befitting the Prophet he had ten thousand inhabitants executed by being ``blown up with powder, drowned in water or burnt by fire``. Four thousand were taken captive to Agra where they were tortured to try to convert them to Islam. Only a few apostacised, the remainder were trampled to death by elephants, except for the younger women who went to harems.
Shahjahan put enormous eonomic pressure on Hindus particularly peasents to become Muslims. The criminals too were forced to become Muslims.

Source: Badshah Nama, Qazinivi & Badshah Nama , Lahori


When Shuja was appointed as governor of Kabul he carried on a ruthless war in the Hindu territory beyond Indus...The sword of Islam yielded a rich crop of converts....Most of the women (to save their honour) burnt themselves to death. Those captured were distributed among Muslim Mansabdars.
Source: Manucci, Storia do Mogor vol-II p.451 & Travels of Frey Sebastian Manrique


Under Shahjahan peasents were compelled to sell their women and children to meet their revenue requirements....The peasents were carried off to various Markets and fairs to be sold with their poor unhappy wives carrying their small children crying and lamenting. According to Qaznivi Shahjagan had decreed they should be sold to Muslim lords.
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Aurangazeb(1658-1707)
Aurangzeb considered himself ``The Scourge Of The Kafirs`` (non-believers) and closed Hindu schools and libraries. In his lifetime he destroyed more than 10,000 Hindu, Buddhist and Jam temples and often erected mosques in their stead.3 In 1669 in Agra he had hacked off the limbs of the recalcitrant Hindu King Gokla and in 1672 several thousand revolting Hindus were slaughtered in Mewat.

Source: Maasi-i-Alamgiri


Issued general order to destroy all centers of Hindu learnings including Varnasi and destroyed the temple at Mathura and renamed it as Islamabad
In Khandela (rajastan) he killed 300 Hindus in one day for they resisted the destruction of their temple.
In Udaipur all Hindus of the town were killed as they vowed to defend the temple of Udaipur from destruction.
172 temples were destroyed in Udaipur.
66 temples were pulled down in Amber. All Hindu clerks were dismissed from the office of the Imperial empire.
In Pandhpur , Maharashtra, the Emperor ordered and executed the destruction of temple and butchering of cows within the temple.
Aurangazeb also tortured to death the disciples of Guru Tegh bahadur before his death and also killed Guru. Guru Tegh Bahadur - the pride of Hindustan was martyred for he spoke for the persecuted Hindus of Hindustan. Aurangazeb also killed Guru Gobind singh`s two children aged less than ten by walling them alive for not accepting the choice of Islam. In Punjab Muslim governors killed hundreds of Sikh children and made Sikh women eat the flesh of their own killed children. Banda Bahadur another great Sikh martyr before being torturd to death was also made to eat the flesh of his own children killed before his eyes. Any Muslim bringing the head of a dead Sikh was also awarded money.


Guru Tegh Bahadur`s Supreme sacrifice for Kashmiri Hindus
In 1674 CE Aurangzeb ordered that the Hindus of J&K be converted to Islam by force from the Kashmir side. Harassed beyond any human measure by Sher Afgan Khan, the Governor of Kashmir, the prominent Brahmins of Kashmir led by Pandit Kirpa Ram (who later became Sanskrit tutor of Guru Govind Singh, appeared before the Guru at Anandpur on the 25th May, 1675 CE, and appealed for protection. In His infinite compassion Guru tegh Bahadur assured them total protection. Guru proclaimed His resolve to protect the Dharma of Bharath,
``Go and tell the Governor that Guru Tegh Bahadur is our leader. If you convert him to Islam, we shall become Muslims of our own accord.``
On getting this message, Aurangzeb ordered the arrest of the Guru. For courting arrest, the Guru started towards Agra from Anandpur on the 11th July, 1675 CE At Agra, when the soldiers came to arrest the Guru.
Aurangazeb tortured Guru`s disciples before his own eyes to break Guru`s resolve.
The qazis asked Bhai Mati Dass a disciple of Guru ,

``Embrace Islam and enjoy the pleasures provided by the goveInment. Moreover when you die as a Muslim, you will go to heaven where there will be streams of milk, many kinds of wine to drink and beautiful women to enjoy. If you do not embrace Islam, your body will be sawn into two.``
Bhai Mati Dass replied,
``I can sacrifice hundreds of such heavens for Dharma. I don`t need women nor wine. I see all the happiness in the path of Dharma.``
After his refusal, the qazis asked him his last wish, to which he replied,
`When I am being cut with the saw, let my face be towards my mentor so that I may behold my Guru till my last breath and he may keep on seeing me so that he may be convinced how happily I reach my last destination.`
By the order of the qazis, the executioners sawed Bhai Mati Dass into two by axe on the 8th November, 1675 CE, in Chandani Chowk, Delhi.
On the 9th November, 1675 C.E, the Qazis ordered that Bhai Dayal Dass be seated in a cauldron of boiling water... Before putting Bhai Dayal Dass in the cauldron of boiling water, the qazis said,

``There is still time. Embrace Islam and save yourself from pains otherwise you will face greater agony than your companion. You have seen how cruelly he was sawn.``
Bhai Dayal Dass replied,
``You could not harass my companion. Did you notice, how calmly he was meditating on the word of his Guru when he was being sawn. Having made mockery of bodily pains, he had diffused into the Supreme Being. Hurry up and let my soul attain unity with the Lord.``
On his reply in the negative, the executioners sat him in the cauldron of boiling water. He stayed on sitting in the water with an unwavering mind. His flesh separated from his bones and his soul merged into the Supreme Being.
(Source: From the work of Sri.Santok Singh Jagdev.Published by SGPC)
Established in His Divine resolve of Dharma Guru Tegh Bahadur tolerated all the tortures of Aurangazeb with smile. Guru Tegh Bahadur was threatened and given a choice to embrace Islam or death.

Guru chose Death rather than deviating from the path of Dharma. Guru sat in meditation and was beheaded by Aurangazeb. Aurangazeb killed Guru physically but Guru`s words eternally power the hearts of every child of Hindustan. He had said in the face of death:
Bah Jinahn di pakariye
Sar dije bah na chhoriye
Tegh Bahadur bolya
Dhar payae dharma na chhoriye
Give up your head,
but forsake not those whom you have undertaken to protect.
Says Tegh Bahadur, sacrifice your life,
but relinquish not your Dharma
Atrocities on Sikhs by Mughal officers(1748)
In 1748 CE Mughals appointed Meer Mannu as Governor (Subedar) of Lahore and also as a Nawab of Multan. A fanatical Muslim he wanted to kill all Sikhs.He gave money to Muslims who would bring him a Sikh head. He ordered that all Sikh women in Jails to be provided with specially made heavy flour grinding instrument named Chakki. Sikh woman happily would sing the Shabads of Nanak and grind flour whole day.They preferred hard work and toil to the choice of Islam.
Meer Mannu then ordered that all Sikh infants be killed unless they or their mothers should get converted to Islam. More than 300 Sikh infants were killed by Muslims and their dead bodies given back to their mothers. History of Hindustan records with pride and veneration that not a single Khalsa mother got converted to Islam.

#68 Good one ... you know no one thinks of something as basic as the place value system ... but try and imagine higer math in roman numerals !! You`re right about ``we stand on the shoulders of giants who came before us`` bit. The enlightenment of europe was impossible without the rediscovery of the greek classics (preserved by the arabs while europeans destroyed every copy during the dark ages), the chinese paper and printing technology (the oldest book in the world is the buddhist ``Diamond Sutra``) and indian (arabic) mathematics !!

Aasif #66 Job 1 is of course watching out for Number 1 (yourself). No doubt. And one needs to make sure one`s children are raised to be self-sufficient human beings, not hate-filled monsters nor hungry little parasites. And surely if one has migrated to a foreign land, then one should in fact try to contribute what one can to one`s immediate community (in the foreign land) and one can even forget all about Pakistan (or India or whereever one came from).

But I think it would be a mistake in today`s world. The Old Country is now as close as your TV remote. Only by understanding and appreciating the positive aspects of the country of their forefathers, while at the same time appreciating the country of their immigrant parents, will the children be able to grow up as the above-mentioned human beings.

Furthermore, no country can live in isolation any more (as Bush realized after 9/11, and did a 180 degree turn in terms of isolationism). Expats can and should serve as bridges between the two countries they spend their lives in. This is probably the biggest gift they can leave behind for their children after taking care of raising them properly.

roohi #67 Now, after reading your post and ``googling`` on the internet, I know about the Bakshali Manuscript. :-) Actually, I read up a bit on the history of Indian math as well. While I did some internet research for the above article, and the article was largely inspired by an article in the Scientific American by Prof. Kenoyer who has been doing a lot of digging (literally and figuratively) into the IVC lately, I can lay only an interested layman`s claim to archeology. So, I cant say what Pakistani sources have to say about the manuscript. I think I will do some more digging on this when I visit Pakistan next though...

From the little I checked, it seems the Bakshali Manuscript was written around 400 AD (although for some reason they seem to be having difficulty dating it properly, with estimates ranging from 100 AD to 750 AD). It was written around the time of the golden age of Jaina math. Jaina math served as a bridge between earlier math from the vedic period and the classical math of India of between the 6th and 12th centuries AD. The first Indian satellite incidentally was named after a mathematician Aryabhata from the classical math period. The significance of Jaina math (undertaken by the Jains) seems to be that it introduced the theory of numbers as an abstraction - this took math a step beyond where it had been developed in even earlier times in India which basically related to commercial and religious uses of math. Jaina math introduced the concept of infinity (which it conceived in terms of various dimensions - length, area, volume, and time). In addition to the famous concept of zero, the math included algebra (including simultaneous and quadratic equations), fractions and decimals, the pi and other mathematical concepts.

With the end of the classical period (12th century AD), the Arabs (Baghdadis in particular) invited hindu mathematicians over, mastered the math. This was the golden age of Arabs, when they appreciated other cultures. The Europeans picked up the math from Arabs, and so the numbering system is called Arabic numerals to this day, and algebra (which seems to me to be another copy job the Arabs did from Indian math) too entered the english language from some arab root (al-something). Of course, by learning from others, the Arabs were able to make their own contributions as well (algorithms, from al-Khwarizm) being the best known.

And so as Newton said, we stand on the shoulders of giants who came before us. Those giants being from every part of the world.

Long post, but this seems like a fascinating piece of history. And God Bless Google for putting it at our fingertips.

Hi Tauheed - Wondering if you had ever heard of the Bakhshali Manuscript through Pakistani sources ? It`s really interesting if you`re into Math ... no one gives subcontinental math the credit it deserves in it`s contribution to the world ...

``The Bakhshali Manuscript is the name given to the mathematical work written on birch bark and found in the summer of 1881 near the village Bakhshali (or Bakhshalai) of the Yusufzai subdivision of the Peshawar district (now in Pakistan). The village is in Mardan tahsil and is situated 50 miles from the city of Peshawar.``

``An Inspector of Police named Mian An-Wan-Udin (whose tenant actually discovered the manuscript while digging a stone enclosure in a ruined place) took the work to the Assistant Commissioner at Mardan who intended to forward the manuscript to Lahore Museum. However, it was subsequently sent to the Lieutenant Governor of Punjab who, on the advice of General A Cunningham, directed it to be passed on to Dr Rudolf Hoernle of the Calcutta Madrasa for study and publication. Dr Hoernle presented a description of the BM before the Asiatic Society of Bengal in 1882, and this was published in the Indian Antiquary in 1883. He gave a fuller account at the Seventh Oriental Conference held at Vienna in 1886 and this was published in its Proceedings. A revised version of this paper appeared in the Indian Antiquary of 1888. In 1902, he presented the Bakhshali Manuscript to the Bodleian Library, Oxford, where it is still (Shelf mark: MS. Sansk. d. 14). ``

RE: #65 by tahmed32:
While I do care about what happens to 2-3 generations down the road, my immediate concern is what I will see in my lifetime and that of my children. Things will go much worse before they get better and prevailing norms are all pointing in that direction with a few exceptions. For people who have put their lot in a foreign land their connection to the mother country will not survive beyond a generation or two. Hence their ambivalence is justified. If you know of people who have dealt with any facet of the pakistani civil machinery (currently with an ugly military mask) and the exisitng laws on property and governance and the implementation of those laws, you will know how bad is the rot. When judges and their representatives contact you directly and ask for bribes for cases where you are the aggrieved party and if you don`t comply you loose the case or it is dragged on for years/decades. It is all quite surreal when the judge himself meets you in a place of worship and accepts the bribe and keeps saying ``maula barkat dai``.
subhanallah.
Regards,
Aasif

P.S. On sri vidya dhar (rsridhar), leave him alone he is beyond help.

rsridhar #63 The bamian buddhas were not within pakistan, and pakistan can hardly be considered responsible for them. Like any other country, Pakistan is responsible for safe custody of ancient relics that lie within its borders. And to a large extent it has lived up to its responsibility, despite the chronic resource problems that all poor countries face.

You are in any case wrong in saying that Pakistanis were silent on the Bamian buddhas. As I recall, it was in fact Pakistan that spearheaded the international appeals to the taliban to spare the statues including visits to Kabul for this purpose by special representatives.

You quote from some mullah on his women hatred philosophy. This is not relevant to the article, but since you bring it up let me say that by presenting the words of an extremist as if they represented the entire society you are simply fooling yourself.

Let me try to correct your false impression of Pakistan vis-a-vis India in this matter (not that I think I will succeed) by presenting you with the following simple fact: The availability of sonogram technology was used by would-be parents to kill female fetuses in large numbers in India. The extent of these killings of females was so large that today there is a serious shortage of brides across India, particularly Haryana (by one generally accepted estimate it is about 40 million!!). We have no such problem in Pakistan, since the idea of using medical technology to identify girl-fetuses never really caught on in Pakistan.

But as I said, I dont expect such facts to cloud the ideology of ``Pakistan Bad, India Good`` that seems to be drilled in the minds of surprisingly many Indian posters on chowk. I would go so far as to say that you need to start worrying about the brainwashing that is evident among Indian posters. That does not mean that we Pakistanis dont need to worry about similar brainwashing in our madrassahs, and I also decry the ``India Bad, Pakistan Good`` ideology that is reflected in our schools and press and political discussions. Its just that your problems are at least as big as ours the way I see it - they just get less press since hindu extremism is a localized threat and not a global one. But the brainwashing is no less, and (at least from chowk it seems) more widespread.

Aasif #61 As I mentioned, time is against the fuedals - landholdings are split every generation thus reducing the power of individual feudals. The growing power of urban areas (due to rising population) vs. rural areas also works against them. The growing middle and professional classes are another factor.
Sitting in Sindh, the heartland of the feudals in Pakistan, the above may seem hard to believe. The rising threat is that of the mullahs I think. I have no doubt that even this threat has the tide of history against it and so will not succeed. But it can nevertheless put Pakistan back by a couple of generations if musharaff doesnt root it out. I am hoping that external pressures from the US and India (the latter in the form of peace overtures currently being made, not threats as the Indian governments have been inclined to do in the past) will help musharaff get his act together here.

re:#62 by tahmed32
Your saying that Pak is inheritor of a great civilization including Gandhara is academic when few in Pak protested when the Bamian Buddha statues were destroyed.
Anyway, Pak needs to correct the history that it is teaching its young minds in schools before this talk about ``being inheritors of a great civilisation`` becomes meaningful.

It is the same mentality that was silent at the destruction of Bamian Buddhas that seeks to destroy billboards depicting beautiful women because some feel they are ``unislamic``.
http://jang.com.pk/thenews/jul2003-daily/05-07-2003/oped/o6.htm


Amirul Azeem, a Jamat Islami leader, explains the woman-hatred philosophy in his recently published article.
``It is neither unlawful nor unconstitutional to destroy the billboards that have women`s images. This action of destroying evil falls under the principle of self-help. The campaign to destroy the billboards was launched because the government had failed to take notice of this evil. The depiction of women on billboards is a cause of annoyance and shame. The billboards with women are akin to garbage. If the government fails to clear the garbage then it becomes the responsibility of the citizen to throw the garbage in the dustbin. In the same way it is the responsibility of the mullah to destroy the billboards that show women images``. (from above Url).



Another article in SAtribune talks about identity crisis in Pak. Pak churns out thousands of students from madrassas who are indoctined to a certain philosophy. This philosophy is not ``all encompassing``. It is excluvistic and hate-filled.
http://www.satribune.com/archives/jul06_12_03/opinion_chowdhuri.htm


``This crisis has its root in the fact that for some inexplicable reasons, Pakistan does not want to own the rich history of 3,000 years of the Indian subcontinent in spite of the indisputable reality that they know that they cannot claim to be the sole inheritors of the Indus Valley Civilisation and the subsequent history of the Indian subcontinent.

This becomes quite clear from even a cursory glance at the Pakistani school and college level history books. In fact, Pakistani historians are in a dilemma about whether to accept the golden age of Mauryas and Guptas of ancient India or not. Similarly, whether King Asoka, who is a part of the Indian subcontinent folklore, belongs to them or to India.

Therefore, Pakistani history books either skip or make just a cursory mention of some of the glorious periods of ancient Indian history. Apparently, Pakistani historians feel that projecting these Hindu and Buddhist Kings would be “blasphemous”.``

``Some of the Pakistani historians even propagate the ridiculous theory that the Mughal Kings ruled the subcontinent not from Delhi but from Lahore or Rawalpindi. They refuse to accept the fact that after Aurangzeb the Mughal Kings squandered their riches and proved to be incompetent rulers which enabled the British to usurp power from the mid-18th century onwards.

They argue that the British could conquer India because the Hindu Maharajas collaborated with the colonial masters and, therefore, the downfall of the Mughal dynasty was due to the machinations of the Hindu traitors who sold out the country to the British.``

With this kind of indoctrination going on for the past several decades, truth is always a casualty. Though it is good to know that some people in Pak may want to be associated with the rich heritage of IVC, Gandhara etc, they form a tiny minority.
Sridhar

RE #60 by tahmed32:
I think you still have to see who got elected from punjab and that will tell you whether the problem still exists or not. Religious parties are in for the long haul in NWFP and balochistan. Balochistan still has a lot of sardar power which is not a viable option. Feudals exist in punjab and sindh and my question was who is going to replace them in punjab. Except lahore there are very few alternative except the feudals (one cousin or another). Draining the swamps may mean draining the military budget and transferring what little wealth we have in education. Both vocational and traditional system of schooling. NGOs can do a lot but a lot more needs to be done. I agree with you on musharraf but then he should devolve some power to local authorities and let them do what they should be doing and step down himself.

I think veersh is out waiting for inspiration to strike after imbibing sooma and khmar. He is probably floating on a persian rug with a harley davidson. May the gods have mercy on the souls who are brave enough to try his satanic recipes.

RE #59 by faisaluno:
I agree with most of what you say with a few exception. The abuse of power by MQM and its cronies did affect a lot of people. A lot of people were killed and tortured but what the essshtaablishment showed on the media was blown out of proportion. They needed justification for the operation cleanups in karachi so a butcher house became a torture cell. MQM being one of the few middle class parties held a lot of promise but thanks to the angels in khakis and the politicians who could not tolerate such trifurcation (mult?) of power wanted to cut it down to size. The bhatta culture did target the awaam and there are a lot of disgruntled karachiites. All in all they did not target their except perhaps haqiqis which sadly our their own. May be another case too of much too soon. If anyone can control these jehadis in karachi it will not be the saint living close to nazimabad with his flowing beard strolling in the median turned into a park. It has to be the MQM. So hope springs eternel. To each his/her own kawab/kabob/kabab or dosa.

RE #58 by ijaz_gul:
Very interesting. Does this not coincide with what our neighbors said it all along? Any references to these biblical scholars?

Regards,
Aasif

ijaz gul #58 We should indeed be proud that we as pakistanis are the custodians of the a civilization that is significant not just to this region but to all of mankind - after all, the IVC represents one of the first ``baby steps`` mankind took anywhere in the world as it moved from the stone-age and formed human settlements. We are also sharing it with the rest of humanity, both for tourism and scientific scholarship, and for that I think we can credit not just the tourist agencies but also the Pakistan Archaeology Department as well as traditions set by people like Prof. Dani.

As for the Indians, they too are custodians of important settlements of this civilization in India, while recognizing that the civilization was centered around an ancient river in what is now Pakistan, and that the vast majority of the settlements, as well as Harappa which is considered to be the nerve center of this civilization, are in Pakistan. As such, Indian interest in this civilization is healthy I think. The only thing unhealthy I have noticed (in checking the internet) is the use of this civilization by competing ideological factions in India (notably Dravidian vs. Aryan) as well as some fake scholarship (e.g. books advertized from India that claim to have deciphered the IVC writing when in fact all recognized scholars agree that the writing remains undeciphered). But this should not cloud the fact that both India and Pakistan have something in common here, and joint responsibility to future generations to preserve and protect and learn more about this great civilization.

I should also note that this civilization is great not because of military power (during its time, there simply were not competing nations to conquer or to protect against), but due to the true hallmarks of a civilization: trade and commerce, town planning, creativity, being the most prominent as evidenced from the remains.

We Pakistanis are indeed blessed with a rich history. Gandhara is another great civilization that followed on the heels of the IVC, and Asoka was undoubtedly one of the most enlightened emperors the world has known (Bollywood, I may add, made a movie about him as well).

I just hope that one day we will be a prosperous enough nation for the average Pakistani to have the time and resources to enjoy the rich heritage left behind by these wonderful civilizations.

asif:

i am afraid you are comparing kawabs with dossas here. mqm leadership horrible as it is, did not target the awam. their beef was with another brilliant creation of our establishment, mqm haqiqi. sub-human jehadis and their mma sugar daddies on the other hand have absolutely nor regards for the life of ordinary paki. members of mma leadership, who have never seen a mike that they did not like turn strangely silent after incidences like the one that happened in quetta on friday. and amazing to see the shia party still staying with mma. and what is going through the minds of geniuses in our establishment? i mean they justifiably kicked mqm`s ass for crimes less heinous. what is going to take for the whip to fall upon the mullahs?

Aasif #57 The feudals are a dying problem I think as a result of urbanization and the splitting of landholdings from one generation of landlords to the next. They are largely finished as a force in most of panjab, and never amounted to much in nwfp. They will remain of course a force in Sindh and southern panjab for the next two or three generations, then they are gone. It is the jehadis who are the biggest threat now all across pakistan. The only way to clean them up i think is to ``drain the swamps`` where they grow (reform madrassas, end flow of funds to them, end special privileges that musharaff gave them whereby they ``won`` elections). musharaff is currently the only man on earth who can do that and he has not done half as much as he could have so far i think ...

As for veeresh...he does seem to have floated off into thin air ever since i suggested he provide the recipe which he said he had for that menu he had provided...nevertheless, I still retain faith that he will come floating back to earth at some point...

With reference to the Article by Toheed, it is a pity that the Indians are making good business of what is ours. They call it the Srivastava civilisation. As for us, the dilemma and coflict of our identity has cost us this piece of history.

In the Holy Bible and Torah, there is a reference in the Book of Genesis to the land of Havala and the Pishon that flew through it fed by five tributeries. This was the Eden of Adam and Eve before they were banished. Most Biblical scholars conclude that this river is Indus or the one that flowed next to it.

so we inherit a great land that ruled the world then and again during the mauryan empire when Chandra Gupta ruled from Taxila. The kingdom extended from what is now Bharat to central Asia, Greece and Egypt. Much of local folklore is also found in Homer`s poetry, The influence was carried from here to Europe through Arab traders.

RE:#55 by tahmed32:
Unfortunately most if not all of these MQM critters are local and therefore are not going anywhere. Except perhaps their leadership (much like the feudal, industrialist thugs up north) these people have no where to go. How about a deal: We democratize and cleanup the mess in karachi and you try to do the same up north. You have the added benefit of having the religious nuts waiting in the wings as soon as the feudals loose their grip. Karachi and to a certain degree lahore have a populace who is relatively well educated and extremely diverse. So all is not lost but who is going to cleanup quetta and peshawar? And jhang? and southern punjab etc. etc. I digress.
I have sampled the naan-daal in lahore many moons ago.. and I do agree it is exquisite (Don`t know about the chai as I am an anti-chai karachite (a rarity indeed!)) . BUT... we in karachi have this and a lot more. You know a true cosmpolitan multi ethnic city offers a lot to person who is not afraid to travel without a motorcade and is comfortable outside the cantonment.
On veersh .. well you have to read his posts more carefully and you will see a person not even trying to control his substance abuse.. :)

Regards,
Aasif

Aasif #54 No!! Please!! I insist!! Keep those ``jehadi critters`` in karachi. We have more than we need in the north, and will be glad to send you the rest (Incidentally, I thought you also had a problem with your ``MQM critters`` from India.)

You take care of all these nasty critters running lose in karachi, and THEN I shall hop onto the next bullock cart departing from Rawalpindi to Karachi in order to put away those massala dosas you mention. As for veeresh, I am sure he is a man of his word even when his word is a bit slurred, and I ams sure he prove this by providing that recipe I mentioned to him. As for your dhabbas, we invented them in the north. Order a ``draiver chaa`` and naan-daal from a Lahore dhabba, and you will leave karachi and never go back again...trust me.

manophd #53 Thanks.

RE #52 by tahmed32:
It is good that you once again displayed the depth of your knowledge about the biggest city of pakistan. It will be a good experience for you to go visit it sometimes once they send the jehadi critters back north (or outside pakistan) where they belong. One thing about veersh is don`t believe everything he is says in its entirety. I have heard he writes some of his posts after imbibing some of ``heavenly`` mixes he mentioned. But then some convent types would be satisfied in a yuppy restaurant regardless of authenticity of the cuisine. More power to them! We are content with our street side ``hotels`` (dhabaas) and cafes. Thank you.

RE: #51 by veeresh:
You are quite welcome. I don`t think any indian journalists you have read mentioned kharadar or meethdar either; but does that mean they don`t exists? No offence intended, but going by yours and other interactions at chowk these journalists friends will be more interested in booze concoctions and jehadi outfits. Your description of honoring guests would have been funny if I hadn`t read what one particular sect in india have been doing to some humans. Thanks but no thanks. I will be content on eating it on a banana leaf and drinking out of a coconut. As far as variations to south indian specialities they sound as ``interesting`` as the kentucky fried chicken mandarin style I saw a while back at a chinese buffet. :) I am still willing to try it once because we pakis are just so darn polite. Still our DOSAS are still better than yours.

RE #50 by m_souza:
Wow I didn`t know that you had a indus valley civilization too. What were the chances?
As for the makki and sarsoN, this may qualify as south indian food in butter (better?) punjab which is ever so green since the 60s. but you still forgot palak paneer. I don`t know what have they done to it in the better half on the right side of the border but you may want to ask sameer singh.


Regards,
Aasif

good article

Aasif #49 i knew you karachiites were having fun underneath all the bad publicity. but i didnt realize you even had south indian food. (my reason for the ignorance incidentally is not that i live in a cocoon in karachi, i just havent been to karachi very much: maybe a week in karachi a few years ago, and that was all work; and before that a full year but i was 10 at the time, and the rest was merely transit within karachi airport). in pindi/islamabad/lahore, where i can still place a modest claim to be an expert, i dont recall seeing any south indian restaurants.

anyway, i doubt if even you cosmopolitan, multiethnic karachiwalas can match the menu that veeresh assures us is available in delhi.

VEERESH: (Excuse the caps, just trying to get your attention): Yes, how about some recipes for the mouth watering items you listed (i try to stay away from keema, though once in a while i guess it is OK). Here`s the deal: On (d) I shall even cook the omellete myself, and advise you of the results as well as of any compliments i may receive from my loved ones.

Hello Aasif #49, thank you for the info on Southie veg food in and around Karachi. Not ONE Indian reporter who has made it to Pakistan has ever mentioned this. Neither have all the Pakies who come to Delhi disguised as diplomats, journalists and dipsos, and then head straight for Karim`s Nemat Keda. Now I know why, must be all those secret dosas in Orangi?

Anyway, do you think you could do a brief intro kind of article on this? I mean, do you guys have a ``Madras Cafe`` or ``Malabar Curry & Cool Drinks Home`` or even better a ``Golconda Resto-Bar``? Or something like that? ``Anand Hindu Hotel and Lodge`` may be too much to expect, but why not?

As for your dosas being better than ours, it is a rule with gracious hospitality and culture in Udipi that we agree with all our fellow human beings before drowning them in sambar made with drumsticks floating inside for breathing with, sending them home in such a way that they are hungry again.

On Karachi dosas, I am willing to put up a few Southie veg recipes with Northie ``adjustment`` fundamentals on chowk if there is a demand. I would then like to see which way the interacts go. Here are a few samples, mutton and poultry based. Sea-food section follows subject to demand:-

a) Kheema idlis.
b) Onion uthapa with curried boiled eggs.
c) Onion uthapa with liquored boiled eggs.
d) Tomato besan omlette with triple bitter marmalade.
e) Kheema-matar dosa Kolhapuri style, with red chillies.
f) Mutton biryani curd rice misal.
g) Rava dosa chicken tongue wrap. (Hyderabad speciality)
h) Set dosai served with Chicken 65.
i) Grand finale! (Secret)

(Informatively, my fortnightly philosopher, Basheer Barber and tel-maalish subsequently Basheer Hairdresser has now re-named his shack Saddam Stylist and is doing better business.)

#49 by Aasif on July 3, 2003 2:45pm PT
And yes our dosas are much better than yours!
Regards,
Aasif
-------

Waise to ..your everything is better than ours..even YOUR Indus civilization
But are your dosas better `coz you put beef in it?
Or...maybe you make them with `makki ka atta` and serve it with `saron da saag`

RE: #34 by tahmed32
RE: #36 by veeresh

Mr tahmed32 is hardly the person to know about anything REAL outside of convents and cantoments in pakistan. If he ever gets out of his gymkhanas he will be surprised to see the bustling cafes in karachi serving south indian food. Heck, he will even be surprised to find people of south indian descent with side waving heads (none of the BO and bad dress sense!). I am sure other cities in karachi will have restaurants serving the cuisine as well.
And yes our dosas are much better than yours!
Regards,
Aasif

aaisha #46 I agree with you that it is pointless to take pride in a ``glorious past`` along the lines it is often done my chauvinists of different stripes (hindu, muslim etc.). And Iqbal`s verse that you quote is certainly very pertinent.
However, if you read the article, you will see that this not so much pride as APPRECIATION of past cultures. We as pakistanis can take pride in the fact that we are the custodians of what are among the first human settlements, and we can appreciate the progressive thinking of those people, and we can share this culture with scholars and archaeologists from around the world (as we are doing) so more light is shed on this culture. This is very different from mere basking in reflected glory.

veeresh #43 As with any corner of earth, there is a lot more to pakistan than one realizes until one visits that place. I think both indians and pakistanis appreciate music and singers already. On the food front, i think pakistan is second to none as you will no doubt find in lahore. On the ideological front, clearly pakistanis are as much in favor or democracy as indians or any other people on earth - we just have this little problem that our generals and politicians dont seem to agree.

It would be interesting to see what would happen as a result of greater cross-fertilization on the ideological front. Here, an observation by a prominent US journalist at a pakistani-american community meeting was interesting I thought: That journalist said that while in india there seems to be a good deal of uniformity in thinking concerning pakistan (generally negative after kargill), in pakistan there is an incredible diversity of opinion. She met with religious extremists (who incidentally she felt were better brought within the political process rather than left outside, since they could thus be forced to play by democratic rules) as well as very secular people. She met with people who disliked India as much as many Indians disliked Pakistan, but she also met people who felt strongly that the Pakistan-India should learn to live like good neighbors. I found this view of an independent and trained observer to be quite interesting.

If we go by these views, I think the place where both sides would benefit most from greater cross-fertilization would be in the growth of democracy in both countries. The example set by India would of course be a powerful stimulus to Pakistan (as it already is, despite the fact that this aspect of India is not played up much in the press given the preoccupation with border issues). In a different way, greater familiarity with Pakistan would also be good for India - the hindu extremist case would be weakened, and the secular forces strengthened, as Indians lose their hostility towards Pakistan.

The study of the ancient past where there is much overlap and things in common, in addition to be of interest in itself, would also serve to promote this healthy cross-fertilization I think.

While it is always great to take pride in a glorious past, our dilemma is that we are so fixated with it that we lose track of how we could make sure that our present becomes our future looks back to with pride as well. A great civilisation? Yes, but where do we stand now?
Thay woh aaba tumhare hi magar tum kya ho?
-Iqbal

sameerjb #41 Yes, my knowledge of East Panjab arts and literature is indeed close to zero. I would second rajanjua`s suggestion that you should consider writing an article about it.
Incidentlly, many years ago I visited the Library of the Congress in washington dc and looked for books related to the panjab. I was expecting books written by englishmen and so forth on the panjab, and was surprised to see that in addition to these there were books written in panjabi in the 19th century that are also maintained by this library. As with all what I shall call ``regional cultures`` (as opposed to the common ``global culture`` that is now emerging), I think panjabi culture as we knew growing up in pakistan, and as our forefathers knew it before that, is heading towards extinction over the next couple of generations as a result of rapid urbanization within panjab (east and west) as well as migration to other countries. The last vetiges will probably continue for some time in the form of sikhs (who hang on to their turbans) but the sikh turban too will go in a few generations the way turbans have already gone for the non-sikh panjabis...

All the more reason to preserve what we can, since no doubt there will always be people with an interest in panjabi culture.

Knowing about pakistan.

In corners of kerala, no one really ares about pakistan, it is a distant land of the muslims. But now they know about it, the knowledge comes from the ceremonial parade for the fallen jawans, that took place during kargill invasion and the various terror strikes in kashmir. Nothing drives home the info about pakistan than these ceremonies. Interestingly, there are no corresponding events in pakistan, the dead are the un-countables. So the elite pakistanis can talk about shairees and punjabi songs and bangra.

Yes Sameer, nice twist. Matter of fact, ancient Pakistan sounds so much like ancient al-Hind. That`s obvious to all, except some.

So let us all get together and celebrate Passover (Pesaach) together if we cannot celebrate Basant (Baisakh)?

re: 41
i mostly know sufis - waris shah`s heer is sort of a bible for me or in my case i should say koran - ustaad daman (not a sufi) is also pretty good - would however like to learn more - maybe you can write an article on the subject sameer.

...nice twist to the discussion about what wach other know about the other. I agree that Panjabi and Urdu speaking (about 70 percent Pakistanis) know much more about India or at least what interests them in India like Taj Mahal, movies, cricket and music. Pakistanis know lot less about two Indian religions - Hindusim and Sikhism than average Indian knows about Islam, understandably due to large percentage of Muslims in India.

The knowledge of Pakistanis drops sharply about anything not in Hindi/ Hindustani language. For example you notice, whenever poetry in Panjabi comes under discussion, it is invariably Sufi for Pakistani Panjabis. Only non-Muslim Panjabi poetess, few know is Amrita Pritam for one famous poem. They are totally blank about prose literature in Panjabi by non-Muslims and Muslims did not produce much. Let me test tahmed, romair and r.a.janjua, nazarhayatkhan, four people of Panjabi background. Please respond honestly. Have you heard of Shiv Kumar Batalvi, Harbhajan Singh, Amarjeet Chandan, Surjit Paatar in poetry or any single name in prose (novel, short storis) by a non-Muslim in Panjabi? Have you ever heard or read anything by a novelist name Kanwal, who has written more than 100 books? Do you know the name of the poet of perhaps most famous Panjabi song turned into folk song, ``Mera long gawacha``? Can you name just 5 non-Muslim panjabi singers currently singing (you have to exclude very old Surinder Kaur, Parkash Kaur, Mohinder Kapoor)?

Romair38/tahmed32 . . . thanks.

But how do you propose we go about getting more Indians to know about Pakistan? What symbols can be added? I, for one, have been looking for contact with a Pakistani motoring journo for almost 10 years or more now!

+++

On existing Pakistani symbols, ground level, in India:-

a) Dry fruit trade, visible during trade fairs, otherwise done very quietly through ``bazaar`` linkages going back centuries.

b) Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, here also, plagiarised so often that many of his efforts become ``ours``.

c) Cricket. I don`t much care for that game. But I guess it has a role.

d) Military as a form of governance, which has a disconnect in India, because military is not governance here in India.

e) Relatives of lower middle class people being visited by their lower middle class relatives on both sides, sometimes over-staying.

f) Bangladeshis flocking into Indian cities and rural areas as cheap labour are sometimes refered to as Pakistanis.

g) Mutual back-slapping variety of grown up baba log/baby log from both sides.

h) ISI. Most visible Pakistani symbol. Sometimes I think ISI is like the Iraqi WMD.

i) Bad guys in Jammu & Kashmir, related to ``h`` above.

j) Mullahs and warring tribals.

+++

The real symbols, the shared MNCs, the chaos on roads, the similarities during birth / growing up / marriage / death . . . these never come out, because I think, to some extent, there is denial of celebration in Pakistan. Is that true?

+++

nice article tahmed.

vereesh #36: I would have to say Pakistanis are pretty good at separating the good and the bad that comes from India. Seriously speaking. This is why I think Pakistanis understand Indians and India far better than Indians understand Pakistan and Pakistanis. At least, that has been my experience, so far.

Indians` knowledge of Pakistan is nearly 100% what the Indian media throws at them. They have nothing to counter it with. Pakistanis knowledge of India is based on what the Pakistani media throws at them also. However, it is mixed in with the massive amount of access and acceptance of Indian movies, Indian music, magazines (related to movies and music) by Pakistanis, plus the fact that most of Karachi seems to have half their relatives still in India. It still leads to a biased opinion, but a far less biased one.

As an example, even anti-Pakistan movies like Gadar, Mission Kashmir etc. do well in Pakistan. You will find that most movie-watching Pakistanis, (including me) have seen many of them. You can go to Lahore`s markets and you will hear A.R. Rahman`s rendition of Vanda Matram blaring on the speakers (is there any place in India where I can go to hear Junoon`s rendition of Pak Sar Zameen blaring on the speakers?)

Speaking from personal experience, go to any of the remote village corners of Pakistan, and you will find two things: a mosque and an Indian video shop (which also serves English porn movies). I have never been at a military station, that did not have an Indian video shop inside the station or just outside. One had an Indian video shop right next to the mess hall. So much so, that the military pilots etc., while sitting on alert duty, to counter any attack by Indian aircraft, watch Indian movies. Many of the Pakistani war plans have been devised while listening to Lata and (in future) listening to Shawa Shawa from KKKG. Maybe the ones that worked were listening to Lata, and the ones that did not were formed while listening to shawa shawa. But the fact is at least there was open acceptance of the good. This is about as objective about the good and bad, as anyone can be.

It is not a coincidence that I can talk to my Indian colleagues for hours about topics related to India (even if I have only seen the movie versions of them), but they cannot discuss anything about Pakistan with me, other than their media-influenced tales of terrorism, religious extremism and what not in Pakistan. I feel like I am reading an Indian newspaper when I am talking with them.

So you need to give us some credit. We should definitely do more, but we have done quite a bit on our part to understand you guys and accept a lot of the good you have to offer. Now only if you could do the same.......

veeresh #36 sad but true: i had to come all the way to the US to discover dosas. we have a fine Madras Palace in our area which provides excellent masalla dosas with south indian buffet - my wife and i conduct sunday afternoon raids on these dosas and other south indian food whenever we get the chance...

tahmed 34/nazarhayatkhan35 . . . thanks. Movies, classical dance forms, yoga, meditation . . . so much of this is shared heritage . . . cooking methods, semi-joint families, middle class drawing rooms, aching for English medium schools, work ethic . . .

On dosas - most simple thing to make sa`ar. Really, there is not a single dosa-idli joint in all of Karachi / Lahore / Islamabad? That amazes me. I think chowk cafe has its menu cut out. I am sure there are enough cholle bhature/kulche types in Pakistan, the same guys can be multi-tasked with minimal effort.

(of course, they will have to wear white dhoti and kurta with blue Hawaii chappal)

veeresh #31 indian movies are only the tip of the iceberg i think. indian classical dance is much appreciated in pakistan by the cognoscenti (big word, but the right one i think :-) Yoga is another thing (great for balance i think) and so is meditation, again practiced by many (including some true blue politicians like Khar).

The first guy who opens an South Indian restaurant in pakistan will probably go laughing all the way to bank I belive. While kebabs are great, the increasingly health conscious urban well-to-do would probably go for the spicy veggies in south indian food. Masala Dosa`s, unknown within pakistan, would no doubt get instant popularity.

Veeresh # 31

It is not the tune that matters. It is a display of rebellion under the society`s norms.

I am not crazy about drinks - but I do drink in Pakistan at times - just to make a statement. I rarely have that urge when abroad - where it is a non-issue.

So it is more of a peaceful non-coperation by the silent and non-vocal majority.

rsaxena #32 getting back for the post i wrote on the Ana board above, are we? tsk! tsk!

Hi nazarhayatkhan # 30, thanks.

My point was not the Indian-ness of the movie. I was actually be mildly surprised that ANYBODY could dance to that movie, of all movies.

I have been told, more than once, especially in the pre-Internet era, by Pakistanis, in all seriousness, that Pakistanis think that we Indians really have lives which resemble Bollywood movies.

You, and other Pakistanis here, really think/thought so?

...do we really need these 5th grader articles?

Veeresh # 29

Down in the soul, the Pakistanis can comfortably find their identity only in South Asia - Middle East, Central asia, British, now American influences are only minor layers superimposed.

Therefore, the Indianness is appealing - a forced separation and physical delinking by the two states of its people have further sharpened the urge to coalse and cohabitate.

````A film theatre in Islamabad finds itself in the eye of a storm after secretly screening Bollywood blockbuster Kabhi Khushi Kabhi Gham last weekend as the audience, mostly youngsters, began dancing to its irresistible tunes, including Vande Mataram and `Sare Jahan Se Accha, Hindustan Hamara`.````

Super-flop movie here, cassettes and CDs available free, and Pakistanis are dancing to it? Have you guys lost it, totally?

I agree, Pakistan has a lot to answer for in context with the downward march.

ironman #26 actually latin started as an everyday language of the population of Latium (which was the area around Rome). As Rome expanded and conquered the rest of europe, latin spread with it. The original langauages of the french, german, spanish etc. people was replaced by latin. The language did differentiate into ``vulgar latin`` (spoken for everyday purposes by the french, spanish etc.) which later evolved into the various Romance languages (italian, spanish, french) and ``classical latin`` (the written language of virgil, cicero etc.). And Latin is indeed an important language even today, given that it became the language of science and also the works of the ancient romans served to inspire european writers for centuries later, as you say. Nevertheless, the roots of this important language are to be found in the everyday language spoken by the people of ancient Latium.

to tahmed32:

``sanskrit (to my understanding at least) was the language of the aryans, not of the locals``

Sanskrit is far too technical to be a spoken language of any laity, aryan or any other.
Most likely it was the latin of the east...an artifically evolved `higher` language for scientific/poetic expression for and by the learned.

sameerjb #32 I agree that quantity (i.e. large land area) does not mean quality (i.e. of achievement) PER SE. However, the vast geographical span of this civilization does mean (a) that it represents a significant initial step forward after the end of the neolithic era when man first came out of caves, and is at least as significant as the better understood mesopotamian civilization for example in this regard. (b) trade and standardization of weights across such a vast area across so many towns and cities does imply ``quality`` however. This is all the more remarkable if we remember that the fastest means of transport across this vast area was the camel (which had been domesticated by this civilization).

I do not consider military strength to be a measure of greatness of any civilization. At best it is a necessary evil. The lack of evidence of militarism in this civilization is I think what makes it particularly significant - there are no monuments glorifying kings like Nebuchadnazzer in mesopotamia, no frescoes of battle scenes as in ancient Rome. For 1500 towns to span the area from western India to all of Pakistan to all of Afghanistan without constant warfare going on would indicate that these people were a step ahead of us today. While no doubt force was used in this society, the emphasis seems to have been on trade.

You raise an interesting point about the trade in ideas between the IVC and mesopotamia in addition to the well-known trade in goods. In case of hammurabi though, since he lived around 1760 BC, near the end of the Indus Valley Civilization, if there was any influence it would have been of the IVC on him and his codes and not vice versa.

It is indeed interesting that there such lack of scholarly (as opposed to ideological, which in fact means the death of true scholarship) interest in these ancient civilizations in both india and pakistan. As i wrote to dost mittar, in googling the internet i found plenty of indian websites on the subject but most were devoted to polemics concerning some dravidians vs. aryans nonsense. pakistani sites were fewer, and while thankfully free of ideological bs, were very superficial and devoted to attracting tourists to moenjodaro and harappa only. However, as I mention in the article there is indeed a collaborative Pak American project started in 1986, with US professors providing the intellectual lead as well as the advanced technology needed for molecular analysis etc. in the effort, and deeper diggings at harappa have taken place as a result. So, we can only hope that one day south asians will mature enough so that ancient history becomes a matter of interest for its own sake - not a means to prove some ideological point nor indeed only for making money from tourism.

i think this is the official site, or at least the most comprehensive

http://www.harappa.com/

dost mittar #19 good to hear from you. when applying google to check out info on this subject, i too noticed the pollution (as you correctly say) of ancient Indian history on the web by all types of ideologies. i found fewer pakistani websites on the subject, and virtually all of them are from tourism companies as well as the government tourism agency (the last one was not working when i tried to access it recently). it has not become an ideological issue in pakistan till now at least, and i suspect that this is because for our ideologues (mostly the mullah crowd) history seems to begin and end in the 7th century AD.

as sameerjb notes, we have had some prominent indian and pakistani archaeologists, but not too many. For most of the work, we owe a debt to the british archeologists in the early twentieth century, and now to the american archaeologists, notably Kenoyer, who are taking the lead in further digging at the sites, and further analysis of the evidence. The pakistan archaeological department i think has done of a good job of cooperating with the american scholars and providing what they can - the authorization to investigate these sites further. so this is best for now i think - let the americans and other interested people help us understand this civilization. interestingly, in china the local archaeologists are much more active than in the subcontinent.

tahmed: The very first sentence of your article puts undue importance on area as a factor in strength of the ancient civilizations. You do mention 1500 cities, but in neolithic age, the biggest factor was number of people, which was roughly proportional to the amount of water available. The water in Nile vs. in Euphrates/ Tigris vs Yangsi (sp?) vs. Indus/ Jhelum/ Chenab/ Ravi / Sutlej/ Bias / Saraswati has to be taken into account. Since the water and therefore whole support system for our civilization adds up more than the above, the civilization was larger. After certain stage, when intelligence, military strength, trade, scripts etc were developed, the achievements could be measured in terms of achievements rather than strngth in numbers.

Indus valley did not do poorly on intelligence scale either, except that it did not produce Pharoahs or Gilgamesh or Hammurabi - mainly because trade remain most important aspect of our civilization, much like pheonicians or philistines much later. It is possible that intellectual giants were produced but haven`t been unearthed yet.

Even if Indus valley did not produce Gilgamesh or Hammurabi equivalents, they did not remain unaware of such monumental achievements and possibly benefited from mesopotamian intellectual assets. There were two major passes to enter Indian subcontinent from the west, Bolan and Khyber. Before Aryan, Scythians and Huns migrations of later times, Bolan played more important role for Indus valley civilization. Not only Balochistan soil away from Indus supports preserving remains, a whole line of settlements or cities have been excavated almost in a straight line from Bolan pass all the way to Kalibangan or many other archaeological sites in Haryana and Rajisthan. The link (both trading and ideas) between Indus valley and mesopotamian has been well established by Indian/ Pakistani/ Russian and western archaeologists based on variety of evidences from these sites, particularly of Kot Diji in Balochistan and Kalibangan in Haryana (or Rajisthan?).

It is very dobtful now that Sanskrit as well as wht we term Hindusim is entirely of Aryan origins. The language structure and some aspects of philosophy might be but Indus valley is totally absorbed and is perhaps major part of both of them. Even in 1920s, intellectuals/ historians were suggesting it. I believe Sarkar suggested 75 percent of them to be of local origins. Moreover, according to Renfrew, Aryan means a language group of proto-Indoeuropean and not race as people. One of the reason for many groups of people to trace extra subcontinental origins is victorious mentality - that they came, added value to language, religion and culture, won over local people and therefore special, superior or distinct.

Unfortunately, like the age of quality Urdu poets, the age of historians/ archaeologists/ anthropologists is in bad shape in subcontinent. The eminent historians are under great pressure from the political climate. Most well known in Pakistan A. H. Dani is either dead or too old. Same is true of one of famous Indian archaeologist, Buddha Parakash. Both happened to be graduate of Banares Hindu University and possibly colleagues. Romila Thapar is constantly being harassed by BJP just as Islamists did not like A. H. Dani. The newer breed in Pakistan is too influenced by the geopolitics, history of partition, nationalism and left/ right divide of coldwar era. While nationalist Hindus are more interested in finding native origins of everything and actually moving the center of civilization from Indus valley to dry river bed of Saraswati river to the east, their Pakistani counterparts are more interested in finding commonalities with Arabs, central Asians and Persians and appreciate extra subcontinent origins of as many people as possible, more the better. it is to their glee that they have found common cause with many Sikh Jats with pride in extra subcontinent origins - Jat being the largest single tribal identity in Pakistan. The leftists down play everything religious, culture, trade, etc and concentrate on looking everything through class struggle. They look all upper crust of the society as exploiters and the purpose of their intellectual achievement as a mean to exploit efficiently. Looking through the filter of class struggle reduces importance of achievements of a civilization and loss of objectivity.

The history of Indus valley or subcontinent deserves a comprehensive project, participated by a group of as many desi and foreign experts as possible and compiling at least for once a comprehensive treatise of several (possibly 15-20) volumes of encyclopedia Indica or History of subcontinent - well written objectively, well printed in China or Singapore on quality paper, well binding and available on CD-ROM also. We need to have a common comprehensive source to look into, instead of finding bits and pieces from various sources. If I had 10 million dollars to spend today, this is the project I would like to spend before anything else.

UNCLE IS LISTENING,

At last my uncle sam has listened to my harangue on the k for kafir education in pakistan, the pak sylabus that requires students to identify hindus etc. Following is from jang of today, Uncle has asked questions to mushy. This situation is a disgrace to any pakistani, voice of an indian is heard, and the pak sylabus is under threat, the world view that has guided so many pakistanis for the last 50 years.

``The spokesman categorically ruled out any interference by the US as far as setting the syllabus in Pakistani educational institutions and Madaris was concerned. He said the syllabus would be decided by experts and scholars and not anyone else.

President Musharraf had told President George Bush that there should be no micro management and it will be Pakistan`s discretion as far as educational matters are concerned. The spokesman ruled out any conditions put by the US regarding economical assistance was concerned.``//////

A nation that wants honourable settlement of kashmir has to undergo the humiliation of its educational system attacked by a kafir.

nazar #16 you write ``After you visit the Lahore museum and go 30 miles outside Lahore, it is the same museum all over - bullock carts, donkeys carrying fodder, earthen pitchers, lighting fire, cattle and so on. ``

LOL. And sadly true. i think it is humbling to see that 4000 - 6000 years ago people were more progressive in terms of improving their living conditions (from caves to well planned towns) than has been the case over the past 2000 years it seems.

jay #18 thanks for your views.

Tauheed Saheb:
Looks like the chowk heard your complaint. Now I hope we will also see godot`s article so we have fewer grumpy chowkies:-).
I am glad you have initiated a discussion of a topic which should attract greater attention, especially among Pakistanis. As you have said, more discoveries are being made all the time, especially in India, which are expanding the frontiers of the Indus Valley civilization all the way to Haryana and Gujrat.
As others have suggested, greater coordination between Indian and Pakistani archaelogists will be quite useful. However, there are also downsides to such a cooperation. The research in this area in India is quite polluted with ideology and the researchers are divided into two bitterly hostile groups. In one corner are the venerable orientalists, marxists and secularists (pseudo-secularists to their detractors!) who are committed to the theory of the aryan invaders whose invasion destroyed the civilisations represented by Mahenjodoro and Harrapa. In the opposite corner are the hindutvavadis who are out to prove that there was no invasion of aryans and that the civilization declined due to natural causes. To an interested layman like me, it looks like that ancient history is more art than science. Both sides are working with 50 or so pieces of a 1000-piece jigsaw puzzle and are using their imagination about the missing 950 pieces to create a story to their liking. I hope that the Pakistani researchers stay clear of this controversy and concentrate instead on finding out more pieces of the jigsaw than of creating a story out of them.

TOADS AND CHOWK

Every morning I swallow a live toad so that i donot come across anything more revolting rest of the day. Today is a bad day, i did come across this article more revolting than the morning ritual.

It is revolting to see the pakistanis taking pride in harappa, ready to accept its existance. The author is the most pathetic, in his attempt to wjitewash pakistan, did not dare to mention,
Pakistan has refused to list harappa in the UNESCO world heritage list because the place is of strategic military importance and cannot allow foreigners to crawl over it to restore it. That was a decision by the very own dog loving ataturk worshipping mushy, a few months ago.

It is diplorable that no pakistani dared to mention the reality, the truth, and what exactly the majority feel about harappa.

Inquirer #1 Good to hear from you. It would indeed be nice if india and pakistan cooperated more in learning about the rich past of this part of the world. For now, it is thanks basically to the western scholars that we know what little we know about this great civilization. Indeed, the story does not begin even with this great civilization. Indeed, the mounds at Mahar Garh in Baluchistan are considered to represent an even earlier civilization, one that goes back right to the dawn of civilization for mankind in the neolithic period 6-8 thousand years BC. This is the period when man first came out of the stone age and settled in villages, domesticated animals, and started raising crops.

temporal #2 you write ``What did they do right?`` Good question. One thing is for sure: they did not glorify the past - since then they would never have left the caves.

Maharana #3 I think the major river you refer to is mentioned in the rig veda as the river Saravasti. This is the river that changed course and is currently considered as having caused this civilization to start its period of decay. It is indeed impressive that these ancient people developed a kind of an EU in an area that stretched all the way to rajasthan to the south east, complete with standardized weights and basic town planning standards.

SR #4 Glad you liked the article. If you are interested in a more in depth look at the subject, there is a fascinating article in the Scientific American for June 2003 on the subject by Professor Kenoyer. Much of the new information (e.g. the roots of the sung festival in present day pakistan in the indus valley civilization, the discovery of kilns, and so forth) that i mention in this article was uncovered by him as part of the collaboration between his university and the pakistan archaeological department. He provides an in depth write-up on how the kilns worked, and how he actually replicated it. He also maintains a website (you can get it easily via google) on the subject.

Others: Thanks for writing. I shall try to respond soon after i have read your posts.

_digit #7 for more on these findings taking place nowadays, check out the article i mention to SR below. The author (Kenoyer) is actively working with the pakistan archaeological dept to get a lot of new digging done. What i found particularly fascinating was the roots of todays festivals being traced all the way back to that civilization...

sameerjb #5 glad you got interested in this subject... on your comments:

1. actually this civilization predates the aryan invasions. sanskrit (to my understanding at least) was the language of the aryans, not of the locals. what may have happened (and this is speculation on my part) is that the language of these people may have mingled with the language spoken by aryans, and sanskrit may well be an amalgam of the two languages. but...this is just uneducated speculation on my part.
your point about their writing relating to religion is not supported by current archaeologists i think: the context of these writings (on merchants` seals etc.) seem to indicate that writing arose as a means to track commercial transactions and property ownership. much like the cuneiform writing arose in the fertile crescent.

2. you are right on the danger to these ancient monuments from water. in fact, i understand that moenjodaro is under threat of water logging and attempts are being made with the help of UN funding to protect it. it is indeed important that we preserve these ancient sites till such time that pakistan is a better developed country and more able to preserve its rich history which it owes in fact to all mankind.

3. it is indeed true that we need to be better aware of our rich past. what i find interesting is that you will find replicas of the famous dancing girl figurine from moenjodaro, or the famous merchant seals, in many well-to-do pakistani homes. this shows that people do take a lot of pride in the rich past of this area.

veeresh #8 maybe we did not go wrong at all...we just took the more scenic route.... ;-)

Tauheed

A extremely interesting theme. Thanks.

Jinnah should have asked for the freedom of Indus Valley from the Raj. We would have been better of. (rename Pakistan Indus Valley)

It is still the same old valley. After you visit the Lahore museum and go 30 miles outside Lahore, it is the same museum all over - bullock carts, donkeys carrying fodder, earthen pitchers, lighting fire, cattle and so on.

Maybe the sewarge, water supply and education is worst than those days.

Romair #9 i dont think we have any pakistani anthropologists on the cutting edge at least. All the cutting edge work on the civilization seems to be done by american university professors nowadays, athough the Pak American project is indeed a joint project and there is plenty of support provided by pakistanis.

Fascinating stuff. Some more links I got from a quick`n dirty google:

http://www.itihaas.com/ancient/harappa1.html
http://campus.northpark.edu/history/WebChron/India/Harappa.html

Hopefully the author will add/post references for follow-up reading (hint-hint :-) )

Also, as an aside, I hope people really don`t try to link modern Pakistan with the IVC. It`s pathetic. So don`t. The fact that major IVC sites lie within Pakistan is a geographical coincidence. Attempting to make it a part of a national Pakistani ``identity`` is silly...

When did we go wrong on the sub-Continent?

Always.

Where did we go wrong on the sub-Continent?

Somewhere between the Ganga and Indus.

++

What little I know about the ways of the world, I think where we went wrong is that we became comfortable as a people and dazzled by our own brilliance, and everybody became nobility or feudals. Therein our brilliance gene got transformed into khetti-baadee gene. For example, if we were smarter, we would have demanded 30 years ago that Iraqi troops be sent on Saudi expense into Ireland, after Indian and Pakistani Coalition armies had searched County Antrim for WMD and found only potatoes.

++

Trying to make a statement about the glories of ancient Pakistan/India aka Hind aka Indus Valley Civilisation aka modern day Taxila is like trying to define the joys & benefits of blueberry or Bailey`s Irish Cream cheesecake after a whisky soaked egg fried steak with fried onions to a patient in an ICCU.

tahmad/SameerJB: Interesting articles/comments.

Aitezaz Ahsan of PPP fame, has written, ``The Indus Saga`` on the history of the Indus civilization. He covers a large timeframe, so he doesn`t go into too much detail on each phase. But it is the most interesting book I have read on this subject so far.

I saw a British TV program where a historian followed the exact path followed by Alexander, in the exact same way, he thought Alexander followed it, i.e walking, camels etc. He went through Jehlum, Multan, down around Pasni etc. Obviously not the Harrapa days, but it was interesting, just the same.

Pakistan could be an anthropologist`s dream. However, I haven`t heard of any major Pakistani anthropologists. Do you two know of any?

Not much research has been done on Indus because `ancient pakistan` was `ancient India`. Indus would have more to do with the idols, figurines and shapes, dances, rudra etc..all this making it a civiliation from which the hindu culture came.

And for the last 50 year this ancient india has been totally Islamic.. with a religion introduced from outside. So any association with Indus would be associating with indian/hindu..all this is too conflicting for paksitanis who vow total affinity to only Islam

Well..to totally possess the Indus civilisation as their very own pakistani...now Pakistanis will try to prove Indus had nothing to do with Hinduism

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Good brief introduction to start a discussion though I wished tahmed had added some hisotrical information or data for those who just read the article and do not interact. Every little attention from the customers (readers and interacotrs) should be sought in exchange for giving them some information or inspire thinking. I also thank SR for referencing one of my earlier articles dating back to good old gathering of open minds.

Few quick comments:
1) The term ``unable to decipher`` somehow gives wrong impression of people speaking something totally different or gibberish at that time. That is totally false. More likely they spoke languages with many common words with current languages and Sanskrit. In those days, writing meant differnt than now. Writing was always very abstract, be it in cuneiform or heiroglyphics. The purpose of writing was to record most important things with least effort. It had no use for public in their daily life. The scripts were developed by local priests to express few things only. As Maharana pointed out about ``no palaces or political heirarchy existed`` meant no need for script and script lacked far behind with no effort to standardize it. That is why it is decipherable. The decipherable jalebi might be equivalrnt to pronouncing maaN, baap, pani or any common used terms.

2) Unfortunately we have only few excavations. The reason is more than just lack of interest. The soil around 1000 miles log and as much as 600 miles wide core civilization is too wet, high water table, monsoon rains and rivers overflowing giving rise to floods. These are not the best of conditions to preserve and calcify artefacts and organic remains. Mohenjo Daro and Harrapa survived for being at higher elevation than surroundings. All across the lengths of rivers in Indus valley many mounds are present, just as Maharana mentioned around Jaipur. These mounds are certainly the remains of ancient settlements. In Panjab, suffix ``Tibbas`` is used with the name of these mounds. The names of some of the tibbas are neither Muslim, nor Hindu, nor Sikh, nor local languages, nor tribal castes and nor Sanskrit. Nobody knows how and when these tibbas were named. But it certainly gives some credence to a continuation of socio-cultural heritage without a major fissure.

3) While Haroon Mughal type feelings for extra-Indus heritage are on the rise in Pakistan but so is the awareness of ``our`` heritage. Many educated people are becoming aware of this chapter of history although our textbooks still lack in giving due importance to this part of our ancestoral history and heritage. Still not a single big or small road is named after Mohenjo-Daro or Harrapa in Islamabad, and perhaps not in Karachi or Lahore either. These two words should have been widely in use for both public and private sector. They are better than MB Qasim, Ghaznavi, Ghauri, Abdali in many ways.
Once I was reading something about NS and I thought one of his property was written as Harrapa Textile Mills but when I looked carefully - too bad - it was Hudaybia Textile Mills.

temporal:
It is wrong to ask ``what went wrong?`` for something which possibly still is in existance as adaptations except (big except) that we are scared of crediting it, lest it might compete with the heavenly one for our heritage ad upsetting him. Moreover, the broze age or early neolithic age civilizations were not likely to survive in the iron age. It is part of our evolution of last 10 thousands or so years. Many of the current ``civilizations``, people are dying for are also not going to last in future. They will be history in due time just as previous have been.

Great subject matter. People of the region should be made more aware of their ancient heritage than is presently the case.

Here at Chowk there have, in the past, been two very good articles followed by lively discussions. For those who are interested in the subject matter I would recommend looking them up. Back then more people wrote thoughtful posts and pissing matches or Pak-Bharat dushmani arguments were a rare irritant. The two articles were:


Max Muller’s Ghost by Asim

http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00000200&channel=university%20ave&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1

and an even better researched article than the one above was:

Arguments Against Aryan Invasion Theory by Sameer

http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00000887&channel=university%20ave&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1


Interestingly even back then, in the discussion that followed this second article our dear friend Urstruly brought up the math inductive model in the context of calculating the number of Syeds in the subcontinent 1400 years after Mohammed. His argument, was the exact same one as he presented recently in one of the discussions here... somethings never change. :) However, please don`t let that turn you off. It was a very minor digression.

...SR

TAhmed,
Good introduction to Indus valley civilzation.
Apart from the geographical span of this civilization, its most unique aspect is the absence of any palace of a King or central authority of every city. It seems to have been governed by plutocracy as per available evidence.
On another note, I come from Udaipur which is southern Rajasthan. Very near to my home are huge grass covered mounds which have been excavated to reveal yet another city, called Ahaar (named after a dried up tributary, which comes to life only during monsoons). As per remote sensing data, Ahaar was a tributary of the major river, on the banks of which are found all the major cities of indua valley civilization.
A small museum displays all the artifacts uncovered so far. The site gives evidence to some of the earliest forms of worshipping Rudra ( Vedic name of Shiva). The same has been found in a lot of other sites of Indus valley too.

Adios

Tauheed:

amazing and mind boggling...even 2000 years ago, per capita they had more toilets than we have in the sub-continent today...

two related queries:

1: what did they do right?
2: where did we go wrong? (hint: defence spending will not be considered the right answer)

rgds,

t

(ps for veeru: subcontinent was inserted just for your pleasure...otherwise indus valley would have sufficed;))

Tauheed:
It is fitting that this cultured article is initiated by you. Yes Mohan jo-Daro and Harrappa civilization has been least researched and analyzed. I look forward to intensive and extensive work that would arise if India and Pakistan can develop a via media for cooperative functioning. We have difficult problems and need considerable renormalization to use a mathematical term but I feel that pretty soon we shall overcome the bigotted on both sides of the boundary.